Zane_Marlowe

That's fantastic! I always thought the HS transition could use a little spiffing up, looks great now! Cloaking too! ...and I can't believe you're going to make me upgrade my 1.7ghz Sempron processor to play this game! Oh well, these are the sacrifices we must make for our habit...

Rip is going to get his navigation and weapons skills up to speed, then we're going to get him into the advanced tactics curriculum we developed. He's currently registered and cleared for Level 2 at the website. So he hasn't got access to the documents yet, but I imagine that won't take too long to achieve. Anyways, we're going to try to meet again soon and get Rip the rest of his combat skills.

Alright Rip, Let's plan on about 7pm tonight (central time) and connect first on the 3000AD teamspeak server. Let this serve as an invitation to Medievh, Cedric, and Damier to join us if possible as well since the more we include, the better our odds will be in the final matches, and we need to get our guys online as fast as possible. Meet on TS at 7pm, and I'll have more instructions from there on how to access classified training materials from the ISS website, and we'll get you up to speed. If 7 needs to be earlier or later, let me know. Sound off guys, I don't have a phone bill to be wasted on this since I'm using broadband, but I'll be grouchy as though I did since attendence is important.

Alright, what about tomorrow night?

Hey Rip, yeah, we met online earlier, you on Central or Eastern time? Ben and I met at about noon central time and practiced a little. I'll login to a server and if you see me in the next few, we can try a few things.

I remember walking out of that movie taking a second look at everything and everyone, what a head trip. Same director that did Fight Club, but I can't talk about that.

I get the same error as Ben. On a related question, how are we supposed to know when this roll call goes into effect? Is the roll call emailed to us, or is it on some kind of schedule yet to be published? I'm trying to figure out how I'd know I was supposed to check the fleet db to answer this if it wasn't published in the forum as past roll calls have been.

That, Marvin, was HILARIOUS! Almost more funny (but not quite) was the look on Cmdr Marlowe's face when his weapons officer couldn't hit a juking shuttle to save his life. Wow, what a laugh. I have friends who are laughing at you right now who don't even play this game. Anyways, that was one for the books, here's to you for writing your way out of it man.

Yeah, I went into it thinking "gone in 60 seconds," and came out thinking "pirates of the caribbean." The hottie is the same girl who played Helen in Troy by the way.

quote:Originally posted by Remo Williams: What I really don't want see is the end of the special roles ISS, Wraith and Orion have to offer GalCom.Completely agreed. quote:If I remember correctly ISS had a station assigned to it in the SP universe out near Orion in the Tau Ceti system, which basically put them on the front line with Orion along with the ISSÔÇÖs many duties in Sol.I know about the base at Saturn/Titan, I'll have to go find out about this one you're mentioning, it's the first I've heard of this. quote:What I'm going to suggest for the ISS role in MP anyway is that they have their own station as assigned already plus they maintain a contingent on all GalCom Station thus their name In - System - Support Fleet with the emphasis on the support role. This will allow them to carry out their Intel and Support ROE in all GalCom Regions plus maintain there own region. Thus youÔÇÖre on the frontline for GalCom and carry out the ISS special purpose ROE for GalCom also. That sounds much like what I was thinking as well.... Hey... Good gracious, Remo and I are on the same page! I always dreamed this day would come Cheers man, this one's on me.

Well, if you remember the beginning of this post, this basically came from a recruiting problem. There are people who passed on ISS and went to Prime who told me when I asked why that, "I don't want to be guarding the home fires, I want frontline action." There are also people who sought us out in ISS because of CIOPS (spy enthusiasts) and those who almost signed up with ISS until they learned that Wraith was where the SpecOps was (at first thinking it was CIOPS). What that demonstrated to me was two things. Firstly, that first impressions count, and that ISS was being seen as essentially a backburner fleet relative to a frontline fleet like Prime. Now it's to your credit that you have organized and done as well as you have. That's why you keep cadets, and that's part of why you get your recruiting numbers. Another part is that SC is officially a member of your fleet, and another part is that you're not officially "guarding the home fires." It's not one or the other, it's all three, and if I didn't have this experience a number of times, I wouldn't have spent time thinking, researching, and posting PM's to SC. Now the thing I'm suggesting changes to is not simply a ROE. That would make no difference if we were already going to be redefining Wraith and ISS as modular frontline fleets like Prime. The suggested change is to the actual fleet's mission itself. Reread the fleets FAQ where each fleet is defined in its purpose, mission, and role. That's the thing that would change. That's the thing people read and say "I'd rather be at the tip of the spear, and that looks like Prime." Why does it look like Prime? Because Prime's been defined that way, and while it didn't matter when fleets were focused on RP, now that the focus has changed to MP and we're actually trying to field teams of players, it's come to matter a great deal. Let me reiterate, I think Prime has a lot for us to emulate: you guys are doing it right. It is we who may need to reinvent ourselves in some way in order to attract recruits. The way that's been suggested by SC is a good one. However, if we lose the distinct advantages we have now, then we lose something that drew people into the fleet in the first place. With respect Remo, I realize that you're tiring of the discussion, but in fairness, you're not really being asked to do anything, and there's nothing at stake for your fleet in this discussion as has already been observed. I agree that if we want a ROE that includes fleet elements, then we can and probably should build it ourselves. But let's not forget that the thing on the table is not Prime and MP games, it's fleets with supporting roles considering how they might (or whether they should) successfully transform themselves into frontline fleets without losing the distinctive character that won them the recruits they already have. My existing suggestion is that support fleets like Wraith and ISS consider remaking themselves as frontline fleets, except that they keep the GALCOM specialty for which they are known by including that specialty in a wing within the fleet. That's how those specialty's are represented now, but the difference between my idea and SC's (as I understand his idea) is that in SC's concept, Wraith and ISS would lose their special emphasis on SpecOps and Intel since, like Prime's organization, those functions would be handled internally for every fleet. The reason I would be reluctant to give up those specializations is because that's what attracted our recruits, and those specializations are what we contribute to GALCOM overall (i.e., the specializations aid in interfleet cohesion). If what I'm trying to ask about is unclear, then ask me about it, but this thread has wandered now to both RP and MP aspects of this game when it's not really about either of them. Very simply, it's about the concept of these fleets that makes them appealing as entities within either of those two kinds of gameplay. Respectfully submitted for comment.

Hey Mr. Crowley, First, go check out the game and get it patched up so you can see it first hand. Your investment is about $20, and you could do a lot worse for that kind of money. Ultimately that's going to be the judge of whether or not you want to start your friends on this. Second, to answer your questions in brief. The online component is evolving, and because the game was released by the publisher before it was finished by the developer, the MP component was unfinished. Shortly (within a week some say?) there's going to be a patch that fixes some bandwidth caps that produce some erratic behavior in the client, and then the game's going to run SWEET. The game can support 64 players, but nobody here's tested it that high, so you would give us an excellent test case. The game's primarily a single player game, and the MP component takes place in a smaller "galaxy" that people can do sandbox types of stuff in. There are full planetary zones with bases, all possible terrain, and all the same kinds of features in the SP game. Unfortunately there are no CTF, Seige, or other kinds of games besides a basic "kill the enemy" kind of thing, but the server doesn't keep kill stats (there is a svr log that records who kills whom however). However, what you liked about T2 is here in spades. The best game experiences to date have been large fleet engagements with capital ships and fighters engaging one another, doing inter-system jumps trying to hunt down the other player fleet, trying to penetrate orbital defenses to drop shuttles into planetary atmosphere, etc. This is a game whose lateral possibilities haven't fully been explored since the MP game's got all the control of the SP game, and both allow for a degree of control over deployed AI fighters, vehicles, and personnel that is pretty unique. (I should mention that when I first got this game, my computer didn't run it so well, so I looked around for another game that would give me what this game does in a package I could use, but there's nothing out there that comes even close to combined arms battles across space, sea, air, and land environments that this game offers.) We haven't done a lot with the FPS part yet, but the issues there are also on the list of things the developer is fixing out of his own pocket, so we're pretty pleased that he's that committed and that we'll get that part ironed out in the course of things. The game is not moddable as far as models and physics go. You could import new sounds, and mess with some other things, but this isn't a game with an open SDK since Derek's an indie developer who would have to then support the SDK while he's trying to code his next games. You can host servers, and your OC3 hookups sound ideal. The game is available at bestbuy and EB Games both (at least in my area, I'm in Chicago). In addition, there are officially recognized "player fleets" whose members compete in regular matches against one another if you're interested in doing that (see the Fleets FAQ available from the link on this site's home page). If you guys have a webpage or other information, drop me a private message on this board so I can see how you guys are setup. If you're looking for a game that has more breadth than a FPS, this is it, and it's an easy game to get hooked on for that breadth alone.

Well, I've been spending some time thinking over these ideas, and something occurred to me in the shower this morning that I thought made good sense considering all the discussion so far. IMO, for fleets who desire to get into a "frontline" role (as ISS might, and Dreada seems to indicate Wraith does), then it makes a lot of sense to adjust those fleets' roles per SC's outline as stated above. However, it's also been the case that what recruits I've gotten (and some of those whom I know Wraith has attracted) have been recruited by the sense of specialization that Wraith and ISS have. Certainly it wouldn't make a lot of sense to be called the "In-System Support" fleet if logistics and intel support were no longer our role. So here's what I'd submit as a way of having the best of both. It seems very easy to reorganize fleet roles so that all the fleets are main battle fleets ala Prime, but we might preserve that specialization at the wing level. ISS is already in some sense doing this since CIOPS is a wing within the Fleet, but its other wings are mainline combat units. The difference in the new scheme is that ISS would have a frontline role, but would retain its intelligence specialization within a specific wing. Similarly, Wraith might have its WSOG group be the specialized SpecOps unit within a regular main battle fleet organization (I note that currently they have a marine unit and a fighter wing, but no CC wings). (ISS would therefore in theory have two specialized wings, CIOPS and a Logistics Support wing, but I don't think a logistics wing would have to be present in the fleet db since it's more of an RP concept and people sign up for action, not logistics.) Does this make sense? It seems to preserve the best of both worlds, as far as I can see, by retaining specializations that have attracted membership and given these fleets their distinct "flavor," but then also solving the MP tasking and recruiting issue by confirming these fleets in a frontline role per SC's post. I phrase this suggestion in the form of a request for comments since I'm not the FL for ISS (I've been waiting for Ben Z. to weigh in here) and since these are broad changes that would be somewhat permanent so I realize that we should move carefully. Let me know what you think.

That's actually probably my fault, but to be clear, the idea would be that we'd RP "in person" so to speak, since the environment is expansive enough to represent ship and planetbased situations. This is of course unrelated to the MP fleet matches (RP is not scored of course), and is does not imply any kind of "wishlist." As I said, rehabilitating RP is worth another topic thread. More later, I have to go teach philosophy now ZM

Actually Cedric, the way the game is currently, the server's got a 56k bandwidth cap: nobody's operating at any better than 56k, and it's definitely playable. Will you be able to meet us this weekend?

quote:Originally posted by DREADA: ps. Is no one interested in the related MP/RP scenarios discussed at the beginnning? I am, but let's pick that discussion up when we've got some consensus on the current matter of fleet roles.

quote:Originally posted by Remo Williams: Fleet Roles should remain as is, at least Primes will remain the same. ThatÔÇÖs all I have to say on that topic.I see little need for Prime to change what its role is, given its success in recruiting and its fitness for MP owing to its role as a frontline combat fleet. Who would want to change what works? The question is, will the other fleets remain as they are or will they essentially become frontline fleets like Prime (and Orion), dropping roles that are not "MP friendly," or keeping them and adding other roles that are. SC has suggested the possibility that all the fleets take the modular form (bringing specialized tasks in-house so to speak) that Prime has, and then be simply assigned to different sectors. As I said, I think that solve the practical problem of getting support fleets something to do in MP, but it also loses some of the specialization that gives a fleet a unique character relative to the other fleets. Can we preserve that uniqueness somehow? What if the fleets just added special taskings that required MP operations? For instance, what if Wraith were designated a rapid deployment force, and in fleet matches got to deploy closer to an objective, but were limited to only heavy cruisers or (in some circumstances) even super fighters? That would stay within their mandate as a SpecOps fleet (light and fast), and would require them to evolve tactics that reflected their fleet specialty in MP. I speculate because I'm not Wraith, and I'm not sure if that's at all appealing to them, but it does have the virtue of being 1) an extension of Wraith's current specialized tasking, and 2) immediately relevant to the kinds of MP play we do. Could ISS have a similar kind of tasking extension? Nothing jumps out at me just yet, but the idea in general of adjusting Fleet ROE at matches to accommodate the specialized strengths and weaknesses of a given fleet (as suggested in the Wraith exampe above) is interesting, I'm curious to see what you guys think, or what you might suggest or come up with in that kind of scheme. [ 11-16-2004, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Zane Marlowe ]

I should mention that it occurred to me to perhaps use the Fleet Action map I created as a way of structuring a new style of RP based around MP interaction, but, if Shingen will bear with me, let me call attention back to the question of how we could, should, or might restructure fleet roles. The RP question needs its own thread IMO since Fleet Roles transcend RP or MP per se. Should the fleets reorganize their taskings to allow for more universal access to MP opportunities? What about SC's idea? Personally, I like that each fleet has some kind of specialization, but of course that's not helping me recruit when ISS' specialization can't be represented in MP very well if at all, so I'm kind of 50/50 on that solution.

Excellent, I've been trying unsuccessfully to hook up with Damier, so I'm glad we have this time to do it. That is rather late here though on Friday night isn't it? 0800GMT is 2 in the morning here, and midnight for Damier. Man, this timezone crunch is a hassle, but I'm glad to see we're working it out.

Hi friends, This post emerged from a conversation I've been having with SC, and which he asked me to post to you guys for comment, and which he wanted to comment on as well. The topic was the difficult time we have recruiting given the shift in focus from RP (which was the original emphasis when the fleets were formed) to MP, and how we might address that difficulty for fleets whose roles were not well-represented by MP play. Comments as follows: quote: I've been researching the fleets and their original formation because currently it's essential to our recruiting efforts to have something we can claim to attract new recruits. Unfortunately for ISS, being a support fleet doesn't look all that sexy to recruits who are choosing a fleet. It made sense when the fleets were about RP, and none of the current fleet roles were favored by the narrative medium--everyone had their role to play, and they could make it look as sexy as they wanted, people were cooperating, and all this was happening within the larger context of the fully-realized SP universe. However, as the fleets have switched from RP to MP in focus, there is nothing for ISS (or Wraith for that matter) to do in fulfilling their role. MP games don't have logistics, and intelligence gathering (and stealth) is rather moot given the resources of TacOps. Of course the games are action-focused, not persistent world-focused, so this is a natural result of a specific design (let me be clear that this is not a wishlist). In the absence of the old forms of RP, and the action focus of MP, ISS (and Wraith) are essentially trying to compete with Prime and Orion in the realm of a main combat fleet. Which brings me back to recruiting. Why would anyone join a combat fleet whose role is to offer defensive support when you could join a frontline unit (i.e. Prime) that includes the game developer himself among its senior members? I'm kind of in a quandary here because while I'm getting ISS setup as a top shelf organization with Ben and Nick J, we're not getting recruits because Prime has a kind of built-in prestige that we can't compete with given the current focus of fleet activity.SC replied, quote: I see what you're saying but I can't think of any suggestions atm. If you come up with something, let me know and we'll discuss it.So, I replied with the following, and SC asked me to post it here for your comments. quote:There are two things that come to mind as I think on it. First, you yourself bring a lot of weight to a cadet's impression of the fleets. I have nothing against Prime, but would you [sC] consider (as GALCOM's SC) having a rotating membership of some kind in the GALCOM fleets? I think Prime in a lot of people's mind means "best" or "most important," which is not what that originally meant at its inception as a main battle fleet. (I was actually surprised to see ISS' prominence in the days of DeSylva, and the activity of RP fleets as I researched the old posts here, and when I reflected on why that was, I wrote the first of these posts.) The Fleets FAQ could be updated. Currently none of the fleet leaders are correctly listed in the FAQ, and we may want to have them put their heads together and come up with some changes to the actual fleet roles that are appropriate to both the game world and the real world gameplay representing it. Consider the current roles of these fleets. Prime (in my reading of the older posts) was kind of a fast attack fleet HQ'd at Earth, but mobile throughout GALCOM. Wraith was for SpecOps, ISS maintained defensive installations, non-Earth related Insurgent Suppression and Intelligence Gathering, and Orion was a heavy bastion fleet in the path of the now non-existent Gammulan fleets. This was the landscape in 3000AD in RP terms. The situation in the game world has advanced thirty years, we may want to get the fleet leaders together to update fleet roles and responsibilities accordingly so that all fleets have something to contribute to both RP and MP. I've also thought about rehabilitating RP by perhaps seeing it done in realtime with the lobby app since you already approved its distribution among active fleet members. I've also thought about RP actually conducted in MP conditions with people showing up in their ships and actually RPing what they're doing (perhaps including MP combat under controlled conditions). So this is my first go at it, let me know what you think.Something else I've been working on with Ben Z. and, on and off, with ShoHashi is some kind of spy game that would include CIOPS and Bishamon players trying to pass information over the internet without having it intercepted by the other fleet's counter-intelligence. In this way, CIOPS and Bishamon may have something important to keep them occupied in an RP kind of way, but CIOPS isn't ISS as a whole, and I have no idea how I would involve Wraith. This is another example of how and why we may need to adjust fleet roles in some way. I look forward to your comments.

Ah hell, I thought I would have made it in under the wire, but apparently Quazar's going to start showing up to fleet matches. Hope you're going to make this a regular habit if you're going to get the lobby app.

Hey Ben, Tried to get on the TS server, but my sound software's down at the moment (I've got an upgraded system now! Profile will reflect this shortly.) I should be able to make the fleet match tomorrow, but I may be a little late.

Just a note, Shingen's right that I WAS destroyed by a station, but that was after the match was over, and I did it on purpose since the ROE said it wouldn't count and I was experimenting with something. So I HOPE that's not reflected in the current info.

I play CoH, and while I've noticed that those who create heroes with copyrighted names get renamed "GenericHero" I'm not sure you can create a superhero game without using concepts present in all of comics. Marvel and DC should be suing each other if a character who is a "science tanker who moves like the hulk" is the definition of IP infringement.

I think you're right that the problem is not active RPers (or other contributors) who aren't multiplaying, but rather just not enough people who sign up are staying involved. I reread the regs (the Fleet FAQ) you referred me to, and that seems to be pretty clear that RP and involvement in RP-related stuff would be sufficient participation, although it does talk about RP and MP as reasons why you might want to join a fleet, not necessarily as sufficient reasons for retaining your fleet membership (i.e., a fleet might require or not require either one of those in order to sustain one's membership). I think this question came up in my mind when Remo wrote, "Members of Prime that haven't participated in the MP matches are not going to be fleet members any longer period." Now of course he's just referring to membership in Prime, but I wondered whether this was going to become fleet policy in general since he also wrote, "Maybe you all can take my lead on this and wipe your part of the DB clean except for your active MP members. Once thatÔÇÖs done start sending them PM's to remove your fleet info from their sig. If they don't do it then let me know I'll take it from there for you." Again, this is only his suggestion, but if this were to go through, I wonder if it would ultimately make the SP game and RP irrelevant to Fleet Activity. Thoughts? I'm not trying to criticize here, just see outcomes so everyone can make careful choices.