When gas prices rise, should the oil industries profit margin rise as well?

[Soback]

Aperson, I can see that you haven't studied history much. Let me fill you in on some details on the falacy of a government run operations.

Here's a nice simple story.

The HEAVIEST electrical generators in the world, were produced in Russia. Here's why.

A factory where generators were build, had quotas to meet. Just like any bussiness, however, just like anything in communism, that factory was government run. The quotas were in weight, NOT quality, NOT even quantity, but just simple weight. So some corrupt official figured out, that if they slap on extra metal to a generator, make it twice as heavy, well then they only need to build half the ammount, and if they make it 10 times heavier, well then, they can work 5 days, and kick back the rest of the month. Guess what happened. ROFL, it's a true story. They started building generators, that had the weight of a truck. Quotas easily met. What a waste, and what corruption. Factory manager getting his private ranch for meeting and exceeding quotas, and some corrupt politician getting a nice gift, and a bonus too. Who was accountable. Well, you see, like anything in government, NOBODY. They DID fill the quota, so you can't blame them, and they DID produce generators, so you can't blame them either. ROFL.

WOULD THAT SAME EXAMPLE EVER HAPPEN IN A PRIVATE COMPANY. The answer is NO WAY, NEVER. If company A, puts out 1 generator weighing 10 tons, and company B puts out 10 generators weighin 1 ton. Which company would prosper and which would go out of bussiness.

Natural evolution, Aperson. It applies to capitalism, as much as anything else. That's why Europe will either change, or fail. That's why Canada will either change or fail. That's why US will either go back to it's roots, or exhaust it's wealth that was accumulated by Capitalism, but then, over time, people had so much that they started giving hand outs to Europe, Canada, Mexico, and the rest of the world, and if we continue on this path, we will either change, or again, FAIL.

Study some hitory, Aperson, especially the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, and the Russians. It will give you an interesting insight into the cycles of government, the cycles of economy, and the cycles of empires.

You will see, the people who on one side, are trying to save the country with their ideas, morals, stands, and you will then see the people who are trying to destroy a country with their ideas, morals, and stands, without even realizing it, because the never studied history, and WHY others before them failed, like Rome, or most recently Russia. They never learned the mistakes of others, and think that their ideas are the greatest thing since sliced bread, failing to LEARN that those VERY SAME ideas, morals, and stands are the same ones that destroyed prosperous countries from hundreds of years ago, to the ones as recent as last century.

[ 09-20-2005, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Soback ]

[Grizzle]

Don't fool yourself too much Soback. Private companies lie cheat and steal ALL the time. Quotas exist in most large companies and people will always find ways to meet them even if they have to cut corners or lie about it.

If only companies would stress quotas for quality it would be better. But wait that's a problem too because if they make their product too good, then it'll never need replacing or at the very least will need to be replaced far less often. They sell fewer product as a result. Sure they could just raise the price of the product but then people can't afford it...

You obviously think the US version of Capitalism is the best thing ever, well that may be the case today, but I guarantee you it won't be so forever. All great societies get crushed under their own weight, especially those that think they won't... period. What's the one thing all those fallen societies have in common? Arrogance about their superiority. That's the most important lesson history has to teach us.

[Soback]

All great societies get crushed by the cancer that starts growing within.

Like I said. Study history. Rome, Egypt, Greeks, Russia. When you learn their political, economical systems, and how they evolved over centuries, you might learn to draw a paralel and liken it to the way things are today. People who don't know history, repeat it's mistakes. After Rome fell, humanity fell into centuries of darkness. Rome was worn down and looted from within first, that's what allowed the barbarians who failed for decades to even approach the walls of the empire, to finally plunder Rome completly. So is our society today, plundering what was once the great United States, country that MADE it's own wealth, now is being looted by the bums/scum from within, and the barbarians are just biding their time, when US will be so weak that it won't be able to protect itself.

PS. Also like I said. A private company will ALWAYS run things MORE effeciently, and with less corruption that government. It will also invent things, because there's PROFIT in invention. The latest example to back up my statment. The private space flight. Took less time, took MUCH less money, THAT DIDN'T COME FROM THE TAXPAYERS POCKETS, and is much MORE reliable. Don't you see the simple fact that private companies CAN NOT afford to waste money, therefore they strive to lessen waste, can't you also see that they can not afford corruption, by the same token stiving to curb it too.

As far as your statement about how they don't strive for quality goes, here's something to DEBASE that argument completly, would you buy a Honda for $17,000 or would you buy a Ford for $15,000? Would you buy made in China, or would you buy made in Japan?

[Grizzle]

we don't entirely disagree on these topics. However, isn't the looting from bums and scum as you put it, just a side effect of capitalism? When you stress wealth, profit and power, people will do whatever they can to achieve it and are more likely to violate certain ethics and principals to attain it. It's the same as "crushing under their own weight" only in more descriptive terms.

The problem lies with certain PEOPLE, not with the country or under which political system they live and operate.

The private space flight is an excellent example of what we are capable of, but also keep in mind there was a reward at the end and that these guys did it more for the sheer enjoyment and prestige than as a profit making venture. When you add profit to the picture it changes everything.

I like to buy quality products and don't mind spending more for them. My point was that the technology exists to produce even better quality but they don't do it because it hurts the bottom line and would raise the price to a point where people couldn't afford it in the first place. It's a widely known production factor called planned obsolescence.

[Aperson]

quote:

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Originally posted by Soback:

ROFL, Are you actually serious? Government financing exploration for oil, drilling, and developing? ROFL. It would be more efficient and would cut down on waste and corruption?

---

Sorry for not being clear.

I meant the goverment should fund the studies on whether or not said fly, caribou etc. will be affected by the drilling or not. Teh oil company would be responsible for the exploration, drilling and devolpment of the well(s). This would cut down on corruption and biased of the studies as there have been other studies down showing that people employed by a business are four times (or somewhere around there) as likely to have a study favourable to that buisness as someone who is independent.

quote:

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Originally posted by Soback:

As far as your statement about how they don't strive for quality goes, here's something to DEBASE that argument completly, would you buy a Honda for $17,000 or would you buy a Ford for $15,000? Would you buy made in China, or would you buy made in Japan?

---

Not really, unless you want us to assume that each item has the exact same properities except for the manufacturer, country of origin and/or price. In any event, people do buy things based on brand names....

Jaguar:

I doubt that as it dosn't make sence to me on how a country that imports more then it exports (when it comes to gas, oil and electricty for example) would be less affected then the entire world which has an equal import-export amount (duh). In any event I don't think that experiment would be pleasent for anyone.

[Matchoo]

quote:

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Originally posted by Aperson:

I doubt that as it dosn't make sence to me on how a country that imports more then it exports (when it comes to gas, oil and electricty for example) would be less affected then the entire world which has an equal import-export amount (duh).

---

I think Jaguar's point is that a large majority of our imports (cars, electronics, clothing, etc.) are luxuries, where as in those countries that we are buying them from they are their livelihood. If we cut off all imports, the cost of goods may go up here and we won't be able to get that 50" plasma screen t.v. that we've been eyeballing, but across the ocean in Japan, 500 workers from the ACME plasma t.v. company are going to lose their jobs because there is no longer the demand for their product that there used to be.

[Grizzle]

Matchoo and Jag, That's true in theory but it will never happen.

If we cut off imports and pull our production shops and outsourcing from all other countries, many, many major US corps would go bankrupt in a heartbeat. It's a two way street and at this point with the World economy the way it is it's just not feasible. Corporations thrive on exploitation and minimizing costs and you would effectively be cutting them off at the knees and cripple our economy in the process.

Face it, isolationism is NOT the answer.

[Matchoo]

I wasn't suggesting that we could or should cut ourselves off from the world (except maybe the U.N. ). I was just explaining what my understanding of Jaguar's post was.

[Grizzle]

quote:

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Originally posted by Matchoo:

I wasn't suggesting that we could or should cut ourselves off from the world (except maybe the U.N. ). I was just explaining what my understanding of Jaguar's post was.

---

LOL..my apologies then.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Grizzle:

Matchoo and Jag, That's true in theory but it will never happen.

If we cut off imports and pull our production shops and outsourcing from all other countries, many, many major US corps would go bankrupt in a heartbeat. It's a two way street and at this point with the World economy the way it is it's just not feasible. Corporations thrive on exploitation and minimizing costs and you would effectively be cutting them off at the knees and cripple our economy in the process.

Face it, isolationism is NOT the answer.

---

No, I never said that isolationism was the answer, I was just making an example of what would happen if we ever did it.

No, we have a global economy now, no matter how much I dislike it.

[Grizzle]

It just isn't right...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051026/bs_nm/...lips_earns_dc_4

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/25/D8DF1DM80.html

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Grizzle:

It just isn't right...

---

Why isn't it right?

It doesn't actually cost them more to pull oil out of the ground, it's just worth more.

If it were gold, would you say the same thing? What about Platinum, or Corn for that matter.

It costs the same to produce, it just happens to be worth more right now.

That is what happens in a capitalistic society.

If a products value goes up, but it costs the same to produce, your profits go up.

I think it's GREAT, it proves that the system is still working....

[LostInSpace]

I think it's high time that the oil workers demand a hefty pay raise for all the work they do. You don't hear too much about that.

[Guest $iLk]

If someone buys a tank of gas for a certain price - sells only 1/4 of it, then jacks up the price to the max he can when he gets his next shipment - I believe he is overcharging for 3/4 of his gas.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by $iLk:

If someone buys a tank of gas for a certain price - sells only 1/4 of it, then jacks up the price to the max he can when he gets his next shipment - I believe he is overcharging for 3/4 of his gas.

---

NO, he is getting ready to pay for his next shipment of gas. That next tank is going to be expensive, and if he does not prepare for it by charging more for the initial cheaper tank, then he will lose his butt on the next tank.

THis is a capitalist society, ANY merchant should be able to charge what the people are willing to pay, if you don't want to pay, then DON'T drive your car.

[Guest $iLk]

Jag - un-regulated Capitalism leads to monopolization. When we have a government that refuses to look into alternate fuels because the President has oil-buddies - and the price of gas is fixed by a few big corps, there is no longer a free market.

It's a national security issue - we can't keep relying on the Middle East.

And with profits of 80% increases they are doing a bit more than covering the costs of the next tank Jag.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by $iLk:

Jag - un-regulated Capitalism leads to monopolization. When we have a government that refuses to look into alternate fuels because the President has oil-buddies - and the price of gas is fixed by a few big corps, there is no longer a free market.

It's a national security issue - we can't keep relying on the Middle East.

And with profits of 80% increases they are doing a bit more than covering the costs of the next tank Jag.

---

Monopoloes are IMPOSSIBLE in this country, business is too regulated, if an oil company wants to lower it's price because it wants to help the greater good, GREAT, but it should be their choice.

This is a capitalist society, CHARGE all that the market will bear!!

[John Prezioso]

C'mon Silk - let's be honest. Bush is not the only president to ignore alternate forms of energy. Was Reagan in oil? What about Carter? Clinton? Bush was not the only one.

Oh and this is just perfect, given the thread title:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,173683,00.html

[John Prezioso]

Yep, we did. So why are YOU so interested, HMMMMMM?

You are extraordinarily cynical, Nomad. Your implication is that one is automatically a greedy crook if ANYTHING they do in any way benefits an industry one is involved with. You are welcome to your opinion, but due to your vast suspicion and negative assumption (for Republican's anyway... your hero Bill Clinton never gets a mention in anything but reverence. Funny, that...), I don't consider your view objective at all.

[Grizzle]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

quote:

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Originally posted by Grizzle:

It just isn't right...

---

Why isn't it right?

It doesn't actually cost them more to pull oil out of the ground, it's just worth more.

If it were gold, would you say the same thing? What about Platinum, or Corn for that matter.

It costs the same to produce, it just happens to be worth more right now.

That is what happens in a capitalistic society.

If a products value goes up, but it costs the same to produce, your profits go up.

I think it's GREAT, it proves that the system is still working....

---

Well, the increase in gas prices should be proportionate to the increase in the cost of a barrel of oil. Outrageous profits such as this indicate they artificially increased the cost beyond the increase in the price of a barrel of oil. As you said, it doesn't cost them more to refine it, but somewhere along the line the end prices got inflated.

Aside from that, gasoline prices directly affect other areas of the economy too. Any company that relies on fuel either for transportation or delivery has to make up the difference somehow and it's usually passed on to the consumer. Gasoline prices have a serious domino effect and to see these companies have a profit increase of 84% is highway robbery.

Yeah it's capitalism in all it's glory and we've all just been capitalized.

[John Prezioso]

Nice sidestep of the original point, my friend.

You are a mirror image of biased and suspicious liberals of this country. What do you care if he doesn't want to divulge the content of his private meeting with the enrergy corporations? I don't really care.

[Soback]

Posted by Grizzle:

"Well, the increase in gas prices should be proportionate to the increase in the cost of a barrel of oil. Outrageous profits such as this indicate they artificially increased the cost beyond the increase in the price of a barrel of oil. As you said, it doesn't cost them more to refine it, but somewhere along the line the end prices got inflated."

---You know where things work that way Grizzle? In socialism. You think people don't get the short end of the stick? Wrong, they do BIG time, while the heads of factories sell off what belongs to the people and POCKET the revenue for themselfs, while blaming the shortage on stale air.

In Capitalism, you are free to charge as much as you want, what you sell, depends if you find someone who wants to pay the price. Don't like gasoline prices? Don't buy it. Go ride the bus. Quit complaining about a free society. You like socialism, Europe is the place for you, I'm sure Nomad would help you out and tide you over till the paperwork for life time government help gets finalized, doh, I forgot, their economy is so slumped and under the table that they don't accept any immigration, and you can't get benefits if you are an illegal, hope US worked that way.

But in either case. Like Jag said, we live in CAPITALISM, absolutly nothing wrong with that, NOT A THING, I mean you have read this thread, and understand how market works, and how that money that companies make gets re-invested, and creates more money, right? Instead of complaining how 'they' make the money, go buy some Chevron stock, www.ameritrade.com freedom is great, free to take initiative and make some money for yourself, or free to sit on your butt and waste time and money replying to my post with yet another complaint, lol. Don't like it, don't pay the price, it's that easy. As much as I hate paying $2.90 a gallon, I would rather live in this country any day, than live in Russia where you had to wait 3 HOURS in line to buy fuel (if you could find any), and when you did, it would cost you a quarter of your paycheck, welcome to price regulation and socialism, from Russia with love. ROFL, no wonder Europes gas is $5 bucks a gallon, it just hit me how much EU is like Russia, the signs are there, even in fuel prices.

Oh, and Nomad, what happens between our vice president and his bussiness associates, is his bussiness, when it happens on his time. Not ours, and surely NOT yours. He is not chained to his desk and lives in a free country, you are forgeting, it's not EU we are living in here, it's US.

[John Prezioso]

quote:

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Or maybe in your innocence you believe that they discussed football and later played backgammon ?

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That's just funny. Now I'm "innocent". Don't you mean gullible? Because I am not immediately suspicious of something sinister every time a meeting takes place and am not made privy to everything that was discussed or decided? Try this one on for size - I DON'T CARE! I am not on the government "need to know" list, I can assure you.

You are awfully fond of pointing out how much energy we( the U.S.) as a nation consume. Is this a sore spot with you or something?

There's a fine line between healthy skepticism and paranoia - are you sure you haven't passed it?

[Aperson]

Soback:

I'd recommend Canada as there's like no differance between the U.S.' (or lack there of) culture and Canada's (or lack there of) culture.

Also, as long as you accept that Captilism isn't perfect and that Socilism is not completly bad I have no problem with your opinion

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Aperson:

Soback:

I'd recommend Canada as there's like no differance between the U.S.' (or lack there of) culture and Canada's (or lack there of) culture.

Also, as long as you accept that Captilism isn't perfect and that Socilism is not completly bad I have no problem with your opinion

---

Pardon me, then you are going to have a problem with bth Soback and myself.

Socialism in ANY form is parasitic, and will slowly eat away at ANY society it infects.

ANY type of socialism, collectism etc, is BAD...

Capitalism is the BEST system EVER created, because it feeds the human nature of the human beast, the harder you work, the MORE you make, the more you make, the more you want, etc, etc.

In a capitalist society, if you have the drive, you can create anything, make anything, and get as rich as you want, IF YOU HAVE THE DRIVE.

In socialism, why? They are just going to take it from you....

I for one am glad that you live in Canada, please stay there....