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Islam is definitely a religion of peace and tolerance except....


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quote:

It is foolish to believe that ANY of these countries is ready for a genuine democracy. Cultures evolve at the pace of their own internal clock, and frankly, the Middle-East shows quite some similarities with the religious obscurantism that reigned through Europe from the fall of constantinople up to the 18th century.


Exactly. Besides, from the weak signals that are slowly becoming visible, this islamic

fundamendalism(or call it whatever you like) is becoming a way to resist the western cultural and economic imperialism. It is very obvious, no matter what religion or ideology you represent, that when your national(and scarce) resources are being exploited by foreign nations, you'd try to resist, no matter what.

I see kind of Lockian(see Locke, John; two treatises of civil goverment) thinking in modern american(read U.S) view towards cultures it defines "lower". For those unfamiliar with Locke: He discriminates the insurgency of lower culture towards higher(supposed) culture. In Locke's views, they(rebelling lower culture) could even put into slavery because they don't "understand" their best.

Another great problem is that one of relativism. Can we say for sure that western way of life(with capitalism) is something that they want? Is it something that they value?

We have to remember that there were times when arab culture was way beyond of European correspondent. Their science were far beyond of ours(europe). I.E in medical sciences and astronomy.

Without arabs, our knowledge of Socrates, Plato and Aristoteles would probably be lost. It were arabs whom preserved those writings, while europeans were burning those in the name of faith. Just look at them now! Mostly rotten societies, ruled by greedy opportunists who knows how to please west. And why is this? It is because Italy(Rome or Vatican), Britain and France have been practising Machiavellian philosophy on that region ever since 1st crusade, destroyed their flourisihing cultures, drew border zones again, feeding sectarian quarrels, etc etc. All that UK and USA(amongst some other nations) are doing there right now, is to trying to preserve their influence. To preserve their "right" to resources. Democracy is just the sugar covering the cake of shit.

It has all been just conflict of semiglobal cultures where islam is losing. In the light of preceeding paragraphs, how could one even expect the religion that was born somewhere around 500 AD be peaceful, keeping in mind that first crusade started shortly after 1000 ad? The oppression(although varying in level of seriousness) has continued ever since.

quote:

As long our societies are so dependent on their oil, our industry and our politicians will look the other way each time an event doesen't cause public outrage. Alternative energy solutions are needed if we want to interact with culturally unfriendly cultures without being the victims of the requirements of our lifestyle.


According to latest scientific proof, we don't have oil problem at all after few decades, but we have a lot of other problems though...

-v

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You are talking like the western world is breaking into the middle east and taking their resources (oil) by force.

---"...It is very obvious, no matter what religion or ideology you represent, that when your national(and scarce) resources are being exploited by foreign nations, you'd try to resist, no matter what...."

So, lets correct that. The oil is being BOUGHT from them. That means it's an exchange where value is given for value. With that money, they build/maintain their infrastructures, militaries, and keep their economies clicking. Thier economies depend on oil sales. So we are not some bad guys exploiting their national resources. Far from it. We are the good guys, buying it from them, all the while giving them technology to improve their oil industry. You do know that the western society BUILD the oil pumping stations and refineries in the middle east, FOR THEM.

And second...

---"It has all been just conflict of semiglobal cultures where islam is losing. .....The oppression(although varying in level of seriousness) has continued ever since." + previous paragraph.

If you were familiar with history, you would know that this portrayal of Islam as some dissadvantaged religion that is being discriminated against is complete BS. Here's a short version of events from Russias point of view.

We already know that Islam was build around the raid and conquer philospphy, as is portrayed by the prophet Mohammed when after a multitude of raids that he himself led, he said that god has allowed them to live through those raids because he APPROVES of this. That included the ransacking and conquiering of cities in the middle east. When Islam eventually extended up to the Russias southern border, they brought their way of conquest and raiding with them. In the heart of Islamic nation, it might have been Socrates and Aristotle, in the outluying territorires it was the primal "we ransack and conquer you" Islam.

Anyway, after continued conflicts, Russia had enough. The choice wasn't even of just holding them back at the border, as their raiding runs were getting out of hand. The choice was a full military move down into Islamic south, to conquier and pacify them. It worked, as it put a buffer border between old Russia and raiding Islamic nations. Now if there was any conflicts, they were fought out in the conquered southern territory.

There's a reason that Crusades started AFTER 1000 AD. The Crusades were an answer to constant Islamic invasions and raids.

Islam is the only religion in the world where successfull violence is justified and encouraged by sayings that if it's successfull then God approves of it. Who do you think there is murder happening in the name of Islam, to this very day. Name the last time a Christian has sacrificed a sheep in the name of god, let alone a human.

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quote:

You are talking like the western world is breaking into the middle east and taking their resources (oil) by force.

So, lets correct that. The oil is being BOUGHT from them.


Yes, but they are not getting decent price of it. And the money from the oil isn't going to the people. There are ofcourse nice roads built in main cities of some arab states, but how many of the people can afford a car? Ofcourse one might say that it isn't our problem. But I say its beginning to be, as the hatred towards west is on the rise. Besides, I'm not talking only about oil, I'm also talking about potential labour amongst other resrources. What are the labour costs for a entreprise working in middle-east and one that is working on norweigian sea? Howcome norwegians are a lot more richer than arabs? I think it's because society in Norway is working well compared to those in middle-east. Sectarian fights there are being constantly fed by foreign goverments in middle-east. It's the old "divide and rule"-philosophy, but altered on the form of "divide and profit". Old Machiavellian stuff.

What comes to my knowledge of history, I'm not good at it, tho I know that europe(and US later on) have been exploiting muslims in middle-east ever since from 1700 when the european imperialism started effectively. You seem to be intentionally avoiding this in your address.

quote:

There's a reason that Crusades started AFTER 1000 AD. The Crusades were an answer to constant Islamic invasions and raids.


Crusades were not response to islamic threat rather than to spread Christianity and to secure holy city of Jerusalem, which obviousley were smokescreens for economical exploitation(just the same type of riding that you say muslims were doing). Offcourse, in these debates, it seems that one can choose the interpretation of his liking.

-v

[ 03-25-2006, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Voli0 ]

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They are not getting a fair price for it? By whos opinion? It doesn't even matter whos opinion. ROFL. Here's what you do. Open up Yahoo.com and type in "How economy works" "How trade works" "Economic forces" "Production vs. Demand" "Supply vs. Demand" "Price vs. Demand", then sit down and have a read. It is ludicrous that you are even trying to back up your opinion of "they are hostile because their natural resources are being taken away". First we have concluded that they are NOT being taken away, NOW you are trying a second approach that we don't give them a fair price for it.

Have you ever traded anything as a kid? You know, given one thing for another. The value of things is in the eye of the beholder. Your toy soldier might cost a buck, while my shiny rock cost nothing. If you however want/like my shiny rock enough, you will be willing to give away your little soldier toy to get it. Your friends might think that the trade is unfair and you didn't get enough for it, but guess what, their opinions are MEANINGLESS. I don't want to help you beyong this tiny introduction into economic trades, the rest is up to you to learn.

Second. You mentioned something about "the money not going to the people". Here's the deal about that. Their government is NOT SOCIALISTIC. Now that we understand that, lets also make clear that if US with it's Republican government was the majority oil exporter, the money from that wouldn't be going to the people either. It's called BUSINESS and CAPITALISM. Things that are also easily looked up by using yahoo or google. The fact that they can't afford a car, is the least of our concerns. People in third world countries can't affod shoes. They should take that up with their governments and institute/develop a Capitalistic society. Then they will be able to afford as much as they are willing to put in. If they put in just raw repetitive labor, then thats the value they get back, if they put in their developed skills, their knowledge then they will obviously get back much more. The fact that a person who does not posses any desired knowledge or skill can't afford a car is NOT surprising nor is it something that we should be pointing at as wrongfull. A person WITH knowledge and skill being forced to give up his earnings to pay for the transportation of the one without, however, IS wrongfull.

So, now that we established that Middle East is NOT a socialistic society, and therefore we shouldn't be surprised that the money is NOT going to the people, and now that we have explained away as to why they can't afford a car, lets move on towards hatred of the west.

Here's the deal about that. Their hatred of the west is not something we should bow our heads to and appologize. If I haven't robbed you, haven't hurt you, and haven't forced you, your like or disslike of me is not my problem. If you however start acting out on your disslike by burning down my buildings, or hurting me in some way, the last thing I would do is try to appeaze you by subjugating myself with appoligies and questions as to why you hate me. Same goes for the middle east. Their populations hate of the western societies is NOT due to our fault, nor should we be making any excuses. They are due to the people in their own government and religious establishments. The same ones who subjugate and derive power from their own population. One of the ways of staying in power is keeping people ignorant of their own potential and worth, the other way is to murder the ones who know their own potential and worth, the third one is to teach them that someone else, not themselfs are responsible for all the wrongs in their lives. If a looter breaks into my house and robs me. I am going to blame myself first for not making it harder to break in, and then I am going to blame myself again, for not killing him. I am NOT going to blame the police department for not being there to catch him. That's what those who are in Middle eastern government and prominent figures in Islam are doing. They tell people that it's not their fault they have no electricity, it's not their fault they have no medical care, it's not their fault they have no cars. They keep them ignorant that to have electricity they need to WORK at it, that to have medical care they need to educate their men AND women, that to have cars they need to build them. And to make ALL that possible, they need to overthrow their governments AND shed their religious shackles. So, how is any of that the wests fault?

And last. As to your eluding to the difference in labor pay. It's all covered in the first two paragraphs. It's the same way that China can make trinkets and sell them in US cheaply. A factory worker in US, making plastic widgets would require at least $30,000 dollars a year to make ends meet. Which means that plastic widget that he made would have to sell for $4.99. The same worker in China would require a $10,000 a year salary to enjoy an equivalent standard of living as the same worker, performing the same labor in US would. A widget HE made would have to sell for $1.49. Does that make sence to you now why their labor is cheaper? ROFL. If they were getting paid the same as a Norweigian worker did, they would have 3 story homes and two car garages, all on the pay of a Norweigian burger flipper.

Fourth. Secterian fights are NOT being fed by foreign governments any more than they are being fed internally. Let me clarify that even more. Those same secterian fights have been going on for thousands of years. Their profet Muhammad has led his armies in secterian fights. So stop blaming the world, anything and everything for the problems that they themselfs have developed. It's like saying that a dispute between two cities is a fault of the third one.

As far as Christian crusades go, and you saying that they weren't in response to Muslim invasions but rather a smokescreen to economic expansion, it leaves one baffled as to what kind mazes and dead ends of convoluted fictitious "history" you had to read to conjure that up.

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/crusades.stm

"Since the time of Constantine, Christians had gone on pilgrimages to the Holy Land. Even though Moslems had ruled Jerusalem since 638, Christians were still allowed to visit the city. By the 11th century, however, the situation had changed. Just as the number and frequency of pilgrimages to Jerusalem was at new peaks, the Seljuk Turks took over control of Jerusalem and prevented pilgrimages."

Also, important to note. The actions of the religious followers in those days were attrocious. ALL religions. TODAY, however, there none but ONE religion that still calls it's followers to holy expditions, genocide, conquests, pillages and murders. Is that an interpretation to my liking, or do would you like a link to that?

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I'd like to emphasize that you have concluded that their resources aren't being exploited. I am still standing my ground on what I've said. I am not trying anything as you'd like to imagine. Or did I say "taking away" somewhere? Exploitation and not paying enough are kinda the same.

quote:

Fourth. Secterian fights are NOT being fed by foreign governments any more than they are being fed internally.


So why to write huge pile of BS just to agree what I have said? I never said that sectarianity didn't exists already. How to feed them if they don't exist?

quote:

As far as Christian crusades go, and you saying that they weren't in response to Muslim invasions but rather a smokescreen to economic expansion, it leaves one baffled as to what kind mazes and dead ends of convoluted fictitious "history" you had to read to conjure that up.


First, please don't alter what I've said. I never said expansion, I said exploitation - again. Second, fictitious history you say? Then you link a page which has information based on some religious order of christian methodists? Get a grip dude, really. I prefer even wikipedia to be more reliable source, which as a matter of fact tell us: this.

Please, don't make yourself look any more ridiculous as you already are, or this is going to end up just like issue where you stated that global warming had nothing to do with man made pollution.

This is the last reply I gonna give you unless you don't post something constructive instead of constant spamming with bizarre ideas that comes who knows where.

-v

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Volio,

YOU need to get educated...

This naive crap you are flinging around is ridiculous to say the least.

Oh, and BTW, Soback is, as usual correct, and you, by arguing with him, are WRONG.

ALSO, global warming is NOT caused by manmade pollution, it wasn't 129,000 years ago, the end of the last major Ice Age, and it isn't now.

Climatologists haven't a clue what all the factors are that create Global Warming, so to say that a little CO2 in the atmosphere, causes global warming is insane, especially when CO2 has been FAR higher in the past, and had NO effects on the global climate.

Again, your naivate' is INSANE, you need a better education, or quit listening to propagandist BS, or perhaps BOTH....

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Volio, here's the thing. When you state something, back it up.

I told you why Middle eastern countries are not being exploited by oil bought "cheaply". I have given you clues as to where to look for information on how economy works. How production, supply and demand tie into the price. Here's an example. Diamonds. If you were to judge by their production output, they would be a dime a dozen. Why are they so expenise. Two reasons. First one is ammount of skillfull labor that is put into processing rough diamond into a shiny one an end customer would buy. Second, SUPPLY. Debeers controls the supply. They have HUGE underground wearhouses filled with diamonds that they either withhold or release based on the market saturation and conditions. Thus effectively controlling the price.

So, how about you think, and draw a paralel between the way Debeers handles the diamond market, and how OPEC handles the oil market.

Now, since I am all for debating intelligently, with facts. Why don't you go ahead, "...stand your ground..." and back up your claims that the Middle eastern countires are being exploited and we don't pay them enough for oil. Go right ahead, explain away.

We'll take it one thing at a time. So after we are done with this. We'll come back to:

1. "Sectarian fights there are being constantly fed by foreign goverments in middle-east.It's the old "divide and rule"-philosophy, "

2."Crusades... a smoke screen for economic exploitation" I am still laughing at that one.

3. Middle eastern labor exploitation. "I'm also talking about potential labour amongst other resrources. " Although after we get done with oil exploitation, we probably will not need to come back to this one, but then maybe because of this statement "Howcome norwegians are a lot more richer than arabs?" we will.

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Also, let me make a little correction. Instead of Debeers "controlling" the price, I should have said "influences" the price. As it does not matter what you want to sell the product for, it matters only the maximum an end buyer is willing to pay for it.

A customer can not be forced into buying something for the price he is not willing to pay. Just like one can not be forced to sell something, for the price he is not willing to accept. Just by this very statement, I have summed up all I the examples I have been giving you.

The ONLY time a twisted economy of "selling" at a constant loss and "producing/buying" at a constant loss has been seen, is in SOCIALIST/COMMUNIST countries. That's one of the biggest reasons those countries have collapsed, for NOTHING can function at a constant loss.

And since the oil exporting countries are FAR from strugling for money, or having defecits in their economies. It's factual PROOF that we are buying oil for a fair price, that there's no exploitation. The price they are willing to part with it, and the price we are willing to pay.

PS. Now we don't need to be coming back to the debate about "labor exploitatoin". The wages are a compromise between what the worker is willing to work for, and the employer willing to pay. The only time you have labor exploitation is when there's forced slavery.

[ 03-25-2006, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Soback ]

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Soback, you are correct. In principle, one cannot be forced to sell something on lower price than he wants to, especially when there isn't many alternative suppliers around to fill that demand. Of course competition sometimes drives prices lower than production can sustain, but it will quickly results to collapse of those who are willing to sell under profit marginal. I think thats only "economic evolution".

However, in my opinion problem in middle-east is more complex. Of course, as it is hard to say anything about true relationships behind these systems as they often are being covered up, and yet claim that the information acquired is still consistent according to classical defination of knowledge.

I'm not expert on economy, in fact I am pretty poor at it, I have never read theory of marketing economy for example(have you?). Although I know that economy works in certain ways, and in theory it should benefit(in a short run) everyone involved. However, this is only valid when context of the system is consistent and working.

But the obvious reason for gaining from internal disorder of some arab nations would be that they need quick cash to keep fighting with each other. So those controlling the supply - in my view - are motivated to sell it far worse price what it would be if the coutry would be internally undivided. Norway and other countries that are capable working towards same goal are perfect examples of this.

There is at least one examble how secterian fights are being fed:BBC article.

What comes to the crusades, maybe you're right there. It wasn't only for economical explotation although it occured, or would you think they went there and came back without looting a bit? Those crusades were not cheap to organize and I highly doubt that those kings that were involved, went there purely because of faith.

Hi Jag, this thread wasn't on climate change. Although you're being just as intelligent as usual.

-v

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quote:

Originally posted by Voli0:

Hi Jag, this thread wasn't on climate change. Although you're being just as intelligent as usual.

-v

And you being just as clueless as usual...

Ah well, what should I expect?

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quote:

And you being just as clueless as usual...


Of course I am. It's difficult to compile a bigger picture from pieces of information. But why to bother when we have Jag who knows how things really are?

Since you are so clever, why don't you state your opinion(which is also the truth, I suppose) on the issue at hand, instead of trolling the thread?

-v

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quote:

Originally posted by Voli0:

quote:

And you being just as clueless as usual...


Of course I am. It's difficult to compile a bigger picture from pieces of information. But why to bother when we have Jag who knows how things really are?

Since you are so clever, why don't you state your opinion(which is also the truth, I suppose) on the issue at hand, instead of trolling the thread?

-v


You attacked Sobak on a specific subject, I chose to respond.

Believing that global warming is caused by man, has to be one of the silliest things that a lot of people fall for, hook line and sinker, they don't bother to research it themselves, and therefore get suckered.

You attacked, I responsed.

THe subject at hand, I do not need to respond to, Soback does quite well all by himself, especially against you...LOL

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quote:

You attacked Sobak on a specific subject, I chose to respond.

Believing that global warming is caused by man, has to be one of the silliest things that a lot of people fall for, hook line and sinker, they don't bother to research it themselves, and therefore get suckered.

You attacked, I responsed.

THe subject at hand, I do not need to respond to, Soback does quite well all by himself, especially against you...LOL


Thats kinda contradictory when you say that Soback is doing well against me and yet you need to come trolling.

Sorry, this whole discussion is losing it's meaning. You've done well. Congrats.

-v

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The OP is one of the prime reasons Americans aren't too happy about our blood and treasure being poured down a black hole to prop up regimes which tolerate this.

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Guest Remo Williams

quote:

Originally posted by Voli0:

quote:

You attacked Sobak on a specific subject, I chose to respond.

Believing that global warming is caused by man, has to be one of the silliest things that a lot of people fall for, hook line and sinker, they don't bother to research it themselves, and therefore get suckered.

You attacked, I responsed.

THe subject at hand, I do not need to respond to, Soback does quite well all by himself, especially against you...LOL


Thats kinda contradictory when you say that Soback is doing well against me and yet you need to come trolling.

Sorry, this whole discussion is losing it's meaning. You've done well. Congrats.

-v


No one is trolling this topic so stop the insinuations and you guys get back on topic.

Thanks

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If your going to get agitated then don't post

If you post, you run the mistake of saying something that'll get you into serious trouble with the admins, it's always better to be safe than sorry ;-)

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