Mysteries of the Bible

[d8alus]

As per DraconisRex's request, this thread is for all questions biblical. Keep the gloves on. Here's a few thoughts to get you started.

1. Where did Cain's wife come from?

2. Was the world really created in six days, or is that figurative language?

3. What were the 'leviathan and behemoth' and where'd they go?

4. Revelations...explain it...

5. Did God really stop the sun?

that's just a few to get you thinking...Enjoy!

I'll be back

[DraconisRex]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kiran:

As per DraconisRex's request, this thread is for all questions biblical. Keep the gloves on. Here's a few thoughts to get you started.

1. Where did Cain's wife come from?

2. Was the world really created in six days, or is that figurative language?

3. What were the 'leviathan and behemoth' and where'd they go?

4. Revelations...explain it...

5. Did God really stop the sun?

that's just a few to get you thinking...Enjoy!

I'll be back

---

1) Cain's wife came from the land of Nod (which means wondering). What she was doing there is extremely unclear.

2) The Bible sort of answers this one. One of God's days is liken 10,000 years, which means the world was created, along with man, in 60,000 years. This doesn't match with science, but since cultures have vastly different cultures before Noah, then it might have a different conclusion that we would expect.

Now, if you compare the Begats (meaning those two books of the Bible that list all the men born) with the number of years listed, then about 6,000 years ago Monday morning at 8:00 am, man popped into existance. Which was news to the Chinese, who have had a written history for more than 15,000.

Thanks to Noah, and the Ark, it raises a complete set of questions, but also answers a disparity of human history on this planet.

3) I have no idea.

4) The Revelation of John (the Diciple) was written as a letter while he was in exile. It details the world to come, and the Return of Christ. What did want explained -- the entire book?

5) Did He stop the Earth or the sun? The effect is the same.... Don't know.

[d8alus]

Well, I don't feel like researching my Bible tonite, so look for more tomorrow...here's some top-of-the-head stuff..

1. Ok, now that you've pinpointed that she comes from Nod, who were her parents? (note that I don't think the Bible says 'when' Cain took a wife, so it could conceivably be his neice/granddaughter.)

2. That same phrase says 10,000 yrs is liken to a day. Just means He's eternal. Note this, everywhere else that the same word for day was used, it meant, literally, one day.

3. Read the book of Job. Leviathan was a sea creature that 'played with the ships in the sea'. Behemoth was some great beast that walked on land. One of those was described as fire-breathing. (dragons? dinosaurs?)

4. Well, pick a part and talk about it...whole book is full of questions for most people.

5. Two places mention His altering time. Don't remember where, will research. Both add up to a day, tho.

[Epsilon 5]

I'd like to see what the bible says about the dinosaurs. you can't deny them, unless you are an ultra-religious-conservatist (in which case you have to deny all of science), and the whole theory of evolution (Darwin sure gave all those religious people a headache).

BTW - one of my religion teacher once told me that the genesis was written by someone (forgot who) while jews we're in exile in babylon (or somewhere around there), and that they we're getting corrupted by the gods of the place. The document would have been written to give faith back in the people.

And about Noah, I think they already found something that would be alike to ark, the wreckage of a large boat, where there's the Tiger river (name?). Because it's a large delta in that area that often get flooded, Noah would have gotten fed up of losing his cattle, so would have made a boat to embark his possessions, and saved it all. And it would have inspired the author of the bible's version.

I believe in god, but I also believe in science, and therefore, logic.

[d8alus]

Yes, I'm camping the forum, sue me...I have no life.

As far as dinos go....the only mention I can find is in Job (leviathan and behemoth)..other than that no mention...then again the Bible doesn't mention frogs either...

The Noah thing...I gotta research that a bit.

[DraconisRex]

quote:

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Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

I'd like to see what the bible says about the dinosaurs. you can't deny them, unless you are an ultra-religious-conservatist (in which case you have to deny all of science), and the whole theory of evolution (Darwin sure gave all those religious people a headache).

BTW - one of my religion teacher once told me that the genesis was written by someone (forgot who) while jews we're in exile in babylon (or somewhere around there), and that they we're getting corrupted by the gods of the place. The document would have been written to give faith back in the people.

And about Noah, I think they already found something that would be alike to ark, the wreckage of a large boat, where there's the Tiger river (name?). Because it's a large delta in that area that often get flooded, Noah would have gotten fed up of losing his cattle, so would have made a boat to embark his possessions, and saved it all. And it would have inspired the author of the bible's version.

I believe in god, but I also believe in science, and therefore, logic.

---

Okay... It doesn't mention the dinosaurs, but understand that, before the time of Moses, the Bible was handed down by each generation. It reads like a child's story, because there was only the word of mouth, and that's the easiest form to pass a story that must be remembered in exacting detail. Until Moses had his scribes write the first books of the Old Testament, there were only the children who passed the story.

Now, Noah brought up an interesting possibility -- maybe the Jews didn't start on this planet at all. "40 days and 40 nights" meant that they didn't know exactly how long something was, but it was longer than several weeks. I was talking about the disparity of history vs. the Bible earlier -- if several groups of humans were transported here, then their histories wouldn't match at all. That seems to be the case. Maybe man survived the dinosaurs becasue they died off long before he existed. This is just speculation, but with the multiple creations of the Earth, as defined by several religions, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

When Moses came into the picture, the Israelites were slaves of the Egyptians. Moses, being an "adopted" Egyptian prince (in effect), would have access to the Libraries, historians, and everything else they knew about the planet. His scribes wrote the first books of the Bible, from the stories told by the Israelites of the time.

There may have been much that was discarded, forgotten, or simply missed in the original text. That is why I stated in the Alien thread that we did not know, absolutely, that God did or did not create other beings as His children.

Part of the problem with languages is demonstrated below:

Genesis in Pig Latin -- This is a real link!

[DraconisRex]

Oops... Fogot to finish my post... EP5, a bit of background info for you:

quote:

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The Bible's account of Noah, the ark, and the Genesis flood states that the ark came to rest on the "mountains of rrt" where "rrt" has been translated "Urartu" or later "Ararat" during Armenian times. At the beginning of the Christian era, Ararat (another version of the Hebrew "rrt" - no vowels in the Masoretic Hebrew text of Genesis") was only a northerly subdivision of Armenia near the Araxes river. During the time of the Old Testament though, the Urartian region was much more extensive (as shown on the map above). From Assyrian texts, Urartu is known to have existed from about the late 13th century BC to the 9th century BC as a loose federation of tribes. However, if one takes a conservative view of Moses writing Genesis in the 15th century BC rather than the 13th century BC, then Urartu would have been known even in that era. The Urartian Kingdom existed from the 9th century BC until the 6th century BC when it was destroyed by the Medes and vanished from history, only to be rediscovered in the archaeology of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Thus there exists the possibility of a mis-interpretation of Genesis by post-Christian writers and Armenians restricting the Ark's landfall to the smaller Araxes valley area including Mount Ararat rather than the larger Urartian region or "mountains of Urartu" as described by Moses in Genesis. However, some of this is speculation since there are no cross-references in 15th century BC writing so no one really knows exactly where Moses was referring to when he stated that the ark came to rest on the "mountains of rrt".

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quote:

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During late August and early September 1983, a small group of explorers sponsored by and representing ICR was allowed to climb Mt. Ararat in search of Noah's Ark. The climbing team concentrated its efforts on the west and north sides of the mountain, particularly the east side of the Ahora Gorge, thought to be the most likely site for the remains of the Ark.

The writer was once again the leader of the expedition, having directed the project since the early 1970's. We returned to the mountain on August 19 with a scaled-down crew of four Americans and one Turkish resident of America. The permits which had been requested beginning in early July were delayed until a very complete screening and evaluation process was completed by the Turkish government. Unfortunately, two members of the proposed team, Dr. Howard Carlson, Sumerian Archaeologist, and Dave Elliot, professional cinematographer, were unable to accompany the group at such a late date. Three of the team were mountaineering experts, two of whom were also trained in mountain rescue and medicine. One of these mountaineers, Donald Barber of San Diego, re-activated a previous injury at the 9500 ft. level and was unable to continue the climb. The other mountaineers, exmedic Brian Bartlett of Samuels, Idaho, and Dr. Ahmet Arslan of Washington, D.C., an expert on Turkish folklore, native of Mt. Ararat as well as professional climber, did make the climb. They were joined by Ed Crawford of Edmonton, Alberta, trained in Sumerian culture and cuneiform, and the writer. These were accompanied on the mountain by Ahmet Shaheen, vice-president of the Turkish Alpine Federation, and two Kurdish residents of Mt. Ararat. A return date of September 7 was necessary because of prior commitments, the group having planned to begin the work earlier in the summer.

In contrast to nearly all past expeditions, ICR applied for and was granted full scientific research permits by the Turkish government. The group proposed to study archaeological remains in the Ararat area, make linguistic and cultural comparisons with remains at sites known to be of great antiquity and to test the ICR position that all civilizations had originally sprung from a common source, the survivors of the Flood who lived on Mt. Ararat. Specific plans had originally included careful documentation and evaluation of known inscriptions, relief drawings, underground chambers, and structures previously discovered in the vicinity of Mt. Ararat, while also searching the area for other ancient relics, including the remains of the Ark. All members of the ICR team were specialists chosen specifically as men capable of accomplishing these goals.

Although the permits were finally granted and research visas issued by the Turkish Embassy in Washington, D.C., finalization of the necessary paperwork kept the ICR group off the mountain for still another week-and-a-half of precious time. While waiting, they re-visited an unexcavated cave in the foothills of Ararat which has been known but never publicized to any extent until John Morris' books in 1973 and 1975. 1, 2 The cave, which had been dated as pre-Hittite based on the carvings and inscriptions near its opening, is hand-carved into an upturned layer of sandy limestone. Many more aspects of this site were discovered, including a series of prepared ledges and a facade which had been smoothed off near the cave opening in preparation for additional inscriptions or openings. Unfortunately, much deterioration of the area has taken place since 1975 and an interior room (tomb area?) as well as an arched tunnel had collapsed. The excavation of this promising site remains of paramount importance in the understanding of the early civilizations which sprang up after the Flood.

The other important archaeological site which ICR had hoped to document was declared a restricted zone and access was impossible. Objects discovered on past expeditions include a large semicircular altar, a cave with eight Sumerian crosses on its entry, inscriptions in a precuneiform script and many other objects of obvious antiquity. Much fruitful work could be done at this site.

Instead of beginning their climb on the northern side, which lies within the sensitive zone adjacent to the Russian border, as they had hoped, the ICR team was forced to climb from the south side on the standard tourist route to the summit and then to traverse around to the west and north. Implications of this ruling included losing four days of the limited remaining time in ascent and descent, inability to establish a base camp with proper documentary and climbing gear, and many miles of dangerous climbing on loose glacial skree.

Once at the Ahora Gorge, however, the team did check out what were thought to be the most promising sites, from vantage points above as well as below. No wood of any sort was discovered. Two new inscriptions were discovered on loose rocks in the bottom of the Ahora Gorge made of a granite stone common on the west face of the gorge. Another hand-carved cave which is easily seen on the vertical west wall of the gorge is reported to contain objects of religious significance by Kurdish villagers, none of whom have ventured there for superstitious reasons. Indeed, it would be nearly impossible to do so without technical rock climbing skills and equipment. Due to the reduced quantity and type of technical equipment brought on the long climb from the starting point on the south side of the mountain, the ICR team was disappointed in its efforts to enter the cave. Climbing from below was unsafe due to loose rock. A two-rope-length rappel down from above stopped about 10 meters above the cave.

Those knowledgeable on the Ararat project know that late August is considered the optimum time to search. The weather becomes much more unpredictable and potentially violent in September and climbing may become quite dangerous. Reports of a record winter snowfall had dampened expectations for the summer's work, as did news reports of bad weather in mid-August. But the ICR team found the mountain rather hospitable for a change, although cloud cover hampered photography and two midday snowstorms forced temporary bivouacs. Each day the snow melted and very little snow remained below 14,000 ft. elevation while the glaciers had receded back farther than in anyone's memory. The conditions seemed optimum for a discovery.

Other aspects of danger were also avoided. Relationships with the local Kurds on the mountain were enhanced by participation of the two Turkish guides and the assistance of the two well-respected Kurdish villagers. Thankfully, only a few minor skirmishes occurred with the usually vicious Kurdish wolfhounds. Furthermore, even though the team spent many hours and traveled many miles over loose "crumbly rock," only rare avalanches caused concern, with no injuries. We did encounter a bear in an ice cave on a hot afternoon in the Ahora Gorge, but thankfully, he was not interested in us.

Despite the favorable conditions, no remains of the Ark were discovered. Those sites thought to be the most likely resting places for the Ark were thoroughly investigated and photographed. Other sites of less interest could have been checked out, but time was short. (As it was, the writer had to miss the first three weeks of his teaching duties for the fall semester and could not stay longer.) The team returned to the States on September 8 and 10, satisfied that they had done everything possible under the circumstances. They and their financial and prayer supporters were predictably disappointed that the Ark was not discovered, but rest in the fact that God will allow the discovery in His time, and not before.

Turkey has recently changed its long-standing position against research and travel in the Ararat area. Whereas for the last 10 years or so, access has been quite limited, many groups from countries around the world were allowed to climb to the summit this year. Several expeditions were not restricted to the standard summit route and were allowed to look elsewhere in search of Noah's Ark.

One such expedition consisted of Pat Frost, Dr. Howard Davis, James Davies and others who linked up with a Turkish group doing medical research on the mountain. They achieved good coverage of the North Canyon area, and the area west of the Ahora Gorge. Another, headed up by Dr. John Willis, excavated a portion of an interesting ice pack east of the summit at 16,000 ft. elevation with a modified chain saw adapted to ice. Still another group, John McIntosh and friends, spent some time searching the area east of the Gorge and toward the saddle between the two peaks. They then joined still another group headed by Col. James Irwin and including Eryl Cummings, Marvin Steffins, Ray Anderson, and climber Bob Stuplich. This latter expedition was even allowed to make plane trips around the mountain. The plane made four circuits at 11,000, 12,000, 13,000, and 14,000 ft. elevation, with several hand-held cameras on board. Unfortunately, their photos showed no objects of interest. Neither did their ground search, which explored the east side of the Ahora Gorge and toward the saddle. A final group intended to make a late-season attempt as the ICR group left the mountain, and as of this writing have not returned.

The obvious thought has now crossed each explorer's mindÔÇöperhaps the remains of the Ark are not really on the mountain at all. Yet the overwhelming evidence remains.3 Something must be up there. But where? Seemingly, every possible location has been checked. On the other hand, it may be that our methods are no longer productive. Since none of these difficult and expensive foreign expeditions have been fruitful, in part due to their inability to spend large amounts of time on the mountain, perhaps it is time to turn the search over to the actual inhabitants, who have ready access to the mountain.

Just such a solution has been proposed and is being carefully considered. An ICR supporter has recently pledged a substantial sum of money to be offered as a reward to any Turkish discoverer of the Ark. The money would be placed in a Turkish bank and would be released once an ICR observer has documented the discovery. Until the Ark is found, no money would be spent and no lives endangered. If accepted, the offer will be extended to the proper Turkish groups within the next few months.

Those who might question such a plan should bear in mind that the combined expenditures of just this one summer's various expeditions totalled well over a quarter of a million dollars. A reward may well be a better use of limited finances, and seems now to offer a greater chance for success. Readers of Acts & Facts will be kept apprised of events as they occur.

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Hope that clarifies things for you...

[Eclipse]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kiran:

As per DraconisRex's request, this thread is for all questions biblical. Keep the gloves on. Here's a few thoughts to get you started.

1. Where did Cain's wife come from?

2. Was the world really created in six days, or is that figurative language?

3. What were the 'leviathan and behemoth' and where'd they go?

4. Revelations...explain it...

5. Did God really stop the sun?

that's just a few to get you thinking...Enjoy!

I'll be back

---

1. Cain married his sister. Not uncommon considering the number of people alive at that time.

2. based on the language "the evening and the morning" used after each day of creation would seem to point to literal days.

3. Probably dinosaurs, though I've heard some translate it as Satan(the info on this is a bit sketchy in my opinion.) I've also hear this interpreted as Hippos and Crocodiles. If thats the case they are still here if dinosaurs, then they have either died out or are extremey rare.

4. Well... Revelation is full of symbolic language and as such unless we are given clear definitions as in Revelation 1 in dealing with the seven candlesticks and seven stars, it is difficult to be entirely dogmatic about the interpretation. Overall it has a quite impressive listing of its transmission followed by the comission of John. Then it goes into letters to the churches which has also been intrepreted as being the different portions of the church age. Next of course are the judgements on the inhabatents of earth followed by the return of Christ to reign. It ends with the admonition that Christ is coming quickly. Thats a brief summary.

5. I'm assuming that you are refering to Joshua, if so this is most likely refering to the earth ceasing rotation for that space of a day.

[DraconisRex]

Eclipse:

quote:

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1. Cain married his sister. Not uncommon considering the number of people alive at that time.

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My only problem with this theory is that the Bible clearly says, after Cain had slewn Able:

Genesis 4

quote:

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13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch

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Cain was no longer in God's graces, and was banished from Eden entirely, which means:

a) God had made Cain his own wife, or;

One of Adam and Eve's daughters had made the same level of mistake, and was banished also, or;

c) Cain got his wife from local inhabitants that existed before the world was made, or;

d) He found a Darwinistic monkey that was almost human.

In any event, it still begs the question: Who and what was Cain's wife?

(Kiran: You're not the only one lacking a life... LOL)

[d8alus]

Just real quick, then I won't post till I've researched tomorrow....

Adam and Eve lived 900+ years...they had 'many sons and daughters' that counted centuries as we count decades...so Cain's wife could believably be generations removed from himself.

[DraconisRex]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kiran:

Just real quick, then I won't post till I've researched tomorrow....

Adam and Eve lived 900+ years...they had 'many sons and daughters' that counted centuries as we count decades...so Cain's wife could believably be generations removed from himself.

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As far as I can tell, the Bible doesn't tell us how long Cain lived, or even that he died. There are certain sects that believe that Cain is the father of all vampires, if one can believe such rubbish.

They claim that the "mark" that God gave him was one that permitted eternal life, but at the price of his soul. Punishment is reserved to God, in His own way, in His own time...

Just another bit of (probably) useless information from your's truly....

[Raven]

So vampires are rubbish, as, no doubt, are diablarists, demons, and similar creatures that traditionally had a place in the Christian mythos. On the other hand, you believe in such events such as the sun stopping in the sky, people living for hundreds of years, and similar nonse... I mean absolutely factual information that can be derived from an oral history of highly reliable children's tails (and not just any book of children's tails, but one which disdained the use of vowels no less).

I'm sorry, I'm a skeptic, but there is more reason to believe in vampires then a series of legendary events that lack even the paltry evidence that suggests the existence of modern supernatural manifestations. And even if some of these stories have a basis in fact (as most myths do, I admit, though often only the very barest link to the real event) how accurately do you think they were retold, and how many were added or left out by creative storytellers trying to please there audience? Such information is worse then hearsay.

[Eclipse]

quote:

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Originally posted by DraconisRex:

Eclipse:

quote:

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1. Cain married his sister. Not uncommon considering the number of people alive at that time.

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My only problem with this theory is that the Bible clearly says, after Cain had slewn Able:

Genesis 4

quote:

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13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch

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Cain was no longer in God's graces, and was banished from Eden entirely, which means:

a) God had made Cain his own wife, or;

One of Adam and Eve's daughters had made the same level of mistake, and was banished also, or;

c) Cain got his wife from local inhabitants that existed before the world was made, or;

d) He found a Darwinistic monkey that was almost human.

In any event, it still begs the question: Who and what was Cain's wife?

(Kiran: You're not the only one lacking a life... LOL)

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Actually there is no problem with Cain marrying his wife.

We are not told how old Cain was hen he killed Able. It is quite possible that he was already married at this time.

According to the Wycliffe Bible Commentary this question is answered by saying "It does make clear that many other sons and daughters were born to Adam and Eve. It also presents a lapse of many years (maybe hundreds of years) before Cain's marriage experiance... By the time Cain was ready to set up a home, Adam and Eve had numerous descendants. It is not at all necessary to imagine another race of people already well established in the world, Cain's wife was one of the family of Adam and Eve."

[DraconisRex]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dragon Lady:

So vampires are rubbish, as, no doubt, are diablarists, demons, and similar creatures that traditionally had a place in the Christian mythos. On the other hand, you believe in such events such as the sun stopping in the sky, people living for hundreds of years, and similar nonse... I mean absolutely factual information that can be derived from an oral history of highly reliable children's tails (and not just any book of children's tails, but one which disdained the use of vowels no less).

I'm sorry, I'm a skeptic, but there is more reason to believe in vampires then a series of legendary events that lack even the paltry evidence that suggests the existence of modern supernatural manifestations. And even if some of these stories have a basis in fact (as most myths do, I admit, though often only the very barest link to the real event) how accurately do you think they were retold, and how many were added or left out by creative storytellers trying to please there audience? Such information is worse then hearsay.

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I've done a lot of Bible studies (almost became a Baptist preacher, as a matter of fact), but I have too much of a science background to ingore evidence. Besides the possible finding of the ark, and certain other events that seem to have taken place, I find myself questioning the Bible as the sum-total of all human knowledge and existance, before the time of Moses.

Moses was an adopted Egyptian, and had access to their libraries. The Egyptians had trade agreements with the Chinese, so the Egyptian libraries would have most likely contained copies of the Sanskrits.

Remember I was talking about differing histories before Noah? All of the religions on Earth that are older than the story of Noah contain have a story similar to the flood. But I have found only one that has anything like Adam and Eve. The Sanskrits.

Let's assume, for argument's sake, that Adam and Eve were the first two people on Earth, and that their generations are the sum-total of all life on Earth. They would be a close-knit family, even after 1,000 years. Kids would move away from home, but not that far -- they still have to be trained by their forebears, and they would have to trade supplies with each other to survive, especially after they figured out the wheel. Even after 2,000 years, they wouldn't be more seperated than a 1,000 miles, because they would want to stay relatively close to each other.

Then one day, they beome captives of the Egyptians. Who have trade agreements with the Chinese, who are a couple of thousand miles away. But by this time, they have boats, which isn't all that unusual, but what is unusual is that the Chinese are vastly different in appearance and speech.

I have yet to find a Creationist that can connect the Chinese or any of the Americas' Indian tribes to the lines of Adam, in terms of logic and believability.

Here's where it gets weird, though. There is reason to believe, at some point in history, that the Egyptians had trade relations with the Inka empire. But that would be impossible, based on their respective distances. I've read theories stating that the whole land-mass of the world was at one time connected, but I don't believe it was in the time of man, or at least during the history of the Bible.

Now, I don't discount the possible existance of vampires, werewolfs, etc., simply because all the races of man have similar stories. As culture intermingles, however, facts get distorted, which also, no doubt, happened to the Bible, at least before Moses' scribes finally wrote it down.

At the same time, if Moses decided one day to free his people, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he took the entirety of the oral stories told, and created a new religion from scratch. With access to the Sanskrits, and some of its stories, and histories revealed by the Israelites, such a religion would be easy to create. Giving hope to a rag-tag group of ex-slaves would be extremely important to a leader.

Until the Israelites visitied Babylon, there were no devils in the Bible. There was a Lucifer, Satan, and a serpent. Nor did Hell exist at that point. Now, Babylon just happened to have a multitude of devils, demons, etc., and 11 hells. When they left Babylon, suddenly devils, demons, and the existance of hell all became problems for the Israelites. Coincidence? (I find it hard to belive that the Bible would have missed these important points....)

The Tower of Babel is an important cornerstone to multiple languages and cultures, as it clearly explained how these things happened. Since Israel was about to become a nation, knowing about differing cultures and nations would be very important to its rulers. Before this time, it didn't matter in the least to wonderers in the desert.

This doesn't make the Bible wrong about general accounts, but it does beg questions concerning the other races on Earth, and how they came to be. To me, it is the history and religion of Israel, but may not be the only culture that God created on Earth. To a King of Heaven, how many sons could He have made, in how many forms, on Earth, and beyond? I'm not qualified to say......

[Kevin Trotter]

I saw something on one of the Christian channels that offered this as eplanation of dinosaurs; they did exist but only 5 or 10 thousand years ago. The creationist do not accept carbon dating as a way to check the age of an artifact. They feel human and dinosaurs co-existed. They do not explain how all the dinosaurs died but man was left unharmed. Go figure.

[d8alus]

quote:

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From Webster's Dictionary:

Faith: n. trust, confidence; complete acceptance of a truth which cannot be demonstrated or proved by the process of logical thought;

the virtue by which a Chtistian believes in the revealed truths of God

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That being said, the Bible is an all or nothing belief. You can't just believe part of it. Also, if you believe it, you have to accept that an all powerful creator would not let His word be ruined by generations of paraphrasing.

Yes, it is just an account of Israel. More to the point, it is just an account of the lineage of Christ. However, if Adam and eve lived 900+ years and had around 100 kids that lived 900+ years and had 100 kids, etc. Don't you think the world would fill up pretty quickly?

I can say that I have never heard a logical explanation for the things in the Bible. I've never heard a logical refutal, either.

Don't know if I'll get around to researching today, gotta take my dog to the vet, but I'll try.

[DraconisRex]

I take the New Testament of Jesus Christ as Holy. I take the Old Testament as history, but not an all-inclusive account of everything that happened since the beginning of time. Where God is concerned in the Old Testament, it is Holy, but where man is concerned, along with his laws, it is Mosaic.

Do you see the difference? I have faith that God has given us His Word to be only part of what we need in this world. The Bible doesn't teach us how to read, do mathematics, make computers and cars, how to think, or even how to build an ark -- if it weren't for other texts, I wouldn't have any idea what a cubit was....

Unlike traditional Christians, I'm in no position to state, absoulutely, that the Bible is the only text that we need to live with God and Jesus in our lives -- that makes no sense, and even the Bible states (mildly out of context), "Obey the laws of your land," but how do you do that, if you can't read, and the Bible doesn't teach you to do so?

God is my Heavenly Father, and He calls me His child. He is also the King of Heaven. That being said, can I be other than a prince? Or my wife a princess? Jesus is heir to the throne, but I, like everyone who accepts God, is already in Heaven, if they only believe....

[Raven]

My question, then, is knowing as much as you do about the origins of Christianity can you except it as anything more then an artifact of a leader who wanted to bring some faith to his people and, eventually, a religious text that has been added to multiple times. You have to know as well as I do that there would be no need of divine power to convince people that kind of stuff was true, nor any real need to write down anything that even resembled fact in more then the most distorted way.

It's like that lovely article that someone (SC I believe) pointed us too in the aliens thread where the guy was discounting the UFO crash in Roswell. All you need is a few people willing to exaggerate, a few more willing to lie outright, and a climate in which those type of lies will be accepted as the truth.

[Charles Lindsey]

Ages ago I heard/read an explanation that in the first part of Genesis Adam and Eve refer to "mankind" and "womankind" and by the time they got to Cain and Abel they were now talking about specific people. This allows for "mankind" to name all the beasts and allows for Cain to go off and marry someone from somewhere else.

I do not believe in a literal six day creation. Did they even have months and years back then? A "day" was probably only the only unit of time they were familiar with when the story was first started to be handed down. Not at the time of transcription.

If dinosaurs didn't exist how come we got bones? Pretty good joke God played on us there. If they existed concurrently with man one would think there would be a mention in the bible.

Saw the Tower of Babel somewhere in here. Glad that was brought up. Might explain different dialects in the region. Good point about the Chinese having a 15,000 year written history.

Have seen some Discovery Channel show where there is evidence of a great flood. That's pretty cool. But if it wiped all of man but Noah and family why do we still have Asians and Africans and Europeans?

That's it for now. Perhaps my creaky brain will dredge up something else I half remember and I will ask.

[Raven]

Oh yes, I forgot about that. Another thing I simply adore about religion is that as soon as an idea becomes inconvenient it's ignored, interpreted to mean something else entirely, or is taken symbolically rather then literally. Reminds me a lot of our constitution actually...

(Recipe for volatile discussion: mix religion and politics, shake well, and stand back)

[DraconisRex]

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My question, then, is knowing as much as you do about the origins of Christianity can you except it as anything more then an artifact of a leader who wanted to bring some faith to his people and, eventually, a religious text that has been added to multiple times. You have to know as well as I do that there would be no need of divine power to convince people that kind of stuff was true, nor any real need to write down anything that even resembled fact in more then the most distorted way.

It's like that lovely article that someone (SC I believe) pointed us too in the aliens thread where the guy was discounting the UFO crash in Roswell. All you need is a few people willing to exaggerate, a few more willing to lie outright, and a climate in which those type of lies will be accepted as the truth.

---

The scrolls of the Bible were carried for many thousands of years, from generation to generation. There were councils held by Israelites, then later by the Jews (once they were a nation,) then, after the death of Jesus, that added to and subtracted from the Bible. What they were editing were books that were too superstitious, had too many miracles, and any mention that could even remotely be construed as reincarnation. (They missed one, and it's a doozy!) It was the council's beliefs that changed the original texts.

However, quite a few of these lost texts have been recovered, but will not be accepted by the Christian/Jewish communities simply because it's not in their Bible. Now, at what time did anyone authorize them to change the Bible to suit their own agenda? What right have they to dictate what my religion is supposed to be?

No Creationist that I have seen has convinced me by what the Bible says, that I or any other Gentile originated by the constricts of the Bible. If you're not Jewish, you're a Gentile. Period. No Creationist I've seen so far has convinced me that everyone on Earth originated from Adam and Eve.

Yes, Moses used his texts as a controlling force of his people. But there is a lot more to it than that. That's the political end....

You have a good point about exaggeration, lying, and the right climate. By the same token, the government can use the same controls on its own people to hide facts; fear of reprisal is an excellent imperial control.

quote:

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Ages ago I heard/read an explanation that in the first part of Genesis Adam and Eve refer to "mankind" and "womankind" and by the time they got to Cain and Abel they were now talking about specific people. This allows for "mankind" to name all the beasts and allows for Cain to go off and marry someone from somewhere else.

I do not believe in a literal six day creation. Did they even have months and years back then? A "day" was probably only the only unit of time they were familiar with when the story was first started to be handed down. Not at the time of transcription.

If dinosaurs didn't exist how come we got bones? Pretty good joke God played on us there. If they existed concurrently with man one would think there would be a mention in the bible.

Saw the Tower of Babel somewhere in here. Glad that was brought up. Might explain different dialects in the region. Good point about the Chinese having a 15,000 year written history.

Have seen some Discovery Channel show where there is evidence of a great flood. That's pretty cool. But if it wiped all of man but Noah and family why do we still have Asians and Africans and Europeans?

---

If you translate Genesis 1:1 literally, you get ÔÇ£In the beginning, gods created the heavens and the earths.ÔÇØ However, (and this confuses the point,) God is royal, and therefore plural, and both heaven and earth are of His making, therefore also plural. Which means mans and womans.... That makes for some interesting possibilities. Remember, we know that are planets around other stars ÔÇô If only 1% of the stars have planets, and only 1% of those support life, then there are 10 million stars supporting life in this galaxy alone. Carl Sagan said that he believed the number was closer to 10%.

As for the dinosaurs, they predate man. I do hear the Creationists stating that they were here at the same time as Adam and Eve and all that; I just don't buy it. Animals were made before man, folks, but how long before? ÔÇ£But they were killed off by the floodÔÇØ they say. Yes, the flood of planet-covering clouds caused by an asteroid hitting the ocean just off the coast of Greenland.

I don't know about the flood. History supports a flood, both geologically and by historic accounts. But the cultures that existed before then are vastly different, and the Chinese seem to be unaffected by it. Interesting contradiction....

The problem with the Old Testament is, well, it's old. The language is unclear, especially in the first books. Translators have been fighting with that mess for a couple of thousand years, and, as Douglas Adams said about the Hitchhiker's Guide, it ÔÇ£contains much that is apocryphal, or at least wildly inaccurate.ÔÇØ

When the Israelites were crossing the dessert, that cloud they were following had a tube at the front. The description sounds a lot like certain UFO ships being reported. Wouldn't that toss the scientific and religious communities on their holier-than-thou ears ÔÇô God is an alien! Well, the Bible makes it clear that God ain't from around here....

quote:

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Oh yes, I forgot about that. Another thing I simply adore about religion is that as soon as an idea becomes inconvenient it's ignored, interpreted to mean something else entirely, or is taken symbolically rather then literally. Reminds me a lot of our constitution actually...

(Recipe for volatile discussion: mix religion and politics, shake well, and stand back)

---

The Creationists have the same thinking about the scientists. In my thinking, you can't have science without religion, and you can't have religion without science. But, to coin a phrase, which came first: creation or evolution?

About your recipe.... Neither religion or politics are adaptable to the other ÔÇô they contradict each other, since politics says to lie, cheat, and win, and religion says tell the truth, be humble, and let man win.

A better volatile mixture would be one good scientist, and a Southern Baptist preacher, each having to prove their side to a council.... The war is on!

[Raven]

Well darling, it's simply lovely to be able to debate religion with someone who doesn't get hostile about it, thank you.

So as I understand it the old testament is based of a series of loosely gathered documents which have minimal demonstrable basis in fact, were passed on for a considerable amount of time as oral traditions which were no doubt distended till they only vaguely resembled whatever original event (if indeed there was an event) took place. And to make this worse they were use (by the person who had them transcribed to paper no less) as a means of controlling a population through difficult times, and then later edited, censored, and augmented by a series of councils whose purpose was most certainly not to assemble accurate information.

My apologies, but I'm a skeptic. There may have been a flood, it may have lasted a while (even 40 days and 40 nights), and some people and animals might even have survived in a boat (though I doubt they found themselves stranded on any mountain, there is only so much water on earth after all), and all of this could have happened naturally. Adam and Eve are, if you'll pardon me saying, a lot like every other creation myth I've heard. When it all comes down to it, everything could easily be the product of exaggeration (which we have to assume is human nature for such events) misunderstandings of natural phenomena (no doubt exaggerated after the first couple of repetitions) and plan old fashioned fabrication (for which there was plenty of motive).

And then add translational problems, and people interpreting it to mean whatever pleases them (and often whatever remains viable with current scientific knowledge), and you get a soup of who knows what.

Religion is a means by which a primitive (and please pardon the term, I'm not at all suggesting you're primitive) can understand (or at least pretend to understand) to world around them and to have some belief that they can influence events (generally by piety and praying and such not). It is also a means by which people assure themselves they will have justice, life eternal (this is a big one), and affirmation of there ideals.

People didn't question things then the way they question things now (or at least some of us question things now, my mother comes to mind as an example to the contrary, and her sister is worse still) and were therefore much more subject to manipulations through that type of myth. There is neither need for a god to explain religion, nor indeed anything besides primitive minds trying to come to grasp with the world around them and events they could neither understand, predict, nor control. I believe there is a Sherlock Holmes quote that reminds us that the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.

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The Creationists have the same thinking about the scientists. In my thinking, you can't have science without religion, and you can't have religion without science. But, to coin a phrase, which came first: creation or evolution?

---

Perhaps so, but science is fully justified in changing as necessary to keep up with research and evidence and such not, it's what science is after all. Scientists don't claim a single doctrine to be accurate and then twist it around to there views (or to fit available facts) but rather they form there views from what facts are available.

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About your recipe.... Neither religion or politics are adaptable to the other ÔÇô they contradict each other, since politics says to lie, cheat, and win, and religion says tell the truth, be humble, and let man win.

---

And that, darling, is because religion is a form of social control, effective because it promises inescapable justice and reward to those who are willing to believe.

quote:

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A better volatile mixture would be one good scientist, and a Southern Baptist preacher, each having to prove their side to a council.... The war is on!

---

Well daring, I wasn't so much saying that religion and politics were incompatible as they were both subjects most everyone has a strong opinion about.

[DraconisRex]

"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." - Ford Prefect, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

The problem I have with specific years and lifespans in the Old Testament is that it doesn't match with scientific facts, no matter how hard the Creationists try to bend the facts around it. I guess they're drinking Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters, because time does matter. Science is an ever-changing fact-finding mission, and Creationists, despite their disdain for science in general, use science to try to prove their facts (Doctors of Christian Science still have to have science, even though it is night-and-day compared to traditional college.)

Creationists have proven to my satisfaction that this planet was built, but the star-stuff in the immediate area was not -- those items are billions of years old. I do argue with their time-dating methods, but not the results. Interesting implications there....

Mankind in his present form was not on this planet before 26,000 years ago. He lived in caves then, but had no knowledge of tools, clothes, etc. However, 21,000 years ago, he suddenly had stone-knives, basic (very basic) wooden houses, and basic writing in picture form on cave-walls. In 5,000 years, he went from a stupid animal to one that could learn. Can evolution explain this? Not really. But gene alteration can.

I don't believe mankind, even as an animal, could survive the iceages that are normal for this planet. This heatwave we've had for the past 50,000 years is abnormal, because usually we're covered in ice. Underground housing would work -- but animals aren't that smart.

(Speaking of iceage, if scientists are right about their observations, the next one will start around 2100 A.D. Another one of those potentially useless facts. That is, however, one of the reasons I push so hard to colonize at least this solar system.)

Legends are so much fun. Let's take Atlantis, for example. (This is more like a guided tour to the inner workings of my mind, but humor me...) About 5,000 years ago, it sank to the bottom of the ocean (I assume the Atlantic, based on its name.) Now, according to the legends, it was an advanced civilization that existed for thousands of years. Nations had trade arrangements with this island, per the legend.

Here's where it gets interesting -- the Egyptian pyramids are dated at over 10,000 years, but the Pharaohes were burried in them starting 5,000 years ago. Based on that, it is doubtful the Egyptians built them. Further, all the pyramids have the same general inclination, and face true (or is it magnetic?) north. You'll notice that none of the Egyptian pyramids have the capstones, which begs the question: what were they used for?

Now, based on this, I would assume that Atlantis was the agent that helped Egyptians trade with the Inka Empire. Technology abounded back then -- they found a working DC Battery in one of the Egyptian pyramids. It was fundamental, but the thing worked.

Then it comes back to the Chinese, who confuse the issue of time and this planet considerably. They've had so many wars, that much of their history has been lost. So many different emperors in charge, that documents needed have been lost, as they have a tantrum over what the former kings have done. Still, we have a written history from them for over 15,000 years. But no mention (to my knowledge) of Atlantis. Neither with the Israelites, or most of the factions in that region.

That defies logic. If the Israelites were the only people here, then they would have to be in-touch with the entire planet. But they didn't know about Egypt until they were slaves. Which is why I argue that God can create as many peoples as He wants to. We really don't know in exacting detail what God has done. "Proof denies faith. So man then proved that black is white, and got run over at the next zebra crossing."

I have faith that God did what He did. Period. I just don't accept the Old Testament as an absoultely accurate account of the entire history of mankind. Of the Israelites? Maybe -- but remember, they had their politicians too....

[d8alus]

So you say that you believe in God, believe that He made everything, but don't believe that the bible, which He calls His word, is true? I'm confused. Which begs the question, do you believe that Christ was who he said he was and that he spoke the truth always?

What reference to reincarnation?

[DraconisRex]

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Originally posted by Kiran:

So you say that you believe in God, believe that He made everything, but don't believe that the bible, which He calls His word, is true? I'm confused. Which begs the question, do you believe that Christ was who he said he was and that he spoke the truth always?

What reference to reincarnation?

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Research John the Baptist, in extreme detail. Post your findings.

Christ is in the New Testament, which verifies the prophecies of His coming. The New Testament is not history, but fact. The New Testament has been been declared sacreligious by the Jews, who are its intended people. They follow only the Old Testament.

I forsake them for this, and can safely (as a Gentile) ignore the precepts (the Old Testament) they have set. I follow the Gospel, or Good News, of Christ, not the old news of the Old Testament. If God said it or did it, I abide. Otherwise, you can take Mosaic law (which I will not follow, and neither will the current Jews) and find something to do with it.