Microsoft

[me]

My last post was not in depth enough.

So this one shall go into greater detail, the BIOS is the code required for the basic operations of the computer. To start it in other words, once the OS starts to load IT takes over. Refering back to my earlier example (the 486 and win95), now do the same with a p4 2gig machine, you will get the EXACT same results. Even if win95 is to old of Technology for you Aramike, we can move it up to 98, boot off the CD(Win98 is bootable CD, 95 is not), what the computer does is to create a RAM drive(a: ) , it then pushes your Normal floppy to b:, copies several files to this RAM drive(including cd-driver, and MSCDEX.exe). At this point it starts to boot off the RAM drive, loading CD-driver and mscdex.exe as it boots. As you can see by this example even with the BIOS support the OS STILL Needs a driver.

Now the NT Kernel is a different animal entirely. The reason win98 creates a RAM drive like that is due to a dos Limitation with boot devices. The NT kernel CAN boot off the CD. All that this means However is that the OS KNOWS how to talk to that Hardware. I don't care if you want to call it a driver or not, but that is what it is, a driver.

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A program that controls a device. Every device, whether it be a printer, disk drive, or keyboard, must have a driver program. Many drivers, such as the keyboard driver, come with the operating system. For other devices, you may need to load a new driver when you connect the device to your computer. In DOS systems, drivers are files with a.SYS extension. In Windows environments, drivers often have a.DRV extension.

A driver acts like a translator between the device and programs that use the device. Each device has its own set of specialized commands that only its driver knows. In contrast, most programs access devices by using generic commands. The driver, therefore, accepts generic commands from a program and then translates them into specialized commands for the device. Source

http://www.webopedia.com

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Just so that we have a Standardized definition of a Driver. Now granted this is a somewhat simplified definition, but it gets the point across. Even with the BIOS support the OS Needs to know the "Language" that the device uses. In other words, a DRIVER. Now, just because you do not SEE a driver, or have to LOAD a driver, it IS still there. Even when it is Part of the Kernel.

Now does this clear things up?

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Melcar ]

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Melcar ]

[aramike]

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Just so that we have a Standardized definition of a Driver. Now granted this is a somewhat simplified definition, but it gets the point across. Even with the BIOS support the OS Needs to know the "Language" that the device uses. In other words, a DRIVER. Now, just because you do not SEE a driver, or have to LOAD a driver, it IS still there. Even when it is Part of the Kernel.

Now does this clear things up?

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OK, now we're heading into semantics. Of course a drive could never work unless its contents can be decoded. However, what we're debating is Windows driver issues.

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Even if win95 is to old of Technology for you Aramike, we can move it up to 98, boot off the CD(Win98 is bootable CD, 95 is not), what the computer does is to create a RAM drive(a , it then pushes your Normal floppy to b:, copies several files to this RAM drive(including cd-driver, and MSCDEX.exe). At this point it starts to boot off the RAM drive, loading CD-driver and mscdex.exe as it boots. As you can see by this example even with the BIOS support the OS STILL Needs a driver.

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That's what I disagree with. On newer computers, I can have *NO* Windows presence and still be able to boot from CD ROM, because the controllers are on BIOS.

[me]

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That's what I disagree with. On newer computers, I can have *NO* Windows presence and still be able to boot from CD ROM, because the controllers are on BIOS.

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As I said, this is for the Win95/Win98 Kernel, Linux, Unix, and the NT Kernel handle things slightly differently.

The BIOS Has instructions for the Start up operation of the computer. The Fact remains though that the BIOS does NOT enable the OS to speak to the cd-drive, that is the function of the Driver, whether it is incorperated into the Kernel or not.

Now the statements that brought this up:

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A recent example is the volume of trouble that developers encountered when they tried to write DVD drivers for Linux by reverse engineering the Windows drivers. The other half of the story is that DVD manufacturers only develop device drivers for Windows, which doesn't leave Linux programmers much of a choice.

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Now I know you don't know what you're talking about. A DVD drive doesn't USE drivers, just like a floppy drive, a normal CD drive, etc.

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You were saying this was Irrelevant, well it is, but not because a DVD drive doesn't use a driver. It is irrelevant because it is up to the Manufacturer to either Provide their hardware specs for the development of a driver, or to develop their own driver. If they choose not to provide drivers for a specific platform, that is the choice of the manufacturer.

If Menchise really wants to get DVD support for Linux, then what he really needs to do is Contact his friends, and the Linux community, and have them start pointing out to the DVD manufacturers how much they would like to be able to do this with linux. If enough people start complaining about Wanting the Linux support the manufacturers will either have their Dev teams develop the software, or they will release their specs to the Linux community and tell them to develop their own. The great thing about Capitalism, companies are not forced to develop for any and every platform out there. They use their resources to where they feel it would return the most profit. Hence, Windows, it has a larger install base. The only time this would be a problem would be if Microsoft Had PRESSURED them to develop strictly for Windows. Even exclusive deals are not a problem, unless one company or another are pressured into it.

As far as the Reverse Engineering. Well, if the materials are copyrighted, or patented...

[aramike]

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The BIOS Has instructions for the Start up operation of the computer. The Fact remains though that the BIOS does NOT enable the OS to speak to the cd-drive, that is the function of the Driver, whether it is incorperated into the Kernel or not.

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That's the thing right there -- the OS isn't REQUIRED to speak to the drive, the software reading from the drive is, especially on a "loose-kernel" OS that Menchise is talking about.

[Menchise]