New Debate :Israel vs Palestine/Arab States

[Kush]

Very well said goaliejerry.

The only thing I have to add to this debate is that we tend to talk about this whole conflict using words to describe people. Words like Isreali, Palestinian, terrorist, soldier. But those people are also, husbands, wives, sisters, brothers.

I have friends who are Jewish. I have friends who are muslim. One who is Palestinian. Some have family who are directly involved in the conflict. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what side they're on, what religion they practise, if a family member dies, in whatever fashion, it's a personal loss.

One day, the people of that region will have to learn how not to hate.

It's that simple.

Treaty's can be signed. Words can be spoken. But only once people honestly learn to put away their hate, and move forward, can the problem find a solution.

[Steve Schacher]

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It doesn't matter whether Israel is defending itself or not, it is still fighting terrorism with terrorism.

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I would call that a measured response. It is important to note that Israel didn't start out with the nukes, but rather, with border patrols. They didn't start out with incursions into Palestinian territory after the first or the second bombing. They started with tighter border checkpoints until the suicide bombers were getting caught and blowing up themselves and the guards at the checkpoints. Then, after the third or fourth bomber, did the Israelis move into Palestinian territory to cut off Arafat.

Maybe others would have a stronger point if Israel "carpet bombed" Palestine, but they didn't. Sure, a few fighter jets destroyed bunkers and offices, but they stayed away from civilian centers. The tanks came in later.

[goaliejerry]

The paradox here is that the few Palestinians who blow themselves up and fight with Isrealis, and assuradly not all palestinians elect to fight, bring the hardships on thier own people. They fight for betterment of their cause, actually worsening their plight, yet are still revered by their people despite the fact that they are causing Isreali incursions to increase! It never ceases to amaze me....

[Kush]

It's like any drug.

Hatred is like a drug. It kills you. It eats away at the cells in your body. The pleasure it gives slowly starts to dissipate, and so you try to get back the same sensation with more and more hatred, until you destroy yourself and many many things that you love around you.

[dsweet]

When Germany invaded Poland, civilian areas (cities) were the targets of attacks. This was done to drive masses of people into the streets to clog the infrastructure and slow the response of the Polish military.

[Steve Schacher]

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When Germany invaded Poland, civilian areas (cities) were the targets of attacks. This was done to drive masses of people into the streets to clog the infrastructure and slow the response of the Polish military.

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Elaborate, please.

Which side is Germany and which side is Poland? Whom do you think is using this as a precursor of invasion?

[Sunanta]

The Palestinians deliberately attack civilians with the intent of coercing the Israeli government to submit to their demands (however reasonable or unreasonable; that is outside the scope of this post). That is not acceptable in wartime. Israel deliberately attack combatants with the intent of inhibiting Palestinian violence. That is acceptable in wartime. Though Israeli methods may be excessive, even negligently so, they do not seek to kill civilians. Israel seeks to end the violence and solve their predicament diplomatically (in their favor, of course). The Palestinians also seek to solve the situation, but are not averse to targeting civilians in an attempt to expedite the process. If it is intention that is the deciding factor in morality, the Palestinians are in the inferior position because they intend to kill civilians. Whether they succeed or not is important, but not as important as the intention. While Israel is certainly not free from blame because of its aggresive colonization of its conquests and aforementioned arguably negligent actions, it does not seek to kill civilians. If end up doing so, it is still wrong, but not as wrong as if they sought to do so. Manslaughter and theft are lesser crimes than murder.

[ 04-09-2002, 01:26: Message edited by: Sunanta ]

[Kush]

The idea that it is immoral to intentionally kill civilians in a state of war is a pretty new concept. Most nations have done so at one point in time or another. (Canada has. So has America, Britain, France, Germany, Nigeria, China, the list goes on.) To say that the palestinians are somehow slightly more immoral than the Isreali military is an act of sophistry.

At this point, morality is not important. Getting the two sides to a ceasefire is important. Resuming talks about Jerusalem is important. If you sympathize with Isreal, they will always have the moral high ground. If you sympathize with Palestinians, they will always have the moral high ground. If you care about a lasting peace in the region, then you have to put talk of morality aside and prepare to do the hard work of negotiating a lasting peace.

[Guest $iLk]

Great article:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomass...s20020409.shtml

[dsweet]

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When Germany invaded Poland, civilian areas (cities) were the targets of attacks. This was done to drive masses of people into the streets to clog the infrastructure and slow the response of the Polish military.

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This was in response to the earlier comment that Britain originally started the bombing of civilian targets (cities).

I believe the Germans used this tactic against Poland before Britain ever started bombing German targets.

It was not an attempt to compare the current conflict to that of WWII.

[Soback]

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Originally posted by Kush:

The idea that it is immoral to intentionally kill civilians in a state of war is a pretty new concept. Most nations have done so at one point in time or another. (Canada has. So has America, Britain, France, Germany, Nigeria, China, the list goes on.) To say that the palestinians are somehow slightly more immoral than the Isreali military is an act of sophistry.

At this point, morality is not important. Getting the two sides to a ceasefire is important. Resuming talks about Jerusalem is important. If you sympathize with Isreal, they will always have the moral high ground. If you sympathize with Palestinians, they will always have the moral high ground. If you care about a lasting peace in the region, then you have to put talk of morality aside and prepare to do the hard work of negotiating a lasting peace.

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Well, if there is a state of war, then I guess the "ocupied territories" are not ocupied anymore. Israel has got them through war, and thus that land belongs to Israel. What the hell is everyone screaming about then? Since it's Israels land then it can do pretty much whatever it wants there, from now on the terrorist sweeps and such are their internal affairs.

Oh yea, I forgot. It's not fair to defend yourself, capture land, and then keep it.No, no no, when someone goes to war with you, and you kick them back a hunderdfold, take their land, then in the end the land should be given back and a declaration of "Lets start over" should be signed.

(and for those who want Israel to give the land back and "start over", note that the last paragraph is HEAVY on sarcasm)

[Guest]

You got that right on the NOSE Soback.

This is NOT occupied Palestinian land. This is Israels land, they won it fair and square, the Palestinians just happen to live there. If they don't like what Israel is doing, maybe they should go home to Jordan, Syria, etc, ad nauseum.

Israel owns that land, the only reason that they do not annex it is because then the Palestinians become citizens and will destroy the country from within, instead of trying to destroy it from without.

The Palestinians CAN live in peace, IF THEY WANT TO, so far they have shown NO wanting to live in peace. Barak offered the Palestinians 96% of what they wanted, and Arafat said no, and started this little terrorist campaign to get more concessions. You reward terrorism and ALL you will get is MORE terrorism. Terrorism must be DESTROYED wherever it pops up it's head, and if civilians that support those terrorists are killed in the process, well, you won't see me crying for them.

[aramike]

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The Palestinians CAN live in peace, IF THEY WANT TO, so far they have shown NO wanting to live in peace. Barak offered the Palestinians 96% of what they wanted, and Arafat said no, and started this little terrorist campaign to get more concessions.

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I agree with you 100%, Jaugar. Just wanted to clear things up for all fairness: Barak did not offer the Palestinians 96% of what they wanted. It was more like 50%. Barak drew a certain line across the West Bank and then said they could have 96% of the REMAINING land.

But in my opinion, Barak shouldn't have offered them squat.

[Menchise]

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I would call that a measured response.

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Measured or not, it's still fighting terrorism with terrorism.

I'm sticking with my previous post.

[Steve Schacher]

I don't think that what the Israeli's are doing is terrorism. What makes it terrorism is the unexpected suddenness of it, not just the fact that it is targeting civilians.

Everyone knows that the Israeli's are there. Everyone knows what they are trying to do. Sure, it must be terrifying to be amongst it, but that doesn't make it terrorism.

When you can see the tanks coming; when you can hear the planes flying, when you're warned by the army that a facility is being targeted, then it's not terrorism. But when you see a child strolling down the street, and then suddenly the street is in shambles with dead all around you, then it's terrorism.

[Kush]

If Rabin were alive today, this thread wouldn't exist.

[Põdi]

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Originally posted by Kush:

If Rabin were alive today, this thread wouldn't exist.

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That is so, so true.

I honestly thought that he and Arafat had a good understanding and rapore. I could see an eventual end to all the problems, until an Israeli terrorist put an end to it. The sole act of a madman put the whole process back decades.

And for those that say that Israel should keep the West Bank because they won it in the war?

Oh please! That is such a Medieval concept! This is not a competition, it is life and death.

Let's put a scenario forward; you and your family have inhabited a region for 100s of years, then an international organisation allows another people to inhabit your land in their 1000s because they say they have a God-given right to do so. They come in and set up a Government and declare the land for themselves, to be governed by themselves. They take the most furtile areas and force you into ghettos. How the hell would YOU feel?

I will never rocognise the State of Israel as it stands, it is a false democracy, run by European bigots

[Menchise]

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I don't think that what the Israeli's are doing is terrorism. What makes it terrorism is the unexpected suddenness of it, not just the fact that it is targeting civilians.

Everyone knows that the Israeli's are there. Everyone knows what they are trying to do. Sure, it must be terrifying to be amongst it, but that doesn't make it terrorism.

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The East Timorese knew that the Indonesian military was slaughtering their people whenever they assembled in protest. Does that mean that the Dili Massacre was not an act of terrorism?

Disclaimer: I am not comparing East Timor to Palestine. I am just pointing out the flaw in the belief that anyone who "calls ahead" is not a terrorist.

[Kush]

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Originally posted by Paddy Gregory:

How the hell would YOU feel?

I will never rocognise the State of Israel as it stands, it is a false democracy, run by European bigots[/QB]

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So is Canada. As a Canadian I would be a hypocrit to criticize Isreal for doing exactly what we did centuries ago.

And I would be a hypocrit to criticize the palestinians for doing what we have done to First Nation peoples. (We didn't use suicide bombing, but our tactics in dealing with tribes like the Beothuks were those of terror, and succeeded in exterminating them from the earth)

The state of Israel will exist. It should exist. If WW2 hadn't happened, it would not need to exist. If there was less anti semitism in the world as a whole, it wouldn't need to exist. Israel exists, and both sides need to recognize that if they are ever to live in peace together, they must learn to see each other as human beings.

[Steve Schacher]

Watch Lebanon by Charles Krauthammer.

[Soback]

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Originally posted by Paddy Gregory:

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Originally posted by Kush:

If Rabin were alive today, this thread wouldn't exist.

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And for those that say that Israel should keep the West Bank because they won it in the war?

Oh please! That is such a Medieval concept! This is not a competition, it is life and death.

Let's put a scenario forward; you and your family have inhabited a region for 100s of years, then an international organisation allows another people to inhabit your land in their 1000s because they say they have a God-given right to do so. They come in and set up a Government and declare the land for themselves, to be governed by themselves. They take the most furtile areas and force you into ghettos. How the hell would YOU feel?

I will never rocognise the State of Israel as it stands, it is a false democracy, run by European bigots

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So, then I take it you don't recognize US either?

[ 04-10-2002, 16:06: Message edited by: Soback ]

[Soback]

By the way Paddy Gregory, that's how the world evolves. Weaker die off, stronger survive. I don't understand these socialistic/liberatarian concepts where the strong have to cater to the weak, making themselves weaker in the process. Have you been to Israel? Have you seen what they have done with that land in 50 years they have lived there? It's an oasis in the desert. The arabs had that land for thousands of years and their countries are still a desert, but only because of the British you have derricks sticking out of that sand, (what you think they thought of how to pump oil all by themselves?)

And just to explain to you my post above this one (some people need a little extra explaining so that they won't twist the words to suit their purpose) US populated the land that belonged to the Indians. It took it and transformed it into one of the best countries in the world. So, why don't we just pick ourselves up and give it back to the Indians now?

Israel was given the land it has now. The arab countries invaded it in hopes of destroying them, but Israel fought back and pushed the arabs back farther and farther, and now everyone is saying that Israel should give the land back to the arabs? Yeah, right.

And one more thing. I went to Golden Gate park in SF this weekend. On the way there palestines and other arabs were having a demonstration protesting Israeli "occupation". About 1,000 people piled up 2 blocks on both sides of the road and on the middle divider. You wouldn't believe they way they behaved. Running across the road all the time, whistling, making those stupid noises with their tangs, some of them got into their cars, were pulling up to the light and not letting anyone pass when the light turned green. Like savages. And I just got a flashback, they behaved exactly like that when the twin towers went down. So I put down my roof. Stuck up both my hands and extended the middle fingers. Thank GOD for free speech.

[Guest Grayfox]

the only way any of this crap is going to stop is extermination... either the palestines will completely wipe out the israeli state (like theyve been trying to do) or israel will finally drop the kid gloves and just wipe the palestines off the face of the earth.

america should just stay out of it. no pressure or anything, just stand aside and let events unfold.

[ 04-10-2002, 19:22: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

[Steve Schacher]

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take the most furtile areas and force you into ghettos.

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Someone remind me, again.

Israel didn't take the most fertile areas, they developed the area they got. They irrigated it, developed it, and turned it into what it is today. Now that it's an oasis in the region, the others want it.

[Menchise]

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Watch Lebanon by Charles Krauthammer.

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That article proves my point (which was refined by Steve) that terrorism has nothing to do with the weapons used.

Hezbollah used suicide attacks against US Marines and Israeli troops during the occupation of Lebanon. Now that they have their hands on military grade weapons (the 9000 rockets that they're firing on Northern Israel), their suicide attacks have stopped.

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By the way Paddy Gregory, that's how the world evolves. Weaker die off, stronger survive.

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Our world evolves the way we let or make it evolve. This is not the Animal Kingdom, it's Human Civilization. We have consciousness and the ability to change the environment around us to suit our needs or wants. Unlike the animals, there is no concrete path for us. Animals are incapable of helping the weak unless it is an inherent instinct (i.e. when a mother protects its offspring), because they cannot consciously conceive it. Human beings are capable of recognizing the value of life even when it's supposedly weak.

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I don't understand these socialistic/liberatarian concepts where the strong have to cater to the weak, making themselves weaker in the process.

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Wait fifty years and you'll probably recognize the hypocrisy in that statement.

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Have you been to Israel? Have you seen what they have done with that land in 50 years they have lived there? It's an oasis in the desert. The arabs had that land for thousands of years and their countries are still a desert

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Yes, the Arabs have lived in a desert for thousands of years, survived, and flourished. That doesn't sound weak to me.

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only because of the British you have derricks sticking out of that sand, (what you think they thought of how to pump oil all by themselves?)

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Ahh, so you define a civilization's worthiness by their ability to exploit resources. Sorry Soback, that doesn't mean squat. A civilization's ability to exploit large volumes of resources only indicates their level of dependence on such resources.

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Israel was given the land it has now. The arab countries invaded it in hopes of destroying them, but Israel fought back and pushed the arabs back farther and farther, and now everyone is saying that Israel should give the land back to the arabs?

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I don't think that anyone should own land.