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Takvah

So now that Bush has won...

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Now onto the Electoral College that some of you seem to despise.

Let me try to explain the reasoning behind the Electoral College.

First off, this country is a Republic, NOT a Democracy, let's understand that from the getgo.

When it was set up, the house was the peoples part of the Federal government, the Senate was the States part of the federal government, the Senators were assigned via the legislators of each state, NOT popularly elected. Their job was to make sure to protect the rights of the states, that is why each state has 2 senators.

The president is elected by the states, NOT the people, this does 2 things, A: keeps the Republic in mind at all times, B: Makes sure that the most populative states could NOT control the Federal government with their huge majority of voters.

Earlier in our history, the legislators decided on the electors, the people DID NOT vote on it, so the majority party of each state would give their electoral votes to their parties candidate, Some states chose to do it that way, other states chose to put it up for a vote by the people and chose their electoral votes that way. All depended on the state, and how it wanted to do it.

THe fact is that the Electoral college does 2 things, it protects the smaller states from being overwhelmed and having NO voice in the federal government, because they would ALWAYS be outvoted by the states with more population.

And it allows the states to show thier preferences and protect their interests.

Now, do you see how it was originally set up?

Senate was for the states, house was for the people, and the executive was chosen by the states, NOT by the people.

The people have NEVER and should NEVER directly pick the president, that would make us a democracy, and we are NOT a democracy.

We are a Republic, HUGE difference...

You want a democracy, move to Europe, our system works just fine, no need to fix what ain't broke.

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I understand how each state having two senators protects smaller states from being overwhelmed by larger ones and so forth, but what would be a down side to a pure populist vote for the president?

Are not the electoral votes driven by population (# electoral votes = # Senators + # Representatives) anyway?

quote:

The people ... should NEVER directly pick the president

Do you state this because it would be against the republic contruct or because it would be a disaster?

I'm not being thick here, I just cannot see a down side to a president being elected by the people directly.

This would be democratic, yes, but what would be the threat?

quote:

I just hope the next election is free of the GOP smear machine

I don't see this happening for a long long time.

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Democracies are a disaster, EVERY time that they are tried, that is why our founding fathers created a Republic, hoping that it would last longer then a Democracy, at the rate it is going though, it will become a total democracy, and we'll be screwed...

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The electoral college will change at some point and hopefully it will be through the abolishment of it. It wouldn't have made a difference in this election since Bush won the clear majority. And we are fortunate that it hasn't been a hindrance to the popular vote more than a few times, but I think that will change as our country continues to grow.

As for protecting the states with lesser population, it's a noble idea but one who's time has expired.

Using terrorism as an example, which states are more at risk? The most populous like New York, California etc.. in essence the 'blue states'. Which states contribute more to our economy and overall success of our country? Again the 'blue states' and those that have large cities and the population to support large companies and financial institutions.

Removing the electoral college will not automatically make us a true democracy and would only serve the interests of the majority as it should be. All it does now is invalidate the choice and will of half of our population and provide clear strategic choices for those campaigning for office of the President. It allows and forces political campaigns to focus on the select few states that have the potential to sway an election in the interest of a given party. Kind of defeats the whole idea of equal representation doesn't it?

The political system in our country is broken and needs to be fixed and we should start with the electoral college.

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quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

The electoral college will change at some point and hopefully it will be through the abolishment of it. It wouldn't have made a difference in this election since Bush won the clear majority. And we are fortunate that it hasn't been a hindrance to the popular vote more than a few times, but I think that will change as our country continues to grow.

As for protecting the states with lesser population, it's a noble idea but one who's time has expired.

Using terrorism as an example, which states are more at risk? The most populous like New York, California etc.. in essence the 'blue states'. Which states contribute more to our economy and overall success of our country? Again the 'blue states' and those that have large cities and the population to support large companies and financial institutions.

Removing the electoral college will not automatically make us a true democracy and would only serve the interests of the majority as it should be. All it does now is invalidate the choice and will of half of our population and provide clear strategic choices for those campaigning for office of the President. It allows and forces political campaigns to focus on the select few states that have the potential to sway an election in the interest of a given party. Kind of defeats the whole idea of equal representation doesn't it?

The political system in our country is broken and needs to be fixed and we should start with the electoral college.

And you would destroy the country in the process, if you can't see that, there is nothing I can do for you.

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quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

Show me one church that allows women to rise to the highest position of power in it's ranks.


umm... ok

How about the The Episcopal Church?

United Methodist Church?

Congregationalists?

Presbyterian Church?

United Church of Canada?

United Church of Christ?

Lutheran Church?

(The list goes on...)

Or I could talk about how the clergy in the Unitarian Universalist(UU) Church is over 30% female...

Even though women are discriminated against in almost all mainstream churches there are many churches today that allow women to be ordained(see above).

Out of those churches that allow women to be ordained I don't believe any of them have specific laws that restrict them from rising in power.

References:

Hartford Institute for Religion Research

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/default.html

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umm your wrong the Chruch of Christ does not allow women to be the leaders I know because I go to the Church of Christ

We go strictly by what the bible says and nothing more

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Then there's the Salvation Army. I don't know the relative percentages of officers (pastors) worldwide, but the ratio of women to men officers in this country is over 50:50 and the fifth last General (the overall head of the entire movement) was a woman, Eva Burrows.

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quote:

Originally posted by Ockham:

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

Show me one church that allows women to rise to the highest position of power in it's ranks.


umm... ok

How about the The Episcopal Church?

United Methodist Church?

Congregationalists?

Presbyterian Church?

United Church of Canada?

United Church of Christ?

Lutheran Church?

(The list goes on...)

Or I could talk about how the clergy in the Unitarian Universalist(UU) Church is over 30% female...

Even though women are discriminated against in almost all mainstream churches there are many churches today that allow women to be ordained(see above).

Out of those churches that allow women to be ordained I don't believe any of them have specific laws that restrict them from rising in power.

References:

Hartford Institute for Religion Research

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/default.html


Alright, I'll concede your point on those specifics. However, some of those Churches I have never heard of. The first women ordained in the Episcopal Church was in 1989 and the Unitarian church is suspect at best, having been called a 'cult' rather than a true religious following.

The underlying point is that the Church has long held women to a lesser position and despite the fact some churches are making strides to accept them more equally, thousands of years of oppression is not resolved through the appointment of a handful of women.

The problem isn't necessarily with a Churches specific 'laws' but rather the teachings of the Bible itself. The mistreatment of women goes back a long long way and the Church is to be held accountable in totality for perpetuating such antiquated beliefs. How many of the 'evangelicals' that turned out for Bush or the devout believers all throughout this country do you think are prepared to vote for a woman as President?

It's a big problem and the influence of religion is a large part of it.

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Bush's plan:

new_map1.jpg

ROFL... oh my.

For the first time in my life I have given thought to the idea of leaving this country for another, I'm not terribly serious, but if the current trends hold out that may be the best option.

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quote:

Originally posted by XOR:

hmmm i see hawaii is not important enough to be part of bush's plan

I think generally that's a map with the green being all the states that voted Bush. Since Hawaii didn't vote bush, they didn't get put on.

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quote:


Originally posted by Grizzle:

For the first time in my life I have given thought to the idea of leaving this country for another, I'm not terribly serious, but if the current trends hold out that may be the best option.


Well I'm right behind you, because I'm considering moving back to Europe. Maybe Switzerland this time instead of the UK.

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Guest

BY carumba, look at this map....

This counts all the counties and marks them in red and blue.

Red for Bush, Blue for Kerry...

BushCountry04Map.jpg

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

BY carumba, look at this map....

This counts all the counties and marks them in red and blue.

Red for Bush, Blue for Kerry...

BushCountry04Map.jpg

I'd like to have a larger copy of that. If any one comes across one in their net wanderings please let me know.

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thats insane. Amazing how the few population centers in some of those states can tip the balance.

Maybe we should switch to a system where the candidate who wins the greatest number of counties wins

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An american friend from Sweden summed up how I feel about things lately (referencing the election):

quote:

Can I just say before I go on: Last night, I realized that we live in the

alternate universe. We don't live in the good universe, where Spock has no

goatee, and where Kirk became captain by being good, not by killing

Christopher Pike. We live in the savage universe, where everybody walks

around wearing a gold sash. The people in charge here are painfully

short-sighted, and most people just don't give a damn--it's fine with them.

As I look at our nation from afar, I keep thinking of the alternate Spock's

command to Lieutenant Kyle: "Your agonizer, please." It's funny, because

all this time I thought we were in the good universe. Is the transporter

fixed yet? Can someone now beam us back, please?...

...Bit of a depressing birthday overall, though,

what with my native country turning into hell with the lid off.

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Goodmorning Geltlemen.

I think you may be misjudging the woman voter. I agree that the women who came out to vote for Bush, most likely did so for security. I do however belive they would come out in the same numbers to vote for a woman. Who else can protect our children better than another mother.

Ockham beat me to it! Grizzle my church treats men and women equally.

XOR: I think you are confusing the 2 churches. There is the Church of Christ which you belong to and the United Church of Christ which I belong to. The UCC does allow women to rise to power.

Race: You took the words right out of my mouth in regard to John McCain I was listening to him on the radio the other day, I really like him.

I think what truly need to change is all the bashing. I think the people running for president should be forced into explaining their belifs and focus more on explaining the issues and their plans for the country and stop the stupid personal attacks on each other. There are things that I did when I was in my 20's that don't define who I am today.

Aramike: Hope all is well!

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Here's an interesting map that I found on the internets. It proportionalizes the Red/Blue map by electoral vote in order to eliminate the exaggeration of sparsely populated areas. The links below the maps contain descriptions and methodologies.

<ahttp://bigpicture.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/us_map_electoral_prop.jpg>

The US, Electoral Map (proportional)

Additional maps along the same lines:

<ahttp://bigpicture.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/us_map_pop_density.jpg>

Popular Vote, Population Density

<ahttp://bigpicture.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/purpleusa.jpg>

Purple America

<ahttp://bigpicture.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/election2004textured_small.gif>

County-by-County vote, with Population

<ahttp://bigpicture.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/where.jpg>

Where did their votes come from?

<ahttp://newsimages.synacor.com/ap_photos/NYET26311051453.jpeg>

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Here are the final exit poll numbers, now that the complete untainted set is in:

<ahttp://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/11/06/weekinreview/nwr_ELECTORATE_041107.gif>

<ahttp://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/11/06/weekinreview/nwr_HIGHLIGHTS_INLINE.gif>

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