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Supreme Cmdr

Vanquish Multiplayer Game Mode

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Once the final 1.00.02 patch is released (probably at RC10 level), that will be the last extensive patch for the game. All future patches will be minor incrementals over a long period of time - similar to the BCM and BCM Gold patches.

To this end, mp in UC as of this patch, is good enough for those wanting to explore together, deathmatch, play co-op (where all players are of the same race/caste and take on NPCs with AG turned on etc).

However, I am considering implementing a sort of gameplay (Vanquish) mode (similar to Conquest for BF1942) whereby players battle for the control of spawn points in order to win the session.

Because the game tech does not have the concept of maps, there can't be any map rotation when a round ends. To this end, I'm thinking of just using the standard scenario timer to determine when the scores are being tallied, deciding which side won etc. and then awarding a victory point to the side which captures the most spawn points during a session (which may last up to 30 mins).

Of course this would work both in space and on planets and one thing I'm going to have to do, is to introduce a server side config which disables all cap ships. This way, only fp careers, vehicles, shuttles, naval units and fighters can be used.

Any thoughts? And please DO NOT ask for features - this is a PvP mp game mode I am THINKING of doing and I'm not in the mood to discuss wish lists which are NEVER going to be implemented.

/pre-emptive strike

NO, I'm not doing a CTF play mode

[ 03-18-2004, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

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Guest Blond_Knight

I like the idea of being able to disable Cap ships on the server side. Because Id really like to see more emphasis(player-wise) on the interaction and team skills of first person.

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Certainly sounds like a cool idea. Get some folks together, put together a small task force and storm an enemy spawn point. That'd be so cool!

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What if this conquest mode idea required you to capture a space station or city on the other guy's homeworld? That would require lots of effort to get all the way there, and it's a winner take all proposition.

I'm quite new by the way, so I haven't tried to capture a station in the regular game and therefore don't know if this is relatively easy or hard. However, the idea of capturing some feature that requires defending because it doesn't really fight back as much (as a station might) is the gist here. You could place whatever that thing might be in either the enemy's homeworld, or in each enemy system and make it a scoring match.

There's my $.02

Ben

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I am for anything that enhances multiplayer.Since you said 'NO NEW FEATURES' maybe you could be more specific on what could be added.

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quote:


Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

What if this conquest mode idea required you to capture a space station or city on the other guy's homeworld? That would require lots of effort to get all the way there, and it's a winner take all proposition.


Yeah, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

If a station (which it won't be, since nowhere did I say anything about station capture) is flagged as being the capture target, then obviously that scenario won't be for planet bound players.

quote:


Originally posted by Cc:

maybe you could be more specific on what could be added.


So read my first post again.

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Sounds cool, maybe what you could do is create a scenario that has several Mobil Forward bases over short distances and have a battle rage to capture as many as possible.

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I like the conquest concept of BF1942, but I think it DOESNT fit well as it is in UC.What I propose is to build missions where a mission zone (city,military) has to be invaded,taking the spawn point.A simple and defined mission objective, with a single or a couple spawn points to conquer.I mean that the spawn point be used as a tool to know when a team has acomplished their objectives,not to be used as place to appear as near as possible from the enemy.

In addition I find interesting the idea of mobile forward bases acting as MOBILE spawn points,so a team could choose beetwen spawning at their main base,with lots of resources at their reach, or into the MFB wich has moved into a more better tactical position.

Due to the colosal scale of UC "maps"the general idea of this kind of game would be based more into slow-planned form of play,in opposite to the fast-suicide form of BF1942.In 30 minutes of play a player should die an average of 2 or 3 times,no more.In real life you only have 1 spawn,the first one.

I dont know how this could be done in space.Say you need to control 3 or 4 spawnpoints inside a region,and the way to navigate between them should be putting a decoy(a fixed probe,cargo pod...) so you jump there targeting that decoy.If one of the spawn points is a Starstation,then the PTAs of the station should be of manual use only.They are too powerful to assault it with a pair of players.Cloak should be disabled.

Just my opinion

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quote:


Originally posted by GhostPilot:

What I propose is to build missions where a mission zone (city,military) has to be invaded,taking the spawn point.A simple and defined mission objective, with a single or a couple spawn points to conquer.I mean that the spawn point be used as a tool to know when a team has acomplished their objectives,not to be used as place to appear as near as possible from the enemy.


uhm, how is that different from conquest then?

quote:


Due to the colosal scale of UC "maps"the general idea of this kind of game would be based more into slow-planned form of play

Thats not an issue. The mp world in UC is the same one from BCM Gold. I am going to be reducing the size/scale/scope of those in the final 1.00.02 patch. So that would no longer even be an issue. The reason I ended up using the BCM Gold mp world is because - of course - there was no time for me to do UC specific ones given the publisher's desire to ship the game at all costs.

quote:


I dont know how this could be done in space.Say you need to control 3 or 4 spawnpoints inside a region,and the way to navigate between them should be putting a decoy(a fixed probe,cargo pod...) so you jump there targeting that decoy.If one of the spawn points is a Starstation,then the PTAs of the station should be of manual use only.They are too powerful to assault it with a pair of players.Cloak should be disabled.

You are worrying about things that are NONE issues.

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Originally posted by GhostPilot:

[qb]What I propose is to build missions where a mission zone (city,military) has to be invaded,taking the spawn point.A simple and defined mission objective, with a single or a couple spawn points to conquer.I mean that the spawn point be used as a tool to know when a team has acomplished their objectives,not to be used as place to appear as near as possible from the enemy.

uhm, how is that different from conquest then?

I mean I wouldnt want a MP game of UC convert into a "run for the damned flag before them" and "suicide yourself to get the flag cause all is ok you will spawn again" party.

Hope I have explained it correctly sir

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quote:

Originally Posted by Supreme Commander:

If a station (which it won't be, since nowhere did I say anything about station capture) is flagged as being the capture target, then obviously that scenario won't be for planet bound players.

Good point.

I was thinking more about this...

If the approaches to the spawn points are fairly linear, then capturing spawn points could create a kind of battle line that can move back and forth with the battle. If spawn points were planet-bound, one per planet, then because the transit options to the systems (jump point, flux field, etc.) are fairly linear and have their own chokepoints and strategic areas, the systems themselves would be taken with the planetary objective since the spawn point's former owners wouldn't be able to spawn in-system until they'd captured it back. In that case, systems themselves are the object of capture, and you win by taking the last spawn point on the enemy's homeworld.

I think the goal of "Vanquishing" the enemy's homeworld capital city has an appropriate scope that keeps with the scope of the rest of this game.

ZM

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quote:


Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

Good point.

I was thinking more about this...

If the approaches to the spawn points are fairly linear, then capturing spawn points could create a kind of battle line that can move back and forth with the battle.


Dynamic spawn points are out of the question.

The concept of spawn points in the game, is difference from other games. In this game, the spawn point is any object in the scene which has a /wp (wp = waypoint) tag in it. When you enter the game, you start at that waypoint. This is one of the problems in mp right now where several players starting together at the same station, end up colliding because the system picks the same waypoint (in the final patch, it will randomize them).

On a planet, the same applies. So, for mp, I have to disable the sort of wp handling and instead use either a specific object that is placed in the scene (similar to how all objects are in the scene. for an idea open up one of the .3DG files in the MODELS folder. Thats a scene with fixed objects. As you can see, there are objects like buildings, supply stations, djps etc in there. So, if I had someone create a 3D object, it would be placed in this scene as well.

Anyway, at this point, I'm not planning on going overboard. All I'm planning on doing is adding a more fun mp gameplay mode instead of the default co-op and deathmatch currently there. And how I plan on doing it is as follows.

  1. Add object spawn points in the scene. At least six will be placed around the base and in the space area.
  2. The idea would be to capture each of these spawn points, then all six in order to capture that base or space region.
  3. In order for a spawn point to be considered as captured, you have to be standing within a proximity of it (e.g. 2m) until a timer (e.g. 90 secs) expires. This timer would appear in everyone's HUD (crafts/vehicles/fp) as soon as someone steps in a contested spawn point. The more people standing near it, the faster the time will expire.
  4. Once all spawn points have been captured, the base - and all its assets - switch to your side. e.g. if Ter/Mil capture a Ter/Ins base (by taking all six spawn points), then all the assets there become Ter/Mil and no Ter/Ins players can spawn there any more.

All I have to do now is prevent cap ships from being used by people joining a server to play this kind of game, since this would just cause mayhem. I can't suppress this via a server side config because they it would prevent the use of cap ships in the other mp game modes. Once I can figure how to solve this, the rest should be fairly straightforward.

In fact, in the space aspect of the skimish, fighters, shuttles (pilots by SFMs) and SFMs will play a big role, since cap ships won't be used.

And naturally the marines on the ground will have to rely on their EFP counterparts to capture the space spawn points. Which could be fun, since you could have pilots get out of their gunships, grab a fighter and head off into space to capture a spawn point or something like that. Which of course means that each side has to have pilots. heh.

So, lets try and keep the discussion with the realms of what I have described and lets come up with a robust Vanquish game mode that is doable, playable and fun - with the rash suggestions (which I've had to delete since people don't get it when I make strong points about NO advanced/additional features).

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Guest Blond_Knight

Derek I know youve said you plan to retrofit some of UC's MP improvments into BCMG MP. Would this topic fall under that umbrella? Just curious.

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quote:


Originally posted by Blond_Knight:

Derek I know youve said you plan to retrofit some of UC's MP improvments into BCMG MP. Would this topic fall under that umbrella? Just curious.


No. I was talking more in terms of communications, not new features (e.g. chat, mp game mode etc)

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Hmm, alright, well here's what occurs to me.

First, I apparently misunderstood your first post because imagined something a little different than I think you first meant, but let me summarize briefly since it might have merit anyway and I promise I'll be brief.

Vanquish type 1 - Cap ships included (yes, it would cause mayhem, but I'd still like to see it, unless you mean software mayhem), multiple scenes (by which I take it you mean the space/planet region connected by jump points, wormholes, etc.), and a single spawn point in space and a single one on the planet. When both are captured, that system falls and you move to the next one. You can't spawn out of that system until you capture both. Go from scene to scene until you get all the way to their homeworld. If I understood your technical summary, this is possible isn't it?

Thoughts on Vanquish type 2 - This is a single scene game that includes both space and planetary points. I think one of the things you'd really want to do is set the planetary spawn points on different ends of the planet, because that forces the aggressor into space for transit, which means they would be vulnerable to the battle in space. You might have just one spawn point in space because that would give only one side the advantage of air superiority since they have a way to stay up there while their opponent has to come up from the ground. That single spawn point would be hotly contested in order to assure safe passage to and from each base for each team. If there were six such scattered bases, then the space spawn point would be very important while the main objective of the game is being pursued on the ground.

First thoughts...

ZM

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quote:


Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

Vanquish type 1 - Cap ships included (yes, it would cause mayhem, but I'd still like to see it, unless you mean software mayhem),


Cap ships will be disabled in Vanquish because they are too powerful and then everyone will want to use one. Couple that with the mayhem that will ensue when players decide to use AI troops - and you have a game that would be unplayable on anything but an OC-3 connection.

quote:


multiple scenes (by which I take it you mean the space/planet region connected by jump points, wormholes, etc.), and a single spawn point in space and a single one on the planet.

Thats not what I said about spawn points

quote:


When both are captured, that system falls and you move to the next one. You can't spawn out of that system until you capture both.

Thats not what I said.

quote:


I think one of the things you'd really want to do is set the planetary spawn points on different ends of the planet,


No, because then it would be impossible to move vehicles and gunships to the opposing side.

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Indeed sounds cool. The only thing you would have to prevent is the playing area becoming too large (but you thought of that one didn't you? ), but otherwise I don't see any reason not to like the game mode!

Will there be an option to set the amount of spawnpoints, so you can tailor the session to the amount of players, or will it automatically set an even amount of capture points to joined players in the session? Or maybe one spawnpoint less than players per side, so there's always a free roaming player.

Just brainstorming to help.

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quote:


Originally posted by Mordax Blyrr:

Will there be an option to set the amount of spawnpoints, so you can tailor the session to the amount of players, or will it automatically set an even amount of capture points to joined players in the session? Or maybe one spawnpoint less than players per side, so there's always a free roaming player.


Read my post about spawn points again.

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Indeed, I think that another mp mode would only add to the value of the game. However you decide to do this, I think it's a great idea!

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Sounds good.

quote:


The idea would be to capture each of these spawn points, then all six in order to capture that base or space region.


Will this take place in one region or will each region have six spawnpoints?

If each region has six spawnpoints then maybe you could have some sort of map rotation. Let's assume the six spawn points in the earth zone need be captured and after 30 minutes the six spawnpoints in the mars zone will be "activated" and you need to capture those.

(don't know how to get the MIM players to mars though)

Or one spawnpoint in each region and capture those.

If it's one region then it think keep it this way.

Sounds good.

Maybe a variation could be that team B destroys a starstation and a starbase of team A and team B wins and the other way around.

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quote:


Originally posted by Mano Faber:

Will this take place in one region or will each region have six spawnpoints?


I am currently restructuring the space/planet regions (making them smaller, closer etc) but the plan is to have more than six.

I had originally planned to have six per base, but that would too long an engagement. So, I'm going to have eight bases per planet. With each side having four each. With this setup, each base would have two spawn points. So each side will have eight spawn points per planet. So, for one side to win, it must capture all 16 spawn points. If by the end of the timer, all 16 are not captured, then the side with the most spawn points, wins.

As for space, there will be an additional two spawn points per region. These will have higher points if captured and will probably increase the EPs of all members of the capturing team. With higher EPs, team members will be able to use different vehicles they normally don't have access to (e.g. naval assets).

quote:


If each region has six spawnpoints then maybe you could have some sort of map rotation.


There is no concept of maps in the game. Did you forget? The world doesn't get re-initialized, everyone disconnected and reconnected at the end of a timer or victory condition. This is not BF1942

At the end of the Vanquish timer or victory condition, everyone is disconnected (as if you had died, you are not actually disconnected from the server), the spawn points reset, everyone gets back in the game. Rinse repeat.

quote:


Maybe a variation could be that team B destroys a starstation and a starbase of team A and team B wins and the other way around.

Thats not the same as Vanquish. Thats just, well, boring. If anyone wants to destroy/capture a base, they can play deathmatch or co-op (turn on AG on the server, everyone is on the same side and goes to a hostile region).

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If I understand correctly, if the spawnpoints are any object marked as waypoints and at least six will be present, more than one player will start at the same spawnpoint and all you have to figure out right now is how to make sure this doesn't occur at the same time?

One thing is not quite clear:

You say that at least six spawnpoints will be created. Does this mean that there will be some sort of script to create more if the session requires this and if so, what are your plans?

I ask this because if the situation is clear for me as well I can comment on it in a better way.

Thanks!

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Due to lack of time (and the amount of code re-working required), I have unfortunately nixed this idea. I am in the planning stages of a UC add-on, so hopefully I will be able to focus on this as a primary feature, instead of just hacking it into the current UC framework.

I may still be able to implement some form of base capture using DJPs already within the scene. I'm still tossing the idea around.

The biggest problem with this feature is that once a base is captured, the race/caste of all the assets within it, has to change to that of the capturing team. And unless the planet is re-loaded, there is no way to reset it. This is because the game has no concept of "maps", in that the entire game world is, well, one world sized map.

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

The biggest problem with this feature is that once a base is captured, the race/caste of all the assets within it, has to change to that of the capturing team. And unless the planet is re-loaded, there is no way to reset it. This is because the game has no concept of "maps", in that the entire game world is, well, one world sized map.


That's to bad it would have been an extremely cool addition to the game. Knowing you though you'll figure out a way to do it sometime in the future.

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