What's the point...

[Simparadox]

...of cheating? I just happened to stumble onto this article at AVault that looks into why people cheat and whether or not it's okay. It's an interesting read, and for those of you who don't feel like clicking a link I've quoted the whole thing (watch out, it's long):

Told ya it was long.

Now, I have nothing against cheating in single player games. If designers feel they can really put methods of cheating into a game without comprimising their original vision of what the game should be than so be it. On the other hand, I dislike cheaters. People who feel that, for one reason or another, they need to take advantage of these cheats. There are some legitimate uses other than debugging (a friend of mine likes to play through a game once on his own and then use cheats to find what he missed, for example), but I almost never feel justified in cheating at a game.

After all, isn't playing a game about the challenge it provides? Where's the fun if there's no challenge at all? The God mode found in a lot of FPS games particularly annoys me. Without the challenge of combat the game's reduced to a banal trek through a (hopefully) nice looking maze. And even worse, without the challenge the amount of time you'll enjoy the game (if you enjoy it at all) is greatly reduced and there's almost no reason to go back for more.

Even worse is when people cheat at games that don't require skill. Diablo II, for instance. Where's the advantage to cheating? Aren't you just admitting that the game's repetitive gameplay bores you. And if so, why do you care if about making a powerful character?

As a good example, I recently got into a somewhat heated argument with a friend of mine of the cheating persuasion regarding Grand Theft Auto III for Playstation 2. Now, I don't know how many of you either have Playstation 2's for follow console gaming news, but GTA3 has gotten nothing but rave reviews. And it deserves them. I'm the kind of PC gamer who scoffs at the simplicity and shallowness of console games. Very few of them draw me (Gran Turismo and Metal Gear Solid 2 being the most recent), but GTA3 is one of those that managed to. This is a great "crime simulator" and has more depth than most PC games I've played. My friend used cheats to unlock every weapon, get an insane amount of money, and get a tank. After an hour he claimed he was bored of the game, without ever having played any of the missions, because he felt like there was nothing left to do.

How many people have completely missed out on awesome games because they skip through the most challenge and best parts? That's what bothers me about cheating.

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

EDIT: Sorry, I wasn't sure whether it was better to post the whole thing or just link. Won't make that mistake in the future.

[ 12-29-2001: Message edited by: Simparadox ]

[Charles Lindsey]

I'll bite.

quote:

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After all, isn't playing a game about the challenge it provides? Where's the fun if there's no challenge at all?

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Where is the fun if the challenge is mind numbing?

I present the infamous "Cat Moustache" puzzle in a certain Sierra game. I forget which one because I haven't played it. I have read several reviewers complaining about that particular puzzle. I have read the solution to the puzzle and I feel the reviewers are right. The solution made no sense whatsoever and I can see someone turning to a walkthrough to get past it.

Other Sierra games I.E. King's Quest and Space Quest which I did play the old DOS ones also had just really mind numbing challenges. So mind numbing they ceased to be fun. I have used walkthroughs on those before and enjoyed the game.

Thief was great. I played it the whole way through without a moments trouble. There were puzzles that had to be solved yet there was skill involved as well.

Thief II I have stalled in. The Bank level is hard. Not a big puzzle yet but difficult and time consuming. I won't cheat on this yet 'casue I know what to do just not how to do it yet. I need to pick this back up because it's fun.

BCM I won't cheat in cause it's far too much fun to repair a nearly destroyed ship. I have no idea why I like that aspect but I do.

But look at how may people cry over the ACM. Derek, as intelligent as he is, made some really mind numbing scenarios. Then he wonders when people cry.

Warzone 2100 is a different matter. I'm at a level where the bad guuys have better equipment than I do. Not even my guys with ranks (advanced a bit) survive very long. Winning this level will be a matter of me building enough inferior units to beat their superior units. That one is tough and I'll figure it out. Maybe. I may get overwhelmed.

I suppose what I am saying is that I do like a good challenging game. But when the designers have exceeded my level of expertise or intelligence or problem solving ability and it ceases to be fun and I will resort to a cheat and/or walkthrough so that I may continue to have fun.

Multiplay cheats would be bad though.

[Menchise]

quote:

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I present the infamous "Cat Moustache" puzzle in a certain Sierra game. I forget which one because I haven't played it. I have read several reviewers complaining about that particular puzzle. I have read the solution to the puzzle and I feel the reviewers are right. The solution made no sense whatsoever and I can see someone turning to a walkthrough to get past it.

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The moustache puzzle was in Gabriel Knight 3.

There are two types of challenging puzzles:

1) the type of puzzle that requires logic, imagination in the context of the role you're playing, or some such wonderful thing (the good puzzles).

2) the type of puzzle that requires illogical thought, the imagination of a Martian from Jupiter, or random guessing because the solution is so ridiculous (the bad puzzles).

The moustache puzzle in Gabriel Knight 3 was the second type.

[ 12-28-2001: Message edited by: Menchise ]

[Charles Lindsey]

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The only reason why it was so hard to solve was because it was so stupid.

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Therefore, it was mind numbing complex.

[Menchise]

Charles, I just edited my previous post.

[Charles Lindsey]

quote:

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I just edited my previous post.

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Which is why I hardly ever edit my own posts anymore. I can't remember what you said. You changed the entire content of your post.

Your #1 is ok; but even those can be so difficult to solve one must rely on a cheat/walkthrough to further your position in the game.

Your #2 is what is ludicrous. People should be flogged for presenting that type of puzzle.

Whether or not a puzzle is logical does not enter into this discussion. (I don't think)

Should one cheat?

My complex puzzle point is one reason people may choose to cheat or use a walkthrough.

[GREG MILLER]

Heh, I got my wife a Nancy Drew Mystery game for her PC. (She like mystery games.) We both had the day off on the 26th, she spent the day playing, I was reloading windows on my machine. As soon as she got stuck, she asked me if the game came with a start sheet. I found one, and she read it, which didn't offer much help as she was pretty much past it. Then I heard her whine, "Tex Murphy at least gives you hints, this is hard." After that it was off to the internet for "hints". After a few print outs, she resumed game play, and finished the game by 8pm. Now on the box, it states there is 20 hours of game play, and I don't think she even got in 10. Now I will admit, I was alittle upset, as I bought the game for her to enjoy and now she is done with it. Oh well, her birthday is in Feburary, so now I can by the rest of the Nancy Drew series, and maybe even disconnect her modem while she plays. (Yea, that will fly real well. )

[Simparadox]

quote:

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Originally posted by Charles Lindsey:

I'll bite.

I present the infamous "Cat Moustache" puzzle in a certain Sierra game. I forget which one because I haven't played it. I have read several reviewers complaining about that particular puzzle. I have read the solution to the puzzle and I feel the reviewers are right. The solution made no sense whatsoever and I can see someone turning to a walkthrough to get past it.

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Walkthroughs don't bother me. I don't use them, but that's probably just because I play very few adventure games. When you use a walkthrough you're still playing the game as it's intended to be played, but you're getting some help with a particularly difficult part of it. If, on the other hand, you used a cheat to simply skip over a puzzle then you'd be missing out on part of the game. Sure, the walkthrough takes out a significant part of the challenge and I don't think I'd have much respect for someone who's first action after buying a new game is to get a walkthrough, but at least you're not totally eliminating a part of the game that the developer spent time creating.

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I suppose what I am saying is that I do like a good challenging game. But when the designers have exceeded my level of expertise or intelligence or problem solving ability and it ceases to be fun and I will resort to a cheat and/or walkthrough so that I may continue to have fun.

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That's understandable. The few adventure games I've played have all had at least one moment where I've simply had to walk away in frustration. That's part of the reason I don't play adventure games - sooner or later most of them fail to challenge on any sane or logical level. When it comes to games that are devoid of "puzzles", though, I still don't see cheating as the best option.

Then again, I guess "to cheat or not to cheat" is basically a matter of personal opinion. I generally don't have the greatest amount of respect for people who always cheat or cheat because they simply lack the skill or intelligence to move on, but it's their choice.

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Multiplay cheats would be bad though.

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Yeah, I think everyone can agree on that.