Civies? Soliders? Politics?

[RamStone]

What I dont get is there people who say we (The United States) shouldnt be in iraq becuase "we want gas" or "we want to change there culture".... First off this country need oil and without it we would fall into a depression, so instead of *****ing about it lets get somthing better to drive then these huge SUV's.... and changing a culture?

They say we cant find any weapons of mass destruction.... why? Becuase the Government was stupid and gave Saddam enough time to gide them in Iran or Syria.

And so what if we're changing a culture... it'll help stop this useless violance....

[Soback]

You are joking right.

First of all, 9/11 did not happen because of US involvement in the middle east, it happened because Arab society/nation/bliefs are by their nature a violent society that prides those who are strong within it and hates those who are strong outsid of it. Their whole beliefs are based on the notion of being better than their neighbors and if they are not then they must take what their neighbors have otherwise they will deem themselvs weak and dishonorable. There is over 10 other conflicts in this world that Arabs are involved in, and those conflicts have nothing to do with US, but with some Arab country attacking it's neighboring country because it wants power/land it's resources or purely because that country has insulted them.

Second, middle east will not stabilize, those countries have been there for thousands of years, way before US, european countries, ect.. and they have never been stable. Other civilizations have risen and fallen, created technological advances, medicine ect... in all this time countries in the middle east just dedicated their energy to fighting amongst themselvs and when they saw that their neighboring countries, instead of fighting, created technology and accumulated other riches, they went after theif neighbors.

So you really gotta be kidding when you say all those things.

And on another note, yes, I live in US, and since it's my country I do want it to to be the strongest and most powerfull country in the world, so when it attacks another I will fight for it to maintain it's supperiority because that way my children will not have to be threatened by any other nation that might become a threat to us.

[ 06-13-2004, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Soback ]

[street228]

quote:

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First of all, 9/11 did not happen because of US involvement in the middle east,

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There is some serious LACK of information, on your part...sorry. 9/11 was a DIRECT result, due to the ACTIONS of the United States in the Middle East.

This is NOT opinion, There are over 20 years worth of FACTS which dictate this!!

[Soback]

Yes, I would fight for my country to protect it's supperiority. I guess that's exactly why Netherlands is considered a pushover country that's famous for legall drugs and prostitution world wide.

[Soback]

"And for the record, before Iran started to piss off the US, they werenÔÇÖt all that friendly either (people disappearing, killing minorities, you get the idea) ."

I guess that proves my point. That's exactly why they are fighting pretty much every country that they can. It's in THEIR SOCIETY AND CULTURE you genious.

[Guest]

They claim to understand the culture, but they don't.

If WE weren't bad, they wouldn't hate us and attack us, if we hadn't gotten involved in Iraq in the Gulf war, they wouldn't hate us, and wouldn't have attacked us.

Tell's you EXACTLY how much they know about the Muslim countries in the Middle East.

They are poor, because they choose to be, they made the choice to worship at the altar of death.

They are now reaping what they have sown, and once they are no longer a danger to the world, we will quit coming down upon them like the wrath of god.

They worship death and destruction, which is why they live as they do, we are a danger to those in power in those countries, because when the people realize how powerful Democracy and a free enterprise system is, they will beg for it, they will plead for it, they will fight for it.

So, we must be destroyed before that can happen.

It is already happening in Iran, and the Mullahs are scared to death, it is happening in Iraq, and the media and peaceniks here are scared to death.

Our system works, and has always worked, and they will be the ones destroyed, and the ones they hold power over through terror and fear and religious fanaticism will be free to do as they wish.

They attack us because we are powerful and PROVE that their system does nothing but bring torment and poverty to their people, and so we must be expunged so that their religion and political power remains intact.

THe liberals do not get it, and never will get it.

They worship at the altar of isolationism and secularism, and socialism. ALL of which have been historically proven to be a fallacy.

[weegee_101]

Jag, I can't stand it any more... I try to stay in the sideline, but I just can't right now.

quote:

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If WE weren't bad, they wouldn't hate us and attack us, if we hadn't gotten involved in Iraq in the Gulf war, they wouldn't hate us, and wouldn't have attacked us.

Tell's you EXACTLY how much they know about the Muslim countries in the Middle East.

They are poor, because they choose to be, they made the choice to worship at the altar of death.

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Have you EVER read anything from the Koran? Islam is a peaceful religion. However, just like any other religion they have their extremists. There are Christian extremists, there are Jewish extremists, there are even Hindu extremists! Extremism exhists, don't blame a entire religion for the action of extremists.

Power is everything in poor societies! You with all of your history should know this. Think of Feudalism; Money = Power. Hence one highly accepted reason for terrorism and such within the United States. Terrorism is more than just people killing for a cause; it includes some cases of fraud, illicit trade, and the likes. You want more on terrorism, check out the Federation of American Scientists website! It has TONS of reading material on all KINDS of terrorism.

They hate us because we have money. Remember, money equals power in poor societies.

quote:

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THe liberals do not get it, and never will get it.

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Jag, the political spectrum is a measurement of ACTIONS! IT IS NOT A CLASSIFICATION OF PARTIES. Not all democrats think liberal; there are democrats who think conservatively. You need to get out of that idiotic stereotype of yours that all democrats are liberal and they all want socialism and and and. IT gets old! Ok, we've heard it a million times! The democratic party does not believe in isolationism, what it does believe in is attempting to find a peaceful resolution rather than to jump to war! Look at the Clinton administrations first term; they came close to helping to achieve putting an end to the Israeli-Palestinian fighting, but someone who was afraid shot the key Israeli component in that deal!

What about Bosnia. Mogidishu? Further back? Korea? All conflicts that took place during a democratic administration.

What is truly hurting our political system is the fact that Democrats and Republicans can no longer get along. Our country is being split in two; a political civil war is beginning to take shape. If you don't believe me, just watch both Bush's and Kerry's campaigns, both are lying about everything, just to get elected. Yea, its their job, but what happened to the days where politicans we're elected because of how well they did the job? No, America elects whoever has the flashist campaign. Therefore, our system is no longer functioning as it should Jag... Didn't George Washington warn of this happening one day.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cmdr. WeeGee:

Jag, I can't stand it any more... I try to stay in the sideline, but I just can't right now.

quote:

---

If WE weren't bad, they wouldn't hate us and attack us, if we hadn't gotten involved in Iraq in the Gulf war, they wouldn't hate us, and wouldn't have attacked us.

Tell's you EXACTLY how much they know about the Muslim countries in the Middle East.

They are poor, because they choose to be, they made the choice to worship at the altar of death.

---

Have you EVER read anything from the Koran? Islam is a peaceful religion. However, just like any other religion they have their extremists. There are Christian extremists, there are Jewish extremists, there are even Hindu extremists! Extremism exhists, don't blame a entire religion for the action of extremists.

Power is everything in poor societies! You with all of your history should know this. Think of Feudalism; Money = Power. Hence one highly accepted reason for terrorism and such within the United States. Terrorism is more than just people killing for a cause; it includes some cases of fraud, illicit trade, and the likes. You want more on terrorism, check out the Federation of American Scientists website! It has TONS of reading material on all KINDS of terrorism.

They hate us because we have money. Remember, money equals power in poor societies.

quote:

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THe liberals do not get it, and never will get it.

---

Jag, the political spectrum is a measurement of ACTIONS! IT IS NOT A CLASSIFICATION OF PARTIES. Not all democrats think liberal; there are democrats who think conservatively. You need to get out of that idiotic stereotype of yours that all democrats are liberal and they all want socialism and and and. IT gets old! Ok, we've heard it a million times! The democratic party does not believe in isolationism, what it does believe in is attempting to find a peaceful resolution rather than to jump to war! Look at the Clinton administrations first term; they came close to helping to achieve putting an end to the Israeli-Palestinian fighting, but someone who was afraid shot the key Israeli component in that deal!

What about Bosnia. Mogidishu? Further back? Korea? All conflicts that took place during a democratic administration.

What is truly hurting our political system is the fact that Democrats and Republicans can no longer get along. Our country is being split in two; a political civil war is beginning to take shape. If you don't believe me, just watch both Bush's and Kerry's campaigns, both are lying about everything, just to get elected. Yea, its their job, but what happened to the days where politicans we're elected because of how well they did the job? No, America elects whoever has the flashist campaign. Therefore, our system is no longer functioning as it should Jag... Didn't George Washington warn of this happening one day.

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I agree with you 100%, they hate us because we have money, and the system is NOT working as it should.

BUT, Bush is doing EXACTLY the right thing in attacking these guys where they live, as far as I am concerned anyway. Because if they hate us because of our money, they had BETTER fear us because of our strength!!

[weegee_101]

quote:

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Because if they hate us because of our money, they had BETTER fear us because of our strength!!

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I agree, but thats what special forces are for, namely Delta Force. You hit the terrorists where they sleep while they're sleeping.

The thing is though they attack in fear. Just like we're attacking them. Fear is a very dynamic emotion, it can work any of a thousand ways. For example, if Bush didn't fear them he most likely wouldn't have used the bad evidence to show a link between Iraq and Al Quaeda(sp?). Note, I call it bad evidence because it was deemed not credible, which in our Justice system (which foreign policy from several presidents, including both Bush's has extended internationally when concerning us) would not use.

My issue with Bush is that he's secretive and frankly, as bad of a lier as Clinton. I know you're an open minded person Jag; go pick up "Worse than Watergate" by John Dean (the model of a true conservative democrat IMO). Before you jump on me, it is not yet another Bush bashing book(Thank GOD!). In fact almost everything that Dean writes that Bush has done is backed up by normally 2 or more sources. It also accuses other politicians of obsessive secrecy.

If you ask me Bush is the model Active/Negative President. Just look at him with the whole gay rights thing. He lures the gay voters in, then when he gets elected he begins to push for an amendment banning gay marriage. I don't give a damn about gay marriage, and frankly I find it appaling that a President would try to get an amendment banning something in this country just because the Christian voters want it (research it, he never considered it until a Christian activist group approached him with it).

Back on to Iraq though, I'm torn as to what was right. Yes, Iraq no longer was cooperating with the United Nations; No, Iraq is a free(I say that loosely) soverign state. Yes, he could have WMD capabilities; No, he didn't have enough time for a nuke and mobile labs are inefficient.

Its a two sided never-ending useless debate, what needs to happen is rather than bickering what was right or wrong, the American people need to start concentrating on finishing up with Iraq, pulling our troops out, and fixing up the homefront.

Personally, I don't like any of the candidates this year. None of them have grabbed me yet, which disappoints me because this is my first year I get to vote for a president. I'm not voting for Nader, ever, for obvious reasons. I feel Bush is too distrustful to be our President, so I'm not going to vote for him. Kerry......... um, I hate him; he's the model "New" democrat who has few morals and is as bent on election as Bush is. I guess it'll depend on who Bush and Kerry choose for their running mates.