Guest tictoc Posted February 2, 2001 Report Posted February 2, 2001 When BCM goes 'GOLD' there will be god willing, a hell of a lot of 'newbies' here, so a question arises, will newbies be treated as per bc3k 'newbies' and get the obligatory 'R.T.F.M' in a thunderous tone (i know from experience) or will the bc community be friendly towards them and gently guide them on their way to an awesome experience. Perhaps a BCM 'Newbie' forum could be set up and only 'helpful' and 'patient' guys would answer and not have everyone following like a bunch of lemmings and jump in to give their opinions. I ask this simple question and hopefully don't get dragged kicking and screaming into the airlock for it.
EAGLE Posted February 2, 2001 Report Posted February 2, 2001 I hope there will be newbie forum. Not we need one, but at one point we were all newbies when every one was saying how bad the game was. And if we wanna make BCM one kick a$$ game we need to make ppl feel welcom so they can spread the word that there is no game better out there. ------------------ "When you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you"
aramike Posted February 2, 2001 Report Posted February 2, 2001 There is a newbie forum already. Called New Commanders.Remember, though - everyone who answers questions does it without obligation, so if foolish, obvious questions start flooding the forums, there may be quite a few RTFMs.
Kush Posted February 2, 2001 Report Posted February 2, 2001 There is a Newbie forum, it's called New Commanders. They're pretty lenient but I know what you mean about the RTFM's. I think if the newbie is kinda polite about it, so are they. I'm sure the fan community for this game has had alot of *impolite* detractors and I think their attitude sometimes comes from that.I get the impression that they're sick and tired of people whining or griping about or insulting the game because of its complexity. At the same time, they want to help those who truly need it, so that they can get that same rush of joy when you realize how deep and free the game play truly is. So they start off with a defensive stand, and if you prove to be sincere, they give you a hand. If you're just here to cause trouble, they're ready to pounce.It's unfortunate really. I know that there are people in the gaming community ready to tear the game apart. And at first I thought it was a bad move for Derek to be so vocal and respond to every threat, but I think it has proven to everyone in the community that he believes in the game, the community and he's not going to sit and take it.I still think he should reign it in on occasion, but I am certain, at this point, that when the game is released, it will speak for itself. And yes he's going to have a whole heap of newbies on his hand. This is a GOOD THINGIt may be a good idea, once the game is released, for us newbies to look out for each other. I know that when the game was originally forced out the door it didn't have a complete manual, and I know that Derek has put alot of hard work into making an excellent manual, but sometimes you don't want to hunt down a simple command that you found a second ago and can't seem to locate again. I think we newbies will be a little more understanding towards other newbies and so I think we should at least try to help out.
Steve Schacher Posted February 2, 2001 Report Posted February 2, 2001 You don't have to worry about whiners and detractors. This is a highly moderated site and anyone who is not here to help advance the enjoyment of the BC universe will get permanently booted back to the alt.xxx usenet forums.Everyone here is more than willing to help those who first try to help themselves. The freshman test has always been that if you can't figure out how to search the forums for your answer, then you'll never be able to figure out how to play the game. quote:I think we newbies will be a little more understanding towards other newbies and so I think we should at least try to help out. That was the other unspoken rule. Once some kind soul helps you out with something, you repay the kindness by helping out the next unfortunate soul who asks. It builds community spirit.
Guest tictoc Posted February 2, 2001 Report Posted February 2, 2001 Aramike, i gotta say in defence of 'newbies' is that what appears to be 'foolish and obvious' questions to a seasoned 'vet' as yourself may not be as clear cut as others new to it, who want to 'get into the game' as fast as possible, this is what i was trying to say about the R.T.F.M's. In hindsight now, i deserved to be beaten thoroughly with a cattle prod, but then as a newbie....Kush - Every forum gets whiners and lamers but would it be better not to start off 'defensivly' as that can put off a lot of guys (more often than not, those who have never tried anything like this before) who may get a bad impression from a brusque reply and either hang on hopeing someone else asks the question they need answering, chance it or give up the game altogether therefore adding to the 'detractors'.
Eclipse Posted February 3, 2001 Report Posted February 3, 2001 TicToc: incase you didn't notice, the BC series are NOT games you dive into after 2 minutes of reading. There is absolutely NO reason to have 20 topics on "how do I assign waypoints" when the manual clearly states it. In fact, there shouldn't even be ONE topic, but because ppl forget about that hunk of paper called the manual we get questions like that. Thats why the RTFM aand RTFAQ messages pop up alot. No sense trying to describe something SC already has done in the manual.------------------ Commodore Kyle Antilles ICV-Eclipse, Destiny Starstation (Nevuela) Commanding Officer, Destiny Spectre Fleet"You can only love or hate something you truly understand"
Kush Posted February 3, 2001 Report Posted February 3, 2001 Steve,I have noticed in the New Commander and Tech threads a little attitude, but I understand where the attitude comes from. I think the BC community has had to put up with alot of crap from certain quarters outside of these forums, and after a while, it can get to you. It's understandable. I've seen it happen on other forums with other games. You get tired of people not seeing the game for what it truly is, not giving it a chance. You may not even know or feel the attitude you're giving off, but it's there. And I guess what I'm saying is we newbies, who haven't had to carry the burden of defending the game for so long, we haven't had to respond to the three thousandth request to explain how to raise shields, we can help out with a fresh attitude, free of the game's - er - history. And I know this forum is pretty well patroled, but when the game gets released, I'm sure there will be alot of people with alot of questions. It's a very complex game. That's part of its joy. I think a newbie is more suited to help out with the stupidest, dumbest questions so that everyone and anyone can feel like they can master the game.tictocAfter having said all that, I also have to say that you also have to kind of have a thick skin on any forum. With any game. I don't know how many times I've played TFC or CS and had someone ask how to set a detonator, or buy weapons and the simple question gets a royal cussing out. A couple of RTFM's won't kill a person.
Steve Schacher Posted February 3, 2001 Report Posted February 3, 2001 Kush,Nobody's disagreeing with anything you've said. It's just that this topic comes up with each new generation of fans. And believe me, people here know the attitude that their giving off. In the old days it was a sport, but we've matured a lot since then.But I guess the deepest truth of these posts this time around is that if BC:M explodes on the marketplace to such degree that it dwarfs what BC3K ever did, then this place will go from being the cozy little community that it's been to being a big noisy metropolis with thousands of participants who just want their questions answered.When that happens, maybe the private beta forum could be converted into a private elders' club where we can retreat from the newbies and commune amongst ourselves.
Gallion Posted February 3, 2001 Report Posted February 3, 2001 All stupid questions receive the same answer - RTFM or RTFAQWhether the question is from a forum newbie or a forum vet.TTFN ------------------ Commander Gallion GCV Graf Spee, Starbase Cerberus Wing Leader - Wraith Fleet/Corsair Wing "Run Silent, Run Deep" Corsair Cove Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series Leader, Team 1
aramike Posted February 3, 2001 Report Posted February 3, 2001 quote:Aramike, i gotta say in defence of 'newbies' is that what appears to be 'foolish and obvious' questions to a seasoned 'vet' as yourself may not be as clear cut as others new to it, who want to 'get into the game' as fast as possible, this is what i was trying to say about the R.T.F.M's.Pull yourself up a chair. Got a story to tell.I remember my very first post on this site. I couldn't get the game to work, so I posted seeking assistance. The first one to respond to my thread was Derek, using something like "I've misplaced my crystal ball, so please just tell me your system specs.". So I did, and he tirelessly tried to fix my problem. But you see, he was trying CUSTOM fixes, because he assumed that I had read the FAQ. So nothing worked.Then he asked me if I had read the FAQ. I said something like, "What's a F..A..Q?". Anyway, I went and read the damned thing and sure enough, I got the game running smoothly.Who knows, if it weren't for questions like those, BCM may be gold by now. Anyway, my very NEXT thread was, "why can't I orbit?". When I checked back, it had mysteriously vanished (thanks, Derek ). So, I used the search feature to try and find my thread. I didn't find it (as it had been deleted), but I DID find about 100 threads referring to the EXACT SAME TOPIC. If only I had done that in the first place...The point is that this site is run just like the game - you've got to use your head to get ahead. No one wants to CONSTANTLY answer the EXACT, SAME questions over and over again, not to mentions questions that have been well-documented in SEVERAL places. And if I, for one, find a topic that's been covered over and over again; documented like crazy, I will be deleting it on site. You want to know why? Because if TOO many threads on the same topic start to clutter the forums, you've just gone and rendered that search feature USELESS. But if you think this is bad, or something of that sort, just go visit any OTHER gaming community. You'll never find one like this, where the BS is kept out, and useful, easy to find information is all that's cluttering the place. I mean, how many detractors do you find in here, cluttering up the boards? None. That's because, if by SOME stroke of genious they manage to get past the initial CAT screen, they're found out and banned IMMEDIATELY. Differing opinions are welcome here. Personal attacks are not. Go to any other site, and that's what you'll find. And here, if you're told to read the manual, you may as well just do that because the information you're looking for really IS easy to find.If you're truly lost (as many can be), then post here. You'll either find your answer, or be led in the right direction. This forum is a community, not the instruction manual for BC3K or BCM.~Mike
Guest tictoc Posted February 3, 2001 Report Posted February 3, 2001 Guys, not wishing to start a war here and i know i do risk the possibility of being booted out for continuing to voice my opinion. Eclipse - I do know this game is very complex and yes, manuals do exist to be read, but, what a newbie expects from a posting reply is 'please check the manual' and not 'R.T.F.M' stuffed down their throats, it's a thing called 'being tackful'. If someone does not have the patients to answer civily then they should not answer at all, would you agree on this? Aramike - your answer is about what i have saying, as a newbie you had had questions that needed answers and derek (bless him) provided what you needed, therefore what is 'obvious' to some, is not 'obvious' to others. Steve - I applaud your reply, maybe a new forum for the 'elders' is a good idea (guys i love you all, really). If i get kicked out, then so be it, i'll still buy BCM as i know it's a superb game done by one of the true 'Greats' in the 'industry' and i'll promote it as much as i can to whoever will listen.tic
Eclipse Posted February 3, 2001 Report Posted February 3, 2001 Tictoc: it ranges to just plain "RTFM" to "if I were you I would Read The Fine Manual" if you would like I might be able to come up with all of the acceptable variations next time I post so that you can easily choose a more tactful one. ------------------ Commodore Kyle Antilles ICV-Eclipse, Destiny Starstation (Nevuela) Commanding Officer, Destiny Spectre Fleet"You can only love or hate something you truly understand"
Guest Posted February 3, 2001 Report Posted February 3, 2001 I have to agree, I got RTFM quite a few times, everyone does, it's like a hazing in ROTC, and guess what? I read the manual. When I see a question about "O", I ignore it, because I know that it will be deleted might quick!! so why bother!!LOL(see above post)I think that we are all quite tactful and helpful, until it's proven that we better start getting a little hardcore. The new Commander thread is right where it should be.My attitude is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!Sorry Tic Toc, but it ain't broke!!! ------------------ CMDR Jaguar GCV Excelsior This is not just a game, It's a life unto itself!![This message has been edited by Jaguar (edited 02-03-2001).]
aramike Posted February 3, 2001 Report Posted February 3, 2001 quote:Guys, not wishing to start a war here and i know i do risk the possibility of being booted out for continuing to voice my opinion.First, let me make one thing clear to everyone: you will NEVER, EVER get booted out of here for simply voicing an opinion. Doing it with serious disrespect is what gets people booted. quote:Aramike - your answer is about what i have saying, as a newbie you had had questions that needed answers and derek (bless him) provided what you needed, therefore what is 'obvious' to some, is not 'obvious' to others.Yeah, so did everyone else provide what I needed, by directing me in the right direction. The bottom line is, if you come here and you want someone to hold your hand throughout the learning curve, you're playing the wrong game. As I said before, we're not the manual, we're the community. We'll help out friends, but we won't DO IT ALL for them. So, if there's a question about something that's been WELL-DOCUMENTED, covered to death, etc., it's going to go. Is it NOT the gamer's responsibility to use the resources at hand? It IS their responsibility. Especially when the resources are abundant.The people here are friends and gamers, NOT a resource.
Guest tictoc Posted February 3, 2001 Report Posted February 3, 2001 O.K guys, all points taken in. End of threadtic
Kush Posted February 5, 2001 Report Posted February 5, 2001 I know you want to end the thread, but I do have a request. Instead of instantly removing a stupid newbie question, could we give them a stock response first. ie This question is answered in the manual. I was ready to repost my stupid newbie question because I thought there was something wrong with the server. If you get a response, at least you know the question got through.I actually think it's a real good thread. An important thread. I think we're all gearing up for the games emminent release and we all hope that it pulls in a lot of new players.I actually think the game's redesign and training level will help with alot of newbie questions. But I think it's important to care how they're treated.
aramike Posted February 5, 2001 Report Posted February 5, 2001 quote:I know you want to end the thread, but I do have a request. Instead of instantly removing a stupid newbie question, could we give them a stock response first. ie This question is answered in the manual.That's generally what happens. I probably should have said this before, but the only time I'll delete a "newbie" question is if it's from a newbie who makes a habit out of posting such questions.
Supreme Cmdr Posted February 5, 2001 Report Posted February 5, 2001 quote:incase you didn't notice, the BC series are NOT games you dive into after 2 minutes of reading. There is absolutely NO reason to have 20 topics on "how do I assign waypoints" when the manual clearly states it. In fact, there shouldn't even be ONE topic, but because ppl forget about that hunk of paper called the manual we get questions like that. Thats why the RTFM aand RTFAQ messages pop up alot. No sense trying to describe something SC already has done in the manual.Couldn't have said it any better. quote:But I guess the deepest truth of these posts this time around is that if BC:M explodes on the marketplace to such degree that it dwarfs what BC3K ever did, then this place will go from being the cozy little community that it's been to being a big noisy metropolis with thousands of participants who just want their questions answered.Whis is, for the very first time in my career, what I'm afraid of. Yes, the money would be nice, but I'm not some hugh corporation just looking to sell units. The larger the game is, the more likely it is to get out of hand. However, I remain confidence that the guys here can handle it. Even the newbies of olde are now on their way to being vets. That how a community grows. And since we're moderated here, and buying the game doesn't give you any right to come here and cause trouble, I don't think we're going to run into problems. heck, we weathered the storm that was BC3K - look where we are today. And if BCM is any indication that ...we've arrived, the world, outside of our Beta team (to which most of you belong), have no idea what BCM is about to do and/or become when its released. quote:When that happens, maybe the private beta forum could be converted into a private elders' club where we can retreat from the newbies and commune amongst ourselves.Yes, I've been thinking about that actually. I will keep the Beta forum as-is because we're going into full blown GCO development once BCM ships, and since it uses the BCM engines, we'll all just flow into that product and move on. I will create another private forum as you suggest. This way, the vets can hang out there without having it polluted with the public deluge that is sure to come. Heck, I'm even scared to release a demo. CGW just wrapped up a 4 page bio on me, the game etc, for their April issue and I have been in two minds whether to release a demo in that issue or not. I just can't handle the traffic and the disruption just yet. And I don't mean disruption in terms of people with problems (there will be those, of course), but am talking in terms of newbies to the series, thinking they're going to get up and run before they can walk. They'll just die tired. quote:This forum is a community, not the instruction manual for BC3K or BCMDamn, that was fine!! OK everyone, make a note of it. Thats the new community motto!!! quote:Guys, not wishing to start a war here and i know i do risk the possibility of being booted out for continuing to voice my opinion.If you were going to be booted, you wouldn't still be posting. Just relax, keep it civil and you'll do fine. I've been reading your posts and I understand your side of the picture. You haven't been around long enough to understand ours. But, am sure you'll get the hand of it soon enough.However, the more you talk about being kicked out, the more I think you probably have a kick wish (damn, I kill me )But as the others have pointed out, the system aint't broke, so we ain't fixing it. Its worked for us for several years, going back as far back as 1996 in the days of BC3K 1.x, when we did'nt even have such a cool site.Besides, telling someone to RTFM is not being impolite, its an order. Period. Nobody wants to rehash the same tired old crap day and day out. Its one thing to search the forum and find 2 bits of useful info - and another to pull up 20 bits of useless info...all saying the same thing.The BC games are a niche series. That much is established. As such, you are required to RTFM and just, well, get with the program. You go out and buy a flight sim and go post at one of the flight sim forums how to take off or land, and you'll get your ass delivered to you in an AGM Shrike. [This message has been edited by Supreme Cmdr (edited 02-04-2001).]
Joaquin Posted February 6, 2001 Report Posted February 6, 2001 Derek,Talking about civility, one way to stave off having to reply with RTFM is to place a warning in the description of the New Commanders forum. Something like "We highly suggest reading the fine manual (RTFM)and / or using the search function at least once before posting in this forum." That way they won't get hit cold with "RTFM!" type replies. You may even want to highlight the newbie area (change the color of the title to green, or whatever). The idea of two sites, one for newbies and one for vets really sounds like the way to go in the long run if you can pull it off without a lot of hassle.
Joel Schultz Posted February 6, 2001 Report Posted February 6, 2001 I have to agree with Joaquin about warning to search first -- and then making "search" a bit more noticeable. From personal experience, I didn't even realize the forums had a search function initially -- till one day I happend to see in itty bitty letters the word "search" under the "post reply" button among some other links.Of course, I probably should've paid more attention in the first place On the other hand, perhaps a more prominent link to the search page would encourage both its discovery and use?
Epsilon 5 Posted February 7, 2001 Report Posted February 7, 2001 I agree with all the good ideas said before but how would the "vets" or the "serious" forum work?I think it would be a good idea that only commanders and above (50+ posts) could access the forum (spammers won't get to 50...).If this community turn in a metropolis, it will be quite a shock. The best thing to keep in the clipboard will sure be the "RTFM"...Hmm, if it gets there, I think the forum will need more moderators will a hell lot of patience and/or hair (LOL!)And the motto thing is a great idea! All in favor raise your hand!This forum is a community, not the instruction manual for BC3K or BCM*Ep5 raises its left hand*Nota: Maybe the forum will need a "Stupid commanders" section ...------------------ Commander Epsilon 5 UCV-StalkerIV Searching for its fleet"Hmmm... what's that? Nothing anymore."[This message has been edited by Epsilon 5 (edited 02-06-2001).]
Wold Posted February 7, 2001 Report Posted February 7, 2001 Well Joel, it took me a bit to find the search button the first time too. Maybe changing the font size or color might help.However, how many of us have stood there shoving on a door that won't open only to finally look six inches past our nose to see the words PULL... quote:Something like "We highly suggest reading the fine manual (RTFM)and / or using the search function at least once before posting in this forum." add to that ...or you may get the other RTFM! IMO both of those ideas seem good to me. It might trim a few redundant questions and hurt feelings. ------------------ Commodore Wold ICV-Drakr, Spectre HQ (Antis) Commanding Officer, Spectre HQ Spectre FleetICQ 4669033 "You can only love or hate something you truly understand"
Kush Posted February 8, 2001 Report Posted February 8, 2001 I think a big fat link to the search engine on a clearly marked out Newbie board is a great idea. I'd even take it a step further, and put a big, fat link to the PDF manual right in the newbie board. I think the easier you make it for newbies to get information on their own the better.I think there are going to be fewer questions this time round. I think the redesign and training module will help alot.This game may be the most complex game ever. EVER. If BCM gets alot of new players, (which I really hope it does.) giving them a little helping hand will only make things better.But these issues are basically about site design. Something we can worry about after the game is released.
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