Aliens among us?

[Supreme Cmdr]

I don't have an opinion either way, but I swear if they don't show themselves soon, I'm going to have to go looking.

Anyway, while waiting for DraconisRex to come up with his conspiracy theories, as mentioned in that Taken thread, I came across this.

So, let the debate begin! I don't care who wins, just show me where they're hiding and I'm there!

EDIT:

Oh, and since this one has already been solved, can we all go home now then?

[ 12-08-2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[Commander Elio Jason]

please! i don't want to know Gammulans are among us!

[DraconisRex]

Look. I don't believe in little green men. (I think they're gray, anyway... LOL) I'm not trying to start an argument, it's just that in the war of the Masters of Misinformation vs. The UFO Conspiracy Buffs, if witts were the weapon, they'd both lose to common sense....

US Air Force: If you're gonna lie, read the book Plausable Deniability beforehand.

Conspiracy Buffs: Get some decent witnesses.

Bug-Eyed Men from Outer Space: Come on, if you exist, the least you could do is leave some evidence. Urinate on a tree for all I care; that would be better than what we've seen so far!

Something happened at Roswell that goes far beyond what the USAF has claimed. Weather balloons, even though they were used to detect Russian atomic blasts, would not remain classified for over 40-years. When satellites came out in the 50's and 60's, they could detect them far easier. Were they afraid of Russian reprisal at that point for using balloons back in the 40's?

Anyway, I don't know what actually happened, but I do know the smell of the south end of a north-bound horse.... There is a conspiracy, but it may only be that of the conspiracy buffs...

I'll post what I have available later this week.

[d8alus]

There can't be aliens out there! That'd ruin my whole claim to arrogance and superiority!!

Seriously, even if there ARE et's...why do they have to be more technologically advanced than us?

Also, just to play the religion card (yes, it DOES effect everything in my life), I'd have to say that if they existed the Bible woulda said something. For those that are interested, Bible-based thoughts on UFOs can be found here.

Oh, one more thing. If aliens existed, they'd most likely want NOTHING to do with our pathetic species.

[Epsilon 5]

I believe 100% that there are aliens out there. I hardly believe any of them is watching us though. There have so many government coverups nothing would be suprising. Hell they deny the Aurora spyplane when I've played games featuring it .. (Janes' fighters anthology, for example).

Area 51 has no UFO. Area 51 was a weapon and spytech research lab in the cold war.

I don't believe either in a battlezone-like conspiracy, i.e. NASA being the public version of an undercover group that can go in space and fight stuff in the shadows of the moon, mars and venus.

[Kevin Trotter]

In 1997 A spokesman from the Pentagon went on tv and admitted that that the Air Force lied about Roswell. However he explained it was not a UFO or a weather baloon but another project that was so secret they can only now say what is was : Project Mogul , an attempt to monitor Soviet atomic blast test. this stunning revealation came about because a a Us Senator(maybe he's a Congressman) pressed the issue repeatedly.

So let me get this right ..The Gov't says sorry we lied in 1947 but we're telling the truth now?

it was a ballon so secret that we kept it to ourselves long after it was technologically redundant? I don't know what happened in Roswell but if we are waiting on truth from the gov't don't hold your breath and watch the skies

[DraconisRex]

EP5, I find that post very interesting... On the Aurora, Per Jane's Defense:

quote:

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For the past decade, the Canadian Air Force has been awaiting government approval to proceed with the upgrade of its fleet of 18 Lockheed CP-140 Aurora maritime surveillance aircraft, in service since 1980. Now, the onboard systems are becoming less effective and less supportable. The result is, instead of one turnkey project to upgrade the aircraft systems, the air force has been forced to buy replacement systems, one at a time. Sharon Hobson outlines the action to date.

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The reason I love Winston Churchill:

quote:

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"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing -- when they have exhausted every possible alternative."

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[Guest Grayfox]

personally i think all this UFO nosense is just that... nonsense.

you got these backwoods hilljacks claiming they saw purty lights in the sky, and that aliens abducted them yadda yadda yadda... i think someone needs to tell them to not eat those little mushrooms under the cow patties.

i think IF there was life out there (intelligent life) they would have made contact... and it would be soooo big that the government couldnt do a coverup.

[Epsilon 5]

I was talking about THIS aurora, not this one ...

[DraconisRex]

I'm going to tie a few things together here, which form an interesting (if less than provable) hypothesis. Between the Aurora, the Super Valkyrie, the Lockheed X22A, and the Bifeld-Brown effect, it makes for a very interesting picture of what's going on.

If we can prove that the USAAF did make a Bifeld-Brown ship back in the mid-1940's, then that would account for a lot, if not all, of the UFO reports to-date. I mean, if a country can make a UFO, why not use it?

Tip-of-the-iceburg stuff, folks....

[DraconisRex]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kiran:

Oh, one more thing. If aliens existed, they'd most likely want NOTHING to do with our pathetic species.

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I disagree. Since God made everything there is, then He also made them. Curiosity and the desire to explore are both given traits of man, and I doubt seriously that God wouldn't share those gifts with any other sentient beings He decided to make.

While the Bible is the Word of God, it is also limited to man -- I don't think any of we humans are qualified to say what God would or wouldn't do, who He would choose to create, what species He chose for His creations, or even why He would do any of this.

Quadrillions of stars out there... Hard to believe God would waste all that space, just for one lonely blue-green planet in the midst of a sea of endless stars.....

[DraconisRex]

quote:

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Originally posted by Race Bannon IV:

In 1997 A spokesman from the Pentagon went on tv and admitted that that the Air Force lied about Roswell. However he explained it was not a UFO or a weather baloon but another project that was so secret they can only now say what is was : Project Mogul , an attempt to monitor Soviet atomic blast test. this stunning revealation came about because a a Us Senator(maybe he's a Congressman) pressed the issue repeatedly.

So let me get this right ..The Gov't says sorry we lied in 1947 but we're telling the truth now?

it was a ballon so secret that we kept it to ourselves long after it was technologically redundant? I don't know what happened in Roswell but if we are waiting on truth from the gov't don't hold your breath and watch the skies

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Very well said. Old motto of my family, from our Irish heritage: Fool me once, it's your fault. Fool me twice, and I'll be damned by my own blame. I'm Heinz 57 -- English, Scottish, Irish, German, Choctaw Indian, and God-only-knows what else. If I tend to mix heritages in my conversations, there is a reason...

"He that lies will lie again" is more than a saying -- it's a truth. Especially when dealing with the Masters of Misinformation.

[Epsilon 5]

I have to cast doubt on the flying saucers... since I have never seen or heard anything of the like from a relatively thrustworthy source

[d8alus]

quote:

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what species He chose for His creations, or even why He would do any of this.

Quadrillions of stars out there... Hard to believe God would waste all that space, just for one lonely blue-green planet in the midst of a sea of endless stars.....

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Hard to believe that He'd create all the species here on Earth just for our enjoyment, but He did. Bible says so. Besides, He's not in the misdirection business. i.e. leaving out info just to cause doubt later. The creation account tells of Him creating everything, and not once mentions life on other planets. (not trying to turn this into a religious discussion, just food for thought.)

[d8alus]

quote:

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If aliens existed, they'd most likely want NOTHING to do with our pathetic species.

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Well, in all honesty, I'm a meddler. I can't watch someone having problems and just let them fumble through it. I have to at least drop hints or suggestions and sometimes flat out tell them what they're doing wrong. So, IF there were aliens, and IF they were more advanced than us, and IF they managed to get along with themselves well enough to share space. Who's to say they wouldn't look at our race with all our petty arguments and wars over nothing and not feel the need to drop in from time-to-time to knock some sense into us or drop clues.

I don't think that a politically heterogeneous species could have the tech for interstellar travel without having the tech for massive weapons of destuction and killing each other off in the process. IMHO sharing a planet peacefully is prerequisite for sharing space. Either that or have some kick-ass defense measures.

[DraconisRex]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kiran:

Hard to believe that He'd create all the species here on Earth just for our enjoyment, but He did. Bible says so. Besides, He's not in the misdirection business. i.e. leaving out info just to cause doubt later. The creation account tells of Him creating everything, and not once mentions life on other planets. (not trying to turn this into a religious discussion, just food for thought.)

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I've eaten that food before, even walked the walk, for that matter. Then, logic kicks in.

1) This is the same Book that barely touches upon the generations of women (who are mere chattle);

2) It does not mention the Angels nor devils being created until well-after the initial description of Creation;

3) It has been modified by man, many times, with deletions and additions at man's will.

I cannot accept the Bible as the end-all of the repository of all knowledge concerning anything extraterrestrial, especially since Angels, devils, and even God Himself cannot be of Earthly origin by simple definition.

That doesn't make the Bible wrong -- it was written for men about men and God. That's it. Just because it doesn't mention cars, computers, ariplanes, etc., doesn't mean we weren't meant to have them. But the lack of their mention doesn't make the Bible wrong either.

However, if what you're saying is the general concenscious of Christians, then that means that the Roswell cover-up was right and Mulder was wrong -- We can't handle the truth. Any alien worth his salt would research us, and know full-well about human intolerence of anything non-Biblical.

[d8alus]

quote:

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I cannot accept the Bible as the end-all of the repository of all knowledge concerning anything extraterrestrial, especially since Angels, devils, and even God Himself cannot be of Earthly origin by simple definition.

That doesn't make the Bible wrong -- it was written for men about men and God. That's it. Just because it doesn't mention cars, computers, ariplanes, etc., doesn't mean we weren't meant to have them. But the lack of their mention doesn't make the Bible wrong either.

However, if what you're saying is the general concenscious of Christians, then that means that the Roswell cover-up was right and Mulder was wrong -- We can't handle the truth. Any alien worth his salt would research us, and know full-well about human intolerence of anything non-Biblical.

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Don't get me wrong, if little green men fall out of the sky in a soup bowl and start speaking gibberish I'm not going to curl up in a ball and start screaming, "why, God, why?" I'll just add that to the list of the many things I don't really understand.

The bible was given to us to show us the way to heaven, all the accounts in the old testament lead up to, and provide proof for, the birth and life of Christ. The bible shows us how to properly live our lives in harmony with one another (although we don't). It is the road for salvation. So, if aliens are out there and God didn't mention them, maybe that's cuz it ain't really important to salvation. On the other hand, I (me personally, that's an opinion) believe that if aliens were out there, they'd be mentioned somewhere along the way in the bible.

We could argue this lil point back and forth till we die, so let's just agree to disagree and move on to other points.

[Raven]

I'm not going to argue aliens, UFOs, and Bifeld-Brown ships (and that's NOT the same as antigravity by the way), that's not my thing anyway. I will say that I don't believe in alien visitations the same reason that I don't believe in ghosts or similar nonsense. There is no good reason to believe and too many alternate explanations.

However, I will disagree with this flawed belief that aliens will somehow coincide with our idea of an advanced society (actually, I should say your idea of an advanced society, it's not mine). First of all, aliens are ALIEN, completely and totally inhuman. Before you start screaming ort clouds and panspermia consider that seeding of that sort is with only the most basic sort of life, and whatever develops from it on other worlds is likely to be vastly different then us.

Now, assuming that aliens are even remotely comprehensible (which I'm not sure if it would be the case, but it's rather hard to discuss anything that isn't comprehensible, so were stuck with that assumption) we have to realize that they came from the same evolutionary process as we did, it just happened elsewhere (religious rambling to the side). Consider, if you will, how many species are peaceful on earth, and you will find it tends to be dumb herbivores, and not even them entirely. This suggests that there is an evolutionary reason for war: it is the ultimate means by which the fit may be separated from the unfit, and this in turn suggests that violence would be an inherent aspect of any species psychological makeup.

Now, Kiran tells us that a heterogeneous alien society would destroy itself before it managed interstellar travel. Right. We all believe you Kiran. It seams more likely that, while they would indeed have WMDs, they could go without using them just as easily as we do. We have survived for the last 50 or so years with the existence of nuclear weapons and the threat of WW3, but we have been very politically heterogeneous without blowing ourselves up. This could easily last the next 100 years (especially with all the different defense systems people are trying to come up with). How long will it take for our race to have a secure extraterrestrial habitat? How long before we're colonizing mars (either terraforming or domes)? Once a species has a sufficiently spread out population that is independent of its homeworld the thread of WMDs is reduced radically.

Now, it may be the case that aliens really are peaceful tree-hugging, flower-smelling, hick-probing pansies, but it seams like something of a stretch to assume that with the overwhelming lack of information.

[Starfighter08]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dragon Lady:

Now, it may be the case that aliens really are peaceful tree-hugging, flower-smelling, hick-probing pansies, but it seams like something of a stretch to assume that with the overwhelming lack of information.

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We would be the stone-age native Americans to an Alien's Columbus. And last time I checked the natives didn't fare too well against the Europeans.

What do you think, could the National Missile Defense shoot down UFOs?

[Raven]

I don't know, could a ship of the line shoot down a modern fighter plane? Didn't think so.

[DraconisRex]

Kiran:

Why don't we start a "Mysteries of the Bible" thread, just to ask questions and discuss what it didn't answer? For example:

When Cain and Able went to the land of Nod (wondering), howfore did they obtain their wives?

The current thread is specific to aliens, but I wouldn't mind arguing, uhm, that is, discussing the Bible with you. Maybe we could all learn a thing or two. You start it...

[DraconisRex]

The main reason I believe that the USAAF (US Army Air Force -- changed to the US Air Force in October of the same year that the incident in Roswell supposedly occurred -- Roswell in July of 1947; USAF change in October -- cooincidence?) had access to basic UFO technology, is the following document:

The Flying Saucer

(If you go to Thomas Townsend Brown, you can find a pretty good history of the man, his theories, and works by other people on the Bifeld-Brown project.)

This article was published in 1929, in both Science and Invention, and Psychic Observer. Although we had planes at that point in history, the military would have been more than happy to investigate what could be done with this type of craft.

With great minds like Tesla, Brown, Einstein, etc., I doubt the military would have hesitated getting the project off-the-ground.

What happened in Roswell? It could have been one of these Saucers, crashing into the ground and scattering its remains around the area. This type of project would have been extremely classified, and most of the military wouldn't have been aware of what they were dealing with. They just follow orders...

Since the original lie, they've compounded the problem by trying to bury the truth. There are enough people that suspect a cover-up, but only because the military changed their story mid-stream. Weather balloon? Could have been some of that too.

As for space aliens... I do know they were working on flight suits that could survive high altitudes as they were researching faster and higher planes. Also, these suits would be required if the "saucer" were to try for space-altitude flight. If the ship were to crash into the ground, what would they look like to the people seeing it?

Now, this is part-speculation, based on a lot of personal research, but it seems more plausible than anything the USAF has released to-date. I do know that the Air Force had access to magazines, and they also had direct access to Bifeld and Brown.

More to come....

[ 12-09-2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: DraconisRex ]

[sradel]

I read an article long ago that had a good point.

You have a race of aliens that are thousands of years ahead of us in technology. They have the ability to fly light years through space to come and visit our little planet. And the first thing they do when they get here is turn on their landing lights. What the hell do they need with lights. every UFO you see has cute little blinking lights. Now i am all for life on other planets, But I dont believe a lot of these pics are ships from another world. Just my thoughts.

Also excuse me if this post didnt come out right. It has been several years since I posted on any site.

[DraconisRex]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gunfighter:

I read an article long ago that had a good point.

You have a race of aliens that are thousands of years ahead of us in technology. They have the ability to fly light years through space to come and visit our little planet. And the first thing they do when they get here is turn on their landing lights. What the hell do they need with lights. every UFO you see has cute little blinking lights. Now i am all for life on other planets, But I dont believe a lot of these pics are ships from another world. Just my thoughts.

Also excuse me if this post didnt come out right. It has been several years since I posted on any site.

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Good point. At the same time, they may use them for other purposes. Just because their lights are seen in our optical band doesn't mean it's their optical band. Communications, energy transfer, etc. are all possible in the TeraHertz frequencies. I have yet to see a transmitter than will work at that high a frequency, but if you can travel the stars, you can do just about anything you want to....

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dragon Lady:

Now, it may be the case that aliens really are peaceful tree-hugging, flower-smelling, hick-probing pansies,

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ahahahahaha!!! man, that was funny.

quote:

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Originally posted by Gunfighter:

You have a race of aliens that are thousands of years ahead of us in technology. They have the ability to fly light years through space to come and visit our little planet. And the first thing they do when they get here is turn on their landing lights. What the hell do they need with lights. every UFO you see has cute little blinking lights.

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ahahahahaha!!! Man, this is getting outta hand, isn't it?

[ 12-09-2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]