Commander Jamont Report post Posted May 6, 2002 I feel sad and mad at the same time read this http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/05/06...ting/index.html [ 05-06-2002, 15:49: Message edited by: Commander Jamont ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Commander Jamont Report post Posted May 6, 2002 Where is holland going when you cant even say your word without getting shot i just can't believe it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soback Report post Posted May 6, 2002 Yeah, that's socialism for you. They don't like what you got to say, they shut you up either with their "You are offending us" quote or ANY other way they can. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Commander Jamont Report post Posted May 6, 2002 But why? why here Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Soback Report post Posted May 6, 2002 The really sad part is, that guy was going to win the elections. Look at the polls if you don't believe me, he won those by a landslide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mano Faber Report post Posted May 6, 2002 More like shocked. Didn't think it would happen here , politicians getting shot that is. Even though i would never vote for him, no one deserves to be killed like this. This is bad for our democracy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Commander Jamont Report post Posted May 6, 2002 Today democracy is killed in the netherlands Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gryphon Report post Posted May 6, 2002 Isn't this political situation similar to what recently happened in France? A right winger comes close to winning? Is this going to be a recurring theme in the years to come? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mano Faber Report post Posted May 7, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Gryphon: Isn't this political situation similar to what recently happened in France? A right winger comes close to winning? Is this going to be a recurring theme in the years to come?I think the guardian described him pretty good. "All of this helped sustain his argument that he was closer to politicians like Edmund Stoiber, the hard right contender for the German chancellorship, than to naked racists such as Jean-Marie Le Pen and J├Ârg Haider. Indeed, he would erupt when interviewers made what he denounced as "odious" comparisons." http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st...,710992,00.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Põdi Report post Posted May 7, 2002 I don't know much about Fortuyn, but he seemed closer to the British Conservatives than to the likes of Le Pen. Talking of Haider, I wonder what the hell he's doing in Baghdad at the moment? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Commander Jamont Report post Posted May 7, 2002 Fortuyn was the first one to speak about the migration problem in the netherlands Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
emphy Report post Posted May 7, 2002 two things: Fortuyn was NOT the first to point to immigration problems in the Netherlands. (CD, Bolkenstijn, and even the socialist party) Unlike what some of the extreme anti-socialists in the US believe socialists here in the Netherlands (or in Europe) in general talk things over (in a debate, as in any democracy). Not one socialist told to Pim Fortuyn "you are offending us", but said "I disagree, because...." Blaming socialism is like blaming kapitalism for Nazi's actions in WOII. [ 05-07-2002, 08:43: Message edited by: emphy ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Commander Jamont Report post Posted May 7, 2002 Bolkenstijn had only words not deeds.. the left party's and the media gave fortuyn a bad name and thats what killed him He was the man who would finaly do something about it and not only talk about it like bolkenstijn Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lotharr Report post Posted May 7, 2002 Not all Americans believe in capitalism.....but we are living so good the people don't really care....I think one day they will. If anything our country has set the standard in killing good leaders. MLK Jr and Kennedy (both) had the ability to change the world... You give em' hell Emphy! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Commander Jamont Report post Posted May 7, 2002 But Emphy Says the party he/she mentions only SAY things not DO them ... thats the problem with most partys in holland.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kush Report post Posted May 7, 2002 It's so sad. I'm visiting the Netherlands next month. I never in a million years would have thought something like this would happen in such an advanced peaceful nation. It makes no sense at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
emphy Report post Posted May 7, 2002 Ok fellow Dutchmen, this may hurt: Fortuyn for some years has been an advisor to different governments, including the current purple one, many things he criticized he has been partly responsible for. Fortuyn also has been only words, for the most part repeating a mix of Bolkenstijn, Janmaat, Rosenmuller, with a pinch of Marijnissen. It is extremely naive to think Fortuyn would be any different. True he has not had a chance to prove himself, but that is also the case with groen links and SP. Fortuyn's 'solutions' included, but was not limited to: refusing political asylum, annihilating work security, freezing government spending on hospitals, schools and care centers, slashing development aid and denying any environmental problems. (By the way, I don't call halving the number of asylum seekers in the Netherlands no action, the numbers are still falling as you read.) Contrary to popular believe, the purple government also has done good things, in general have not made a mess of things, and have passed legislations which future governments will profit enormously from. (read the economist) Things DO get done here. I really hate the anti-left atmosphere which has been created by the LPF lately. Of the three left parties in parliament only two have demonized him. (in case you didn't know: PvdA and groen links) This also was a reaction, mostly, to Fortuyn himself, calling Islam backwards, health minister Els Borst worse than Bin Laden, and so on. The rest have been the central party D66, or even the right VVD. (guess who I'm voting for) Media did not give him a bad name: his succes was largely due to rediculous media attention. He has been critizised like any other politician, yet I don't see any of the others shot. (not entirely true, but I think you should see my point) Also, it has not been determined yet if the name-calling by GL, PvdA, D66, and VVD (as you see, from left to right, NOT only left, and not all left or right parties) had any connection with the killing. Accusing anyone before determining wether it's true or not is midieval. [ 05-07-2002, 19:02: Message edited by: emphy ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Commander Jamont Report post Posted May 8, 2002 Look i dont say he is right at everything he has said ... but some points he was right. the main thing about this topic is not the discussion about politics , but that someone got killed for saying there opinion .. so bugger off Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peterkist Report post Posted May 8, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Commander Jamont: the main thing about this topic is not the discussion about politics , but that someone got killed for saying there opinion .. so bugger offI agree 100% it is not about him being right or wrong. The suspect is rumoured to be a environmental activist, who supposedly acted because Fortuyn planned to legalize fox-farms (don't know the correct word ) where foxes are bred for their fur. Such a reason simply is to ridiculous for words... Anyway, there are strong indications that the suspect really is the person they are looking for, so all cautious wording probably gets clearer in the near future. It's a black day for democracy indeed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Grayfox Report post Posted May 8, 2002 theres always one in the crowd that has to turn EVERYTHING into a political statement or issue. yes its a shame that someone got killed for voicing their opinion... it shouldnt friggin matter that he was a politician, his life was taken prematurely by an act of hatred... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
emphy Report post Posted May 9, 2002 One of my points is precisely that you don't know yet if he was killed for his opinion. For all you know the killer was a psychopath who was out to kill the one person who has had the most media attention in the Netherlands in the last few weeks. (which, IMHO is also very bad) Now a lot of hatred is being directed at the left parties, courtesy of the LPF (and despite that right parties have also used wording as strong or stronger), just because they didn't agree with him. [ 05-09-2002, 07:48: Message edited by: emphy ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
