Steve Schacher Posted May 10, 2004 Report Posted May 10, 2004 For comparison, I ask some people to do an internet search on the Corcoran Prison in the California Penal System. In 1994, the guards were caught staging yard fights between rival gang members and betting on the outcomes. They would contrive a matchup if a prisoner gave them a bad look or angered them in any way. Needless to say, the fights were to the death. When the government found out what was going on there, they sent in the FBI to investigate. The FBI conducted a secret investigation with some insiders. Finally, the guards found out about the investigation. The insider whistle-blowers fled the prison with documents, and were chased at high speed for 45 miles down I-5 by the Corcoran guards until they were safe inside the Federal Building in Fresno. The point is, it can and has happened here, and for no other reason than that there are bad seeds everywhere. p.s. The Corcoran guards were acquitted at trial.
street228 Posted May 10, 2004 Report Posted May 10, 2004 quote:When you start believing that all are guilty of the crimes of a few, that you can abuse whomever you wish because someone else once did something bad to you, then you go against all that our country, our laws, and our freedoms stand for. THIS is why I stood against the whole idea of invading IRAQ in the beginning. and This is exactly the lynch-mob mind set which allowed the ferver for invasion to succeed. And NOW WHAT? We listened to, and allowed ,an idiot, bent on revenge, to take us into this delimma. Give that idiot 5 more terms in office, and he will NOT succeed in his ambitions. Every move He has made, does nothing but breed that which, He and the rest of this country, FEARS. It takes a DIFFERENT kind of strategy to eliminate the kind of threat, which has NO physical, governmental BODY, And NO specific PHYSICAL location. It takes an INTELLIGENT mind, NOT a powerful military, to have victory in this arena. Every conquoring army, throughout the ages, failed in their aspirations, when they attempted to control the MINDS of their enemies through cohersive and brutal force Even Germany's great military machine, and their SS were no match for the spirit of the underground. I am one who laughs everyday when watching the news. (street thinking:)"And what exactly, did ole (ADOLPH) Bush, really think would happen....Everyone gonna say "thank you for the new nightmare, it's much better than the old nightmare?"......YEAH RIGHT!!! In my opinion, the whole episode concerning IRAQ, in fact, goes against all that our country, our laws, and our freedoms, stand for.!!!
LostInSpace Posted May 10, 2004 Report Posted May 10, 2004 quote:Originally posted by street: 1: It takes a DIFFERENT kind of strategy to eliminate the kind of threat,.............. It takes an INTELLIGENT mind, NOT a powerful military, to have victory in this arena. 2: which has NO physical, governmental BODY, And NO specific PHYSICAL location. 3: Even Germany's great military machine, and their SS were no match for the spirit of the underground. 1: What strategy do you propose? The kind of mindset you state does not matter in the least. Weather you're an idiot or genius you are still vulnerable to other people's mindsets. That's the problem. This is not an issue of intelligence but ideology. When I say ideology, I'm talking about religion. Do you think those suicide bombers would be so fast to kill themselves if they knew that God is just a construct of our minds to keep us from going mad about death. No afterlife glory, no heaven, no hell, no green fields to run through when ya pass on. Nothing, absolutely nothing. When you are dead, that's it. If people had that kind of mind set, I bet if someone approached them to sacrifice themselves for their god or the person issuing the request they'd say "You want to make a point, you do it yourself". 2: Don't kid yourself with that. These people would not be able to exist without taking refuge in other peoples back yards or given safe haven there. 4: Again, don't kid yourself. We just got lucky with that. Do you think that Hitler would have gone as far as he did if we intervened sooner in that mess. But nooooo, as usual we sat on our a$$es while he trampled and took over Europe and anyone else he could think of he'd like to take over.
Guest Shingen Posted May 10, 2004 Report Posted May 10, 2004 quote:Even Germany's great military machine, and their SS were no match for the spirit of the underground.America has been "nation-building" for more than 225 years, and in all that time, no U.S. campaign has ever approached the level of the "Final Solution". To equate GWB and Co. (or U.S. Foreign Policy in general) with Hitler and Co., does more to illustrate your fundamental knowledge of world history, then anything else...
street228 Posted May 10, 2004 Report Posted May 10, 2004 quote: America has been "nation-building" for more than 225 years, and in all that time, no U.S. campaign has ever approached the level of the "Final Solution". To equate GWB and Co. (or U.S. Foreign Policy in general) with Hitler and Co., does more to illustrate your fundamental knowledge of world history, then anything else... lol there is just a couple of MINOR difference, in all NATION building schemes of the PAST, and that which we are so readily trying to equate with this cherade. In the PAST, EVERY time we were involved in overthrowing another country's government, or tried to FREE others from that government's domination.....Those who we attempted to help, were ALL READY in the process of succeeding from their present governing body, or their government had ALL READY committed out-right attack on the U.S.(and without justifiable provocation I might add) point 1: IRAQ had NO majority of their population willing, nor ready to succeed to our form of democracy! point 2: IRAQ's government, posed NO threats to the united states, nor any other country, in their present condition prior to us INVADING them, and had committed NO attacks on the U.S. point 3: Looking objectively at the position they were in, and WHY they were in such a position, may have some justification as to their position in hating the united states. be it, no other than our idolotry, and lack of morality in conjunction with their religeous beliefs, or the cowardly, murdering, double standards, our country's foreign policies have demonstrated throughout the years. I would like nothing more, than to BELIEVE, we were right, and that we are doing some great service for humanity, but I was in Kewait the FIRST time we went there. I can assure you: dessimating their CULTURE, is equivilant to someone KILLING your only child. The more you fight it with guns and bombs, the more innocents die, and the more hate it will breed. quote: When I say ideology, I'm talking about religion. Do you think those suicide bombers would be so fast to kill themselves if they knew that God is just a construct of our minds to keep us from going mad about death. No afterlife glory, no heaven, no hell, no green fields to run through when ya pass on. Nothing, absolutely nothing. When you are dead, that's it. If people had that kind of mind set, I bet if someone approached them to sacrifice themselves for their god or the person issuing the request they'd say "You want to make a point, you do it yourself". And, if there be NO GOD, NO AFTERLIFE, and NOTHING worth dying for....? do you honestly believe, the united states would exist today, if the founding fathers were not willing to die for what they believe? again..a double standard in philosophy is quite apparant. quote: 2: Don't kid yourself with that. These people would not be able to exist without taking refuge in other peoples back yards or given safe haven there. No one in the world would be able to exist, without help from people who share their ideologies. If you were the only one on the planet who believed that DEMOCRACY is established through killing those who do not agree with you, you would not survive either, but as long as you have a powerful army, ready to inforce your ideals ,you will feel safe to make such assertions(wheather they be true or false, right or wrong) My point is, that to turn such a situation into an all out war between ideological beliefs, is one of the stupidest things any PRESIDENT could have done These people fighting our military today in IRAQ, are not what the news is proclaiming them to be. THEY ARE NOT BATHIST, NOR ARE THEY AL QUEDA. They are people(like you and I)who believe in their RIGHT to govern themselves, and their RIGHT to raise their children in their own beliefs, and who have COMMON reason to fight( to the death, if need be)the AMERICAN INVADERS! I would do the same, if MY country were overthrown, even if I were not particularly pleased with my present government......WOULD YOU? ------------------------------------------------------ quote:4: Again, don't kid yourself. We just got lucky with that. Do you think that Hitler would have gone as far as he did if we intervened sooner in that mess. Hitler was a terrible genius, in his military applications. And his terrible agenda, became quite horrible, in the later stages of the war. Mostly due to a few small mistakes and the power which rose within the internal ranks of the german government(i.e. the SS). Thus the Atrocities atributed to him personally(i.e. the holocost etc.) HOWEVER!!!! the political situation throughout the unified GERMANY, 10 YEARS prior to his ELECTION,(if anyone would care to READ concerning it) is running so parrallel to the political agendas manifesting themselves HERE(USA) today, it is really quite AMAZING to me, the amount of people who refuse to accept or acknowledge the parrallels.(Bush's need to mess with the constitution is just one prime example of such:FIRST thing hitler did was start messing with the constitution to enforce the NAZI parties hold within their government)Every Gun law passed since the FIRST bush administration is almost duplicate to EVERY gun law passed prior to the NAZI's taking final HOLD of the german political arena. and these are just examples of a couple of the HUNDREDS of obvious parrallels(if one would but read about them) One last thing concerning this, and this thing concerning the so-called PRISON ATROCITIES. WOW, is anyone so nieve, as to think that this does not go on during EVERY WAR, Just another example of people buying into this clean media perspective of a WAR. Its not just a FEW bad apples. THOSE will be the ones sacrificed to save face. REALITY IS: it goes on in our prison system ...HERE...TODAY....STATE SIDE!!! let alone, in a prison out in the middle of a DECLARED WAR ZONE. We, as AMERICANS, have an obligation to WAKE UP, and Acknowledge what WAR is! We have an obligatiion to look at the WHOLE picture, to INSURE our leaders are honest with US, as well as the rest of the world concerning the TRUTH of our agendas. We,as a people, have allowed and accepted, our governments willingness to lie to us, and hide things from us for so long, we have forgotten what it is to be in a REAL "FREE DEMOCRACY" When we, as a people, Take control of our governing bodies, and SHOW the world, TRUE morality, and show the SAME democracy we preach, is truly something to be praised...THEN, and ONLY THEN, will we be trusted, and not deamed murdering back-stabbing liers, by the populations within the third world communities. I say to you....THIS is what TERRORIST are fighting. They are fighting that which TERRIFIES them!!. And they are using the ONLY MEANS we have allowed them. If we continue to classify any who dissent, and hold their way of life as "worth dying for", as TERRORIST and enemies of the state...keep hunting them. Locking them in cages,and blatantly killing with NO chance for reconciliation through diplomacy: They will hide and become more elusive, their numbers will continue to grow. Their ideology will become as set in stone. One prime example, is with the persecution of the christians. They fled, went underground, and grew to an enormous size, in a few short centuries, with a very very small established beginning. OPPRESSED muslims(or terrorist), will rise up faster, and be more formidable, AS there are a HUGE number amongst the world population, and they ARE willing to give up their lives for what they believe. When their number becomes strong enough,and they integrate within your own ranks.... then and only then will you see the TERROR they are willing to unleash. If they ever become strong enough from within to overthrow, those who have designated them as terrorist, they will designate like term and like policies upon their oppressors. If you do NOT give a person, a way out through diplomatic means, HE HAS NOTHING TO LOOSE. HE becomes your WORST CONCEIVABLE enemy. We as a people need to WAKE UP to the reality of what we are doing, and make the proper adjustments to our methodologies. [ 05-10-2004, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: street ]
Guest Shingen Posted May 10, 2004 Report Posted May 10, 2004 quote:In the PAST, EVERY time we were involved in overthrowing another country's government, or tried to FREE others from that government's domination.....Those who we attempted to help, were ALL READY in the process of succeeding from their present governing body, or their government had ALL READY committed out-right attack on the U.S.(and without justifiable provocation I might add)This is a blanket statement and there's really no way that the average joe on the street could know for sure. Do you think that average U.S. citizens in 1941 were aware of the European resistance to Nazi Germay? Do you think that Roosevelt would've let those Europeans perish if Japan (an Ally of Germany) hadn't initially attacked Pearl Harbor? Did you know for certain that there wasn't an active resistance against Saddam Hussain before we invaded during "Desert Storm" and later "Iraqi Freedom"? Are you that well connected? quote:Hitler was a terrible genius, in his military applications. And his terrible agenda, became quite horrible, in the later stages of the war. Mostly due to a few small mistakes and the power which rose within the internal ranks of the german government(i.e. the SS). Thus the Atrocities atributed to him personally(i.e. the holocost etc.) HOWEVER!!!! the political situation throughout the unified GERMANY, 10 YEARS prior to his ELECTION,(if anyone would care to READ concerning it) is running so parrallel to the political agendas manifesting themselves HERE(USA) today, it is really quite AMAZING to me, the amount of people who refuse to accept or acknowledge the parrallels.(Bush's need to mess with the constitution is just one prime example of such:FIRST thing hitler did was start messing with the constitution to enforce the NAZI parties hold within their government)Every Gun law passed since the FIRST bush administration is almost duplicate to EVERY gun law passed prior to the NAZI's taking final HOLD of the german political arena. and these are just examples of a couple of the HUNDREDS of obvious parrallels(if one would but read about them) I don't think that Hitler was a military genius. If he was a genius at anything, it would've been lies, deception, and the ablity to influence. We can agree that there are alot of parallels between the German policy of the 1930s and U.S. policy over the last 30 years. History has a tendency to repeat itself.
street228 Posted May 10, 2004 Report Posted May 10, 2004 quote: This is a blanket statement and there's really no way that the average joe on the street could know for sure. Do you think that average U.S. citizens in 1941 were aware of the European resistance to Nazi Germay? Do you think that Roosevelt would've let those Europeans perish if Japan (an Ally of Germany) hadn't initially attacked Pearl Harbor? Did you know for certain that there wasn't an active resistance against Saddam Hussain before we invaded during "Desert Storm" and later "Iraqi Freedom"? (YES)My Grandfather was an average joe, He knew, as did most of the people in my home town, at the time. And (YES), I KNOW the average american was aware of the resistance. I spent many a weekend watching the old b/w films when converting them to vhs while in college. Rosevelt was caught in a catch/22; thus, My answer is again (YES) And how do I know for certain there wasnt an active resistance??. Because, the one we inspired was quelched, without the promised aid ever to have been delivered. It is only Logical, there was no ACTIVE resistance alive at the time prior to IRAQI FREEDOM. It was only a very small and minor portion of the population ,to begin withm, DURING OPERATION DESERT STORM. And we , bolstered it to reveal itself; then did NOTHING to protect them. quote: Are you that well connected? No more than any other, well read and inquisitive, person, who is willing to see more than one perspective concerning: TRUTH. quote:I don't think that Hitler was a military genius. If he was a genius at anything, it would've been lies, deception, and the ablity to influence. Now, here is my dilimma. I see, as do many a professor, the GENIUS which Hitler's overall military operations. I also see the GENIUS in BUSH's lies, deception and the ability to influence!!(not that hitler did not do the same!!" quote:We can agree that there are alot of parallels between the German policy of the 1930s and U.S. policy over the last 30 years. History has a tendency to repeat itself. AND that is EXACTLY my point: Concerning the Legitimacy in presenting the coorelation between the PRE WW2 German government and it's population's mind-set; with the Bush Administration and it's population's mind set. They are INGENIUSLY circumnavigating EVERYTHING our constitution and way of life have stood for, since the beginning. FOR THE PEOPLE; BY THE PEOPLE/FREEDOMS FROM UNDUE SEARCH AND SEIZURE/RIGHTS FOR THE ACCUSED/FREEDOM OF CHOICE/etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc. ps: not to mention INVADING weaker countries for their RESOURCES...
street228 Posted May 10, 2004 Report Posted May 10, 2004 quote:4: Again, don't kid yourself. We just got lucky with that. Do you think that Hitler would have gone as far as he did if we intervened sooner in that mess. But nooooo, as usual we sat on our a$$es while he trampled and took over Europe and anyone else he could think of he'd like to take over. And Lost....I think the question that should be asked of us is: "how far do WE intend to go, who will intervene to stop US; HOW and at WHAT cost to US or the rest of the world?" These are questions we should be asking ourselves, and our leaders; opposed to being caught up in the mob mentality against muslims, which is likened unto the mob mentality we presented toward the asians during ww2/korea/vietnam eras. there is one thing which really bugs me about the presented attutudes of the American population, since bush started his media campaign to INVADE IRAQ. IRAQ, was NEVER our personal enemy, and we successfully repelled their invasion of Kewait 12 years ago. why must we confuse the events of 9/11 with this administrations need to control the iraqi people, or it's government, or it's country's resource? NOT ONE IRAQI did ANYTHING to ANY ONE AMERICAN, until we sent troops into THEIR country. How can we be so blind, as a people, that we cannot see, the marring of our character(as a nation), and the guilt of our actions: FOR EVERY DEATH INCURRED during this horrible(i.e.WAR: been there, seen it) occupation. I still wake up at night seeing things, no man should ever witness. If the american people could see the horror which has ensued, they would NEVER opt. for WAR, and would AGAIN reserve WAR as a truly LAST resort. Bush and his preemption to WAR? I pray the man burns in the very hell he perceives his GOD would preserve him from. sorry, but that is how I feel about it.
Guest Shingen Posted May 10, 2004 Report Posted May 10, 2004 quote:Rosevelt was caught in a catch/22; thus, My answer is again (YES) Yes Roosevelt would've let the "Final Solution" continue, or yes, you think Roosevelt would've finally entered the war against the Axis countries even without the attack on Pearl Harbor? If I remember correctly ( and I could very well be wrong ), but didn't Roosevelt take office in 1933(4), and Hitler began construction for the instruments of his "Final Solution" in 1932 ( or there-abouts ). That's almost a 6 years gap without a "catch-22". Also what about all the Japanese atrocities against the Korean and Chinese populace? It seems America wasn't too worried about all that carnage until after Pearl Harbor. quote:No more than any other, well read and inquisitive, person, who is willing to see more than one perspective concerning: TRUTH.See, there's my dilemma. Actual, real truth can only be seen by someone that can comprehend ALL sides, in EVERY context, under ALL conditions, relative to everything else that is going on. The only person that fits that description is God. Perception and interpretation of "truth" isn't truth. It's opinion, observation and conjecture. quote:AND that is EXACTLY my point: Concerning the Legitimacy in presenting the coorelation between the PRE WW2 German government and it's population's mind-set; with the Bush Administration and it's population's mind set. They are INGENIUSLY circumnavigating EVERYTHING our constitution and way of life have stood for, since the beginning. FOR THE PEOPLE; BY THE PEOPLE/FREEDOMS FROM UNDUE SEARCH AND SEIZURE/RIGHTS FOR THE ACCUSED/FREEDOM OF CHOICE/etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.Have you ever read Machiavelli's The Prince? What about Mein Kampf, by Adolph Hitler? How about the Communist Manifesto? Here's a better one: Tzu Sun's The Art of War. [ 05-10-2004, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Shingen ]
LostInSpace Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 I've carried this over into a new topic New Topic
Guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 quote:Originally posted by street: quote:4: Again, don't kid yourself. We just got lucky with that. Do you think that Hitler would have gone as far as he did if we intervened sooner in that mess. But nooooo, as usual we sat on our a$$es while he trampled and took over Europe and anyone else he could think of he'd like to take over. And Lost....I think the question that should be asked of us is: "how far do WE intend to go, who will intervene to stop US; HOW and at WHAT cost to US or the rest of the world?" These are questions we should be asking ourselves, and our leaders; opposed to being caught up in the mob mentality against muslims, which is likened unto the mob mentality we presented toward the asians during ww2/korea/vietnam eras. there is one thing which really bugs me about the presented attutudes of the American population, since bush started his media campaign to INVADE IRAQ. IRAQ, was NEVER our personal enemy, and we successfully repelled their invasion of Kewait 12 years ago. why must we confuse the events of 9/11 with this administrations need to control the iraqi people, or it's government, or it's country's resource? NOT ONE IRAQI did ANYTHING to ANY ONE AMERICAN, until we sent troops into THEIR country. How can we be so blind, as a people, that we cannot see, the marring of our character(as a nation), and the guilt of our actions: FOR EVERY DEATH INCURRED during this horrible(i.e.WAR: been there, seen it) occupation. I still wake up at night seeing things, no man should ever witness. If the american people could see the horror which has ensued, they would NEVER opt. for WAR, and would AGAIN reserve WAR as a truly LAST resort. Bush and his preemption to WAR? I pray the man burns in the very hell he perceives his GOD would preserve him from. sorry, but that is how I feel about it. Can we get real here and use some common sense and some logical thinking skills? Iraq was a clear and present danger to us and the stability of the Middle East. Saggam Insane was financing the Palestinian Terrorists, he was financing and helping train other terrorist groups including Al Quaeda. That plane in the desert was just a plane in the desert? Right? Come on. The chemical and biological weapons that he had were just ghosts, right? The fact that terrorists tried to attacl Jordan with chemical weapons with all the fingerprints of Iraqi weapons doesn't mean a thing does it? We were too late, we should have invaded earlier, we got rid of Saddam and cut the money flow to most of these terrorist groups, and freed 25 million people from a roque dictator, but we also missed the fricking weapons, because Saddam had MORE then enough time to transfer the bulk of them to the Baath party in Syria, which is now handing them out to other terrorist groups. And the socalled insurgents, are Muslim Milititia and others are terrorists, taking orders from a very small few fanatics, that MUST be PUT down. Their form of Islam has NO place in a modern world, and the fanatics need to be A: Killed, or B: imprisoned. THey are a cancer which will end up destroying us all if it is no excised. And this Muslim mentality you are talking about, I haven't the foggiest notion of what you are seeing. Because I have NOT seen one mosque bombed or damaged in the US, I have not seen one Muslim placed in custody because they were Muslim, and most of all I see no Backlash against Muslims because of some of their fanatical and murderous crazies in that far side of that religion. Your thought process is a total mystery to me, and how you can come to such conclusions is a sad state of affairs. Think, THINK, THINK..... Logical progression of facts and intelligence tells us that WE HAD TO TAKE OUT SADDAM Housien, there was NO other option. Too bad it was too late to get the WMD's, but if those weapons are actually used, I guaranteee, we will be invading another country, that little country is called Syria. The weapons do exist, our intelligence was gutted to a point where we didn't get them in time, and the UN and France and Germany piddled around enough for us to miss them before they were moved. There is indeed a DIRECT link between Al Quaeda and Iraq/Saddam Insane, and the information is solid, too bad the media in this country ignore it, just as they ignore anything that shows what we have accomplished in this war and the ACTUAL reasons for it. By the way, the terrorists are going to attack us with a chemical or biological weapon, it's gonna happen, there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. What are you going to say, when it is discovered that that Chemical weapon came from an Iraqi stockpile? What are you going to say? Are you going to say that we should never have invaded Iraq, or are you going to say, We should have invaded earlier, Bush dropped the ball, as soon as he was in office, he should have invaded Iraq and taken those WMD's away before they were moved? So which will it be Street? Because you can't have it BOTH ways. When we get attacked with a WMD, and it is found out that terrorist got it from the Iraqi stockpile, are you gong to say, We should never have invaded Iraq, or that Bush should have had us invade Iraq earlier? I know what the Dems and the press are gonna say, what are you gonna say? [ 05-11-2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Jaguar ]
street228 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 Jag, I need say no more. I have spoken the most intelligent and logical statements possible. Every man woman and child in the United States, has need to take heed. for you to repeat all the lies and propaganda, which was used to compel the citizens of this Great country, to carry out this single act of immorality, is extremely pathetic. That which is currently being revealed, and all the facts which have been surfacing, over the last year, have disproven 90% of your entire statement. You show a great need to disregard ANYTHING the media says, provided it does not agree with the mind set, Which that SAME media has instilled with-in you. ALL those SUPPOSED actions, which IRAQI would do to us, very well may be their agenda NOW. And NOW, who could blame them. We have Invaded their country. Killed many thousands of innocents(maybe the relatives of those innocents welcomes our liberation..yeah right!).Now there are publicly displayed examples of our actions: that we TORTURE and ABUSE. Only the AMERICAN people(of all throughout the world) believe these things do not happen, or that they only happen in small isolated cases, during WAR. That in itself, should tell you something, as to how much the media controls the way Americans think. Again, I would like you to point me to your source of information, as to the connections between IRAQ and the ALQUEDA...or TERRORIST!!..It simply does not exist!!!! Even the president and his WAR TEAMS have been running to keep up with their retreat from all the accusations they made prior to the war. Point me to your information as to the WMD. You speak of 25 million people delivered from a rougue dictatorship. That again is old propaganda. Sure, I give you it was a harsh dictatorship...so how about america jumping on N.KOREA..come on use common sense. Syria Next?? it would figure! Still saying, there is no parrallel between Adolf/bush? Again, the question is how far are we going to go, and How will WE be stopped, and by who?. What are you saying? The END justifies the MEANS???? or its ok to kill hundreds of thousands of those 25 million to liberate a couple million who want liberation???? You forget. THOSE (SO CALLED) Terrorist are a product of our internatiional policies. They were NEVER a threat to the UNITED STATES, until we armed them, used them, and discarded them. AND THAT is the AL QUEDA.(Afghan/pakistan boarder pushton army backing, via: U.S. policies set up to put strain on the russian economy during russia's involvement in afghanistan) That is where the training camps are, and WE built, supplied, and trained them to do what they do best...against the russian backed northern alliance. We abandoned them when russia pulled out of afghanistan. THAT is when they used those same training fecilities and methods, and turned against us(and with some justification, I might add) AL Queda, may NOW be our sworn enemy, but this garbage of IRAQ as the TERRORIST, WMD and IRAQ as a a threat, WAS and IS a blatant, out right LIE, used to promote the INVASION of IRAQ. It has been PROVEN as such, and ADMITTED as FALSE, for what ever excuse, they choose to use. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO! AL QUEDA CONNECTION WITH OUR ACTIONS IN IRAQ!!!! again POINT ME TO YOUR INFORMATION SOURCE!!!!! [ 05-11-2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: street ]
Guest Shingen Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 quote:AL Queda, may NOW be our sworn enemy, but this garbage of IRAQ as the TERRORIST, WMD and IRAQ as a a threat, WAS and IS a blatant, out right LIE, used to promote the INVASION of IRAQ. It has been PROVEN as such, and ADMITTED as FALSE, for what ever excuse, they choose to use.If all of these murderers you claim are merely Iraqi dissidents fighting American Imperialism, then why is it that they all wear hoods and masks when they behead prisoners for the World media? Surely, if they are loyal Iraqi freedom-fighters, then the Iraqi people would protect them from the horrible American Occupation Forces.
street228 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 quote:If all of these murderers you claim are merely Iraqi dissidents fighting American Imperialism, then why is it that they all wear hoods and masks when they behead prisoners for the World media? because they are smarter than those americans who tormented those iraqi held in the prison?(took pictures of their own identity while committing the crime..lol) Maybe, they didnt want to end up dead or in prison? would you hide your face, if an enemy bent to kill you,saw you fighting?..I know commen sense would dictate one to hide one's identity when fighting an enemy from within the enemy camp. maybe the same logic to you? If they are terrorist, and all terrorist are bent on self sacrifice, they would not be wearing hoods?; therefore, they are not terrorist? I never said they were ALL freedom fighters, but every day I can assure to you, more and more are!!!! Which Iraqi people would protect them? If we were overwhelmed by a military force or occupation, you could bet your LIFE there would be millions of americans cooperating with the enemy, for their own survival. And THOSE Americans would soon be your enemy too, unless you succumbed to the occupation. All I ask you to do: Is turn off Bush rhetoric for five minutes, and put yourself in the AVERAGE IRAQI's shoes. Then tell me how GREAT, EXCITING, and HONORABLE WAR and KILLING is!! edit: you know, I HAVE killed(not a thing I am proud of, though it felt necessary at the time) I have held my best friends brains in his head, hoping against all odds we would both survive. There are NO winners in WAR; Thus, it NEEDS to be reserved for ABSOLUTELY a LAST resort! [ 05-11-2004, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: street ]
Guest Shingen Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 Nevermind. You keep talking in circles and don't even realize it. I don't buy into "Bush rhetoric" "liberal rhetoric" or "media rhetoric", but I also don't ignore the obvious to support my own ideology.
street228 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 quote:Nevermind. You keep talking in circles and don't even realize it. I don't buy into "Bush rhetoric" "liberal rhetoric" or "media rhetoric", but I also don't ignore the obvious to support my own ideology. ok, you don't buy into the BUSH RHETORIC etc.etc.(I can accept that) I suppose, I am so use to being challenged by "so called facts", which are derived from the political arena, I jumped the gun on you...My apologies. I would never ask an individual to ignore their own ideologies, provided they inflict no undue harm on innocent human beings. Now, tell me how I talk in circles, and am not aware of it........(?)
Guest Shingen Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 I think that if you hold up those pictures of the so-called "prision abuse", and you hold up the video currently being shown of the beheading of an American civilian, that it becomes obvious which side holds the most "moral ground" I think that it obvious, given the entire written history of Mankind, that in certain circumstances the end does in fact justify the means. I think it's obvious, that if those terrorist were as sound in the beliefs, as they are secure in their willingness to slaughter innocents, that they would be proud to display their faces to the world, and confront their enemies without having to hide from the general Iraqi Populace. Should I keep going?
street228 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 quote:I think that if you hold up those pictures of the so-called "prision abuse", and you hold up the video currently being shown of the beheading of an American civilian, that it becomes obvious which side holds the most "moral ground"I thought you didnt go for the media rhetoric?. ...It is the PICTURES that are NOT shown, which concerns me!!! Been there..seen first hand what happens in situations similar to the IRAQ occupation. That American CIVILIAN was part of an invading occupational army, to them, and holds no distinction from our military; thus ,is not exempt from attack or execution within a war zone.(we execute some of them everyday, just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Many of which are innocent, I assure you). do you really think we stop, when they stop firing? hell, Americans are'nt saints in the battlefield. Many Iraqi civilians have witnessed the TRUTH of what goes on when an army occupies by force. MANY innocent civilians are killed. WOW, they killed some of our CIVILIANS?(who should not have even been there) sorry, but it is...almost funny, how most AMericans react. We as a people want to KILL, but its some inhumane atrocity, when one of us gets killed.(so we have developed ways to kill, where we cant be reached.) We have the same logic, here at home, with our local police. police can try to kill someone for running, but that someone better not try to defend themselves. We as AMERICANS are so brainwashed in accepting RULE by COHERSIVE force,(threat of death) It has become incomprehensable, that someone would do the same, or worse to those instigating that rule by force, or even to oppose it. quote: I think that it obvious, given the entire written history of Mankind, that in certain circumstances the end does in fact justify the means. I do NOT believe HISTORY will establish this AGRESSIVE act, by us, as one of those "CERTAIN" circumstances you speak of. quote: I think it's obvious, that if those terrorist were as sound in the beliefs, as they are secure in their willingness to slaughter innocents, that they would be proud to display their faces to the world, and confront their enemies without having to hide from the general Iraqi Populace. would YOU walk up to a GRIZZLY with a buck knife, and attempt to run him from your domain? I think not...and that would not mean you were any less of a man. BESIDES, you keep referring to those in iraq as TERRORIST. (again, I thought you didnt buy into bush or media rhetoric?) People who fight INVADING armies, are NOT TERRORIST!!; though I am sure this whole escapade, has given those around the world a common cause for a more cohesive Terrorist movement against us. Even the JEWS sold each other out, that they might survive the DEATH camps. It is human nature. Those within an underground...MUST hide from the general population, or risk being exposed by a TRAITOR. There are historical examples of many such occurances in similar situations. quote: Should I keep going? If you feel you must [ 05-11-2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: street ]
Guest Shingen Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 quote:I thought you didnt go for the media rhetoric?. ...It is the PICTURES that are NOT shown, which concerns me!!! Been there..seen first hand what happens in situations similar to the IRAQ occupation. That American CIVILIAN was part of an invading occupational army, to them, and holds no distinction from our military; thus is not exempt from attact within a WAR ZONE.It seems you want to keep beating me over the head with your own rhetoric...and you've missed my point entirely. quote:would YOU walk up to a GRIZZLY with a buck knife, and attempt to run him from your domain?If that bear walked into my camp and killed one of my family, then I'd probably hunt it no matter what domain it was in. quote: People who fight INVADING armies, are NOT TERRORIST!!People who fight invading armies, and believe in some sort of God, don't behead people for the benefit of the World Press. It's quite obvious (at least to me), that there's something else going on besides the "liberation of Iraq for the Infernal Americans".
street228 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Posted May 11, 2004 quote:If that bear walked into my camp and killed one of my family, then I'd probably hunt it no matter what domain it was in. NOT one IRAQI killed ANY AMERICAN, until after we killed THOUSANDS of IRAQI!!...FACT! quote: People who fight invading armies, and believe in some sort of God, don't behead people for the benefit of the World Press. It's quite obvious (at least to me), that there's something else going on besides the "liberation of Iraq for the Infernal Americans". I suggest you do a little study concerning the history of customs throughout the world. They still chop off hands of thieves in some places, and stone those guilty of incest, adultry, and fornication. (many of the moral atrocities, we legalize and condone) Should they not be allowed their beliefs, as a people? just as we allow sodomy, homosexuality,and many other immoral acts within our society? We execute with electricity, running poison into peoples veins, gas chambers. so they chopped off a couple invaders heads and burned their bodies...wow...big difference!!. You keep forgetting, those people in those prisons were not TERRORIST, but most were put there for what we term misdomenor crimes, If I were one of those prisoners being humiliated and tormented in those SEXUAL pictures...there would be nothing in the world to stop me from killing every damn american I ran across,once freed, and for the rest of my life. You cannot imagine, how many may have been run through that kind of treatment, and then released for one reason, or another. would you deny your moral principles and just let it go? Possibly, being an american. But to them, that treatment is WORSE than death.
Guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Posted May 12, 2004 quote:Originally posted by street: would you deny your moral principles and just let it go? Possibly, being an american. But to them, that treatment is WORSE than death. Good, I hope it is worse then death, maybe it will stop them from killing innocent civilians. If there was EVER any doubt that Al quaeda had ties with Iraq, it is the beheading of this CIVILIAN communications specialist. They need to be humiliated, ot teach them that they will NOT get away with this crap any longer. If I were president, this is what I would tell the Arab world. These terrorists are YOUR garbage, DEAL with them, or we shall deal with you. If there is one more murder of an American, or Israele, or ANY other nationality by a Muslim extremist, Mecca glows in the dark, if it happens again, Saudi Arabia, glows in the dark, if it happens after that, Iran, then Syria, until the Muslims are wiped from the face of the earth. Either get your fanatics under control, or suffer for it. I am PISSED, this beheading has set me off like nothing else. If the Muslim fanatics do not watch, they are going to bring down a wrath like they have NEVER experienced before. Abject terror and humiliation or death are these scum understand, and it's about fricking time to bring it to them. Sadistic, fanatical, cowards, who will and should die because of their nonsensical belief system. It is becoming and us or them situation. And you did NOT answer the question Street, what happens when these maniacs attack us with a Biological or chemical weapon, that was made in Iraq and smuggled out before we invaded. Are you going to get pissed at Bush for not going in sooner, or are you going to say we had it coming? You better make up your mind, because, this, "we had it coming" hate america attitude is going to backfire on you BIG time. You are a VERY small minority, and the first time you spout that off, after another terrorist attack, don't expect to walk away unbloodied. We have just about had enough of this blame america for the terrorists nonsense. It is emotional feces, with no logical standing or facts to back it up. These poor terrorists, most of them are millionaires, Osama Bin Laden is a BILLIONAIRE!!! So it's NOT money, so it must be America that created the problem and we're just reaping what we sowed? What a crock of illogical, intellectually dishonest nonsense. They are Muslim, we are NOT, and these fanatics cannot abide it. They want world domination and will do whatever it takes to get it, and will use us, and Israel as the scapegoat to get there. And since you hate America, you eat it up....... Sorry, maybe you don't hate America, you just sound like it since Bush is in office, right? And why are you going to vote for Kerry? Because you hate Bush, or have you figured out what Kerry stands for? Because I am clueless at this point as to what he has to offer, except, "I'm not Bush.."
Avenger2099 Posted May 12, 2004 Report Posted May 12, 2004 I've been reading this political debate and have to say that im torn between streets and shingins debates. Leaning slightly more towards street. I also thought its kinda scary that the warmonger, as I see it, is the offensive advisor in a warmongering battlecruiser race... just thought I would add my thoughts. No offense to shingin but street seems slighty better informed although I do have one thing to say. This goes back awhile but Hitler was not a genius in any sense of the word, except perhaps lies, it was rather his advisors that were the intelligent ones. When ever Hitler took command of an operation it usually failed. I may not be as well educated or informed, sophmore in highschool, but I do belive what I have just said.
Steve Schacher Posted May 12, 2004 Report Posted May 12, 2004 quote:THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO! AL QUEDA CONNECTION WITH OUR ACTIONS IN IRAQ!!!! again POINT ME TO YOUR INFORMATION SOURCE!!!!!The Saddam-9/11 Link Confirmed Excerpt: quote: Important new information has come from Edward Jay Epstein about Mohammed AttaÔÇÖs contacts with Iraqi intelligence. The Czechs have long maintained that Atta, leader of the 9/11 hijackers in the United States, met with Ahmed al-Ani, an Iraqi intelligence official, posted to the Iraqi embassy in Prague. As Epstein now reports, Czech authorities have discovered that al-AniÔÇÖs appointment calendar shows a scheduled meeting on April 8, 2001 with a "Hamburg student." That is exactly what the Czechs had been saying since shortly after 9/11: Atta, a long-time student at GermanyÔÇÖs Hamburg-Harburg Technical University, met with al-Ani on April 8, 2001. Indeed, when Atta earlier applied for a visa to visit the Czech Republic, he identified himself as a ÔÇ£Hamburg student.ÔÇØ The discovery of the notation in al-AniÔÇÖs appointment calendar about a meeting with a ÔÇ£Hamburg studentÔÇØ provides critical corroboration of the Czech claim. Epstein also explains how Atta could have traveled to Prague at that time without the Czechs having a record of such a trip. Spanish intelligence has found evidence that two Algerians provided Atta a false passport.It's a conservative magazine, so you may be critical of the source. quote:NOT one IRAQI killed ANY AMERICAN, until after we killed THOUSANDS of IRAQI!!...FACT!If a husband doesn't kill his wife, but rather, hires a thug to kill his wife, can one say that the husband didn't kill his wife? If Saddam Hussein funded terrorists, and provided safe haven and training facilities for the terrorists who did kill Americans, is that not the same as the husband who hires a thug to kill his wife? Here's an interesting little tidbit from a recent news story, Terror Suspects Charged in NATO Bomb Plot: quote:A Turkish court filed terrorism charges against nine suspects Monday in connection with an alleged plot to set off a bomb at a NATO summit in Istanbul next month that President Bush is scheduled to attend. Private CNN-Turk television said three of the suspects had been plotting a suicide attack on Bush and other Western leaders at the summit, but officials could not confirm the report. Authorities detained 16 alleged members of Ansar al-Islam on Thursday in the northwestern province of Bursa, Gov. Oguz Kagan Koksal said. The suspects also planned to attack a synagogue in Bursa and rob a bank to raise funds, Koksal said. Notice how, since Saddam has been captured, terrorist groups like al-Islam are now forced to rob banks to raise funds? Previously, they were funded by Hussein, but that source of money has dried up.
Guest MIKE113 Posted May 12, 2004 Report Posted May 12, 2004 I find it hard to believe anyone who would have a picture of Adolph Hitler in their profile!
Guest Posted May 12, 2004 Report Posted May 12, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Avenger2099: I've been reading this political debate and have to say that im torn between streets and shingins debates. Leaning slightly more towards street. I also thought its kinda scary that the warmonger, as I see it, is the offensive advisor in a warmongering battlecruiser race... just thought I would add my thoughts. No offense to shingin but street seems slighty better informed although I do have one thing to say. This goes back awhile but Hitler was not a genius in any sense of the word, except perhaps lies, it was rather his advisors that were the intelligent ones. When ever Hitler took command of an operation it usually failed. I may not be as well educated or informed, sophmore in highschool, but I do belive what I have just said. Makes me sad to think what the public school has done to our childrens minds.... And I am a warmonger because I agree with President Bush that he should have attacked and destroyed Saddam Housien, that I believe that we should fight back against aggression and the killing of 3000 civilians by Islamofascist terrorists on 911? Do you think that the civilian worker in Iraq, who happened to be an American trying to help put the infrastructure back together, deserved to die, because we made Iraqi Insurgent prisoners put Women's panties on their heads? He was beheaded, ON VIDEO, they made him state his name, his mothers name, his fathers name, then his sisters and his brothers, then, as he was begging for his life, they slit his throat with a knife and as he screamed they cut his head off like an animal.... And this is somehow the same as making Iraqi prisoners put panties on their heads and stand around naked? Oh, and then they proudly displayed his head for the camera, while chanting Allah Akbar..... This is somehow the same? Come on, can we get real here? With this type of pansy attitude, we deserve to lose this war on terrorism, because it is survival of the fittest here dude. This is not a war like Vietnam, it is either Us or them. Either they die, or we die.... Make your choice, I've made mine..... [ 05-12-2004, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Jaguar ]
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