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What it means to be poor


jamotto
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Really? It's wrong that I don't want to have my money taken away from me and given to someone else? You are going to dictate that if I make "enough" by your standards, I HAVE to help someone? And if I make more each year, the ammount looted from me increases. And me protesting that is wrong?

By what RIGHT do you take what is MINE? By your claim of social wellfare? You do realize what private property is? You do realize that whatever you TAKE from someone without their consent is called LOOTING.

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quote:

Really? It's wrong that I don't want to have my money taken away from me and given to someone else? You are going to dictate that if I make "enough" by your standards, I HAVE to help someone? And if I make more each year, the ammount looted from me increases. And me protesting that is wrong?

By what RIGHT do you take what is MINE? By your claim of social wellfare? You do realize what private property is? You do realize that whatever you TAKE from someone without their consent is called LOOTING.


Now see in ever said you had to give anyone anything maybe you should READ my post again?

BTW how is looting any diffrent from taxes? you make more they take more? you see so eaither way your in a lose lose situation. If it isnt welfare it'll be taxes which will be used for nothing short of anything the government see's fit....Are you going to go complain to them?

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Taxes is looting.

Where do you think wellfare comes from? FROM MY TAXES. SO, the more wellfare they give out, THE MORE THEY LOOT FROM ME. The government DOES NOT have any money. They DO NOT produce it, they do not create value. All they do is PRINT the paper. The REAL VALUE of the dollar comes from YOU, the individual. You are the one who creates the wealth, you are the one who produces. Each dollar the government prints, delutes the value of the one you have in your hand. What that means is, with each dollar printed, you can buy LESS with the one you have. That's why the government taxes you, because if they just print new money without collecting the ones you have, the INFLATION would go through the roof.

Here's an example, if there was no taxes, it would mean that you would walk away with $100,000 dollars at the end of the year (to make math simple). Now the government needs to spend, so they print $30,000 dollars (to replace what they would have otherwise collected from you). The net result is 30,000 that would have been collected from you, PLUS 30,000 printed, that's 60,000 new bills on the market. Instead, they collect 30,000 from you and print print 10,000 of theirs to have the net result of $40,000 for them to spend (which is more than the original 30) with ONLY 10,000 new bills out. See, the inflation is the total ammount was deluted by 10,000 instead of 30,000, AND they got more to spend at the same time. THE COST, That 30,000 they took from you. YOURS, and given NOT for maintenace, infrastructure, military, and only basic government spending, but SPREAD ALL OVER, and given to those that have NOTHING to do with government. Why do you think you are getting taxed THAT MUCH. Because of all the spending that SHOULDN'T BE there at the first place. Wellfare state, social projects, freeways going nowhere, bridges leading to islands with 3 houses on them, pork barell spending, and in the pockets of the politicians.

Am I going to complain to them? ROFL, we will see if we there's the need to complain...all has it's proper time.

[ 09-09-2005, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: Soback ]

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Actually, in that example, if the government just printed money without collecting taxes, that would be $30,000 new bills deluting your $100,000.

If they collect $30,000 from you, and print $10,000. That's 10,000 new bills on the market delutig your $100,000 (as opposed to 30), and on top of that $40,000 as opposed to $30,000 for them to spend.

So still the same point. Just the math was a little off.

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quote:

Taxes is looting.

Where do you think wellfare comes from? FROM MY TAXES. SO, the more wellfare they give out, THE MORE THEY LOOT FROM ME. The government DOES NOT have any money. They DO NOT produce it, they do not create value. All they do is PRINT the paper. The REAL VALUE of the dollar comes from YOU, the individual. You are the one who creates the wealth, you are the one who produces. Each dollar the government prints, delutes the value of the one you have in your hand. What that means is, with each dollar printed, you can buy LESS with the one you have. That's why the government taxes you, because if they just print new money without collecting the ones you have, the INFLATION would go through the roof.

Here's an example, if there was no taxes, it would mean that you would walk away with $100,000 dollars at the end of the year (to make math simple). Now the government needs to spend, so they print $30,000 dollars (to replace what they would have otherwise collected from you). The net result is 30,000 that would have been collected from you, PLUS 30,000 printed, that's 60,000 new bills on the market. Instead, they collect 30,000 from you and print print 10,000 of theirs to have the net result of $40,000 for them to spend (which is more than the original 30) with ONLY 10,000 new bills out. See, the inflation is the total ammount was deluted by 10,000 instead of 30,000, AND they got more to spend at the same time. THE COST, That 30,000 they took from you. YOURS, and given NOT for maintenace, infrastructure, military, and only basic government spending, but SPREAD ALL OVER, and given to those that have NOTHING to do with government. Why do you think you are getting taxed THAT MUCH. Because of all the spending that SHOULDN'T BE there at the first place. Wellfare state, social projects, freeways going nowhere, bridges leading to islands with 3 houses on them, pork barell spending, and in the pockets of the politicians.

Am I going to complain to them? ROFL, we will see if we there's the need to complain...all has it's proper time.


Don't need to its all there buddie im done with this convo PEACE!

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quote:

Originally posted by Soback:

Taxes is looting.

While I'm no proponent of higher taxes, your statement goes too far. This government needs taxes in order to function properly, to pay for the Military, FBI, CIA, FDIC and yes social programs like Social Security, Welfare and the like. A society that operates with zero safety nets risks things like the Great Depression. The Great Depression bred things like Hitler, Stalin, Mousellini. As much as we WOULD LIKE everyone in the world to be like us, industrious, independant, self reliant, we must face the truth, and the truth is that most people are Sheep, blindly following what others tell them to do. They NEED others to tell them what to do, because they can't make a decision to SAVE THEIR LIVES. Be glad that you're not one of them. Most poeple NEED Certainties, Guarantees and to be pointed in the right direction. For the rest of us there are only TWO Guarantees, Death and Taxes. Of that You can be sure! and no amount of griping and complaining will EVER change that so stop complaining about it.

My mother used to always tell me, NEVER complain about something that You or anyone else can't change, it's a waste of time and energy, and if you MUST complain, then complain with a solution at hand so that you at least come at the problem with a solution, instead of sounding like "another idiot that loves to complain".

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Great depression happened because of a lack of a social safety net? Really, so this country was BORN with a social safety net and that's why it became got built up? You think the settlers were compensated when the Indians attacked and ruined their settlements? You think the cities were collecting wellfare and aid when the floods hit? Or was everyone left to their own doings, enterprising, inventing, working, creating, building. And you were FREE to start a bussiness, to build a factory, to explore and settle the land, or to prospect new mine and hire workers, or to become a worker for lowly wage at someone elses mine. Social wellfare net NEVER existed in this country un till the 1900's and when it was institutionalized, the economy, the interpenuership, businesses and the lives of productive people, all started heading down hill (well, not for those who benefited from that wellfare, but we know who they are, and they are not listed in that sentence)

Here's how you can learn about the great depression, how it happened and why. Read up on abolishment of THE GOLD STANDARD. Ever heard a saying "Your money is not worth the paper it's printed on". That's where that saying comes from. To give you the briefest glimpse of it. Before the gold standard was abolished, the money the country circulated HAD to be backed up by the gold the country HAD. When the budget got tight for the government because of overspending, pork barelling, wellfare and the such, they couldn't back the funds with gold anymore, and abolishing it was the only way to go so that they could keep printing an unlimited ammount of money without backing it up. That gave them control to tax peolpe even more, to influence the economy and that's why we are in National debt up to the ears, paying almost 50% in taxes, and will never see the end till the whole system collapses, and people going back to the gold and silver monetary system, be it in hard currency or paper backed up by gold and silver.

[ 09-10-2005, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Soback ]

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And that's is why I said "Am I going to complain to them? ROFL, we will see if we there's the need to complain...all has it's proper time." UnderLord. So you saying that I am the guy who will be killing innocent people, is a bit of a jump, or rather a huge leap.

Posted by UnderLord: "Don't need to its all there buddie im done with this convo PEACE!"

So you should be done, BUDDIE, or rather BUDDY(ahem..., talk about bettering one self, starts with learning to express one self, but I gues for some, why write a paragraph when an incoherent, misspelled sentence with no foundation for back up will do as long as you get to call another, the crazy guy shooting up the supermarket, and keep on. Here's an advice, put your hands over your ears and continue on saying that. Behave like a child = get treated like a child)

[ 09-10-2005, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Soback ]

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The CONSTITUTIONAL government does NOT need Income taxes, as a matter of fact, it does NOT collect taxes AT ALL.

When the constitution was written, the federal government was meant to be SMALL, and have very little power, the ONLY money that it collected was based on tariffs of imports.

If the nation went to war, the states would finanance it, and build armies to supply that war.

There would be a TEMPORARY federal Army, and then when the war was over, the federal army would be disbanded back to the states.

A FEDERAL government that would have STAYED within the constitution would NOT need to LOOT 30-50% of the income of it's citizens.

The more the country imported, the more money it would have.

Soback is absolutely correct, and it really angers me when a naturalized citizen knows MORE about our history then citizens that have been born in this country.

It is SAD, just sad, and at the rate the Federal Government is going, both Republican and Democrat, this country is going to explode.

The Democrats create racial and economic divisions, the Republicans open the borders to every illegal alien out there, and they both spend money that we don't have, and of course really doesn't exist.

It's ALL play money, built on a promise that is NOT backed by ANYTHING.

Trust the US government, they say what the dollar is worth, and you better hope that the house of cards they have built does not come tumbling down.

Because it is just a matter of time, the US dollar has lost an incredible amount of value, have you noticed the price of property?

Is it true that the value of the property has gone UP, or has the value of the dollar actually come down? I will give you 1 guess, and it is NOT that property is worth more.

Soback is absolutely correct, and soon, within the next 10 years or so, the entire house of cards will collapse, and I do so hope that when that happens, you A: have no debt, and B: own some HARD currency.

In other words, BACKED by gold, or just outright OWN gold. Otherwise, you are going to be screwed...

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Soback,

Don't complain about others not being able to spell and/or express themselves since you can't do it yourself. Your are the king of run-on sentences and poor grammar.

Having said that, I agree with most of your points. You are much better a student than I on political and historical perspectives. Perhaps.....if you weren't so adversarial, your message would spread farther.

Soback, in every revolution, there is one man with a vision. You have that vision. Now, hone your skills so that you may actually bring it to pass.

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quote:

Originally posted by Teknocack Prime:

Soback, in every revolution, there is one man with a vision. You have that vision. Now, hone your skills so that you may actually bring it to pass.

Soback a visionary? Now I've heard it all!

Rationalizing poverty is like explaining why water is wet.

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quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

quote:

Originally posted by Teknocack Prime:

Soback, in every revolution, there is one man with a vision. You have that vision. Now, hone your skills so that you may actually bring it to pass.

Soback a visionary? Now I've heard it all!

Rationalizing poverty is like explaining why water is wet.


Grizzle.

let me give you a little hint...

THERE WILL ALWAYS BE POOR PEOPLE, and there have ALWAYS been poor people.

The war on poverty, has actually created MORE poverty, NOT less.

When you reward a behavior, you get MORE of that behavior.

WHen you a reward a single mom with welfare money, you are going to get MORE single mom's getting welfare money.

When you REWARD a behavior, you get more of it, and the government REWARDS poverty, therefore you do and WILL get more of it.

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Jag that is simply an oversimplication of a complex problem. You dont think that some poverty exists because of environmental factors? Lets look at predatory lending, placing payroll advance stores in areas where underemployed people reside, etc. Corporate America preys upon these folks in many ways.

Also this insistence on labling people as welfare mothers does a great disservice to people who use it as a way to get ahead. I actually have three of these welfare mothers on my payroll. Two of them graduated yesterday with Associate Degrees in Criminal Justice and the third is still in school. Have any of you folks who make these generalizations actually ever met any of the people you discuss and dismiss so easily?

Yes poor people have always been around. Yes SOME of them are lazy and shiftless (its been my experience in working with these folks for the las 20 years that very few of them want to stay on the government tit), but most just want something better for thier children. We will always have poor people as long as wehave everyone else dehumanizing them and marginalizing them and in the case of good ole American consumerism, bamboozling them

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quote:

Also this insistence on labling people as welfare mothers does a great disservice to people who use it as a way to get ahead.

A complete and utter fallacy. The very nature of welfare is to create a cylcle of dependency, NOT to get ahead. Instead of a temporary fix, it has become a way of life. One that removes dignity, shame, and motivation. Never has there been as damaging and detrimental stain on society as welfare.

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quote:

Originally posted by Prez:

A complete and utter fallacy. The very nature of welfare is to create a cylcle of dependency, NOT to get ahead. Instead of a temporary fix, it has become a way of life. One that removes dignity, shame, and motivation. Never has there been as damaging and detrimental stain on society as welfare.

EXACTLY right, which is why Darklings mother HAD TO CHEAT the system in order to get out of it.

It creates a cycel of dependancy on the government and to thos that keep that system in place.

In other words, it gives them a voter base, and by allowing those within the system to actually get out of it, destroys that voter base.

The BIGGER it is, the more votes they can get out of it in return, because the BIG bad republicans want to take away their welfare check.

Do you know that there were people that WOULD NOT leave New Orleans, because they were afraid that if they left, they would NOT GET THEIR WELFARE CHECK?

Insanity, total and COMPLETE insanity...

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quote:

Originally posted by Race Bannon IV:

Jag that is simply an oversimplication of a complex problem. You dont think that some poverty exists because of environmental factors? Lets look at predatory lending, placing payroll advance stores in areas where underemployed people reside, etc. Corporate America preys upon these folks in many ways.

Also this insistence on labling people as welfare mothers does a great disservice to people who use it as a way to get ahead. I actually have three of these welfare mothers on my payroll. Two of them graduated yesterday with Associate Degrees in Criminal Justice and the third is still in school. Have any of you folks who make these generalizations actually ever met any of the people you discuss and dismiss so easily?

Yes poor people have always been around. Yes SOME of them are lazy and shiftless (its been my experience in working with these folks for the las 20 years that very few of them want to stay on the government tit), but most just want something better for thier children. We will always have poor people as long as wehave everyone else dehumanizing them and marginalizing them and in the case of good ole American consumerism, bamboozling them

You don't believe in FREE WILL, Race? You can place 100 payroll advance stores around where I live, I will NOT go into one, I would rather BALANCE my budget instead, because I KNOW what credit is. However, you can have 1 payroll advance 50 miles away, and those who DO use them will all flock to that one. Free choice Race, it's a wonder isn't it. Same goes for predatory lending by the way, you KNOW what a loan is, and you don't need to be a genious to figure out how much interest you are paying and how much money you are earning, it's addition and subtraction Race. BY YOU saying that those people are prayed on, YOU are the one doing them a disservice by dismissing their free will and saying they are going into those pay advance stores just because there's A LOT of them around, and YOU dissmissing their intellingence and confusint it with their WANTS when they blindly apply for that predatory loan, closing their minds to the fact that they can't AFFORD it.

It's like when those fat kids sued Burgerking for being fat, claiming they were DRAWN to their food and had NO CHOICE. THEY LOST the case, Race.

Now, what's wrong with the wellfare mother statement? PC BULL. That's all it is. Wellfare mother, is a mother who had a child she CAN NOT AFFORD TO RAISE, just like those pay advance stores and predatory loans, people who use them majority of the time, can't AFFORD them. Now let me tell you how Jaguar is right when he says that the wellfare state CREATES MORE of those wellfare mothers.

So the mother has a child, and goes on wellfare to support that child (meaning WE pay for her living). It's a disgrace, because it's a safety net for her, and she KNOWS she can relly on it even BEFORE that child is concieved (says a lot about what people want and closing their minds to choices that they KNOW they SHOULD be making, like protection for example, or adoption when the first choice they made gave them the results they didn't want). THAT is why you have MORE and MORE mothers on wellfare, because they close their minds to other options. They think that they can keep that child, because WE will take care of it. Would she STILL make the same choice knowing that we WOULD NOT?

I think you know the answer to that one, Race.

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Jag, I don't need any hints, thank you.

This entire argument is ridiculous and has devolved into something other than what I think Jamotto was attempting to present with the original post. It certainly wasn't about welfare, which I agree hasn't been successful.

On this too we agree, poverty always has and always will exist, which is why I won't even bother to pitch in my useless two cents on the subject.

Now maybe you'll understand why I said what I said.

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