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[Akuma Minako]

[deleted]

If you are truly someone other than Akuma, then register yourself and post as yourself.

We will not tolerate personal attacks against other members of this site.

CAT Team

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Steve Schacher ]

[Steve Schacher]

quote:

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Mr President, don't do this. Humanity has already lost over 5,000 lives to bloodlust. Don't let that number become 500,000...

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Thomas Paine wrote about society's obligation to antiquity and posterity. This is an action that we owe to posterity. If we don't stop terrorism now, then the 500,000 will still occur by the terrorists. Would you rather have the innocent killed or the soldiers who are trying to stop it?

quote:

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The cause of this conflict is not religion, not even a twisted interpretation of it. Religion is just the coincidental source of unity which has been adopted by the people in their own campaign. They want non-interference from America in the affairs of the Middle East, including an end to the selling of arms to Israel.

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President Bush made it clear that religion was not the issue. What people don't realize is that Bin Laden is trying to destroy the world market. The peoples of 60 countries were in the World Trade Center, not just Americans. If he wanted to attack America, he could have hit the Statue Of Libery or Mt. Rushmore and hurt the American psyche, but he wanted to 1) kill Americans, and 2) disrupt the world economy. As you said, religion was the means to coerce his operatives, but his mission is clear.

Also, it is interesting to note that Bin Laden is a multi-millionaire in his own right -- he comes from a rich family. If the people of Afghanistan are suffering, why isn't he helping them with his own vast resources?

Also not widely considered, is the fact that American military action in the past 10 years was to defend Muslims: the Gulf War was to save the Kuwaiti's who are Muslim, intervention in the Balkans to save Bosnia, again Muslims, and then defending Kosovo from Serbia, more Muslims. And then there were the starving people of Somalia, also Muslims.

Where's the credit for that? We are not against Islam, only the terrorist who are using Islam as a shield to coerce people into supporting them and the people who are using the religion card to divert reaction and cause turmoil and confusion among the diversity-constrained democracies who might stop them.

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Steve Schacher ]

[Guest]

Please avoid comments such as these. They only serve to through fuel onto the fire.

~Mike

Thank you Steve, if I had known that such great words would come from this thread, I would have started it earlier.

Every time you post in seriousness, I learn something new, and it is usually profound.

THANK YOU!!!

and thank you for sharing your knowledge!!

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: aramike ]

[Menchise]

Jaguar, if you're referring to me as thought police (note that I said "if"), then I must say that I haven't tried to censor anything. I just said that the joke wasn't funny.

[aramike]

quote:

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Originally posted by Menchise:

Jaguar, if you're referring to me as thought police (note that I said "if"), then I must say that I haven't tried to censor anything. I just said that the joke wasn't funny.

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He wasn't referring to you, although he shouldn't have said it in the first place.

[Steve Schacher]

I'm not worthy...

Menchise, I think he was referring to Akuma's post:

quote:

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Sorry, I don't really find this funny at all. I don't mean to be a kill joy but it's very violent in thought don't you think?

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I always find your posts reasonable for the points of view expressed. I don't necessarily agree with them, but then where's the fun in that?

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: Steve Schacher ]

[aramike]

Steve, check your private messages.

[Steve Schacher]

Replied.

[aramike]

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Schacher:

Replied.

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Thanks, Steve. I, too, have replied. Are you going to be on a bit longer?

[Steve Schacher]

Yes.

[Cmdr Nova]

quote:

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A lot of people are going to find a lot of things offensive over the next few years. I hope that some of you found the destruction of four airliners, two office buildings, and all the occupants and rescuers offensive as well.

The youth of the world have been coddled in the last 25 years to believe that feelings and self esteem are more important than thinking and accomplishment. Reality is hitting like a slap in the face. The world is not always a happy, peaceful place, and wanting it to be so does not make it so. How many times will you let yourself be slapped in the face before you raise your hand to stop the next blow, as offensive as that action may be?

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Perfect Steve. Hell, I'm only 14. I believe that we do need to take action. The thing is, I feel for the people, and I think that the so-called "war" we will fight will have to be a thought-out, war, of intelligence. Success for me, should be the amount of innocent lives saved, and/or not lost on any side.

I say the people of Afghanistan need to be liberated from the Taliban, and helped out by America, the same way that Germany was helped by the Allies, after World War II (sans the involvement of a communist nation).

"....freedom will be defended." Afghans have nearly no freedom, for the Taliban has stripped them of all their rights. Why don't we defend their freedom? There was a CNN Report in August (transcript here) that left me in disbelief about how the Taliban was leaving the people of their nation. Parts of Kabul are still in ruins after the civil wars of Afghanistan years ago, and since the Taliban hasn't helped much, they resort to using a Football stadium, paid for by the international community, as a place to hold executions. And seeing pictures of a man, whose skin was flayed, for he was speaking out against the Taliban.

I see that Ep5 gets it (innocent lives vs. foolsih, not thought out plan of revenge), as well.

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Finally, I'll say that pic isn't funny, and is offensive. Second, jokes of that kind of matter are too, offensive to me. I can differentiate between reality and games, but this is the dealings of life or death of thousands.

I'm a deep thinker, who at least tries to understand (though I'm only 14 and am supposedly "young and naive"). Don't fuel the fire of ignorance. Please.

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: Cmdr Nova ]

[Steve Schacher]

Nova,

You are indeed more aware than I was at your age.

I share your sentiments about the Afghan people, but I'm concerned that the world looks to the USA to solve their problems, and then bites the hand that feeds them. Why is it the USA's obligation to help the people of Afghanistan when there are so many other prosperous countries around the world, some in Afghanistan's back yard?

Many people rightly claim that we have our own starving, homeless, jobless people right here, yet they also say that we have to help the suffering people of other countries as well. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't, while the other countries sit back and bank the money that they should be spending instead of us.

And then they bomb us and call us decadent, and then they say that we had it coming and that it was our own fault.

It's enough to make my brain hurt, trying to keep it all straight.

[aramike]

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Schacher:

Nova,

You are indeed more aware than I was at your age.

I share your sentiments about the Afghan people, but I'm concerned that the world looks to the USA to solve their problems, and then bites the hand that feeds them. Why is it the USA's obligation to help the people of Afghanistan when there are so many other prosperous countries around the world, some in Afghanistan's back yard?

Many people rightly claim that we have our own starving, homeless, jobless people right here, yet they also say that we have to help the suffering people of other countries as well. We're damned if we do and damned if we don't, while the other countries sit back and bank the money that they should be spending instead of us.

And then they bomb us and call us decadent, and then they say that we had it coming and that it was our own fault.

It's enough to make my brain hurt, trying to keep it all straight.

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I couldn't agree more.

[Menchise]

Heh. Now I've seen it all: Two theatres of war on the same front (three if you include the rumours of 'unfinished business' in Iraq).

Anyway, going off topic for a bit (sort of), I don't expect America to solve the problems of other nations, but I do expect America to stop causing and/or contributing to problems that affect other nations.

By the way, I wasn't specifically referring to the Taliban issue.

[aramike]

quote:

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Originally posted by Menchise:

Heh. Now I've seen it all: Two theatres of war on the same front (three if you include the rumours of 'unfinished business' in Iraq).

Anyway, going off topic for a bit (sort of), I don't expect America to solve the problems of other nations, but I do expect America to stop causing and/or contributing to problems that affect other nations.

By the way, I wasn't specifically referring to the Taliban issue.

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What are we doing to cause problems? Last I checked, we were only helping friends. If that doesn't fit the agenda of other political states, so be it. America is NOT isolationist.

Oh, and Isreal wouldn't need such weaponry if they weren't the target of genocide. So maybe the "other" nations should step up and do what is RIGHT for once. We've tried. They've failed to respond in kind. Thousands of innocent people are dead.

That's the world we live in. How come you ALWAYS blame America for the actions of the rest of the world?

[Guest]

Well, the picture to me was amusing, and I found it quite funny. So sorry that some of you didn't get it. This is war, and sometimes you must laugh in order not to cry.

These are very serious times, Terrorists are bent on OUR destruction and will use ANY means possible to see that goal.

THEY WANT TO KILL YOU, they want to burn your house, they want to kill your family, They want nothing less then our total destruction.

They killed over 6000 innocent men, women and children, with our own private jetliners. There was no negotiation, there was just DEATH and destruction.

These terrorists must be responded to in the only language they understand. Thier fear of us must become stronger then their hatred for us. This may offend many, but it is the truth. I am not a warmonger, I was in the military, I know what it feels like to be a soldier and not know what tomorrow might bring.

These terrorists must be brought to justice, or justice must be brought to them. Innocents will die, there is no getting away from that, but many more will die due to these terrorists unless we do something and do it NOW!!

I will say it again, and hopefully will be understood, war is hell, and sometimes you must make yourself laugh, because otherwise you will cry. I almost lost my cousin in that attack, and some aquaintances WERE killed in that attack. They had done nothing wrong, they did not deserve to die, but that is what the terrorists want. FOR US ALL TO DIE, or become like the Taliban.

This may offend some of you as well, but I will say it anyway. The TALIBAN MUST BE DESTROYED, the EL QUAIDA MUST BE DETROYED, Ossama Bin Laden MUST BE DESTROYED!!! The Afghani people are going to suffer in the short term while we do this, but in the long run, they will profit from it.

[Cmdr Jeffery Eu]

Jaguar, I really don't think you should be that blatant in your last post especially this part

quote:

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This may offend some of you as well, but I will say it anyway. The TALIBAN MUST BE DESTROYED, the EL QUAIDA MUST BE DETROYED, Ossama Bin Laden MUST BE DESTROYED!!! The Afghani people are going to suffer in the short term while we do this, but in the long run, they will profit from it.

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Hey. I'm just as horrified as you over this unreasonable and unjustifiable attacks over in the US but why get so worked up?

I believe that you, aramike, menchise and all the rest have drawn your battlelines from that anyone reading the posts on this thread and the other one can see. So what if others disagree with you, so what if they believe your opinions are wrong. If you think you're right say your piece and forget about the rest. There is no absolute need to shout it out from the "roof tops".

One other thing, the US is not obligated to help out in other parts of the world no matter what the heads and the politicians of both the US and other nations say.

But neverthelesss, the US did give aid to other nations, maybe for their own gains and maybe just out of kindness of their hearts, but if the other nations don't feel grateful about it then just retract the aid.

This is my personal believe, terrorism should not be condoned, killing innocent people are an outrage to our societal morals, yes , the US must take action, but maybe, just maybe instead of doing this by yourselves, the US Government should confer with other allied nations before starting an all out war.

Hey, we're all living on the same planet and

making unilateral decisions like attacking Afghanistan will not benefit anyone at all least of all the US if it turns out to be not just war against terrorists but a World War.

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: Cmdr Jeffery Eu ]

[Menchise]

quote:

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I believe that you, aramike, menchise and all the rest have drawn your battlelines

from reading the posts on this thread and the other one. So what if others disagree with you, so what if they believe your opinions are wrong. If you think you're right say your piece and forget about the rest. There is no absolute need to shout it out from the "roof tops".

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This isn't a battle, it's a debate (I think). Debates consist of rebuttals and counter-rebuttals.

By the way, I'm gonna stop posting replies in this thread (preferably). If anyone here wants to read about my opinion (can't imagine why ) it's in the other thread.

[Guest Macon De'Witt]

I thought it was funny as hell personally, but I supose the part of us that finds comfort in macabe hummour will never quite be in ballance with the part of us that knows its kind of sick to do so.

Durring the American revolution "Yankee Doodle" was originaly a Brit song made to shame us and we took it on as a badge of honor, I supose at the time some folks didn't find that funny

Durring the Gulf war I remember the boat being covered with cartoons like "I'd fly a 1000 miles to smoke a cammel" and yet to my knowledge no camels were harmed durring the filming of the gulf war (Though a few guys got romanticly involved with camels , but thats another story)

I also don't think its unreasnable to predict that we will indeed be droping bombs on Afganastan in the future their goverment and ours don't seem to be agreeing on their responsability in this tragedy so I don't think the photo is in poor taste.

Lastly I'm also the kid who would wreck his bike, be bloody head to toe, and still laugh at my own stupidity. So you may find my sense of humour a bit off beat but its not any harsher on others then it is on myself.

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Akuma Minako:

Sorry, I don't really find this funny at all. I don't mean to be a kill joy but it's very violent in thought don't you think?

Last forum people wanted to bomb my ancestors (The chinese thank you very much), and now you want to bomb people in afgahanastan because of terrorists?

Personally I'd like to see this all resolved peacefully. SC please lockdown this topic. I'm very unimpressed.

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You have GOT to be kidding me!

wtf, just because a national tragedy has occured, so now all of a sudden everything is off limits?!?!?

Where were YOU when ALL the innocent people in the Middle East, Africa, Bosnia, Yugoslavia etc were being killed? That didn't stop any such posts, jokes, propaganda etc, did it? Of course not. Just because it has happened AT HOME, all of a sudden its off limits? When those AMERICAN TERRORISTS blew up a fed building in Oklahoma, why wasn't there such a furor? A LOT of people died too. Just because 6000+ have died in the WTC tragedy, doesn't make it any more graver than the 200+ who died in Oklahoma. ONE PERSON dying at the hands of a terrorist, being American or foreign, is ONE PERSON TOO MANY. Period.

And I didn't see the US going after all those White supremacist groups, who ARE, in fact, terrorists of a kind. Why? Because they are protected by free speech?

Osama bin Laden is a terrorist. He deserves to die. Period. And in my book, anything that drives home THAT POINT (e.g. that pic that started this thread), is ON TOPIC.

Shit like this makes me sick. I mean, seriously. We ALL lost friends too you know.

I can't find 7 of 9 people I know quite well in NY.

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[Akuma Minako]

quote:

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I thought it was funny as hell personally, but I supose the part of us that finds comfort in macabe hummour will never quite be in ballance with the part of us that knows its kind of sick to do so.

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Hey I read Johonny the Homicidal Maniac for heavens sake! That's Macabre humor if there ever was one but that is not real life... Look, Blades talked some sense into me and he's very right. There's going to be way more than this. There's gonna be a hell of a lot more than this. And it's probably going to be much worse.

quote:

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Where were YOU when ALL the innocent people in the Middle East, Africa, Bosnia, Yugoslavia etc were being killed? That didn't stop any such posts, jokes, propaganda etc, did it? Of course not. Just because it has happened AT HOME, all of a sudden its off limits? When those AMERICAN TERRORISTS blew up a fed building in Oklahoma, why wasn't there such a furor? A LOT of people died too. Just because 6000+ have died in the WTC tragedy, doesn't make it any more graver than the 200+ who died in Oklahoma. ONE PERSON dying at the hands of a terrorist, being American or foreign, is ONE PERSON TOO MANY. Period.

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Don't you think I know that? Where was I? I was a kid! I didn't see any of that because I was out playing with my friends in my nieve ignorance! This is the FIRST terrorist act I've seen okay? This is the first. I know it dosen't matter where it it. I know one person is too many but I'VE NEVER SEEN any other acts of war such as this. I've been pretty secluded in my life from the media because my parents wouldn't let me see this kind of stuff. So now I'm 19 and I have the choice...

Just happens I turned on the t.v. just when the second plane crashed into the building. You're right when you say that one person is too many. That's true, okay?

quote:

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Personally I'd like to see this all resolved peacefully. SC please lockdown this topic. I'm very unimpressed.

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Yeah, okay...In my rage I asked that. I take it back. I didn't mean it. I was very overwhelmed and I've been dealing with this I guess badly. I didn't know anyone who worked in the WTC building or the Pentagon but Dammit I felt what they were going through. I couldn't imagine anything worse!

[Steve Schacher]

My aunt worked in the WTC (not the towers), but she was expecting a computer delivery that day so she went to her Jersey office instead.

[Guest]

I cannot believe the amount of coincidences that day that kept people away from those buildings. My cousins Office was totally destroyed, it was on the 54th floor of the south tower, and we had no clue where he was.

Turns out that his girlfriend had surprised him 2 days before with tickets to france, and they left the day before!! He finally called 2 days after, to let us know where he was, but he had lost 2 of his employees in the attack.

Many people were saved due to strange coincidences, and I find that very fascinating.

[Fendi]

Here is another coincidence. Jackie Chan was supposed to shoot a scene there on that very day in the WTC. But because of scripting problems the shoot had to be delayed for a day. This man is probably the luckiest guy ever. After so many near death from stunts going wrong ranging from falling off bridges, hovercraft, buildings, 30 feet poles and other stupid stunts you would've thought that his luck would run out. I believe Jackie Chan should be sent to recover Osama and kick his a$$!

GO JACKIE!!

p.s.

I got this information from my brother who lives in Australia

[aramike]

quote:

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This isn't a battle, it's a debate (I think). Debates consist of rebuttals and counter-rebuttals.

By the way, I'm gonna stop posting replies in this thread (preferably). If anyone here wants to read about my opinion (can't imagine why ) it's in the other thread.

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Agreed.