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Terrorist attack in Israel


Soback
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Terrorist attack in Israel killed 17, and injured 50. Israel army is moving towards yasas residence. Also they retaliated by firing on known terrorists. Let's see how a second siege on arafat turns out.

Also, something to thing about, 17 killed, 50 injured = all civilians. Israel army retaliated and fired on terrorists (not civilians).

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Oh, so instead of maybe letting out the civillians out of the bus and then fighting the soilders or attacking some military base, they figured why not, let's blow up civillians along with the soilders, hey they are all Jewish after all.

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"In fact, if you look at the trend, they specifically aim for women and kids."

I don't see that trend, when civilians are targeted they are aiming indiscriminately.

You people are so self-righteous, Don't you think

someones morals might degrade a bit after 30 years of occupation? It is very easy to stand there at the other end of the world being protected by the greatest army telling other peoples how to conduct their struggle for independence.

[ 06-07-2002, 18:50: Message edited by: emphy ]

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quote:

I don't see that trend, when civilians are targeted they are aiming indiscriminately.

Civilians are pretty much always targeted, and I have to agree with Soback, they do target women and children. ItÔÇÖs not a lack of discrimination, or stupidity, or even bad vision, killing women and children tends to cause a bigger commotion, thus more terror and all that rot. ItÔÇÖs rather the point of being a terrorist.

quote:

You people are so self-righteous, Don't you think

someones morals might degrade a bit after 30 years of occupation? It is very easy to stand there at the other end of the world being protected by the greatest army telling other peoples how to conduct their struggle for independence.

As a matter of fact it is, but that has nothing to do with it. Their morals havenÔÇÖt degraded because of occupation, but rather because of their yahoo religion and the crap that is dumped over their media. Furthermore, what there fighting for isnÔÇÖt independence so much as it is the extermination of the Jews.

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

You people are so self-righteous, Don't you think

someones morals might degrade a bit after 30 years of occupation?

Ya right and just who owned all that land during the time of the Roman empire? The Israeli people did. Their state consisted of all the land from the river jordan to the sea.

It wasn't until after the year 70 A.D when the Romans sacked the second temple. Then drove the israelis off the land scattering them all around the world. Soon after the arabs moved in and claimed the land for their own and they've been squating on it ever since.

It wasn't until after WW2 in 1948 that the Israelis had enough support from the world community to reclaim their land. They've been fighting the Arab squaters ever since. The only just and logical solution to this is to drive the Palestinians off of Israeli land. Sending them back into Jordan and lebenon where they came from in the first place.

[ 06-07-2002, 22:02: Message edited by: Remo Williams ]

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So if you follow that line of thought only Christians or Jews or whoever are the real people of god are and should have that land. Because it's in their bible as such....right? Or can that be argued? Or can common sense take over...like the fact that the Palestinians were there in much greater numbers and were forced to become refugees.

Where does one insert common sense?

The statement was made back in the day by the Arabs: You have no right to this land today. If you come here we will fight you. Wasn't this told to all? Wasn't this clear?

So they started fighting and they continue. They have a yahoo set of beliefs and so do the IsraeliÔÇÖs and so do everyone else.

In a democracy are not the citizens responsible for the actions of their government? And if they are to be considered the governing force in a country does that not make them responsible for the actions of that government?

In no way shape or form do I advocate terrorism or killing children. But I can understand a people fighting perceived oppression against a much stronger enemy. I believe this country found itself in a similar situation at one point.

These people had their land taken recently and they fight. The only way they can and the only way they know how. It is a poor method to achieve their goals. But so is the response.

Peace has to be the objective here. Understanding the recent past and ancient past are two different things.

Meeting violence with more violence never really solves anything unless you can stomach ethnic cleansing as a viable answer. People need to put their ego's on hold and realize that everyone including America made mistakes in this situation and should seek to work it out.

I have no idea how to go about getting these two people communicating but it has to be done..maybe on different levels. Both sides need to be represented and both sides need to compromise. The crazy actions of the few should not represent the feeling of the whole. But how is the whole to feel after the few make poor choices and they suffer for it?

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

So if you follow that line of thought only Christians or Jews or whoever are the real people of god are and should have that land. Because it's in their bible as such....right?

No actually world history tells us who the rightful owners of that land is here interpret it for yourself.

Actually the first known inhabitance were the Canaanites. Maybe if there is any of them still left around they should strap explosives on their back. Then run into the middle of groups of women and children to fight Palestinian and Israeli occupation.

[ 06-08-2002, 22:20: Message edited by: Remo Williams ]

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These 2 people are NOT going to communicate. The palestinians want nothing less then the total destruction of Israel.

The "Palestinians" Arab brothers drove through and slaughtered them like so much cattle to get to Israel, they now expect Israel to give that land back after the Arabs used it and the "Palestinians" to attack them.

The "Palestinians" were slaughtered by their own people, the Arabs, as they went through the "Palestinians" to attack Israel.MOST of that so-called occupied territory was once part of Jordan, NEVER even considered "Palestine". As a matter of fact, a HUGE percentage of these so-called "palestinians" are actually Jordanian.

This whole thing is a fiction as far as I am concerned, if the "palestinians" want their homeland back, then they need to return to Jordan.

These terrorist attacks are nothing but animals being used by their arab brothers to attack Israel in the only way they can. Because Jordan, Egypt, Syria, etc ad nauseum do not have the military strength to attack Israel in a fair fight. It is the death of a thousand cuts.

THe only way to make this stop is to A: build a wall and keep all "palestinians" out of Israel proper, or B: go to war and wipe them out or forcibly remove them to other countries.

That is how this will end, one will win, the other will lose, there is NO other way that this will occur without a major rethinking of "palestinian" authority and government. Once the "Palestinians" have a government that cares about their actual welfare, instead of the political goal of destroying Israel, to hell with the consequences, they have now. Then the above is indeed the ONLY way it will end.

Lots of blood shed, and massive destruction, either Israel takes itssecurity seriously and does something about these terrorists in an overpowering and unquestionable way, or they will be attacked again and again and again, until they are driven into the sea.

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quote:

Meeting violence with more violence never really solves anything unless you can stomach ethnic cleansing as a viable answer.

Actually thatÔÇÖs a good idea. While I doubt it would win the Israeli any popularity contests it would eliminate the suicide bombings. It wouldnÔÇÖt have to be a total cleansing either, simply round up and shoot 100 Palestinians for every Israeli killed and suicide bombing would be really unpopular. If that didnÔÇÖt work then something more drastic, but the fact of the matter is that it would make things safe for the Israeli inhabitants. America would probably have to support it as well because they get so much oil for Israel, it would be an economic necessity.

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Ok, to put these suicide bombings in perspective, think about this:

Arab terrorists start doing random suicide bombings around the United States. In malls, around national landmarks, anywhere there are many people. They claim that they want the US to become isolationist in regards to foreign policy in the Middle East. They tell us not to attack Iraq. Now, this scenario is MINOR compared to Israel since Israel has a LOT less people than the US, thus more of their population is killed with every bomb, but it's still bad. Now, what should/would the US do?

1. Agree totally and become isolationist.

2. Compromise. Agree to not attack Iraq, but will become isolationist in regards to foreign policy with the rest of the Middle East.

3. Immediately attack Iraq and any Middle Eastern country that is suspected of sending the terrorists over or supporting them. Increasing ties with "friendly" Middle Eastern countries. Doing the exact opposite of the demands.

Now, I really don't think it'd be good for the US or its people to do #1 or #2, and there isn't really a #4 unless you wanna add on "nuke the middle east to hell". So, why exactly is it that some people in the US assume that the ISRAELIS need to be nice when people are blowing up bombs next to buses and in shopping centers in their country in order to "get their state". Talk about hypocrites...

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Guest Grayfox

because they are not living over in israel and they think they know what theyre talking about

and you have those who cry when israel invades the west bank (again), then there are those who think israel should sit and do nothing and let the bombings continue.

then there are those who think israel should drop the kid gloves and completely wipe the palestinians off the face of the earth.

me? i dont care anymore because now everything has turned into a political discussion.

so last post for me on this issue

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Personally, I think the Israel needs to do some serious (bloody) show off. Not just sending a few tanks 1 or 2 days shooting on some government headquarters. Get messy, and say you will do it again if you see fit.

The situation is over diplomatic context. Diplomacy won't chance a thing, but put Israel and the United States in a rather complicated and embarrassing situation.

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Good idea Dragon Lady…..that would really cut down on extremist recruitment....

The US probably needs to rethink foreign policy in general. We have this nasty habit of laying down the law because we have a big stick. However, we all have to live together. Forcing our will on others never leaves good feelings.

I do believe this country needs to take an active role in world affairs. I just think we need to tone down the rhetoric and build coalitions to work it out. That does not mean we leave out military options. It means that if we do use the military we keep the end goal in mind and we act with devastating effectiveness until that goal is achieved. And keep in mind the goal has to be obtainable….I don’t think anyone would or could slaughter innocent people. As a soldier I do not have to follow the order to shoot an unarmed woman.

Military action is effective only when it is used in the proper diplomatic context. Since we have so much power we find that using a military solution is an easier and more expedient method then grinding it out. One very important sub component of solving the problems in the middle east will be armed missions. Not to round up and slaughter innocent people but to get those people who have become so blinded with hate they have lost all perspective. And if this includes the Israeli’s then so be it. Terrorists have to be eliminated. However if we do not focus on the source and take a hard look in the mirror we aren't going to accomplish anything.

Now we just caught some freak in DC trying to build a dirty nuke device. This guy does not represent the feelings of the majority of followers of the Muslim faith. However our very color sensitive decision making process will probably ignore this fact....and I think we'd all agree that he is just one of many who will attempt this. The odds of success increase with every attempt.

You have to ask yourself is it going to worth it in the end? I don't know what that end will be, but once an extremist group detonates one of those devices in a US city things are going to get crazy. Loss of people, loss of personal freedom, increased Federal power etc. It's going to be a mess and all because some people think that hitting back harder is the only solution. How childish is that? You realize that the atmosphere can only handle so much radioactive material before we can’t live here anymore right? And the stuff that is detonated in TV land will not just stay there right? So some say nuke em' now but I wonder how you'll feel after fallout travels here and starts causing all kinds of problems for us and our families.

I just don't want American's killed because fifty years ago a poor choice was made that is not being fixed with current and previous policy... only exasperated.

The decisions that are being made now, remind me of a Roman type policy that always fails in the end.

These are my opinions that perhaps in time will change

[ 06-10-2002, 16:03: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

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quote:

ood idea Dragon Lady..that would really cut down on extremist recruitment....

And who would they recruit, the dead? Corpses donÔÇÖt usually have it in them to be zealots or terrorists.

quote:

The US probably needs to rethink foreign policy in general. We have this nasty habit of laying down the law because we have a big stick. However, we all have to live together. Forcing our will on others never leaves good feelings.

It works though. If you hadnÔÇÖt noticed I'm a big fan of expediency and practicality. Anyway, I'm not talking about the US intervening, thatÔÇÖs entirely unnecessary. Israel is fully capable of dealing with the Palestinian threat on their own, the US would at most shelter them from diplomatic consequences.

quote:

I do believe this country needs to take an active role in world affairs. I just think we need to tone down the rhetoric and build coalitions to work it out.

Some things donÔÇÖt take well to being worked out. Should the IsraeliÔÇÖs try to talk to the terrorists (something that hasnÔÇÖt worked so far) while more of there citizens are being murdered by crazed yahoos?

quote:

It means that if we do use the military we keep the end goal in mind and we act with devastating effectiveness until that goal is achieved.

Yep, and when dealing with an opponent that will not reason military intervention provides the only real solution. Mass executions and ÔÇ£ethnic cleansingÔÇØ as you put it are the only real response that will make any difference there.

quote:

And keep in mind the goal has to be obtainable.I dont think anyone would or could slaughter innocent people. As a soldier I do not have to follow the order to shoot an unarmed woman.

While you may not be willing to, there are soldiers who would be. More to the point, there are no doubt soldiers in the Israeli army that would be delighted to execute Palestinians on a massive scale, and they would be the ones doing it.

quote:

Military action is effective only when it is used in the proper diplomatic context. Since we have so much power we find that using a military solution is an easier and more expedient method then grinding it out. One very important sub component of solving the problems in the middle east will be armed missions. Not to round up and slaughter innocent people but to get those people who have become so blinded with hate they have lost all perspective. And if this includes the IsraeliÔÇÖs then so be it. Terrorists have to be eliminated. However if we do not focus on the source and take a hard look in the mirror we aren't going to accomplish anything.

Massive executions, itÔÇÖs really the only way. Not necessarily everyone, but enough that there simply is no population base to recruit terrorists from.

quote:

Now we just caught some freak in DC trying to build a dirty nuke device. This guy does not represent the feelings of the majority of followers of the Muslim faith. However our very color sensitive decision making process will probably ignore this fact....and I think we'd all agree that he is just one of many who will attempt this. The odds of success increase with every attempt.

True, but itÔÇÖs not America that IÔÇÖm talking about, it would be ridiculous for anyone to expect us to stick our neck out to deal with the Palestinian problem, that is the IsraeliÔÇÖs job. Oh, and one thing I would like to point out, the only kind of foreign policy that would prevent yahoos from trying to bomb us would be a passive one, and that would have far more dire consequences.

quote:

The decisions that are being made now, remind me of a Roman type policy that always fails in the end.

Rome fell apart from internal conflict, itÔÇÖs foreign policy was quit effective.

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quote:

It works though. If you hadn’t noticed I'm a big fan of expediency and practicality. Anyway, I'm not talking about the US intervening, that’s entirely unnecessary. Israel is fully capable of dealing with the Palestinian threat on their own, the US would at most shelter them from diplomatic consequences.


If you call struggling to secure our boarders, arming our local police and other agencies to be ready for a biological attack working.....I don’t. It tells me that something is very wrong with some people and we need to understand why they would want to kill our people….we have to then work towards a relationship of understanding a mutual respect. Some people are so far-gone that you can’t talk reasonably with them anymore but the vast majority are not like this. We have to insure that the moderate does not become the extremist. And this is not achieved by acting like Nazis.

Have the Israeli’s handled the problem in the past? I mean really created a lasting peace?

quote:

Some things don’t take well to being worked out. Should the Israeli’s try to talk to the terrorists (something that hasn’t worked so far) while more of there citizens are being murdered by crazed yahoos?


That's where a concerned and objective third party comes in. A third party that cares about both sides concerns and needs. However…to have the support from each side this third party can’t be biased….so we need to lose the unwavering sanctioning of all Israeli actions….and I think we are. We have to explore where they have done wrong and bring it to light. All sides have to acknowledge responsibility for their actions and realize that there can be another way. We do this and at the same time, find and kill those who would stand in the way of a lasting peace. We don’t just kill anyone, we kill those who are extremely disruptive to peace. But we give everyone a shot and if they screw it up to the point of killing children we take them out after proper review.

quote:

Yep, and when dealing with an opponent that will not reason military intervention provides the only real solution. Mass executions and “ethnic cleansing” as you put it are the only real response that will make any difference there

Ok Mrs. Malosivic sp?....

I recommend you see a professional....I think you need to sit down and discuss some issues....

quote:

While you may not be willing to, there are soldiers who would be. More to the point, there are no doubt soldiers in the Israeli army that would be delighted to execute Palestinians on a massive scale, and they would be the ones doing it.


Being that the Israelis defined what ethnic cleansing is all about in the modern era, I think they would actually choose the opposite. How they feel now and their own past shows that this final solution of yours is a policy they would most likely avoid at all costs.

You have no insight into the mind of a soldier. A real soldier prizes the morals that go into a cause. These days the morals are about honor, integrity, teamwork, and courage...things you fail to factor into your equations on the human condition. The difference between a soldier and a murderer is a fine line but the difference is overwhelming. Anyone can pick up a weapon and be a murderer. It takes something more to be a soldier. Like the differences between the majority of the German infantry and armor formations and the SS units and brownshirts back in WWII. I know from your previous posts that you don’t understand the idea’s behind this morality so if your confused I understand. But trust me when I tell you that when most citizens’ picks up a weapon to fight for his or her country they are not looking forward to it. So please don't call murderers soldiers...cause it just ain't the case.

quote:

Massive executions, it’s really the only way. Not necessarily everyone, but enough that there simply is no population base to recruit terrorists from

I think you like to say stuff like this just to get a rise out of people....

There are a whole lot of Muslims in the world....you gonna kill 'em all?

quote:

True, but it’s not America that I’m talking about, it would be ridiculous for anyone to expect us to stick our neck out to deal with the Palestinian problem, that is the Israeli’s job. Oh, and one thing I would like to point out, the only kind of foreign policy that would prevent yahoos from trying to bomb us would be a passive one, and that would have far more dire consequences.


That may or may not be correct. You can't just have one or the other.....international politics is a dynamic thing. Finding the proper ratio is what’s important. I am not prepared to lose a city because we have to have oil to stabilize the economy....we should look towards a more achievable, stable, and lasting solutions.

There have been vast oil resources uncovered in Russia why not go there and get there infrastructure up and rolling?

Why not instead of building better ways to bomb peasants we could focus on renewable energy tech etc

There are so many other things we could be doing....

quote:

Rome fell apart from internal conflict, it’s foreign policy was quit effective.


It was overrun by barbarians right? Funny how all the surrounding subjugated countries just kinda let it happen...

Rome is case and point of how a break through in various tech allowed it to control a vast empire with the arrogance to match. But it fell apart because of piss poor foreign and domestic policy. Trying to dominate never works in the end.

Earlier we talked about how power seems to become an end unto itself. You said this is ok because the implosion that results will take care of the problem. If I remember correctly after the fall or implosion of Rome didn’t the world face a Dark Age that lasted for quite some time? I don’t think another dark age would be good for man….cause it will probably include another ice age.

[ 06-11-2002, 12:19: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

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