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Patriot Act : Reality Check

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Right, I am British, so the Patriot Act doesn't directly affect me, but I feel I have to point out a few things:

quote:

Originally posted by Kalshion:

*looks around*, lets see my house isn't bugged and it'll stay unbugged. And I can just bet that you're house isn't bugged either.

How can you be sure of that? If you are even suspected of being a terrorist, you can be bugged, even if the evidence against you is practically non-existant.

quote:

You havn't lost you're privacy unless you have commited a crime

or are merely suspected of having committed a crime.

quote:

I'm glad they can now enter without a warrent, why announce you're presence to begin with? That just gives the person time to hide what the people are looking for

Not really. Generally, the way it is done is that the first the criminal knows of the raid is when the police turn up on the doorstep with a warrant.

quote:

To be quite honest, if you're commited of a crime you shouldn't even be ALLOWED to have a legal attorney WHAT SO EVER. Cause it's like I just said, You commited a crime, there is the evidence.. you broke the law, you betrayed america so you deserve to be either put in jail or sentenced to death (which, by the way, I support the death sentence)

So, let me get this straight. Person A accuses Person B of being a terrorist and a small amount of circumstantial evidence is discovered which backs this up. This leads to Person B being arrested. Under your idea, Person B has no access to legal representation, which means he has absolutely no chance to mount any sort of defence, so he is convicted and executed for terrorism.

What is to stop the original accusation being motivated by, for example, the fact Person B slept with Person A's wife? Answer: Nothing.

To me, it seems clear the terrorists are laughing their asses off because the US Government is doing half their job for them. Don't follow me? Think about it. What is the purpose of terrorists? To spread terror and fear. What does the Patriot Act do? It makes the whole of America seem paranoid and afraid, and erodes some of the liberties of US citizens to fuel this paranoia, and has sparked off a huge debate which keeps terrorism, and therefore the terrorists, in the public eye.

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Guest $iLk

quote:

To be quite honest, if you're commited of a crime you shouldn't even be ALLOWED to have a legal attorney WHAT SO EVER. Cause it's like I just said, You commited a crime, there is the evidence.. you broke the law, you betrayed america so you deserve to be either put in jail or sentenced to death (which, by the way, I support the death sentence)


Yeah dude that's not cool... legal representation is a right under the Constitution. Evidence doesn't mean you are guilty. i.e. your ex-wife is murdered in the next town over... they find that you have a gas receipt in that town around the same time about 4 miles away - but in reality you were just passing through on business and she was turning tricks for cash and got capped by her pimp she met on the internet.

Should you then not have access to representation because they have "evidence" that you might have committed a crime?

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You two misunderstood me

IF you're commited of a crime, IE there is ample evidence to support what you are accused of then you shouldn't be allowed to have a lawyer

For example

Terrorists are just that, Terrorist's. They should not be allowed a lawyer since there is overwhelming evidence that support the presecuters case, that the terrorists are here to kill

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That's exactly what is so frightening about this new right wing movement. All of our liberties are being tossed aside because all the paranoid citizens of this country want everyone locked up regardless of whether or not they receive legal representation. It's McCarthyism - Part 2. Welcome to the end of a free democracy, people. Keep up the good work Kalshion. My comrades and I are ready for the revolution. All it takes is more people to keep pushing american totalitarianism down the collective world's throat.

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THEM

Kal: Do me a favor and pull your head out of the sand and look around.

El: Che:Are you a California Communist/psycho-political Operative?

Did anyone here see the film Battlefield Earth?

If not, watch it. If you did, watch it again. Because it's pretty much a parallel of what's happening now. (without the aliens)

Yeah, I know the film sucked major rocks, but the premise of the story is the most important part....

Man as an animal who is only worthy of slavery to increase corporate profits.

"Cry Havoc, and let loose the dogs of war."

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So then wolferz, you wouldn't mind seeing a terrorist go free then?

God what type of person are you

Wolferz, what about murderers? Person A murders a child, Person B witnessed the murder and reports it in

Person A is arrested and evidence is found that he DID murder that child. Suddenly this person get's a lawyer and the lawyer finds a way to turn the evidence around despit the fact that the evidence is true.

Person A goes free, and does it AGAIN. In that case i feel the JUDGE and the LAWYER should be tried

THATS what I was trying to say, god think for crying out loud people before you make false accusations

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quote:


Originally posted by Kalshion:

So then wolferz, you wouldn't mind seeing a terrorist go free then?


It's not that I wish a terrorist to go free.

Far from it. We still have to consider a man innocent until "Proven" guilty by due process.

No matter who or what you are. Otherwise, we defeat the concept that all men are created equal.

The proper function of the courts and law enforcement is:

If suffucient evidence is presented at arraignment, that the accused could or would be a flight risk, the judge could either deny bail or set it so high as to prevent the defendant from gaining his freedom on bail.

This would most likely be the best course of action with a terrorist.

Changing our laws and the constitution for the sole purpose of rooting out terrorists only serves to enforce "the Terrorist's agenda" by not only creating fear of a terrorist act in the populace,But also creating fear of our own government and law enforcement.

Fear is a potent and effective weapon. In the hands of Brutal,immoral people it is a terrible weapon.

The current intelligence, law enforcement and military protections that are in use now have some glaringly fatal flaws. 9/11 exposed this fact.

Curtailing our liberties is not the answer to fixing this problem.

As far as I'm concerned the 9/11 disaster was allowed if not orchestrated to happen, no matter what defenses we had in place to prevent it.

There have already been too many disaster style events that we the people have endured in the last century.Suspicious Events shrouded in secrecy, used as a focal point for rallying the populace to the whims of the few.

The master plan continues unabated because those brave Americans who stand up and ask WTF?? are soon branded as unpatriotic and silenced.

The 9/11 commision wil be slowly coerced and compromised in their mission,so don't expect them to come up with the answers.

What kind of person am I?:

I am a patriotic American in the Jeffersonian sense, who has served his country and sworn an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies both foreign and domestic.

At present, we have a domestic enemy who attacks us and our constitution from inside our duly elected government. And frankly my friends it is really starting to piss me off.

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quote:

What kind of person am I?:

I am a patriotic American in the Jeffersonian sense, who has served his country and sworn an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies both foreign and domestic.

At present, we have a domestic enemy who attacks us and our constitution from inside our duly elected government. And frankly my friends it is really starting to piss me off.


:hail: ''AMEN ! ! :hail:

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quote:

Originally posted by Kalshion:

You two misunderstood me

IF you're commited of a crime, IE there is ample evidence to support what you are accused of then you shouldn't be allowed to have a lawyer

For example

Terrorists are just that, Terrorist's. They should not be allowed a lawyer since there is overwhelming evidence that support the presecuters case, that the terrorists are here to kill

...in which case, unless the prosecuters are totally incompetent, the terrorists would be found guilty anyway.

quote:

Person A murders a child, Person B witnessed the murder and reports it in

Person A is arrested and evidence is found that he DID murder that child. Suddenly this person get's a lawyer and the lawyer finds a way to turn the evidence around despit the fact that the evidence is true.

The crime was witnessed. In order for the case to collapse in the manner you have suggested, the lawyer would have to show some prior connection between the witness and the murderer of a nature that would throw a large doubt on the veracity of his statement and there would have to be no forensic evidence linking him to the crime, which would require either a large amount of planning on the murderer's part and for him to have fairly intimate knowledge of forensic paractices, or incompetence on the police's or forensic team's part.

[ 04-28-2004, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: White Wolf ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Wolferz

What kind of person am I?:

I am a patriotic American in the Jeffersonian sense, who has served his country and sworn an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies both foreign and domestic.

At present, we have a domestic enemy who attacks us and our constitution from inside our duly elected government. And frankly my friends it is really starting to piss me off.

Amen to that Brother!!

You and I have a lot more in common then I originally thought, at the same time, I know for a fact that it is too late to stop it.

If what you say is true, then either way the person that gets elected next time will continue with what's going on.

Third party, forget about it, not a chance.

This country is on it's way to historical oblivion, a dream that has turned into a nightmare because it has become perverted from what it once was.

Perhaps the people that survive the coming turmoil will be the constitution loving people that we are, and will bring it back in it's glory with a few more safeguards. And I believe that a person that breaks their oath of office should be put to death, add that, and we may be safer then what has been allowed to happen this time.

Anyway, I agree 100% with your statement above, but I also have the sense to know that reality is getting in the way of that, but the reality is, that it is also going to implode real soon, and perhaps then we can start over and have a country that we can be proud of.

Cheers Wolferz!!

There is ONLY 1 politician I know that takes his oath of office seriously and keeps it, and that is the congressman from Texas, I wish I could remember his name, but he is the most trustworthy of the critters we have, too bad the rest don't take their cue from him. But, as you and I agree, it's too late now, it is just a matter of surviving the aftermath and starting anew.

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@ Jaquar(or kashlon, but my message is to both of you): I dont see it as 'TO LATE FOR CHANGE". I believe the Emperor Has NO Clothes: in that, As long as everyone BELIEVEs nothing can be done;then, nothing can be done.

And ONCE again I am referred to; as a Liberal,in a very negative context too, I might add. And once again, I say to you: "I am NO liberal". I just have the limited wisdom, to see that the swing from left to right(and right to left), is all we have to balance the progression of that which YOU TOO fear.(i.e. and jaquar's own confession:)

quote:

You and I have a lot more in common then I originally thought, at the same time, I know for a fact that it is too late to stop it.

If what you say is true, then either way the person that gets elected next time will continue with what's going on.

Third party, forget about it, not a chance.

This country is on it's way to historical oblivion, a dream that has turned into a nightmare because it has become perverted from what it once was.

I truly hope, you both would slow down, and (at least) take a look at the person,s views objectively, before launching an 'all out attack on them'.

I humbly suggest, we would ALL benefit from the results, in more coordial, and intellectual conversation.

[ 04-28-2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: street ]

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First things first...

quote:

To be quite honest, if you're commited of a crime you shouldn't even be ALLOWED to have a legal attorney WHAT SO EVER. Cause it's like I just said, You commited a crime, there is the evidence.. you broke the law, you betrayed america so you deserve to be either put in jail or sentenced to death (which, by the way, I support the death sentence)


Well, then I am thankful that you do not rule the justice system. It is all too easy in the modern world to find yourself in a shitload of trouble whether you are responsible for it or not. Because as someone much wiser than I once said, "Shit happens." And when it does, in Kalshions world you wouldn't be able to say a thing and be locked up...oh wait, we can do that for REAL now thanks to everyones favorite Patriot Act!

But moving on, I think everyone is missing the big picture. We have already LOST the war on terror. We can win all the battles everywhere. We can smite every terrorist right back in to hell where they came from, but we still lose. Why? Their goal is not to destroy all Americans or to overthrow America (sure, that would be a bonus, but thats not the objective). The objective is to instill fear into us. The fact that we may soon have to tippy-toe around our lives to avoid being called a terrorist and being locked up forever PROVES that they already won the game.

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Guest $iLk

I can think of only one case in which I believe the Patriot Act has been abused - and that is the case against the American Citizen from Chicago who has been held without trial - Jose Padilla.

Sure he might be a terrorist, but what is the Ashcroft legal department so afraid of in allowing him a trial?

As far as the Cuban detainees - I believe the administration's biggest mistake is listening too much to their lawyers instead of common sense. Those people should have SOME kind of trial and either be released or jailed depending on what exactly they are being held for.

Do I believe the country is on a course towards irreparable harm? Yes - but it all depends on the steps we take now. Excess growth of the government and such needs to be gutted out - in addition to more clearly defining the role of state and federal responsibilities. We would go a long way towards correcting the problems in this country through enacting a huge-ass tax-cut and permanizing it in order to force them to cut spending or be voted out after they continue pork-barrel deficit spending. Just my thoughts.

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Deepfreeze, I love how you misinterpreted my words its no different than what everyone else has done

You guys continue to amaze me, you clearly have no clue WHAT I'm talking about or what I mean.(and yes you guys don't know what I mean, in that case ASK ME instead of drawing a false conclusion)

One thing I really hate in the justice system is how our inmates are treated so nicely, TV, great food, etc.... If you're in prison YOU DON'T DESERVE GOOD TREATMENT, you where put in prison for being bad for commiting something like a crime or something else

That's what I hate the most. Hell there treated better than our own citizens =

Now, are you people going to continue bashing me? Cause that is EXACTLY what you're doing

(Edit: Sorry if I'm being rude, but I'm getting damn tired of you people not asking me what I mean or if you want me to explain better. I have a comment for El Chi but I'll leave it, as Jaguar would get all over me if I was to say it)

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quote:

You guys continue to amaze me, you clearly have no clue WHAT I'm talking about or what I mean.(and yes you guys don't know what I mean, in that case ASK ME instead of drawing a false conclusion)

And once you realize you are being misinterpreted you should back up and redefine your argument. You did that and got a nice (I thought so at least) response from White Wolf. Deep Freeze did use a bit of sarcasm but I don't think he bashed you.

Arguing about the argument is getting a bit usenet so thank you Kalshion for defining your complaint better and let's move on.

I said somewhere in another thread (which isn't worth quoting or finding) that I like the idea of getting bad guys but using Deep Freeze respones to Kalshion sometimes the universe conspires against you. Wrong place at the wrong time kinda thing.

OOOHHHH here is one for you Kalshion. Not bashing I promise.

When I was 16 my first job was at a theatre. Consolidated to be exact. I don't know if they are still around or not. Southern powerhouse Cobb (now Carmike) ran them out of town. Anyway, one evening after the last show or my shift ended I heard what I would have sworn was a cat fight. I looked up to see a woman getting her purse snatched. She fought like the dickens for it but lost. I stood dumbfounded while the guy got away. I know he was was a black guy because he was black and he had an afro (they weren't quite out of style yet. Heaven forbid they come back). However the parking lot had no lights (perhaps it was after the last show and they were turned off) so I really couldn't tell any distinguishing features.

I asked her if she wanted me to call the sheriff to which she said yes. So I did. He got my report but I was never asked to identify anyone. I couldn't have if I tried. What then? If the police had had to rely on my testimony the man would have gotten off scot free. On the other hand I didn't send an innocent man to jail.

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quote:

One thing I really hate in the justice system is how our inmates are treated so nicely, TV, great food, etc....

Just out of curiosity,what planet are you living on?

Please pass the soap....

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Just out of curiosity, do you ever watch the shows that talk about prison life? Do you even watch the news that sometimes talks about such things ... hmmm CC?

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quote:

Originally posted by Kalshion:

Just out of curiosity, do you ever watch the shows that talk about prison life? Do you even watch the news that sometimes talks about such things ... hmmm CC?

Please enlighten me.

BTW,that's Cc.

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quote:

Originally posted by Kalshion:

You guys continue to amaze me, you clearly have no clue WHAT I'm talking about or what I mean.(and yes you guys don't know what I mean, in that case ASK ME instead of drawing a false conclusion)

Frankly, unless you mean something different than exactly what you've said, then you mean denying one of the most basic rights under US (and UK) law to people who are merely accused of a crime - the right to legal representation. Remember, it doesn't matter how much evidence there is, until someone is proven guilty in a court of law, they are innocent. It could be that there's so much evidence against them the world and his wife knows what the final verdict will be before the trial even begins, but, until that trial actually takes place, they are innocent.

quote:

One thing I really hate in the justice system is how our inmates are treated so nicely, TV, great food, etc.... If you're in prison YOU DON'T DESERVE GOOD TREATMENT, you where put in prison for being bad for commiting something like a crime or something else

That's what I hate the most. Hell there treated better than our own citizens

Now that we can agree on. Once they have been found guilty and sent to prison, they are there as punishment, not to go to some kind of damn holiday camp.

On a side note, this brought up a question I have:

quote:

Originally posted by street:

And ONCE again I am referred to; as a Liberal,in a very negative context too, I might add. And once again, I say to you: "I am NO liberal".

Why is it that, in America, 'liberal' is fairly often used as an insult? Wasn't America founded on the idea of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

I thought I'd ask as a lot of you on here seem to hail from the US.

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quote:

Now that we can agree on. Once they have been found guilty and sent to prison, they are there as punishment, not to go to some kind of damn holiday camp.

I have no idea what prisons are like in the UK,and thank God I have no experience with prisons here in the US.But why do you guys think that being in prison is a 'walk in the park'?

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I wouldn't think it was a walk in the park. Even with the TV ( a form of crowd control) just not being able to leave would ruin me. I have experience using work detail inmates. They aren't real happy campers.

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Plus Cc, I've visited a prison before for a new's story at my school

Trust me, they are treated better than the common citizen.

NOW the only prison I know of that is complete HELL is the marine prison located... In I beleave is MAIN (it's misspelled I know that) Only the most high risk and dangerous suspects go there

You're right Chavik about the legal thing, but the hell would a lawyer want to defend a terrorist? Expically when there is evidence to show that they where part of some plot against the US and stuff.. WHY? Why would a lawyer do something as stupid as betray his own country to protect a killer?

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Guest $iLk

quote:

WHY? Why would a lawyer do something as stupid as betray his own country to protect a killer?


In the words of the people during the Oklahoma City Bombing trial - there was no one in the world in more need of legal representation than Timothy McVeigh. The reason being: so that justice would be served. The lawyers who defended him did what was right - because if we aren't willing to defend the worst of us - why do the rest of us deserve anything special?

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quote:

Plus Cc, I've visited a prison before for a new's story at my school

That sounds like an interesting experience.You have got me on that one.

[ 04-28-2004, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Cc ]

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quote:

You're right Chavik about the legal thing,

That was someone else I think. I told the story about the purse snatching. Last post page two.

quote:

but the hell would a lawyer want to defend a terrorist?

$ilk answered better than I could have.

edit: I meant page ONE.

[ 04-28-2004, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Cmdr Chavik ]

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