Wolferz Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 I am moving the discussion from the Chain gun thread, since it doesn't belong there and I was the one who, for all intensive purposes, moved the train down this track. The last few posts in the other thread took the arguement into new territory. Now, It's a given that terrorists and their actions in the name of Allah, are a major problem to all who don't see things their way but, wiping them from the face of the planet is not a proper cure, nor is it justifiable that anyone pay for all the hardware and manpower being used to put them in their place. Technically speaking, many of them were/are nothing more than victims of birth. Imagine growing up in a devout radical muslim household, where you are subjected to constant propaganda and physical abuse until you either tow the line or die at the hands of your father or other members of a radical Mullah's following. Not much different than the brainwashed views you boys are touting. You were raised with GI Joes and toy guns and you probably played Cowboys and Indians and Cops and Robbers as children. You went to school and were taught to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, One nation under God, indivisable, with liberty and justice for all. I don't recall the following words as being a part of that pledge;'Except for those who our government tells us are our enemy." It seems to me that a great many in this country have forgotten those words, especially the words "ALL" and LIBERTY" and especially those we elected to hold the public trust. They seem to hold those words as just so much rhetoric anymore as they seek to divide us from our beliefs, our judicial system, our guns, our liberty and our money. I for one think it would be cheaper to capture terrorists by finding their hideouts, dropping laughing gas on them, capture them, try them in an international court and sentence the guilty to a penal colony in some far flung place. Like Antarctica. The British did that long ago with Australia and their dregs of society. Only difference here would be that criminals sentenced to Loora Pente won't be creating a new nation on a frozen continent. If any of the criminal's brethren decided to mount a rescue operation... Orbiting satellites would detect them and one Cruise missile could stop that plot in it's tracks. A heckuva lot cheaper than screwing our economy and our great great grandchildren's future. Thoughts?..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DocHoliday Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 But that's exactly the point. War drives the economy. A solution to the problem is not really the goal. Thriving economy on the other hand is. And it can only thrive, when there is constant dynamics.. demand... expenditures.. more demand... You forgot to mention the 10 commendments. It all reminds me of acient Rome. People wanted action, victorious generals were heros back home, losing generals were soon forgotten. Ex-soldiers had access to politics, private armies, etc... Rome conquered, and conequered, until it got stretched to thin and was destroyed, by a bunch of barbarians. Today you'd actually call them terrorists... It's just history repeating itself. And my point in the other thread was and still is: violence creates more violence and it never ends... Until one side decides it's been enough and convinces the other of the utter senslessness. If you conquer a nation it just doesn't end it, they will never just surrender and be done with it.... Cheers, Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eclipse Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 I will admit that there are similarities between Rome and America, but there are quite a few differences as well. Rome kept the territory she conquered, America has a peculiar record of giving it back to the people we just conquered. We could go all day on a debate about the reasons for the fall of Rome; from stuff like too much lead to decadence, moral decline and lack of cohesion. Truth is no single factor can be dogmatically clung to as THE reason for Rome's fall. If anything is a common thread it could be the complacency of the Roman people. Rome of 476AD was not the Rome of Scipio, Caesar or Trajan: it had metamorphased into a a people more than willing to hand over the defense of the Empire to the very peoples who conquered it and Emperors who spent more time battling rivals and gorging the populace with "games" than securing the frontier. Yes both America and Rome are the great powers of their day, and yes there are the similarities expected in the American government and ancient Rome but do not forget the differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Give me a break, the both of you. This war is a drop in the bucket as far as our economy is concerned. Our economy is 14 TRILLION dollars, the war has cost a total of what? 250 billion? Oil? What oil.... You guys need to get a grip on reality. Terrorists don't listen to laws, they don't care about "Geneva conventions". They don't care. They wish you to A: Convert, or B: DIE. That's your choice, but there is a third choice. C: terrorize them with military power to such a point where A: and B: are no longer options for them. History is ripe with good intentioned people, that believed that understanding what the aggressor was doing and why they did it, was what was important, the name that comes to mind is Chamberlain. Same stuff, different century. You either meet force with GREATER force, or DIE. End of story. History shows this to be true, and it will ALWAYS be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DocHoliday Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 "We could go all day on a debate about the reasons for the fall of Rome; from stuff like too much lead to decadence, moral decline and lack of cohesion." I'm not sure about that. A lot of people in your country scream about lack of morals, how people turned away from God. How popular culture and consumerism are the mainstream.. etc.. There are differences of course both in terms of liberty, technology and information. And yes, terrorism is grave and modern problem, but it's not just Muslims. They are as Jaguar described them. But then you have other groups like ETA, IRA etc.. They have a different agenda and basically deals around their right to have independence and such. You can't put them all in the same bucket. I see terrorism as a warning sign that something is badly wrong in a society and although "peace through superior firepower" works, it's not the best option, coz it doesnt solve the problem it just tries to put it under the rug, suffocate it. I'm sure some parts of the world (like Korea, Iran, France, India) see Bush as another Hitler and those who stand by (Europe and most of the other world) and watch the events unfold are seen as Chamberlains of the day... so reality is an ellusive thing in this day and age. And truth is a commodity, just like oil. The fact of the matter is, the world just doesn't trust America to do the right thing. Simple as that. History will be the final judge as usual. Cheers, Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Europe felt that we weren't doing the right thing when Reagan destroyed the Soviet Union. Europe's idea of doing right and doing wrong is highly suspect as far as I am concerned. They like to live and let live so to speak, but they are actually cowards that would rather not deal with a problem until it gets to be so bad that literally millions of people die. The United States will NOT let that occur. When we did not confront the terrorists, they hit us and hit us and hit us, but ever since we went after them, there has not been one terrorist incident on US soil. Spain is now being blackmailed because they showed cowardice, France is about to get a little bit as well. Give in, give in, then the bully really jumps your butt. The terrorists will not get away with attacking us again, we will hunt them down and kill them, and we are, and will continue to do so, for our own security, if that helps Europes despite itself, so be it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DocHoliday Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 So what do you think about the situation with Iran? Back here this topic has died down a bit, with Siria and Lebanon going to the foreground. AFAIK Iran used to be friends with the US in the late 70s while the Shah was still in power. A lot of military hardware was sold, things like F-14s and the like. Then with the Islamic revolution the tables turned. I get the feeling a war with Iran would be a whole different ballpark, because we're not talking just AK-47s, RPGs, home made bombs, and the occasional AAA.. I think if US decided to make a move on Iran things would be a lot more even-balanced. Cheers, Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DocHoliday Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 BTW: About Reagan and Cold war. I just read an article on that and I thought I'd share it if you feel like reading a long-winded piece: http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/030305.html (Chapters Soviet Giant and Reagan Offensive) There are links to other articles there. Even though this site is leftist, even for my taste, I respect the style of writing. They do proper research, present arguments for and against and stick to the issue without underhanded bashing. Cheers, Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolferz Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 I don't think we have too much to worry about with Iran and what was provided to them under the Shah back in the 70's. That equipment is thirty + years old now? And we certainly haven't supplied them with repair parts or replacements since then. They might have some French Mirage aircraft. I wonder what one of those looks like on the receiving end of a chain gun. Plain and simple, There are alot of radical factions walking the planet and all of them are cowards. They act cowardly by killing the unsuspecting. The old knife in the back routine if you will. Because they don't have the balls to face their victims. I digress. It is all worthless conjecture and ego posturing by all concerned. All of us have a date with death. Does it really matter how, where, and when? I guess it does if you are terrified by the prospect that you will die, no matter how tightly you cling to the mortal coil. If you spend your life worrying about it, then your life becomes a wasted effort. A former working associate of mine kept an interesting parchment on the wall above his desk. quote: WHY WORRY [*]In life you only have two things to worry about [*]Either you are sick or you are well [*]If you are well [*]There is nothing to worry about [*]If you are sick [*]there are only two things to worry about [*]Either you will live or you will die [*]If you live [*]there is nothing to worry about [*]If you die [*]there are only two things to worry about [*]Either you will go to heaven or you will go to hell [*]If you go to heaven [*]there is nothing to worry about [*]If you go to hell [*]There is nothing to worry about either [*]Because you will be so busy shaking hands with friends [*]You won't have time to worry So why is everyone so worried about the death of people they don't even know? It's all about the Benjamins. If the terrorists killed people and we ignored it, they would go away. They're nothing more than a bunch of abused little boys looking for attention. The only difference between us and them is, They aren't afraid to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DocHoliday Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Hm.. Before Soback or Jaguar jumps in Terrorists are not just a bunch of abused kids.. they have an agenda and they will exist until the problem which created them exists.. If you ignore them, they will just try to get more attention until you stop ignoring them. Which is what I believe 9/11 was all about. The difference between a stable individual and a terrorist is, they have nothing to lose in life. but life. Generally, I think the problem is not that people are afraid to die. Because as you said, we all do. They are afraid to live. Because some people live, some don't.... Or rather are afraid of life... have a lack of knowledge, vision, social/friends support, constant troubles etc..... and blame others for that. On one hand, some people want to live a good life. This by definition means that sooner or later they will start living at the expense of other person's "wants to live a good" life. If you pull this to extremes, you get multinational corporations, paying cents for production of snickers to children in third-world nations.. you push people too far, they will have nothing to lose and they become terrorists. What we always forget is that Arab world as it is today, was defined by colonial powers in the 19/20th Century, possibly even before that. Iraq was actually artificially created by France and Britain to fill in the "gap" after the Ottoman Empire declined to oblivion. Iran though is ANCIENT. Far worse, most of Arab hatred towards the west dates back to the Crusades.. So in effect, Europeans should be victims of terror attacks, not US.. And Europe, in my naive opinion SHOULD have apologized for that ages ago. But to Arabs, you and I are all the same.. Just as Afganis and Libians and even Persians (Iranians aren't Arabs, mind you - they are just Muslim) are the same to us. Ignorance is bliss... Cheers, Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 judge, it was the arms race and the space race that brought down the USSR. Yes their system may have been flawed, but so was feudalism...and that one lasted for almost a thousand years. The arms/space race dramatically accelerated the fall of the USSR. Otherwise they'd still be there today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepFreeze Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 The world has beccome a place of global darwinism. There is no more shaking hands and being friends. We have all been set in our ways for hundreds of years and change isn't coming any time soon. And if it does ever come, it'll be too late to help any of us. In the mean time, we can't just sit here and take punches all day because we're afraid of hurting somebody's feelings. If they hit us, and we cower, they will be empowered by it, and that is the entire point behind terrorism. They're trying to be righteous, but in actuality they are bully side-kicks of the former Soviet Union in a world that left them behind long ago. They've had no purpose in their lives for 50 years and have only Islam to live for. However, those ideals can be perverted quite easily, and nothing is more dangerous than a man who believes god is on his side. So what do we do? We can just ignore it and pretend it's not happening. That didn't work. We can try blowing to them bits. That sort of worked for the time being. Now we're trying to win over their hearts and minds. This one NEVER works because it usually takes people more than a year or 2 to forget that we blew up their neighborhood and killed their whole family, but we always go back to that one when we run out of ideas. These people are undefeatable at the moment because they are fighting for something that is larger than themselves. They have a will that drives them on no matter what. We have to strike at that will. But where does it lie? What exactly is it that they're fighting for? Sure, we've all heard about the conflict between Israel and Palestine, but anyone with half a brain can see that it's regurgitated rhetoric to stir up the masses. Afterall, the Palestinians were the disowned bastard children of the Middle East until they needed an excuse to stir up trouble. The brains behind all of these terrorist organizations are working toward some higher goal, and until we find out what that is, we'll just have to rely on kicking ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 but.. kicking ass is good. When the dust settles, Bin Laden and his cronies will be burning in hell where this little white man with a funny mustache right under his nose will greet them with 'Ach! Zey keek'd jur az tooo ja?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolferz Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 quote:and nothing is more dangerous than a man who believes god is on his side.For all intensive purposes, one could describe the current President of the United States as one of these dangerous men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepFreeze Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Yes, but he's OUR dangerous man. And one does not mess with a dangerous man who has the most powerful military force in the world at his disposal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DocHoliday Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Well, but he's also dangerous to you, not just the bad guys... Because he doesn't work for the people but other interests, who just happen to OCCASIONALLY coincide with what the voters actually want. Jobs, prosperity and safety. Otherwise he'll just do his thing and you get practically the same result as Jaguar described with terrorists. Or what happened with Hitler and the likes of him. You give in and give in and they will just keep on taking liberty away from you and one day you might wake up in a country (and I severely exaggerate): - who has banned its constitution (I hear there are tendancies to CHANGE it), - your passport is revoked (because "you never went abroad anyway"), - they have reinstated a form of indentured servitude (called welfare-to-work programmes) and - its police force can kill you on site (in the interest of national security) if they suspect you may be having hostile thoughts (as with that kid in Kentucky). Possibly stick you in a labour camp, or better yet to the army as cannon fodder... Hopefully not, but that's the general direction things might go if the actions of people in charge are left unaccounted for. [ 03-11-2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: DocHoliday ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepFreeze Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 You know what, Doc? You're absolutely right. The thing is that it's inevitable no matter WHO is in charge. The American people are a bunch of sheepish cattle who believe and do anything that comes under the guise of patriotism. It was bound to happen sooner or later, 9/11 just set the process in motion. In the meantime, let's have some fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DocHoliday Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 I wouldn't go that far as to say they are ALL sheeple. There is a certain body of uneducated crowd that follow what the media says. But that's true for any country. In America it's just more pronounced and focused. But the political circles chose to abandon principles of democracy for some reason, possibly because it's easier to promote economic interests that way. The sad fact is, that in America there are so many poor and unemployed people one they THEY might become the biggest insurgient threat to US, because they'll have nothing to loose and a popular revolution will be the only thing left.. The politicians know that, so they try to bog them down with fear of outsiders (like Europeans, Arabs and the UN - who have no interest in US at all, other than wishing to be left alone by the US), hoping they forget who's the real enemy. Our people for example are on of the most xenophobic in Europe. It's logical, because all throughout our history we've been invaded by foreigners. Romans, Turks, Austro-Hungarians, later Italians, Germans and Hungarians, recently by Serbs... If we had a population equal to Germany or France, we'd probably be the scourge of Europe.. I don't want to get stuck with history. I believe one should learn lessons, forgive and forget. And move on. Not kill and forget and move on, learning nothing. That's why I am usually labelled as naive or detached from reality. So be it. But I'm not the only one and every day more and more people get sick of hard-line rhetorics, trying to pump up nationalism.... At the end of the day, we the people, create our own reality. Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now