Mandatory Military / Civil Service

[Menchise]

Well, I do now.

[Guest Grayfox]

and without the defenders, any joe with a gun can come in and take what the workers labored so hard to produce.

unless you were in the old USSR.... then the military took what they wanted and shafted the workers...didnt one S in USSR stand for socialist? people standing in outrageous lines for bread, and shoes, and basic necessities while the military and politburo members lived in phat dachas and gorged themselves on what the workers produced... Our homeless lived better than the average worker over there.

eh but the old regime is out, communism is gone (so they say) and ole russia is a democracy now... have things changed all that much over there?

as for serving while young... im for it. if anything it will install a sense of discipline and self worth... perhaps even a sense of teamwork. and if done at a young age (18 or so) it can have beneficial results.

[ 05-08-2002, 10:26: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

[Guest]

Spaeking of Russia,

My boss just came back from there.

Capitalism has taken hold, he said the change is so apparent that it is unreal.

Transportation is still a problem, the mafia still controls it, but it is getting much better. The people are living better, the grocery stores are full, he said the only thing that they didn't have in the grocery stores now is fresh fruit, and only because of the transportation.

He said that Russia is like China 10 years ago, we are going to open a factory in Russia in the next year or so.

The Russian people are not up to par with say Mexico, but they will be there within the decade.

Capitalism and all its wonders is taking hold, it will lift all boats and it will last if it's not screwed with.

[Lotharr]

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about Gray Fox....I don't know what the best system is...but if your people develop "good" skills and lessons your society improves.

And I promise all of you that college education is at the front of Army priorities for the enlisted soldiers these days. Tons of programs to stimulate this. To make E-7 (sergeant first class....first level of being a Senior Non-Commissioned Officer) they want a 2yr degree. 4 is better. So a lot of folks are like "why the hell am I (as an E-7) getting paid less than a brand new LT when I have the same education level but a TON more experience."

Anyway...it's not for every one but that is just a single point. I'll have been a sergeant for a year but I know that I helped at least two young people to get their priorities in order. Cause honestly these two don't know what they want but at least they can do this while they figure it out.

For people who have had a terrible example when they were young, a program like this could be amazing. But I don't think all should go Army, there are a bunch of ways to help one's nation while being forced to grow as an individual and meet people. And I do mean forced some people need a giant kick in the A*S

[ 05-08-2002, 18:03: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

[Menchise]

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and without the defenders, any joe with a gun can come in and take what the workers labored so hard to produce.

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That is why soldiers as well as workers have citizenship and voting rights.

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as for serving while young... im for it. if anything it will install a sense of discipline and self worth... perhaps even a sense of teamwork.

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...just like any other job that involves working in groups.

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The Russian people are not up to par with say Mexico, but they will be there within the decade.

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Is that supposed to be good news? Mexico is in bad shape, which is why so many cross the border.

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Capitalism and all its wonders is taking hold, it will lift all boats and it will last if it's not screwed with.

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Hey Jag, how's Argentina these days? How about Serbia, Turkey, Zimbabwe, and the Phillipines? Let's not forget India (the world's largest capitalist 'democracy', where millions live in urban slums).

*sigh* Here we go again.

[Raven]

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But I don't think all should go Army, there are a bunch of ways to help one's nation while being forced to grow as an individual and meet people. And I do mean forced some people need a giant kick in the A*S

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If by this you mean military service of some type, I strongly disagree. Let us ignore for a moment all of the jokers in the world that I wouldnÔÇÖt want anywhere near me in anything resembling a live fire exercise, all of the scum should be executed or exiled, all of the other scum that really isnÔÇÖt worth bothering about, AND every other distasteful individual who really doesnÔÇÖt belong in the military. Forget about them. Let us instead consider those individuals who are a benefit to our society but are totally unwilling to join the military. How many scientists, doctors, lawyers, professors, business owners, and rich bastards would leave the country rather then be subject to a universal draft (and basically that is what it would be) or have there children subject to such. It would result in a catastrophe of an unparalleled sort. With the exodus of all of these people (and there would be no way to stop it unless the government forced them to remain, a major rights violation if I ever heard of one) would go there skill, there experience, and there money. Did I forget to mention that any halfway competent stock owner would get there money out of the market as fast as they could? I know I would. We are talking about a major depression here the likes of which we have never had before.

Oh, one other thing, unlike the military service for citizenship scenario, the universal draft scenario runs into one little problem. If it is to be a universal draft then it would involve drafting women, something that most people would be against. This isnÔÇÖt so hard to solve as my hypothetical exodus, simply exclude women from the requirement. Sure, its sexist as hell, but I'm certainly not complaining.

[Guest Grayfox]

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as for serving while young... im for it. if anything it will install a sense of discipline and self worth... perhaps even a sense of teamwork.

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...just like any other job that involves working in groups.

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exactly what color is the sky on the planet you live on?

these people either work together or they die. period. odds are on most jobs if the guy next to you screws up, you wont buy the farm. theres a MUCH closer sense of teamwork... a sort of brotherhood, with the men and women whos lives depend on eachother... much like police or the fire depratment... or the "state" agencies as you would call them.

i seriously doubt if you were sitting in your little cubicle and the guy next to you screws up, that your boss would come in and shoot the both of oyu in the head.

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Hey Jag, how's Argentina these days? How about Serbia, Turkey, Zimbabwe, and the Phillipines? Let's not forget India (the world's largest capitalist 'democracy', where millions live in urban slums).

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for that matter how is it where you live??? hmmm??? you seem to be doing well in a capitalist system.

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[Menchise]

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exactly what color is the sky on the planet you live on?

these people either work together or they die. period. odds are on most jobs if the guy next to you screws up, you wont buy the farm. theres a MUCH closer sense of teamwork... a sort of brotherhood, with the men and women whos lives depend on eachother... much like police or the fire depratment... or the "state" agencies as you would call them.

i seriously doubt if you were sitting in your little cubicle and the guy next to you screws up, that your boss would come in and shoot the both of oyu in the head.

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If that's what you meant, then that's what you should write; I am not a mindreader.

My point is that a sense of teamwork does not need to be set within a life or death situation in order for it to stick.

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for that matter how is it where you live??? hmmm??? you seem to be doing well in a capitalist system.

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Yes I am. So what?

[Lotharr]

I really like this place....I really do. You all make me laugh like hell (in a good way) all the time and I thank you.

No DL I was talking in a civil or military way...and if your good with computers or whatever you could work for some organization in that way....or whatever. But the work would have to be for very low pay and the people have to live in a communal situation. These people also should represent the nation's various minority groups in a balanced way. So out of 100 people the %'s will be balanced to reflect that of the over all nation so everyone gets to know everyone else. And these people have to be supervised by a multi ethnic crew of responsible adults.....

How does that strike you?

And your right we are not ready to share the showers so some modifications would be required....I could talk all day long about how they do it in the Army and you would probably be offended.

[Guest Grayfox]

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Originally posted by Menchise:

If that's what you meant, then that's what you should write; I am not a mindreader.

My point is that a sense of teamwork does not need to be set within a life or death situation in order for it to stick.

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if you had any clue about the discussion then you would know that thats what i meant. but alas i cant expect everyone to "read minds". however the bond that is formed is alot closer than the one shared by the worker... unless like i said before you were a firefighter or police.

however to simplify it further, most... no ill give the benefit of the doubt and say half the people who arent in a life or death teamwork environment tend to slacken off the teamwork aspect of the job after theyve left it for awhile, while those that are, that teamwork aspect lasts forever... maybe its something exclusive to high danger job fields i.e. police, FD, military (and not even all the military)??? who knows.

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for that matter how is it where you live??? hmmm??? you seem to be doing well in a capitalist system.

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Yes I am. So what?

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if you dont get the meaning of my question, then nevermind... i forgot your not a mind reader, and i dont feel like drawing a map.

'nuff said

[ 05-09-2002, 16:00: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

[Menchise]

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if you had any clue about the discussion then you would know that thats what i meant. but alas i cant expect everyone to "read minds".

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I was expressing my annoyance at your crack about the colour of the sky where I live.

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however the bond that is formed is alot closer than the one shared by the worker... unless like i said before you were a firefighter or police.

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The bond is a manifestation of comradeship, not a manifestation of teamwork. Teamwork is based on a common cause or interest, without which a team cannot exist.

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however to simplify it further, most... no ill give the benefit of the doubt and say half the people who arent in a life or death teamwork environment tend to slacken off the teamwork aspect of the job after theyve left it for awhile, while those that are, that teamwork aspect lasts forever... maybe its something exclusive to high danger job fields i.e. police, FD, military (and not even all the military)??? who knows.

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A sense of teamwork does not slacken off over time. That's like saying that people who oversleep tend to go blind. Developing a sense of teamwork is like learning how to ride a bicycle: you retain the skill even if you haven't used it for years.

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if you dont get the meaning of my question, then nevermind... i forgot your not a mind reader, and i dont feel like drawing a map.

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OK, I'll make an assumption about what that question was supposed to mean and then answer it.

My situation in itself is irrelevant. I am not the system. For example, the Sultan of Brunei is the second richest man in the world, but that does not mean that everyone else on Brunei is a billionaire.

[ 05-10-2002, 04:19: Message edited by: Menchise ]

[Raven]

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No DL I was talking in a civil or military way...and if your good with computers or whatever you could work for some organization in that way....or whatever. But the work would have to be for very low pay and the people have to live in a communal situation. These people also should represent the nation's various minority groups in a balanced way. So out of 100 people the %'s will be balanced to reflect that of the over all nation so everyone gets to know everyone else. And these people have to be supervised by a multi ethnic crew of responsible adults.....

How does that strike you?

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I'm not all that clear on what youÔÇÖre trying to suggest, or at least I hope I'm not. As far as I can tell what your saying is that everyone should be shipped off to small camps where they are forced to work for minimal pay. This is awful, it would be the biggest rights violation since, well, it would be the biggest ever. It would be socialism of the worst kind, workers would be (at least for however long they were in the camps) virtual slaves. Then, of course, we have the political fallout. Anyone who had a hand in passing a bill to cause this wouldnÔÇÖt have a prayer for reelection and whatever party originally suggested it would suffer massively. Then, of course, we would have an exodus similar to the one I described earlier as talented individuals decided that they did not want to waste a couple of years of there lives being slaves to the system.

Correct me if I made any errors interpreting your rather brief suggestion.

[Lotharr]

Interesting points.

I just hate to see the social fragmentation and racial inequities that I see today. There is no sense of community in my opinion. I would like to see that change. And the only real way to do that, in my opinion, is to get people out of their comfort zones and meet the neighbors.

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I'm not all that clear on what you’re trying to suggest, or at least I hope I'm not. As far as I can tell what your saying is that everyone should be shipped off to small camps where they are forced to work for minimal pay. This is awful, it would be the biggest rights violation since, well, it would be the biggest ever. It would be socialism of the worst kind, workers would be (at least for however long they were in the camps) virtual slaves. Then, of course, we have the political fallout. Anyone who had a hand in passing a bill to cause this wouldn’t have a prayer for reelection and whatever party originally suggested it would suffer massively. Then, of course, we would have an exodus similar to the one I described earlier as talented individuals decided that they did not want to waste a couple of years of there lives being slaves to the system.

Correct me if I made any errors interpreting your rather brief suggestion.

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A "camp" could be a decent apartment building with shared bathrooms...eating area's etc. The cost of these facilities could be covered by having these people work in industries where they have a previous interest and aptitude. But yes the pay would be low because the real intent would be to have people learn how to live together in a safe and thought provoking environment. You can even have in-house leaders that, with time and skill, could take over positions of responsibility. I could go on and on with ideas. And I hope this doesn't sound too utopian because with dedication anything is possible.

Political fallout -- Always

Loss of talented people -- Heh heh the rich kids who's parents think they need to go to Harvard now! I don't much care about them really (trust me they will be ok)...but they run the country...soooo....like everything else they would get a waiver of some kind I bet.

I don't know just an idea....I just hate to see what my country has become and I want to brain storm ideas to fix it.

Necessity brings change as far as I'm concerned. Until there is some need, things won't change anyway.

I just despise the idea that any of my country’s citizens can be any thing less then their potential. Because everything that surrounds them says they have no potential or not a good investment. Just looking for a way to break the cycle.

Are we too have any meeting of the mind on this or am I just way off base in your opinion?

[Raven]

I have to agree about the social fragmentation and especially the racial inequities (at least to a degree, social hegemony would be just as bad) but forced labor camps (yes, this is a question begging euphemism, I donÔÇÖt care) are not the solution. Rather then making these camps (and yes, I'm going to keep using that word) an onus that people will want to avoid (as a low pay forced labor system would no doubt be) a desirable advantage should be attached. I would suggest integrating a college level education system where people who join a camp and get a place to live, a job, and an education. Sure, there are problems that would have to be worked out and (like you) I could go on and on about how it would be implemented, but it would work. Even though the targeted population would be less then forced labor camps, the political fallout and skilled labor exodus (which would, by the way, include more then just rich kids) would be avoided and it would provide an education for individuals who would otherwise be unable to get one.

Oh, about racial integration in the camps, itÔÇÖs a good idea but should only be a loose requirement. If camps had to have even an approximate of our countries racial percentages then it would involve shipping people around simply to fill quotas and denying people entrance (if there were insufficient slots, as there would be in the beginning) based solely on race. Some type of racial integration would be important, but strict adherence to racial demographics would be a mistake.

[Lotharr]

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Rather then making these camps (and yes, I'm going to keep using that word) an onus that people will want to avoid (as a low pay forced labor system would no doubt be) a desirable advantage should be attached. I would suggest integrating a college level education system where people who join a camp and get a place to live, a job, and an education. Sure, there are problems that would have to be worked out and (like you) I could go on and on about how it would be implemented, but it would work

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Well a two year tour for a person is long enough. Where you thinking of something shorter or longer?

College programs are good but that should be during their own time.

I don't know what to tell you on low paid labor camps.....I pictured it more technology work...People should have to sacrifice their life style for a while...whatever that might be. For the people with a high standard of living this would be a serious challenge. For others it would be an amazing step up but no less of a challenge. Asking someone (who never had to before) to get a long with others is a serious challenge. Only through supervision and mentors would this have a shot of succeeding.

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Even though the targeted population would be less then forced labor camps, the political fallout and skilled labor exodus (which would, by the way, include more then just rich kids) would be avoided and it would provide an education for individuals who would otherwise be unable to get one.

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I don't know why you think this would happen....where does a pissed off American go to live? I get the feeling other countries may not be all that happy about disgruntled Americans trying to migrate. I could be wrong on this. I'm not sure.

Do you think cause your kid had to do 2 years civil work for the country you would be so offended you would just pack up and leave? Hell I bet a lot of parents would be glad to have the break and not pay the bills for a while...but you never know.

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Oh, about racial integration in the camps, itÔÇÖs a good idea but should only be a loose requirement. If camps had to have even an approximate of our countries racial percentages then it would involve shipping people around simply to fill quotas and denying people entrance (if there were insufficient slots, as there would be in the beginning) based solely on race. Some type of racial integration would be important, but strict adherence to racial demographics would be a mistake

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I have to disagree. I feel that in order to really understand who people are you have to have exposure to every other major minority. With no side being too large and no one minor minority isolated.

Keep in mind also that a lot of people come from places where you talk with your fists. They have to be made welcome and supervised by a person with whom they can identify. However they also have to work with people of other cultures in a respectful way. There has to be something done with personnel that are too disruptive. And putting someone's kid next to a potential violent nut case is also unacceptable. That I think would be the truly tricky part.

What do you think?

[ 05-10-2002, 15:48: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

[Guest]

Lotharr,

I think your nuts, such a program would not and could not work. You can not shove people together on purpose and expect them to "just get along".

Military is all I was speaking of and is all I would ever speak of. These labor camps you are talking about is just that, a camp, and unacceptable as far as I am concerned. If you want the priviledge of voting, you had better be a veteran of the military, nothing less will do.

You must work in order to get the priviledge to vote, otherwise it is NOT taken seriously. To vote is a huge responsiblity, it cannot be forced up on you. Many people do not take voting seriously, and it is a sad state to say the least.

You live at Ft. Sill? I lived there for 6 months, basic and AIT. TOO DAMN FLAT!!! LOL

[Lotharr]

Heh heh right on both counts! Oklahoma is like one big farm...a verrrry big farm. And I can't wait to leave....

And I am a nut...or haven't you noticed

But I do believe something needs to bring people together....and we're are just throwing idea's around....

Like I said nothing will change until there comes a need.....and that time is not now for the people who make policy in this country....

But maybe one day....

[Raven]

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I don't know what to tell you on low paid labor camps.....I pictured it more technology work...People should have to sacrifice their life style for a while...whatever that might be

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Well, it wouldnt be. From what you have been saying it sounds like you are planning on implementing this only on fairly young people, this means relatively unskilled labor. Oh, sure, any monkey can enter data in a database or even learn how to design spreadsheets and web pages as well as a number of similar tasks, but where is there any teamwork. In all honesty, the only high tech tasks I can think of off hand that require more then a modicum of teamwork are things like programming and perhaps some electronics and such, and these require years of education to be able to do more then the simplest stuff (I should know, I'm majoring in computer science). But this is beside the point, even if we had teams of people doing low skill technology tasks (I'm assuming you mean computer jobs as I can think of no other technology work that requires less real skill), what kind of tasks would they do? The job market for computer users (and programmers, for that matter) has been going down over the last few years, are we going to replace skilled workers with minimally skilled forced laborers some of whos idea of high technology will be a tractor? It wouldnt work. The best we could hope to accomplish would be to replace unskilled laborers (most of whom would probably be government employees) with equally unskilled forced laborers (which may not be such a bad idea, after all, how much do they have to pay someone to stand around holding a sign).

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I don't know why you think this would happen....where does a pissed off American go to live? I get the feeling other countries may not be all that happy about disgruntled Americans trying to migrate. I could be wrong on this. I'm not sure.

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I would choose Canada or England, probably England because Canada is so damn socialist (donÔÇÖt get me started on that one). I'm not sure about England, but I donÔÇÖt doubt that Canada would be delighted to have a sudden influx of skilled workers.

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Do you think cause your kid had to do 2 years civil work for the country you would be so offended you would just pack up and leave? Hell I bet a lot of parents would be glad to have the break and not pay the bills for a while...but you never know.

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Kids? I would never have kids myself, but exactly how old are we talking about? When I read your previous posts I got the impression that you intended to employ people who were relatively young (maybe less then 25) but out of high school. If we are talking about using people younger then this we have to deal with even less skilled labor.

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I have to disagree. I feel that in order to really understand who people are you have to have exposure to every other major minority. With no side being too large and no one minor minority isolated.

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Oh please! Your being ridiculous with this. ItÔÇÖs just not feasible to require such camps to conform to precise (or even rough) racial demographics. First of all it would involve shipping people (at the governmentÔÇÖs expense, of course) from one side of the country to another (and it doesnÔÇÖt bear to think about having to ship people to or from Alaska or Hawaii). This is would be ghastly expensive (especially if you consider the startup costs to build the labor camps), but we also have to think about the number of personnel needed to coordinate the whole operation, we are talking about a lot of government paychecks to be paid, and in general a lot of waist. Oh, and exactly how necessary is adherence to the demographics anyway? Does it really matter if there is a proper proportion of blacks, Hispanic, Jewish, and all the other ethnic groups? Or is it more important that people simply get to know (and value) members of ethnic groups besides there own?

Oh, and by the way, Jaguar is completely right (as usual from what IÔÇÖve seen so far).

[Menchise]

My brain hurts! What's happened to this thread?!

[Lotharr]

Like I said...just checking things out...I don't have all the answers....but...

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I think your nuts, such a program would not and could not work. You can not shove people together on purpose and expect them to "just get along".

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There is always resistance to change but the amount of pain for everyone could be reduced greatly with a well thought out, and properly executed plan.

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But this is beside the point, even if we had teams of people doing low skill technology tasks (I'm assuming you mean computer jobs as I can think of no other ÔÇ£technology workÔÇØ that requires less real skill), what kind of tasks would they do?

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All kinds....from auto repair to office assistant to basic computers...who knows. Perhaps industries would like to have these people come work for them (for cheap) and give them training and possiblly recruit after their term of servce was up.

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I would choose Canada or England, probably England because Canada is so damn socialist (donÔÇÖt get me started on that one). I'm not sure about England, but I donÔÇÖt doubt that Canada would be delighted to have a sudden influx of skilled workers.

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I'm not sure. If enough people started coming in wouldn't the workers already there resist? And who do you think would get priority.

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Oh please! Your being ridiculous with this. ItÔÇÖs just not feasible to require such camps to conform to precise (or even rough) racial demographics. First of all it would involve shipping people (at the governmentÔÇÖs expense, of course) from one side of the country to another (and it doesnÔÇÖt bear to think about having to ship people to or from Alaska or Hawaii). This is would be ghastly expensive (especially if you consider the startup costs to build the labor camps), but we also have to think about the number of personnel needed to coordinate the whole operation, we are talking about a lot of government paychecks to be paid, and in general a lot of waist. Oh, and exactly how necessary is adherence to the demographics anyway? Does it really matter if there is a proper proportion of blacks, Hispanic, Jewish, and all the other ethnic groups? Or is it more important that people simply get to know (and value) members of ethnic groups besides there own?

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A good point.....state level would probably be a better way to go with this. The families wouldn't be that seperated...not too bad long distance etc.....because truly when does a Oklahoman Native American (not that this group could be touched but good example) hang out with a Jewish New Yorker....

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Kids? I would never have kids myself, but exactly how old are we talking about? When I read your previous posts I got the impression that you intended to employ people who were relatively young (maybe less then 25) but out of high school. If we are talking about using people younger then this we have to deal with even less skilled labor.

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Never?

Yeah out of high school is good. Young enough to be impressionable but not too immature to handle the situation.

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Oh, and by the way, Jaguar is completely right (as usual from what IÔÇÖve seen so far).

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Well if you think I'm off the chain on this idea we could just end now. I don't want to waste anyone's time. You have been responding so I thought you were getting something out of this. I already got two good points to think about from you.

[ 05-11-2002, 01:06: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

[Guest Grayfox]

sigh... ive had enough of this... this will be my final post on this subject, mainly becaus i have to explain things like i would to my 5 year old... lets start with this:

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originally posted by Menchise:

My situation in itself is irrelevant. I am not the system. For example, the Sultan of Brunei is the second richest man in the world, but that does not mean that everyone else on Brunei is a billionaire.

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no i just find it slightly amusing that you hash on a capitalist system when you live in one and are successful in it... move to a socialist system and try to be as successful, or even a communist system... guarenteed you wont be so quick to mention the "shortcomings" of a capitalism... perhaps ungrateful is the word im looking for.

now as for the military service thing... once and for all. im gonna quote from an author who pretty much nailed the emotion right on the head. "through voluntary and difficult service, the soldier places the welfare of the GROUP ahead of personal advancement" also there is the sense of pride one has in actually having the cajones to stand up and voluntarily defend the state. with his life if need be. i will look upon a fellow veteran with more esteem and respect than some college book worm who has no practical experience in what the hell is going on around him.

last post on this matter for me.

'nuff said.

[ 05-11-2002, 11:18: Message edited by: Grayfox ]

[Charles Lindsey]

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My brain hurts! What's happened to this thread?!

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It stayed on topic?

[Lotharr]

Well.....it might be hard to look at my idea's in a positive way but at least I stayed on topic....I at least made the min standard...heh heh...

[aramike]

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I think your nuts, such a program would not and could not work. You can not shove people together on purpose and expect them to "just get along".

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Oh yes you can! It worked marvelously in Vietnam, remember?

[Charles Lindsey]

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Oh yes you can! It worked marvelously in Vietnam, remember?

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Way too much of an inside joke. Care to explain?