Talk about provocation..

[Supreme Cmdr]

I guess they won't be pulling that stunt again.

http://www.relic.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003032.html

[Adam Thomas]

Its amazing how long they can rant without really saying anything.

------------------

Cmdr. A.R. Thomas

Spectre Fleet

Spectre StarStation

ICV-Victorinox

"A small mind is easily filled with faith"

ICQ: 33699963

[Guest]

Hmm... free speech gone too far

Amazing thing is that those folks play a script based game with no replay value besides MP (which gets boring after a while... nothing survives THE kamikaze attack of 80 fighters).

Let BCM and BCOnline be released, then the gaming community decide. Until then, all that is just a waste of words.

[Guest Abomonog]

Wanna Bet? I'm only the first of the Homeworld folk taking the argument here. But I am not here to flame but just to put up a reply to his post that I know he will read. But that is my thread.

[Guest Remo Williams]

What a bunch of losers. I,m sure they will turn to a real title as soon as they get out of elementary school(homeworld)and want to play with the big boys. Although most of them still have to pull out the old systems manual just to turn on there PC. So it will be awhile before they can comprehend the basics of BC3K!

BC3K RULES!! the rest are fools!

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Cmdr. Remo Williams

GCV-Lexington

Prime Fleet

Gamma Wing

1st Squadron, (The Guarddogs)

[Guest cynically_deranged]

BOO! Muahahah!

yes, I am one of the evil Relic Bordizens whom you seem to deem a "looser".

But hay, Im not here to wreak havoc, altho if Sno ever shows up, HE'll make a comotion.

Id like to say a few things in defence of HW.

For one, while I realize that your entitled to you opinion about what constitutes a "real" title and what constitutes "elementary school", I feel youre being a little shortsighted in this respect. HW has a lot of strengths.

1> It has a depth of tactics and strategy which simple DOES NOT EXSIST in any other RTS which uses the "harvest/build/destroy" formula. The ships have multiple weapons with multiple arcs of fire. formations play a huge part in viable tactics. Units are weaker on the sides and in the back, making flanking manuvers useful. AND you can actually use the 3rd dimension. Everything has a counter, and what few loopholes the wankers could find to make an "unbeatable" strat have been patched away by Relics rather good customer support.

2> True, the SP element of the game is kind of weak, but it IS there, and it is decent (IMO). besides, no games single player can match multi-player, cuz AI's suck no mater what game it is. Even UT bots, while really good, arent like playing a person. Thats the future of gaming.

3> And the graphics are awe inspiring. Its like watching starwars, only you get to direct the battles.

4> Sure it has its rough edges, but for Relics first go, I am amazed, and I feel that HW has won enough awards to show the even the most jaded of gamers (reviewers) liked it to. It DID revolutionize RTS games. Theres already a slew of knockoffs in the works that are jumping on the 3d RTS wagon, which RELIC id driving. So cut it some slack, cuz for what it is, its the best.

On the other hand, I think my felow Relic Posters may be reacting unfairly because of what they consider an attack by Smart against their favorite game. I'd say its pretty stupid to call HW a failure in any sense of the word considereing all the facts, but I wont get into that, it was covered on the relic boards.

But you gotta understand, a lot of us have never even heard of BC3K, and most of the ones who have, like me, apparently only had dealings with the origonal release. I bought that steaming pile in the 10 bux or less bin at Software Ect cuz I thought it might be cool, but even the most die hard BC3K fan should admit that the oringonal release wasa crap. I never even got to find out if the game was any good, cuz I couldnt make it DO anything.

but. It IS a really good idea. Its also an idea which Im willing to give a second chance. When BCM comes out, assuming it suports something other than 3Dfx, I'll give it a try and hold my opinions about that to myself.

But I have to say I resent people implying that HW players arent inteligent. *I* certainly dont need the manual just to boot my PC up. But to those of you with bad attitudes, I forgive you, some people are just like that.

[This message has been edited by cynically_deranged (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Parias]

Cynical, that was a pretty good post considering all the other stuff I saw flying around on that thread.. I'm impressed

Anywho, this all sort of reminds me of a lawsuit that a certain developer threatened to take against SomethingAwful for making fun of their game... needless to say, the issue got dropped pretty fast, but it WAS hilarious. Go check it out if you're bored.

Anyways, back on topic, IMHO Homeworld is a pretty damn solid game, with a good storyline and everything. And me trying to compare it with BC3k is an apples/oranges deal. Hell, I like em both just fine Although BC3k gets a bit more use, since I can go back and play it for ages, meanwhile with Homeworld, you beat it once, maybe twice, apply a few mods (One word: Babylon 5!) and play it again, play some multiplayer.. and you're done. It's a good game while it lasts though.

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Cmdr. Parias

Spectre Fleet

Chief Engineer, Starstation Destiny

ICV-Galatae

ICQ:1293359

Staff member at HardNews

"I took this job because I just really love to blow sh*t up!"

[Adam Thomas]

If you are interested in what BCM has to offer, check it out here. BTW- if this "Sno" does turn up and cause trouble, he will more than likely be banned- not nasty, just the way it is. As it stands, I have not played Homeworld to a great extent, but what I have seen I was impressed by. Still, most of what I read on the relic forum had more to do with having a rant at Derek than presenting a valid counter-argument. What he said about homeworld is after all, on HIS website and you don't have to agree with it. That's why it is a soapbox after all. It was not the personal attack that a lot of the die-hard HW fans on the board have taken it for.

Right, that's enough of me ranting for one night!

------------------

Cmdr. A.R. Thomas

Spectre Fleet

Spectre StarStation

ICV-Victorinox

"A small mind is easily filled with faith"

ICQ: 33699963

[Guest cynically_deranged]

Well, I agree, a lot of what gets said on the relic boards is doused with a liberal amount of BS. On the other hand, I think that makes em more interesting in the long run.

And I have to agree that comparing homeworld with BC3k is kind of silly... BC3k seems like more of sim, and HW, when you reduce it down, is just an RTS. Maybe extreemly inovative in a time where we got stuck with 1001 C&C clones, but an RTS none the less.

[Supreme Cmdr]

I see we have some civil posters from the Relic boards. Fair enough, my first impression was to ban the whole lot because I didn't invite them here (they came and disturbed my morning coffee break ) - But I won't because I always like a healthy debate. But its one thing to start a debate and its another to actually send someone email, inviting them to a flame war.

At any rate, with the amount of moderators and admin personnel we have here, I would expect posts and threads to get nuked if they get out of hand and start looking like the Relic board.

Keep it civil. Keep clean or just the hell off my board.

ps: I'd like to apologise to the intelligent HW players for my off-the-cuff comment. After all, HW is complex enough to warrant one-half of a brain to play it. But then again, I'm taking The Fifth because looking at the BS on the Relic boards, you wouldn't put anyone past the age of virginity.

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Derek Smart

Supreme Commander

GCV Warmonger - Prime Fleet

[This message has been edited by Supreme Cmdr (edited 04-19-2000).]

[Supreme Cmdr]

And those of you relic guys used to creating numerous pointless threads on your board, all saying the same thing, please don't do it here. Already two threads have been deleted.

Here, we do not condone that sort of behavior. There is a single thread (this one) regarding this issue that you fine folks instigated. So, keep it in one thread. Thanks.

[Guest boolybooly]

Nice of you to join in the fun.

I would like to comment that HW is like a game of squash. Its not just the equipment that makes it fun, its who you play against.

Its a multi player game primarily, and I have criticised relic on a number of issues regarding the single player game.

As I have criticised them over the bugs that were in the game when it shipped.

I am concerned that it is too easy for developers to leave games unfinished, hence the theme of my posts on the relic forum regarding BC3000 v1. I accept your points of information about the publishers and v2.

I aplogise if my remarks seemed to unfair, but I would just like to quote to Supreme Commander something he wrote as dsmart.....

"If you want to be a part of something, sticking your foot in your mouth as the first course of action will only get you discounted as an uninformed fool. Then again, with an alias like that, one has to wonder." And in my defence say that this applies to you as much as to me

I will certainly try the new version of BC3000 if I should find a convenient demo somewhere, and will hope to be disabused of my suspicions. I have a voodoo2 card so 3dfx is not a problem.

All I want is a good clean (bug free) game ! I am not closed minded, but I dont smoke crack, tsk tsk.

[This message has been edited by boolybooly (edited 04-20-2000).]

[Maxamillian]

boolybooly-You seem to have a lot of critical comments about BC3000 without even playing the game. I have had my go with HW and found it interesting but predictable. You play it once and that is it. Click this and it does that and it will do that over and over. There isn't any dynamic AI to develope the game for the player. It is a no brainer.

If you want to expand you playing skills then give Derek's game a try before trashing it.

'MAX'

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Cmdr. Maxamillian (MAX)

GCV-Dreadnaught

Prime Fleet

G2 Intelligence/Security; G3 Tactics (Acting)

Shipsmotto: "Retreat? Hell!"

[This message has been edited by Maxamillian (edited 04-20-2000).]

[Supreme Cmdr]

boolybooly, there is a demo on the downloads page and all over the net. Check it out first.

[Guest boolybooly]

I have nothing against brains MAX.

I would like to assure you that I have not criticised the game at all.

On the relic board I reflected publicly on the reputation that Derek has in some quarters because of BC3kv1, and interpreted this in the light of my life experience.

In a sense I was drawing a caricature & playing the devil's advocate, but I was also responding to Dereks post in kind, responding to his challenge if you like.

However flame wars are a bit childish as several people on the relic boards have been pointing out so I am trying to resolve the issues raised constructively.

I hope that Derek will find it constructive to consider that in order to get people to try BC3Kv2.09 and BC 3020AD he is going to have to overcome the residual folk memory of what has gone before.

The key to doing this IMHO is to get independant reviews. I have looked for reviews and found none relating specifically to v2.09 or 3020.

Reviews by the developer do not count on this score.

I would be interested if you knew of any links where I might find such reviews, or where I should look for them in the future.

[Supreme Cmdr]

There are lots of v2.0x reviews on the reviews page here. Go to

www.bc3000ad.com/reviews/index.shtml

[Guest boolybooly]

OK mate

dl in progress

let's give it a whirl

[Guest cynically_deranged]

Well, its nice to know you would squash us all outa hand, but I still think your selling HW's potential short. Yes, the AI sucks. Most AI's suck. Ive never understood why it was so hard for programers to make the AI use simple little things like massing of firepower. But then, HW's strengths as Ive said before, are in the Multiplayer.

As for taking "half a brain".. heh! I say, you come find me on Won.net some time, and we'll square off, and see if my half a brain can take you. Just a freindly challenge.

I dont have a lot of experience with BC3K of course, but from what Ive heard, if you have to compare HW and it, its kind of like comparing Star Fleet Battles and Chess.

SFB if one of the gawdawfully most complicated pen&paper wargames known to man. I have never EVER run into a game with more rules (1000+pages, all told). But still, its one of the greatest games known to man. This sounds like BC3K to me.

Chess has the simplest set of rules this side of checkers. It took me half an hour to learn to play chess when I was 10 years old. On the other hand, a simple interface does not make for a simple strategy problem. It just gives you more time to concentrate on the strategy itself. Thats a lot like HW, IMO. so yeah, its easy to play, but its not so easy to win against someone who knows what they're doing.

[Supreme Cmdr]

hehe, you need the other half to play BC3K

btw, its nice to see that not all the HW gamers are morons. Since you guys started this farce less than 24 hrs ago, I've had to delete 4 threads (just did 2 more), several posts, ban 2 people etc. See? thats the kind of disruption I was talking about and those are the kind of HW players that just gives the serious ones a bad name. They're just acting like a bunch of juvenilles. You don't see any of us doing it over there. Why? because we're Commanders and behave more responsibly.

You may want to have a talk with your crew because its just giving you guys a bad name. One particular culprit, goes with the email addy of [email protected] and I just banned him about 5 mins ago.

[Guest papamarx]

Since we're all being civil and whatnot, I do believe that it is unjustified to judge a game by it's forums. Yes, Homeworld does have a superfluous amount of meaningless drivel on itÔÇÖs board, along with some rather young (a.k.a., immature) kiddies, but it also only has one moderator and thus depend heavily on a type of ÔÇ£Community SensibilityÔÇØ in order to keep things in line. If given the choice between a board that was self-monitoring, and a board that had many moderators all decreeing their own personal censorship, I would choose the former.

Also, I know that the Supreme Commander considers himself the eccentric black sheep of the gaming industry, and consequently exercises the liberty that cast would entail ÔÇô but I simply think that there is something terrifically misguided about going on another developers forum and posting about how much their game sucks. This only serves to make you come off looking extremely petty and invidious. Perhaps that is the reaction that is desired, but I think that the wrong outlet was chosen, thatÔÇÖs all.

Incidentally, I have played the full version of BC3000AD V2.0 and, while I liked the concept, simply didnÔÇÖt like the game.

My opinion.

------------------

"The world belongs to the creatively mal-adjusted."

-MLK Jr.

[Guest aramike01]

I've been silent regarding this topic due to other issues. However, since I'm in no mood to retreat from everything that I enjoy due to another man's poor judgement, I'm back.

Now I've never played Homeworld. Nor do I intend upon doing so. The funny thing is, I highly doubt any of the flamers in which we speak of have ever given BC3K a whirl. They just want to jump on and start calling names. Bet you they wouldn't have the balls to do so in real life. In as much, they retreat to the santuary known as the "internet".

Funny thing is, most of these flamers probably don't even have their driver's licenses. Probably not even old enough to drive. The only conclusion their minds were able to come to was that they dislike Derek Smart. Boo-hoo. I personally dislike those who care to pass judgement when there reasons are evidently heresay. Doubtful they've ever tried V2.09. Even more doubtful that they were all burned with the Take-2 fiasco.

Some people obviously have way too much time on their hands.

------------------

Cmdr. Michael Kristophers

Spectre Fleet

Commanding Officer, Spectre StarStation

ICV-Intrepid

Recruitment Officer

"You won't get the Purple Heart hiding in a foxhole!"

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

---

but I simply think that there is something terrifically misguided about going on another developers forum and posting about how much their game sucks. This only serves to make you come off looking extremely petty and invidious. Perhaps that is the reaction that is desired, but I think that the wrong outlet was chosen, thatÔÇÖs all.

---

papamarx: I take it you missed the fact you lot came to my doorstep? Did I, of my own accord, woke up one morning and decided to flame HW players, who, in my opinion, deserved to be flamed for that stunt? Going over there was my decision - and like you, I voiced my opinions. Deal with it.

If you are going to post drivel, at least make it factual drivel.

In the URL above, I quote the entire email. Here it is again for your reading pleasure.

quote:

---

Would you really like an interesting flame war? With numerous opponents in a public internet environ? Many of us at the Relic Message Boards have been holding you and your opinions in contempt for quite some time now. You should never have flamed Homeworld like you did.

Most believe you're a failed, hasbeen, wannabe game developer taking joy at lashing out at those whose successes remind you of your failures. For six months now you have been the bane of the core Homeworld community. And I think it's about time you faced some of your most ardent critics.

Here is the address

http://www.relic.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?...n=intro&BypassC

ookie=true

Begin a new post for an interesting war. But for the sake of authenticity use the word "authenticity" in your first post. Just so I know that it's YOU posting and not some 13 year old dimwit trying to impersonate you. (Many are already waiting with baited breath to 'chat' to you)

Be wary though. Many of us have.....teeth.

---

[This message has been edited by Supreme Cmdr (edited 04-23-2000).]

[Guest papamarx]

I see what you are saying, but there is a big difference between some zit-faced prebubesant half-wit send you, one person an e-mail and you, the lead designer of a game, posting on company X's fan board. Again, it just makes you look really really bad. But I guess that is not your concern.

You truly are the Programmer in the Rye.

[Guest aramike01]

Ever hear the phrase, "Any last words?" asked to a condemned man? Ever wonder why presumed innocence is justice's theme? Ever curious as to the notion that everyone has the right to defend themselves and their property, propriety, and good name?

Not to say that Mr. Smart is a condemned man, btw. Just pointing out that, while your "fan board" of delinquents were typing incoherent paragraphs into their computers, someone intelligent has the right to intervene on his own behalf.

------------------

Cmdr. Michael Kristophers

Spectre Fleet

Commanding Officer, Spectre StarStation

ICV-Intrepid

Recruitment Officer

"You won't get the Purple Heart hiding in a foxhole!"

[This message has been edited by aramike01 (edited 04-24-2000).]

[Guest]

Here's my one and only contribution to this thread...

http://www.relic.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003924.html

"Frankly, there's not much in Homeworld to post in the general forum, except perhaps pictures or something, and who wants that?"

Enough said =)

------------------

Commander Ramius

GCV Black Star

1'st Squadron, *Marauder Wing

Stationed, Fenrir Starbase

"Liberate tetute mae. Ex e ferris"

PST

=Wraith Fleet=

[This message has been edited by Vorpal (edited 04-24-2000).]