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thanatos

U.S.A. versus P.R.C.

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Im not american tekrebel, but international law states that you cannot shoot or intercept a foreign plane in international waters, no matter if its a glider or a military aircraft.

Besides that, you also have an international aviation rule that the bigger, slower, less manouverable plane ALWAYS has the right of way.

Add that to the fact that the chinese fighter had to be really damn close and with matching speeds and similar vectors to hit the bigger aircraft and not cause a collision which would have brought both of them down. How did the US plane not go down or break into pieces? Ask any RL pilot, they can tell you how damn improbable that is if it had been anything else but a bump between craft flying too close.

The P.R.C. are just squeezing this as much as they can, thats about it. Im sure they havent forgotten about their embassy being bombed a while back, its media payback in a sort of way.

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Remo, Thanks Bro!!

Parias, cute, and funny

Blackwell, AMEN!!! although I disagree with some of your first and second post. Please continue posting, you have some excellent points!!

Tac, got that right

Ben, YOU GO commander!!!

And then Tac, that was quite amusing as well.

Fact is, China owes us an apology, China is now a rogue country, violating International law is not something a country that is serious about joining the modern world does.

They have kidnapped our servicemembers, and hijacked a US aircraft, this is an act of war!! it would be like firing and sinking one of our ships in international waters. Then keeping the sailors Hostage after rescuing them. This is a BLATANT act of war.

Our diplomats and politicians will not say this directly, but they are not expected to, they are expected to use everything possible short of outright violence to handle this diplomatically, after that fails, then WE

USE VIOLENCE!!!

China is running out of time, they need to get it together, and apologize for being pirates.

The American people will put up with a lot of abuse, but we can only be pushed so far.

Edit: When it comes to my country, I am about as patriotic as they come, I may not be very diplomatic, but I think I get my point across. I do not mince words, I tell it like I see it!!! Some of you are MUCH more subtle and sophisticated then I am, and I respect that a great deal, but I am what I am!! lol

Let us continue, I am finding it fascinating as well as educational!!

[ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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It's too bad your not going to continue posting Blackwell, you have an excelent perspective on this (and in most things in general I would guess from what I've seen).

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First I would like to apologize for the generalization I made. It was completely improper.

The fact is that the Chinese started this, we were NOT spying, if we had been in their airspace, it would have been spying. We were in International waters, we were surveying, there is a difference!!

Well I'm sorry for you being so gullible. The fact is that the US has been spying on almost every country in the world for quite some time now. I'm sure other countries do the same thing but it is in my opinion foolish to accept unquestionably the military version of the fact (surveying stuff).

We are the ONLY superpower, we have every right to be pissed off when some little commy country decides to trifle with us, no matter how big it's population."..."

I don't think I should dignify this comment with a response. I tend to believe that was intentional flamebait :]

Bush and his staff are the best this country has to offer, they will get it right, and we can scream and yell as much as we want, but what they do is what matters. They will not do anything like Nuke them, but you may be surprised at what they do do.

Yes, I'm sure they are the best. They have decided not to honor the Kyoto accord, gave compagnies more power and are now trying to bully other countries in doing the same thing. What is going to happen to the environment? Is it okay to support a goverment that puts money and military in front of people, environment and social values?

Add that to the fact that the chinese fighter had to be really damn close and with matching speeds and similar vectors to hit the bigger aircraft and not cause a collision which would have brought both of them down. How did the US plane not go down or break into pieces? Ask any RL pilot, they can tell you how damn improbable that is if it had been anything else but a bump between craft flying too close.

It's something we will never know for sure since it is known that the media are pretty good at "arranging" stories so they fit the goverment needs. Same thing applies for China. Someone said in the previous replies that China did this intentionally. Excuse me but do you sincerely think that the chinese were making evil schemes to bring one of those spy plane down?

US Imperialism, you say? At the last I heard, we were the United States of America, not the People's Republic of States. If you want to look at Imperialists, look at China. Here in the US, we have a little something called the Bill of Rights. Certain inalienable rights granted to all of us based on the fact that we are human.

Yes but how can the US goverment go and tell other countries how to act when they're rotten from the inside with so many social problems? After all, America is the country with the most people in prison, not China. We need to fix our problems before going out and playing Big Brother with the other ones.

Expanding their military forces, threatening Taiwan with invasion, and building ICBM's that could reach completely across the Pacific Ocean is not threatening?

If you look at it from an objective point of view, the United States are doing exactly the same thing.

They have now broken that faith. And let me ask you this. No matter how it happened, if they were Canadian soliders, would you want them back?

Of course but I'm sure the soldiers there are being treated properly. It's not as if China could afford being accused of torture. There is many things going on that we don't know about. Military is war, bad things happen on both sides of the line.

What I think we should NOT forget is that the US goverment has OFTEN supported revolutions in places all over the globe to put DICTATORS in office because these leaders have agreed to some economic partership with the US. Most people in North America (Canada too) have NO idea how much blood is dripping from their hands for policies the goverment they voted for have applied.

Yes, my posts seem totally anti-american. I do not wish to make it seem that way, but I felt by reading the posts here that I needed to balance things a bit.

Yes, I am canadian by birth but I have never supported the fascist regime in place and I will never identify myself as being a proud canadian. With the current goverment in place, Canada is simply following the US lead in too many areas.

We must stop pretending the American Way is the best one and that we must enforce it on every other individual on the planet. But I guess I'm straying a bit too far from the subject now.

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Guest Remo Williams

I agree Blackwell please continue to post your opinion even though I dont agree with some of it. I do find it interesting. I'm quite fed-up with the PRC we have shown alot of restraint on this matter. Its time for our men & women to come home or some sort of action must be taken besides words.

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Now that the situation is drawing to a close I have to say I think it was handled very well by our government. Like it or not, when you sign on to serve in the military you are accepting a risk of death, capture, etc. Although I hate to see 24 servicemen and women being detained, there is a right way and a wrong way to handle the situation. Trade embargos and such would be detrimental to the US despite what the pundits say. Companies like Boeing, Motorola, IBM, AT&T, and others have significant investment and revenue from Chinese business. Hurting that business doesn't damage "Big Business"...it hurts the tens of thousands of regular Joes employed by those companies.

The reality of the situation is that our government weighed the options and made the right call. End of game.

~Pio

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You know, I'm really curious about something.

First of all let me state my (humble) opinion on this issue. I think any civilized person would agree that keeping hostages to press a foreign government to do something is ethically unacceptable, and the fact that these things still happen today is a painful reminder of how long is the way we still have ahead before mankind deserves the denomination of civilized species. I don't wanna talk about arrogance or brainwashing for the moment.

I'd like to take a little survey on this forum, if you don't mind. Suppose that you are president Bush (no offense intended) and you have the magic power to see the future of the world. Suppose that you can take one of the following two alternatives, whose outcome you know beforehand:

Option 1: You apologize to China. You write a letter saying something like "please, forgive us for spying on you, and accept our sincere condolences for the loss of one of your fine pilots. In return, you are welcome to come with your planes to international waters near the cost of Florida and take a peek at the fun we are having over here". The outcome of this decision is that the relations between China and the US start to improve with time, China becomes a member of the World Trade Organization and eventually embraces democracy as government system. No casualties in either side.

Option 2: You refuse to apologize. The tension increses. You send a command to rescue the crew and blow up the plane. The operation is a full success. Five Chinese soldiers get killed in the action. A "terrorist" action against the US embassy results in the death of 6 US marines. Things get worse and eventually lead to ... war. It turns out that the US military is so superior that victory is soon achieved. The powerful US military wipes out China, killing 90% of the population using both nuclear and conventional warfare. There are no casualties on the American side. Zero. The remaining 10% of the Chinese population pitifully starts to rebuild their country and embrace capitalism as their political system. The brute force exhibition is so shocking that no other nation in the world would ever dare to contradict America's will.

So which one would you choose?

Oh, by the way, remember that old TV show, M*A*S*H? Did you like it?

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dammit, I had a nice 1 page post and the server whacked my reply posting *sniff*

Oh well, in short:

Anyone that believes the "accident" wasn't intentional needs to lose that innocence. The very nature of the collision entails the 2 craft were very, very close together and in similar trajectories. Only an imbecile would fly that close to a bigger aircraft. So did the chinese fighter get "pushed" into the bigger plane by a wind? Hardly, that is why you dont fly so close to a bigger plane in the first place. The whole scheme is so blatantly laid out it makes a disney movie look unpredictable.

The US has apologized for the accident and the crew will be returned soon (check CNN.com). All that is left is to see what the US will do to return the favor.

In my opinion, the BEST thing US could do is use China's blatant disregard for international law and its failure to honor its agreements to the international community and ACKNOWLEDGE TAIWAN as an independent nation.

To secure international stability, the US would have to spend a lot of resources and make a lot of deals to secure a vote in their favor once the US pushes for Taiwan's acceptance into the U.N. in the SAME day.Once the major world powers recognize Taiwan as an independent nation AND welcome it into the UN, the Chinese will get the message that their misbehaviour has cost them dearly.. both in economics and face value.

I bet them Chinese gov folks will be giving birth to their hemmorroids once that happens. Its the perfect excuse for Taiwanese independence and to punish China.

Next stop, Tibet!

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Well Hector that really does illustrate the issue well. There are only 2 options in this test of wills...slowly agree with what the Chinese want, or go to war.

The value to us in flying reconaissence missions along the coast of China is 2-fold. It allows us to take a look at their tactics and the weaponry that they are purchasing from the Russians. It also allows us critical first-response data for Taiwan.

Letting them patrol the coast of Florida s a meaningless exercise because American military tactics are on display for the public to see all around the world. There is no big secret about our deployment strategies or combined-arms policies, in fact the Gulf War has been dissected and analyzed and the info is in the public domain. Allowing the Chinese to patrol the border doesn't put hardware in their hands, which is where our real advantage lies.

The only problem is that it will violate our national pride and stuff like that. I don't know what the answer to that is though, because its hard to contemplate unrealistic hypothetical situations.

~Pio

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No, no, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying those are the only two options in the real scenario. I'm not even saying they are realistic.

I'm just curious about which one would people choose if they were left with these two only. Consider it as a "personality test"

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Great, I join the thread just as everything is wrapping up.

The crew is returned, a letter of regret is sent for the loss of life and landing without clearance. And spy missions will continue with some protocol on what to do in case of a collision. It's done. I think Bush handled it well. I think everyone should be thankful there was no further loss of life.

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quote:


Originally posted by Hector Socas Navarro:

Pioneer, I certainly hope you are right. That would mean there's still hope for our race. But some of the posts I read here are raising some doubts in my mind.

Sometimes one gets the impression that war is fun and exciting


Absolutely not. However, war can be a terrible necessity at times. I mean, let's say diplomacy does NOT work. What then, does one nation do? Let another country take advantage of them simple because they seek peace?

This is why a strong military is necessary. It gives you the ability to say "hey, we want peace but we're not going to compromise our soverienty to give YOU that peace".

If the PRC had the ability, they'd lay a claim to the ENTIRE world. They are dictators and they believe in total control.

I, for one, believe with ALL my heart that it is better to die a free man than live as a slave.

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quote:

I, for one, believe with ALL my heart that it is better to die a free man than live as a slave.

Wholeheartedly agreed there, Mike.

As far as diplomacy versus war goes, let us remember Clausewitz who said (and I'm paraphrasing here) War is merely diplomacy conducted through other means.

Sometimes it is neccessary, whether we wish it that way or not. Personally, I would like to see no more major wars in my lifetime. Unfortunately, however, I think it might be wishful thinking.

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All I have to say is YES, Bush made the right moves on this one. China Backed Down on this one BIG TIME!!!

WE WON!! End of Story!!!

Cheney, and Powell did the job they were hired to do!!!

China can have the damn plane, there's nothing left on it worth analyzing anyway.

Now, it is time to punish the little Chicoms BIG time!! We need to pull their WTO status, make sure they do NOT get the 2008 Olympic games, Sell Taiwan all the military equipment they want, and, we the people need to BOYCOTT chinese goods.

last but not least, From now on, we need those EP-3's escorted by fighters of our own. Let's see how the Chinese like being buzzed by REAL fighter pilots!!!

All in all, BUSH DONE GOOD!!!

And to respond to some of the other posts, in all honesty, I would choose B, why, because sooner or later we ARE going to war with China, unless the Chinese people make it unnecessary. They have been building up for this for a LONG time.

Clinton was hoping to do what Carter did, honey, instead of Vinegar, be sweet, give them what they want and they will realize that we are not the bad guys.

WRONG, Communists, and especially Chinese Communists do not respect this, to them it shows weakness. Also Clinton is a Socialist anyway, he LIKES the Chinese government and wishes that he had had that kind of power when he was in office. As you may have noticed, the law didn't apply to him!! or so he thought.

We showed strength and we DID not Compromise, I am sorry they lost a pilot, but that pilot was an idiot!! I am sorry we landed without verbal clearance, but what else were we supposed to do with an armed fighter ready to blow the plane from the sky.

We apologized for the most silly things, and that's what makes it such a good apology, IT DOESN'T mean a thing, and we got our people back.

China is already SPINNING it within their own country, but we know the truth, we won!!

Bush done good!!!

[ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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I can't believe anyone would choose wanton destruction of human life (Option #1) over a spreading of prosperity and humanity (Option #2), at the cost of some national humiliation.

I , however, doubt that allowing the U.S. to be humiliated, and condoning state-sponsored terrorism will lead to closer ties with China.

What if we have chosen to go down an Option #3 route: a scenario where we back down, only to have China continue its military expansion, obtain accurate ICBMs in the several hundreds targeted at all our major cities (civilian not military targets as China knows our weakness of the threat of loss of human life), obtains a submarine force, and a limited blue water navy, and then invades Taiwan/Tibet/Eastern Russia/Japan?

We need to address their disregard for International law, and their own human rights. I don't think history shows good results with nations that back down to rogue/terrorist states in order to avoid conflict. Perhaps these truly are different times, and we'll see an situation similar to Option #1 unfold. I hope so, but I'm suspicious human nature has changed little, and the person/nation with the least to lose with take the greatest risks to get their way.

[ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: thanatos ]

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quote:

Originally posted by Jaguar:

WE WON!! End of Story!!!


See what I mean? For many people it's just a game.

quote:

And to respond to some of the other posts, in all honesty, I would choose B.

See Pioneer? And I'm afraid there are many more who think the same way.

Jaguar, perhaps if you had Chinese friends (as I do) you'd see they're not evil monsters but normal people just like you and me (not that I approve their government's attitude in this conflict, though).

Anyway, I'm glad to see that the US is a nation ruled by people with some common sense and intelligence who can work things out in the right manner. I wish they had done it sooner, though, before the polls starting to appear.

Thanatos, of course everything has limits. I was only asking about those 2 scenarios because the answer tells you a lot about the people around you. By the way, I'm glad to hear you too value human lifes over nationalism.

[ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: Hector Socas Navarro ]

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quote:

Jaguar, perhaps if you had Chinese friends (as I do) you'd see they're not evil

monsters but normal people just like you and me (not that I approve their

government's attitude in this conflict, though).


I do have Chinese friends, they live in Taiwan, I sell thier products here in the United States and Canada. I deal directly with Taiwanese EVERY day!! You ought to see my phone bill!!

The Chinese are a major International Security threat, that's it that's all. Yes, I agree that the people are just like you and me, but the government they have is EVIL!! and the fact of the matter is, if the Chicoms continue on the road they are on, WE ARE GOING TO GO TO WAR with them at some time in the near future, Unless, the citizens of China decide to take thier lives in thier own hands and overthrow thier communist masters.

If we have to go to war and kill a majority of those citizens, I will indeed be sorry, but China must be stopped when they decide it is time, you have no idea how scared my friends in Taiwan are of China!!

Also, the Germans are just like us, the Italians, and the Japanese, should that have stopped us in WWII? No? I didn't think so!!

[ 04-11-2001: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

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So much passion in these posts. It's difficult to disagree with friends, but it always happens when talking about politics (and religion, and sports teams, and fashion, and computer games,....and.....)

Hey! Who started this thread?

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quote:


Jaguar, perhaps if you had Chinese friends (as I do) you'd see they're not evil monsters but normal people just like you and me (not that I approve their government's attitude in this conflict, though).

Their government is completely "evil", for lack of a better term.

Also worthy of note: what power would that government actually HAVE if millions of people didn't support them? With China's record on human rights (their imrpisonment or plain MURDER of those who disagree with them), ANY and ALL of their supporters are accessories to MURDER, in my opinion.

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HOOO HAAAA Aramike!!

I will never understand that little whinig Pacifist saying, "they're people too!!"

Yes, And I will not fight you on that, but it still does not excuse thier tyrannical government keeping thier little beady eyes out for any kind of weakness to exploit in order to tear apart some other persons world, and therefore get more power for themselves.

If you believe in your heart of hearts that they are "just people too" then why not go to China and join them now, since you will be unable or unwilling to kill a few of them for your own or our allies freedom and liberty.

This is cowardice, nothing more. Yes, some of them are your friends, sorry about that. Thier government is evil and if your friends get killed in the crossfire, I am indeed sorry, but if they had stood up for thier rights and told thier government where to shove it, we and they wouldn't be in the predicament that they would find themselves.

The Chinese WILL have to be dealt with at some point in time, as long as they continue doing what they are doing. If thier attitude changes, then we will see, but right now everything that I have seen points to a war with China sooner or later. Probably I am afraid Sooner, expecially after what they have done, and once they realize that this apology gained a lot in the translation, and was nothing but a sarcastic smack to the face. They are gonna be pissed!!

So, all of you who feel that the Chicoms are NOT dangerous, sit there with your rose colored glasses on, we will protect ourselves, and while doing so, will protect you as well. Whether you like it or not!!!

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