Guest Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 This topic is gonna be a little different then most. I want to know what your political views are, and where they came from. Are you a Republican, or a Democrat, are you a liberal, a socialist, a conservative and why? What great political thinkers etc have you read or are reading that either changed your views to what they are, or helped motivate you in your current views? I'll start.... I am a conservative... DUH!! LOL And I am a constitutionalist. My Grandfather was a Republican and a conservative, he is probably rolling in his grave right now with what the republicans are doing to this country now and the kind of party they have turned into. I have read many great political and intellectual conservative writers, Rush Limbaugh, Anne Coulter, etc, but my all time favorites, are you ready for this Race Bannon? Walter Williams, and Thomas Sowell. I am reading Thomas Sowell's book "The quest for cosmic justice" right now, Again, for the 3rd time actually, and I recommend this book to EVERYONE, no matter what their political leanings. It will give you a hint of what I am talking about, when I talk about what is happening in this country and most of the European ones, and why I believe that this redistribution of wealth by politicians will lead to our and other countries destruction. Socialism lite as I call it. There are many other factors as well, but I just wanted to get the ball rolling and see if there was any interest in discussing this subject. This isn't just for Americans though, you Europeans can get involved in this discussion as well. Even if your views make me angry sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Schacher Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I registered as a Republican as soon as I turned 18. The first candidate that I voted for was Ronald Reagan. A great initial read (in my opinion) is Common Sense, by Thomas Paine, Feb 1776. Also The Rights Of Man. The 18th century was great for expansion of political thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kartoffel Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I'd classify myself as a liberal, independant leaning democrat (I havent registered to vote, though I will soon) I base most of my alignment on tax policy. Tax & spend may not be the best, but it's better then borrow & spend like crazy, like Bush is doing now. The national debt is high enough already. What we really need (read: what I want) is someone who can cut through all the porkbarreling, who is open source friendly, anti-Microsoft, anti excessive IP rights BS (I.E., against all this RIAA, MPAA BS), and is against all this 'tax cuts for the rich' BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Kartoffel: I'd classify myself as a liberal, independant leaning democrat (I havent registered to vote, though I will soon)....... ........and is against all this 'tax cuts for the rich' BS. The part I want to concentrate on is the last part. Tax cuts for the rich.... Who are these rich people and how do you define them? Is it people that make 100K or more a year, or is it 50K, or it just people that make more money then you, or what? How do you define rich? Tax cuts for the rich is a very general term and can be pretty well defined differently by everyone. I want to know what you definition of "rich" is. Also, tell me what happens historically, when you tax the rich, or raise their rates to high levels so that "they pay their fair share". Facts, not rhetoric, tell me what happens when you tax them higher then the socalled poor and middle class. Now, on to the first statement.... quote: I base most of my alignment on tax policy. Tax & spend may not be the best, but it's better then borrow & spend like crazy, like Bush is doing now. The national debt is high enough already. Now, tell me what happens historicaly when you tax and then spend... a socalled balanced budget. In other words, you raise taxes, and then raise your spending, or vice versa. Then tell me what happens historically when you cut taxes, then spend anyway, even though you are running a deficit. Long term, not short term. So explain those 2 things and what you think happens in the long term. I want facts, not rhetoric, back up your statements, give me the facts of what happens, and which one is actually better. Now onto the middle statement. quote: What we really need (read: what I want) is someone who can cut through all the porkbarreling, who is open source friendly, anti-Microsoft, anti excessive IP rights BS (I.E., against all this RIAA, MPAA BS), Please explain this better, I am having a hard time grasping what you are saying, it's wonderful emotionally charged rhetoric, but it really doesn't tell me why this is good, or why this might be bad. What about these specific issues are so world changing or all fired important to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Trotter Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Stop being coy Jag he's just a kid and you know very well who the rich are and the ones he is focusing on. Prior to my recent layoff , my wife and I came pretty close to that 100K a year and that aint rich. We are referring to those households at single digit percentage that has the majorityof the wealth in this country and intend to keep it. One of the ways they do that is to imply that YOU too can be like us. This wool has been pulled over middle class eyes so much its becoming threadbare. I recently read a piece in the LA Times that chronicled the long relationship between the Bush family and the oil barons of the middle east. All very cozy going back to Granddady Prescott all the way up to our President. This is the rich we refer to. To try to strech that too fit the upper middle class is ludicrous. BTW I too have read Sowell. He is a very smart man who I of course disagree with on every major point. He and I as African Americans have had our political views shaped by the same influences with radically different results. I am a liberal because I was influenced by people who's beleifs did not jibe wit conservatives. I have read and reread ML.King, WEB DUbois, Ralph Waldo Emerson who said of Conservatism "Its fingers clutch the fact and will not open its eyes to see a better fact..it it distrusts nature,it thinks there is a general law without a particular application- law for all that does not include anyone" Sound familiar? That was written in 1841 (" The Conservative")and still so true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 quote: Its fingers clutch the fact and will not open its eyes to see a better fact..it it distrusts nature,it thinks there is a general law without a particular application- law for all that does not include anyone" Sound familiar? What's the better fact in this quote? It makes absolutely no sense to me, would you care to explain it? What is a "better" fact, facts are facts, one cannot be better then the other, if it is a fact, it is just that, a fact.... quote: One of the ways they do that is to imply that YOU too can be like us. Why can't you? Is there someone holding a gun to your head and telling you that it is impossible for you to do the same? quote: I recently read a piece in the LA Times that chronicled the long relationship between the Bush family and the oil barons of the middle east. All very cozy going back to Granddady Prescott all the way up to our President. And your point is what? I have freinds all over the world, some of them are very rich, some of them are well off, and some of their are poor, so if II go out and make a load of money in a similar industry, that somehow makes me beholden to those that I know are rich in the same industry? Guilt by association, a typical tactic of the class warfare gurus. quote: I am a liberal because I was influenced by people who's beleifs did not jibe wit conservatives. I have read and reread ML.King, MLK was a conservative, no matter how much some of the current black leaders of today would like to say otherwise, or think otherwise. He was against affirmative action, he was against anything that would give blacks advantages over others. He wanted a level playing field, that was all. He felt if given the same rights as others, blacks could excel. Affirmative action was not at all what he wanted. AS a matter of fact he would have felt slighted if the thought had even come up. He had faith in Black Americans that they were smart enough and capable enough to do ANYTHING without special rights and favors, IE affirmative action. He also knew what affirmative action would do in the long run. Special rights are another way to create anger at the minority that gets them. Blacks may feel it is fair for them to have affirmative action, but in the long run, it was the worse thing that could have happened to anyone. Affirmative action caused the black minority to become beholden to the democrat party, because they were the ones that felt that Blacks were not able to do it by themselves, that they needed an extra boost. In the long run it is one of the most destructive things that could have happened. Blacks are intelligent enough to be able to excel within a level playing field, but those handouts are just too nice to refuse, even if it destroys you in the long run. Oh, and pretty soon those helping hands not only become nice to have, but necassary, that is when things get real bad, and that is what is happening now. Equal rights is one thing, a level playing field is what was needed, but giving special rights because even with a level playing field, blacks couldn't do it, is the most unfair and racist thing that I have ever heard. Affirmative action is racism in action, and the black minority just eat it up, even if it is the biggest insult imaginable. And again, that last quote has no meaning, it is emotional rubbish as far as I can tell. So please explain to me with facts, not rhetoric, what exactly it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Trotter Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Plainly put (and I hope you are not suggesting that either you or i are the intellecual equal of Emerson) That conservatives cling to the same ideas and refuse to entertain the possiblity they could be wrong. There is in some conservatives a sneering presumption they are morally and intellectually superior. You are a very, very smart guy Jag and have my respect, but not one time have I heard you admit to being wrong. Smart isnt infallible and infallible you are not. I hold my beleifs as deeply as you do, but admit to not knowing all the answers and have even had my opinions change based on things YOU have said. As far as MLK as a Conservative, my wife is still rolling on the floor laughing at that one, try again. Do not mistake his moderate nature for conservatism. If he was alive today do you really think he'd vote with the same party that reelected Strom Thurman for 50 some years? get real. watch the recent PBS special on King's life if you can tear yourself away from Fox news long enough and get back to me. As far as Emerson here's another quote."There is always a certain meanness in the argument of a conservatve" Gee Jag its almost like he knows you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 There is no meanness in me, never has been. I believe in the rule of law, not in this search for cosmic justice that liberals espouse. It eats away at our rights and freedoms, and is slowly but surely destroying the very foundation that this country is founded upon. I will not say that I am wrong, because history shows that I am right, and will, I am afraid, prove me right again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Trotter Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Jag you have more knowledge than faith. I happen to beleive our country is at risk(just from different forces than the one you mention) I also beleieve in the goodness of the American people and that we will persevere. I recognize that you may view this belief as laughable but that's what I beleive....Gee Jag we ain't had one of these in quite awhile! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muirjm Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Jaguar: quote: I am a liberal because I was influenced by people who's beleifs did not jibe wit conservatives. I have read and reread ML.King, MLK was a conservative, no matter how much some of the current black leaders of today would like to say otherwise, or think otherwise. He was against affirmative action, he was against anything that would give blacks advantages over others. He wanted a level playing field, that was all. He felt if given the same rights as others, blacks could excel. Affirmative action was not at all what he wanted. AS a matter of fact he would have felt slighted if the thought had even come up. He had faith in Black Americans that they were smart enough and capable enough to do ANYTHING without special rights and favors, IE affirmative action. He also knew what affirmative action would do in the long run. Special rights are another way to create anger at the minority that gets them. Blacks may feel it is fair for them to have affirmative action, but in the long run, it was the worse thing that could have happened to anyone. Affirmative action caused the black minority to become beholden to the democrat party, because they were the ones that felt that Blacks were not able to do it by themselves, that they needed an extra boost. In the long run it is one of the most destructive things that could have happened. Blacks are intelligent enough to be able to excel within a level playing field, but those handouts are just too nice to refuse, even if it destroys you in the long run. Oh, and pretty soon those helping hands not only become nice to have, but necassary, that is when things get real bad, and that is what is happening now. Equal rights is one thing, a level playing field is what was needed, but giving special rights because even with a level playing field, blacks couldn't do it, is the most unfair and racist thing that I have ever heard. Affirmative action is racism in action, and the black minority just eat it up, even if it is the biggest insult imaginable. Thank you Jaguar! Why can't liberals understand this? If minorities truly are as good as whites (and I'm not racist, I think they are), then why do we need affirmative action? Since you already put my 2 cents in for me, Jag, I'm just going to sit back and watch the fireworks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Race Bannon IV: Jag you have more knowledge than faith. I happen to beleive our country is at risk(just from different forces than the one you mention) I also beleieve in the goodness of the American people and that we will persevere. I recognize that you may view this belief as laughable but that's what I beleive....Gee Jag we ain't had one of these in quite awhile! That's the one thing that I do not have, is faith in people. The only faith in people that I have, is that they will do what is best for themselves. That is what the world has come to. 100 years ago, I would have felt differently, people gave, people cared, people did not depend on government to do for them, they did for themselves and each other. Private charities and family were the ones that took care of those that were less fortunate. They did not steal from others in order to give to others, as the government does now. If you were rich, you set up and endowment or charity to help those that were less fortunate, now, the rich try and protect their assets from pillaging by the government in the name of fairness. That time of major philanthropy is gone, now it is protect your assets from government confiscation. Protect what you have earned so that the government cannot reach in and grab the peoples "fair share" of what you've earned. The government has taught us to protect what we have, so it won't be taken away by force. The faith in the American people is gone, they either want what someone else has and use the government to get it, or have what everyone else wants and try their best to protect it from the government. This is what happens when socialism lite coomes into the picture, when the government assumes that your money is theirs and you are lucky to be able to keep a little of what you have earned, because you are rich and don't deserve or dom't need that much. I have faith that the American people will continue to be suckered into this class warfare rhetoric, and become the selfish, the world owes me, suckers that they have become. Companies are being sued for the most ridiculous things, I poked myself with your screwdriver, I was an idiot and fell off the ladder that you made, I spilled coffee in my lap at the drivethrough, how dare you make it hot, your food makes me fat, so I am going to sue you. These are big companies, they make LOTS of profits and I am going to get my fair share by suing them for something I did that was stupid. This is now the mentality of the American people, and it is the beginning of the end. There is no faith left to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 27, 2004 Report Share Posted January 27, 2004 quote: Gee Jag we ain't had one of these in quite awhile! Darnit, I meant to comment on this. No, we haven't, isn't it fun? But, even if I disagree with you, I still respect you, personally, and politically, but LOTS more personally.....LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
echo Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 You guys beat me to it! It has been a long time since you two went at it...It is quite refreshing! Being a way for a bit, it was nice to come back and see things the same! I am not sure what I am...I register as independent and try to sort through the lies at election time. I am not rich...I guess I am lower middle class, I think, see I am not even sure about that. I don't know if I would notice if they lowered my taxes or not...I concentrate more on trying to get a lower interest rate with a high income debt ratio..Does that make me a democrat? I feel whoever steps into the presidency next go, or stays there for that matter, needs only to be concerned with how to restore what we all had prior 9/11 and that was peace of mind. I have said before: I have lived near a power plant all my life and never planned my escape route...I have one planned now. I don't care how much I pay in taxes, if it will help keep my kids safe. I guess that just makes me a mommy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Schacher Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 quote:If minorities truly are as good as whites (and I'm not racist, I think they are), then why do we need affirmative action?The establisment answer is that fixing the laws to create a level playing field wasn't enough. The establishment answer is that special actions were needed to redress the errors of the past, because even with the level playing field, whites still ruled because of centuries of dominance, and bigotry wasn't routed out just because the laws changed. The establishment will tell you that affirmative action is necessary to force white America to hire non-whites into either: a) positions of power, or positions where access to positions of power becomes available as skills develop. Lately, it is my belief that in today's world of instant gratification, people aren't willing to do what alternative B takes; people want non-whites placed into positions of power now, whether or not they have gained the required experience through training and trial and error that low-level jobs offer. It will only get worse as our schools become even more dumbed down. Look at what is happening in the high schools of New York City. First they dumbed down the curriculum because students (all ethnicities) weren't passing, then they dumbed down the standardized tests because the students weren't passing, then they lowered the passing grades on the standardized tests because the students weren't passing, and now they are getting caught inflating the grades because students still aren't passing. Freshman college classes are loaded with remedial math and reading classes at the highest rate ever, and second-year dropouts are the highest ever. How will these students ever survive in the business world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Schacher Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Here's a follow-on question to Jaguar's topic: Are there any votes that you now regret casting? I regret having voted for Ellen Tauscher as my representative in Congress over Bill Baker in 1996. That was the first and last time that I voted for a Democrat in a federal or state election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Steve Schacher: Here's a follow-on question to Jaguar's topic: Are there any votes that you now regret casting? I regret having voted for Ellen Tauscher as my representative in Congress over Bill Baker in 1996. That was the first and last time that I voted for a Democrat in a federal or state election. I am ashamed to say that I voted for Ross Perot and therefore allowed the crook and rapist, and all around scumbag, Clinton, to become President, along with his Slimey wife Hitlery. That is the one vote that not only did I not wish I had voted for him, I am ashamed that I voted for him. I vote Republican ALL the time, and that will only change if and when the Democrat party collapses, and a true centrist party comes up, such as the constitutionalist party or some party along those lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Schacher Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 Arrggh... I forgot about that. I also voted for Perot in 1992. George Bush just seemed too out of touch, but that was also before I became a student of the news. I now understand how the news is manipulated and won't make that mistake again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Steve Schacher: Arrggh... I forgot about that. I also voted for Perot in 1992. George Bush just seemed too out of touch, but that was also before I became a student of the news. I now understand how the news is manipulated and won't make that mistake again. Now I don't feel so bad!! Thanks Steve, it's always nice not to feel alone!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceCold Posted February 3, 2004 Report Share Posted February 3, 2004 quote:Jag: There is no meanness in me, never has been. Translation: "I'm not mean, I'm just right." Remember that repeating the same ideas over and over do not make them justified or correct in an absolute. quote: By Jag: I believe in the rule of law, not in this search for cosmic justice that liberals espouse. It eats away at our rights and freedoms, and is slowly but surely destroying the very foundation that this country is founded upon. Read this, all of 167 pages of it then read the refrenced documents with the changes added, and I challenge you to show how our rights and freedoms are not being whittled away. This law went from concept to presidential approval in 3 days, too little time to analyze it's true meaning. Public Law No: 107-56 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Che Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 I am a card-carrying member of the Democratic Socialist Party of The United States. And I must admit that Jag and I finally have something in common. You mention your displeasure with the Republican party. I too became disappointed with the democratic party, thus my jump to the DARK SIDE. You may see Bill Clinton as a left-wing bleeding-heart liberal where as I see him as a right-wing nut-case. I am the son of Irish immigrants. My father was a staunch liberal who constantly complained about how the united states government was run. This confused me, and I mentioned ont time that if he didn't like the government, then he should vote. His reply..." I don't need to vote, I will have three people voting for me." Well, he ended up having only me voting for him. My sister married a conservative and voted the same. My brother could care less about politics, no matter how much I try to persuade him. I have read the biography of Che Guevara and fell in love with his political view. I have also read Dostoevsky, Voltaire, Joyce, and Hemmingway(hated it), and of course my two favorite modern writers, Al Franken and Michael Moore. I am currently reading the biography of Ghandi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest $iLk Posted February 4, 2004 Report Share Posted February 4, 2004 I guess I would have to classify myself as a conservative. I don't vote straight Republican, but I rarely vote for a Democratic candidate... mostly because the Democratic party has become too polarized in their worldview, which I disagree with almost wholeheartedly. I've travelled along the spectrum, from extreme-right believing that the government was on the verge of socialist extremism and needed to be knocked down, to a kind of middle of the road libertarianism, to a little further to the right where I could probably be defined as a religious conservative. I've read most of the high time political writings from Extreme Left to Extreme Right, from Marx to Neitche. Currently my reading list sticks towards what Jaguar described above. Though I have to recommend the latest book I have read, The Enemy Within by Michael Savage. The only vote I regret casting was for Alabama's current governor who has backtracked on everything that his campaign platform stood for. I'd rather vote Democrat locally than for this sorry b*stard again. I believe that rule by the Constitution, and affirming our principle and policies as being granted by God is the way to go. As far as the racial issue - I don't judge a book by it's cover - you have to take people one at a time. You want to know who I'm voting for in November? Bush all the way. And I disagree with a lot of the things he's done - but by God he's doing what he believes is right, and he's allowing his faith to guide him in more matters than he's allowing polls and politics to guide him. I respect him, and he's more than earned that respect from every single one of us. Every democratic candidate who finds their joy in "Bush bashing" can all be voted out for all I care, because I guarantee this country would have been lost under another Gore/Clinton Regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Che Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 By God, Bush is doing what he believes is right for one reason only....and that reason is....because he was CHOSEN by God to lead this country. If more people believed in God and Bush, this miserable world would be a better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkling Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I'm a conservative Republican. I grew up in a very poor part of Rhode Island where a lot of my friends had no aspiration other than getting married (at 15, 16 & 17) and going on Welfare. I also remember how a can of soda before Carter was 25 cents and after him was 50 cents. I made it a point to run in the School Mock Election as Reagan, against Carter and pointed this out. I still lost by about 3%. The real Reagan lost RI by a much, much larger margin, but of course, he won the big race. I got sick and tired of everyone whining that they needed the Government to do this and that for them and how the rich were so priveledged. The only people that I knew that were successful were people who started their own business and so that is what I aspired to. Today I own my own company. I have 7 employees, my brother also owns his own company with 20 employees and we are probably the hardest working people we know. Now if I could only tear myself away from this game, I could catch up to my little brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest $iLk Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 quote:If more people believed in God and Bush, this miserable world would be a better place.You are right on one account at least Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzle Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 quote:Originally posted by $iLk: quote:If more people believed in God and Bush, this miserable world would be a better place.You are right on one account at least On the contrary, if more people placed faith in themselves the world would also be a better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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