Arafat dies at 75

[LostInSpace]

Nice picture CNN gave this terrorist CNN.

[jamotto]

Now get rid of Ariel Sharon and peace might abound.

If only that Israeli extremist had not assassinated Rabin there could have been peace in Israel a decade ago.

[Supreme Cmdr]

I say good riddance.

[Charles Lindsey]

I'm just glad Arafat died of natural causes.

[Guest]

I wish the slime had suffered, and suffered long and painfully....

But he's dead, so good riddens to bad garbage as far as I am concerned.

And as far as Nomad's little thing about terrorism and Israel.

Israel targeted MILITARY targets, and ALWAYS gave warning ahead of time.

So to say that Israeli "terrorism" is like Palestinian terrorism is INSANE.

Israeli "terrorists" did NOT target women and children, and did not strap bombs to their bodies in order to get into the most crowded areas to kill as many innocents as possible along with themselves.

So to try and create some sort of moral comparison is not only stupid, it is illogical and ridiculous.

Now that Arafat is safely rotting in hell, maybe the Palestinians will actually make peace with Israel now and actually get the country they have wanted for so long.

I think that Israel ought to send the whole bunch back to Jordan and Syria, and keep the land for themselves, they earned it through war, but that's just me.

Oh and lest we forget who and what this slimeag did and was.

Yassir Arafat and terrorism

[ 11-11-2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

[jamotto]

USS Liberty: Did Israel commit one war crime to hide another?

quote:

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USS Liberty: Did Israel commit one war crime to hide another?

By James M. Ennes, Jr.,

The Washington Post Report on Middle East Affairs, May/June 1996

Washington Report readers know the story well. In 1967 on the fourth day of the Six Day War, the armed forces of Israel attacked the American intelligence ship USS Liberty for 90 minutes in international waters in broad daylight following several hours of close, low-level reconnaissance. Thirty-four men died, 171 were hurt, and the ship was so badly damaged that it had to be scrapped.

The government of Israel has lied about the circumstances ever since, telling a story markedly different from that told by American survivors. Congress has refused to question Israel's demonstrably false account, even though the State Department's own analysis finds the Israeli story to be untrue.

Yet the most pressing question remaining from that infamy is not whether the attack was deliberate. That was settled long ago for most reasonable people. The question is why Israel risked its cozy relationship with America by killing American seaman on the high seas.

Indeed, spokesmen for Israel use that question in Israel's defense. Why, they ask, would Israel risk alienating its American friends?

So why did Israel attack? Intelligence analysts and others have long supposed that Israel attacked to prevent the ship from reporting the impending invasion of the Golan Heights, then imminent despite cease fire pleas by the United States. Israel's defenders reject that explanation.

Recent reports in the Israeli and Egyptian press suggest another powerful possibility.

According to eyewitness accounts by Israeli officers and journalists, the Israeli Army - the army that claims to hold itself to a higher moral standard than other armies - executed as many as 1,000 Arab prisoners during the 1967 war.

Historian Gabby Bron wrote in the Yediot Ahronot in Israel that he witnessed Israeli troops executing Egyptian prisoners on the morning of June 8, 1967, in the Sinai town of El Arish.

Bron reported that he saw about 150 Egyptian POWs being held at the El Arish airport where they were sitting on the ground, densely crowded together with their hands held on the back of their necks. Every few minutes, Bron writes, Israeli soldiers would escort an Egyptian POW from the group to a hearing conducted by two men in Israeli army uniforms. Then the man would be taken away, given a spade, and forced to dig his own grave.

I watched as (one) man dug a hole for about 15 minutes, Bron wrote. Afterwards, the (Israeli military) policeman told him to throw the shovel away, and then one of them leveled an Uzi at him and shot two short bursts, each of three or four bullets.

Bron says he witnessed about ten such executions, until the grave was filled. Then an Israeli Colonel threatened him with a revolver, forcing him to leave the area.

USS Liberty was nearby

As those executions were underway, America's most sophisticated intelligence platform, USS Liberty, was less than 13 miles from El Arish.

We were close enough to see the town mosque with the naked eye. With binoculars we could make out individual buildings and might have seen the executions if we had looked in the right place.

Could our operators have heard voice radio messages revealing these killings? Did senior Israeli officers sanction the murders, or did they learn of them? How would they have reacted to the knowledge that USS Liberty was nearby and might have heard incriminating radio traffic?

Would they have been desperate enough to attack an American ship?

The Liberty attack was a war crime

The attack on USS Liberty was itself a war crime. US Navy Commander Walter Jacobsen, a Navy Legal Officer then doing graduate work at George Washington University, conducted an extensive legal analysis of the attack.

His conclusion, reported in the Winter, 1986, Naval Law Review, was that several aspects of the attack violated provisions of the Geneva Conventions -- war crimes. Specifically, Commander Jacobsen found that the attack was not legally justified, that it constituted an act of aggression under the United Nations Charter, that the use of unmarked aircraft, the wanton destruction of life rafts in the water, the jamming of international radio distress frequencies, and the failure of the torpedo boat commanders to render immediate assistance to a disabled and helpless enemy were all violations of international law.

US refusal to investigate violates Geneva Conventions

For years, USS Liberty survivors have asked Members of Congress to investigate the circumstances of the attack.

The Israeli version is untrue. We did fly a flag. We did identify ourselves. We were in international waters. They did not stop firing after seeing our flag as they claim, but continued to fire for another 40 minutes. The attack lasted 75 minutes and was not brief or accidental as Israel claims. We did not attempt to hide or escape when detected, as Israeli has charged. These things are easy to prove.

More important are the war crimes discussed by Commander Jacobsen. These things should have been investigated in 1967. Yet U.S. officials have ignored the offenses for 29 years, refusing to investigate or even to acknowledge them.

That refusal is itself a crime. The United States, as a signatory to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, is under the obligation to search for persons alleged to have committed, or to have ordered to be committed violations of the conventions, and to see that violators are brought to trial.

There are no exceptions. War crimes reported to government officials must be investigated and perpetrators tried.

Yet even this is ignored by U.S. officials. Liberty survivors for many years have reported the crimes committed against us and have requested an appropriate investigation. Despite the law, our complaints are ignored. No investigation of these charges has ever been held.

Recently Liberty's Joe Meadors, a former president and chairman of the Liberty Veterans Association, has filed formal complaints with the House and Senate Ethics Committees against members who have ignored our complaints.

To no surprise, these complaints, too, are being ignored.

Navy Refusal to investigate violates Navy Regulations

When the Liberty was attacked, Captain Joseph Tully in the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga received the ship's call for help and immediately sent jet aircraft to her assistance. Tully's jets were recalled almost immediately by orders from Washington. As a result, American jet fighter support was withheld for more than 90 minutes. By then the damage was done and 34 men were dead or dying.

Had those aircraft been sent, they would probably have arrived before the torpedo boats started their part of the attack. At least 25 lives could have been saved.

We survivors have tried for 29 years to learn why we were denied the immediate air support that we were promised in case of trouble. There are no answers. The Navy still will not even admit that help was not sent, even though one of the aircraft carrier commanders has offered to testify that he was forbidden to help us.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice, the body of law that governs every military person, provides that Any person subject to this chapter who before or in the presence of the enemy . . . does not afford all practicable relief and assistance to . . . troops, vessels, or aircraft of the armed forces . . . when engaged in battle . . . shall be punished by death or such punishment as a court martial may direct.

That provision was clearly violated when Liberty's air support was withheld. Yet the Navy will not even admit that we were not defended.

George Orwell suggested in 1945 that some animals are more equal than other animals. Some countries, too, it would seem.

James Ennes retired from the Navy in 1978 as a lieutenant commander after 27 years of enlisted and commissioned service. He was a lieutenant on the bridge of the USS Liberty on the day of the attack. His book on the subject, Assault on the Liberty (Random House, 1980), is a Notable Naval Book selection of the U.S. Naval Institute and was editors choice when reviewed in The Washington Post.

---

[Guest]

And your point is what Jamotto?

This somehow excuses Arafat's actions in targeting civilians?

This somehow puts Israel and the PLO on the same moral standing?

WHat's your point?

Because I missed it somehow?

[Spindoktor]

Sharon has changed his ideals and isn't the hawk that he once was. But who can blame any Israeli government for taking a hard line when they are surrounded by countries that want to annihilate them.

With that said, I'm not sure he's the man to bring peace. I'd like to see Shimon Peres get a crack at it with Abbas opposite him.

Arafat was nothing more than a terrorist dressed to give the PLO a diplomatic face. He never accepted anything short of a Palestinian state that completely replaced Israel.

[jamotto]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

And your point is what Jamotto?

---

The point is that the Israeli and Palestinian terrorism is cut from the same cloth. To say one is better than other is ludicrous. Neither is lily white. The Israeli terrorist's are responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel, the assasination of Folke Bernadotte and the bombing of American and British properties in Cairo and Alexandria.

[Guest]

First off, the King David Hotel was the base of operations for the British occupation forces, and they had PLENTY of warning to get the heck out.

Israel Targeted MILITARY, NOT CIVILIANS.

There is NO moral equivalence between the Israel terrorists of yesterday, and the PLO ones of today. NONE whatsoever, and to say that there is, is ridiculous in the extreme.

At least There is someone who got it right in the mainstream media.....

[jamotto]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

Israel Targeted MILITARY, NOT CIVILIANS.

---

Let's not forget the Israeli "false flag" or "black propaganda" operations whereby Israel deliberately sacrificed its own Jewish citizens or Ariel Sharon's infamous Unit 101 that killed Arab civilians.

quote:

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There is someone who got it right

in the mainstream media.....

---

I can certainly agree with this, Arafat was a cold blooded killer, unfortunately so was everybody on the other side of the fence.

[Kalshion]

Personally, I'm just glad the terrorist is dead

What pisses me off is how the media is treating this

I thought today was Veterians Day? Looks to me like it was Arafat Day, god **** communist media.... they care more about the terrorist's than about the people who PROTECT there freedom of speech

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by nomad:

Jamotto, I am afraid that you are loosing your time with Jag. Too many years of self-abuse looking at Merkava pics.

It's nice that you raised the Kind David & USS Liberty events. I was unaware of the last hypothese mentioned in the article, but I doubt any serious investigation will take place to confirm or infirm the allegations. The House of History is not swarming of genuinely interested spirits nowadays...

---

Genuinely interested parties?

What? Saying that the attack on the liberty was malicious and intentional.

I have seen a number of reports after the documents from that time were released, yet I have yet to see them get any play in the mainstream media, or with this conspiracy kooks.

I will let you guys find them, IF you are turly interested.

THe attack on the Liberty was a series of tragic mistakes on BOTH sides.

Anyone with a bit of common sense would think that what happened was indeed a tragic accident.

Because that is EXACTLY what it was.

If you need help actually finding the articles, if you even bother looking, let me know....

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by jamotto:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

Israel Targeted MILITARY, NOT CIVILIANS.

---

Let's not forget the Israeli "false flag" or "black propaganda" operations whereby Israel deliberately sacrificed its own Jewish citizens or Ariel Sharon's infamous Unit 101 that killed Arab civilians.

quote:

---

There is someone who got it right

in the mainstream media.....

---

I can certainly agree with this, Arafat was a cold blooded killer, unfortunately so was everybody on the other side of the fence.

---

Oh please Jamotto, you listen to too much anti-Israel propaganda.

First the Liberty, which has been PROVEN through previously SECRET documents that it was indeed a TRAGIC accident, and then the Unti 101, I assume you mean the "slaughter" of 69 "innocent Villagers in Qibya?

Yes, indeed, they chased off 100's of villagers, and rescued 2 and got them out of the village, then dynamited the buildings in the village, because the Fedayeen lived there, so they destroyed the buildings, NOT realizing that there were 69 people hiding within the buildings waiting for the Israelis to leave, because the Israelis normally just went in and chased the Fedayeen out, but left the buildings in the middle alone.

Not that time, and 69 people died because of it.

Again, NOT Sharons fault, and he tried and for the most part succeeded in chasing out a majority of the villagers. If he had had orders to kill civilians, he had a LOT of targets, and could have taken the body count to the high 500's. There were PLENTY of targets, if that had indeed been the mission.

It wasn't, and Arab civilians died because they hid, when they should have been running, just as they were ordered to.

And the false flag and black propaganda, yeah, kinda like Israel is the one that did 911, and planned it.

Yeah, right, sure thing Jamotto......

God, you guys will believe anything....

As long as it shows Israel as the monster.

Do you live in Europe Jamotto?

[jamotto]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

First the Liberty, which has been PROVEN through previously SECRET documents that it was indeed a TRAGIC accident

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a 1 hour and 15 minute accident.

[Supreme Cmdr]

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by jamotto:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

First the Liberty, which has been PROVEN through previously SECRET documents that it was indeed a TRAGIC accident

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a 1 hour and 15 minute accident.

---

Have you seen the reporting and the timelines that have been put together via the released documents?

I thought not......

[LostInSpace]

quote:

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Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Picture

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[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by nomad:

Jag, you don't get it...

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NO, I do get it, that's the point.

WHen a terrorist strikes, the Israeli's come in and demolish thier home, hoping that by making an example, they will keep others from doing the same.

But, since they are such violent animals, the Palestinians don't learn.

The Oslo accords gave the Palestinians almost 90% of what they wanted, 90%, that's almost unheard of, but Arafat couldn't let that happen, his main goal has ALWAYS been the total destruction of Israel, and a country called Palestine to replace it.

Palestine is an area, like the Grand Canyon, or the great Salt Flats etc, it has NEVER been a country.

The Palestinians have been helped only as much as necassary to stay alive and miserable, to be used against Israel in a death of a thousand cuts.

Their anger and violence is aimed directly at Israel, the children are taught from a very young age that Israel is the enemy, and MUST be destroyed, if they are to live as they want to.

Arafat said a NUMBER of times, the only REAL goal if a Palestinian state,was so that once a state existed, it would be legitimate, and could go after Israel and destroy it.

Either way, it's one and only goal has been the destruction of Israel, and the destruction of the Jewish population.

UNACCEPTABLE, as far as I am concerned, if the Palestinians wish to truly live in peace with Israel, I could see it, but until the Palestinians change thier underlying attitude, I don't think that ANYTHING should be done for them as far as a state is concerned.

If the Palestinians can elect a REAL government, give up thier goal of destroying Israel and KILLING it's Jewish population, and can keep from killing Jewish civilians in terrorist attacks, once those things are done, I believe that Israel should sit down and talk with them, but until then, the Palestinians should be locked down, until they get themselves to a point where they can join civilized society.

[Guest]

Whatever Mr Jag?

Excuse me?

THe PLO's MAIN goal has ALWAYS been the destruction of Israel, the slaughtering of it's Jewish population, and then the replacement being a Palestinian state.

If the Palestinians can learn to control thier hatred, create a truly Democratic government, then I think that Israel ought to deal, until then, they ought to be locked up in the lands they have and NOT allowed ANYTHING....