Mysteries of the Bible

[Raven]

Just a thought, but it seams to me that traversing the bottom of a sea would be pretty slow, especially with children and wagons. I'm not an expert on underwater terrain, but I would think it's pretty rough and not at all easy to cross, if it would even be possible to cross at all (allowing, of course, for the waters having been parted).

[ 12-14-2002, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Dragon Lady ]

[DraconisRex]

Whether you believe the Bible as the perfect Word of God, or as just a story, it's still fun to speculate of how things could have happened. Science may solve part of it some day. At the same time, we may destroy our planet in the next 10-years. Who knows? In a lot of respects, it doesn't matter, but anything which makes you think makes you smarter. Keep that gray matter going... You'll thank yourself later...

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Just a thought, but it seams to me that traversing the bottom of a sea would be pretty slow, especially with children and wagons. I'm not an expert on underwater terrain, but I would think it's pretty rough and not at all easy to cross, if it would even be possible to cross at all (allowing, of course, for the waters having been parted).

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It depends on how rough the waters had been in that sea over the ages.

In Exodus 14: "21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left." The sheer heat required to dry the sea-bed would be greater than atomic -- it would have to be highly focused, highly contained.

Even with a dry sea-bed, it's still going to be rough terrain. But not that rough, when you compare it to the ocean. The number of men, women, and children were very high.

[IceCold]

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A scientific truth is anything scientific that is actually true (not just "believed to be".) It doesn't need to be proven, as it is, by definition, already true.

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But is that not faith? No scientific principle is truth for they can be proven wrong, they are theories (an hypothesis that has been reinforced through multiple trials in an experiment. If religon must be proven why not science?

[DraconisRex]

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Originally posted by IceCold:

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A scientific truth is anything scientific that is actually true (not just "believed to be".) It doesn't need to be proven, as it is, by definition, already true.

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But is that not faith? No scientific principle is truth for they can be proven wrong, they are theories (an hypothesis that has been reinforced through multiple trials in an experiment. If religon must be proven why not science?

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Well, to my way of thinking, neither has been proven absolutely to even exist. The only thing I know is what I have experienced, but, much like role-playing, is it actually real? Or is it something else entirely? Before you answer this philosophical question, remember that proof under these conditions is impossible, for you have to prove to me that we're actually having a conversation, which you cannot do.

I think I have fingers -- does that make it so? If I toss a rock through a window, will I actually get in trouble, or is it only the fact that that is the expected outcome which makes myself think it's in trouble? Again, prove it.

Within the limits of the program called life we are given, nothing will ever actually be proven until we can share each others minds. Then comes the question -- is it your mind that I feel, or have I only been made to think it's your mind? Such questions, unless you are a god (or am I being made to think I am a god?) cannot be answered.

We all have faith that we were born, that we will live until we don't, at which point we will die. Is that true? Prove it.

[ 12-14-2002, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: DraconisRex ]

[DraconisRex]

My whole point to that psychotic explanation is that there is no real proof, because the universe seems to adjust itself to balance out to local conditions. Without religion, there is only life. With religion, there is at least the self-hope that life doesn't end just because the body ceases to function.

[IceCold]

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My whole point to that psychotic explanation is that there is no real proof

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EXACTLY! Therein lies the error of people attacking religon with scientific "truth," This is why all religous debates are no more than idle conversation for in the end the faith of the individual will determine what he believes.

Leans back in his chair in the satisfaction of communicating a point

[Guest rtoolooze]

"Better yet, prove that ANY of them were correct!"

Hmmm... there are so many prophecy's that were recorded in the Bible that came true, that its hard to count them all. Some are easy to prove. An example, God prophesied that the Medes and the Persians would be the ones to conquer Babylon, even naming the individual by name, Cyrus, almost 200 years before it happened. He even went so far as to say the doors would be open to him when he invaded. The night Babylon fell they were having a party, and they left the gates unlocked, so that Cyrus came right on in.(Isa 44:26-45:7)

Gods people (the Jews) had been in captivity in Babylon some seventy years since God had allowed the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem in 607 B.C. for their unfaithfulness. Now it was time for them to return to their homeland to rebuild their city and the Temple to restore true worship, and God used Cyrus to do just that. After he conquered Babylon, he freed the Jews so they could return home.

This prophesy had to come true so that by the time Jesus appeared on the scene, all the prophesies concerning him would have come true. Otherwise there would of been no Jerusalem or Jewish nation, exept the slaves in Babylon.

Another good example is one that occured just after that one. Anyone know who conqured the Persians to become the fifth world power? Thats right, Alexander the Great. The prophecy regarding him can be found in (Daniel 8:5,7,20,21) An interesting side note to this prophecy is one concerning the city of Tyre. Eze 26:4,12 says, " And your [Tyre's] dust they will place in the very midst of the water." In July of 332 B.C, after Alexander defeated the Persians first at the Granicus river, then on the plains of Issus, (before his famous victory at Gaugamela) he came up against the city of Tyre. He then used the rubble of the old mainland city, (which Neduchadnezzar of Babylon destroyed years before) and built a causeway to the island city, which he destroyed.

The prophesy also said his life would be cut short, which it was, that four horns would come up after him, but not with his power, (four of his generals split the kingdom), and that "not to his posterity" would his empire be left. So it was that all of Alexander's family and heirs were done away with after his death. (The ambitious Cassander killed both Roxana, his wife, and his son, also named Alexander. Also Heracles, his illegitimate son by Barsine, were also killed)

So yes, the Bible was written by men, except they were "Inspired by God to do so", and not of their own accord.

Anyway, something to chew on.

[Raven]

Well I have faith in science. It is not, however, blind faith. Inductive reasoning can't give 100% proof, but it can be very good at predicting outcomes and that counts for something. Consider, if you will, technology. Now, it's possible that you're curled up in the fetal position in the corner of some cave amidst a race of extremely primitive humans that have less tool-using capability then apes and imagining this whole thing, or even that this world as you know it doesn't exist.

I guess it's a risk you're going to have to take, whether or not to believe in science, reality as your senses interpret it, and all of that. I have faith in science because it works. Not total, nor blind faith, but faith none the less. It provides a way for us to prove things to the best of our abilities, and it's worked so far. That counts for a lot.

[DraconisRex]

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Originally posted by Dragon Lady:

Well I have faith in science. It is not, however, blind faith. Inductive reasoning can't give 100% proof, but it can be very good at predicting outcomes and that counts for something. Consider, if you will, technology. Now, it's possible that you're curled up in the fetal position in the corner of some cave amidst a race of extremely primitive humans that have less tool-using capability then apes and imagining this whole thing, or even that this world as you know it doesn't exist.

I guess it's a risk you're going to have to take, whether or not to believe in science, reality as your senses interpret it, and all of that. I have faith in science because it works. Not total, nor blind faith, but faith none the less. It provides a way for us to prove things to the best of our abilities, and it's worked so far. That counts for a lot.

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Yes, science seems to work. When I have faith, though, my belief seems to work too, despite science, and I can't offer an explanation to you that will be understood. Perhaps it's simply my belief that I can affect things around me in His name that makes it possible. Mark 10:27: "And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." It works for me -- I believe it, it works, end of story. Maybe it is sceintific, and I don't know it, but at the same time, maybe there is somebody or something that helps unexplainable things come to pass.

I don't have a blind faith in God -- I follow Him with my eyes wide open.

[ 12-14-2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: DraconisRex ]

[Andergum]

quote:

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Originally posted by rtoolooze:

"Better yet, prove that ANY of them were correct!"

Hmmm... there are so many prophecy's that were recorded in the Bible that came true, that its hard to count them all. Some are easy to prove. An example, God prophesied that the Medes and the Persians would be the ones to conquer Babylon, even naming the individual by name, Cyrus, almost 200 years before it happened. He even went so far as to say the doors would be open to him when he invaded. The night Babylon fell they were having a party, and they left the gates unlocked, so that Cyrus came right on in.(Isa 44:26-45:7)

Gods people (the Jews) had been in captivity in Babylon some seventy years since God had allowed the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem in 607 B.C. for their unfaithfulness. Now it was time for them to return to their homeland to rebuild their city and the Temple to restore true worship, and God used Cyrus to do just that. After he conquered Babylon, he freed the Jews so they could return home.

This prophesy had to come true so that by the time Jesus appeared on the scene, all the prophesies concerning him would have come true. Otherwise there would of been no Jerusalem or Jewish nation, exept the slaves in Babylon.

Another good example is one that occured just after that one. Anyone know who conqured the Persians to become the fifth world power? Thats right, Alexander the Great. The prophecy regarding him can be found in (Daniel 8:5,7,20,21) An interesting side note to this prophecy is one concerning the city of Tyre. Eze 26:4,12 says, " And your [Tyre's] dust they will place in the very midst of the water." In July of 332 B.C, after Alexander defeated the Persians first at the Granicus river, then on the plains of Issus, (before his famous victory at Gaugamela) he came up against the city of Tyre. He then used the rubble of the old mainland city, (which Neduchadnezzar of Babylon destroyed years before) and built a causeway to the island city, which he destroyed.

The prophesy also said his life would be cut short, which it was, that four horns would come up after him, but not with his power, (four of his generals split the kingdom), and that "not to his posterity" would his empire be left. So it was that all of Alexander's family and heirs were done away with after his death. (The ambitious Cassander killed both Roxana, his wife, and his son, also named Alexander. Also Heracles, his illegitimate son by Barsine, were also killed)

So yes, the Bible was written by men, except they were "Inspired by God to do so", and not of their own accord.

Anyway, something to chew on.

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None of the above proves anything though.

Its all written in general terms that can be interpreted any number of ways.

" And your dust they will place in the very midst of the water.

That could mean almost anything??

From Tyre's ashes being spread on a lake... to them building a a bridge to a new city using the rubble of the old.

sigh... well enough of this.

I leave this thread with a quote from Carl Sagan...

"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to non-existent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."

-Carl Sagan

[Guest rtoolooze]

"Its all written in general terms that can be interpreted any number of ways."

Uhhh...ya...right. So I guess one could just say that even tho the scriptures actually give the name "Cyrus" as being the one to conquer Babylon, why, that could mean anything, huh? It could mean Bob, Bill, Joe, or whoever since its all in general terms as you say, right?

You are wrong, both of these prophecy's are not written in general terms, they are very specific as to what would happen. And these are just a couple. There are many many more.

The universe is a very complex place. So complex that there is no way it all happened by chance. All of it is governed by laws. Laws set forth by a higher life force. All of life's questions can be answered in the Bible, if one would only study it. That does'nt mean just going to church and learning what John 3:16 say's, like most people. Hey, just because I went to school does'nt mean I know whats in all the text books I studied. You have to keep digging for truth like it was gold.

O I'm sure if you had lived in the tenth century or so, you would have believed that the earth was flat. Would that make it the truth? Nope. In fact, the scriptures at Job 26:7 speaks of God as "hanging the earth upon nothing", and at Isa 40:22 "There is one who is dwelling above the circle of the earth". The word "circle" in the Hebrew text meaning sphere. So a sphere hanging upon nothing is a very accurate discription of our earth, don't you think?

Well, thats some more to chew on.

[Andergum]

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Originally posted by rtoolooze:

[QB]

O I'm sure if you had lived in the tenth century or so, you would have believed that the earth was flat. Would that make it the truth? Nope. In fact, the scriptures at Job 26:7 speaks of God as "hanging the earth upon nothing", and at Isa 40:22 "There is one who is dwelling above the circle of the earth". The word "circle" in the Hebrew text meaning sphere. So a sphere hanging upon nothing is a very accurate discription of our earth, don't you think? [QB]

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heh, funny you should mention that.

Had you believed that the world was a sphere at THAT time, you would have been persecuted for heracy. Even centuries later Galileo was for similar beliefs.

[Raven]

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The word "circle" in the Hebrew text meaning sphere. So a sphere hanging upon nothing is a very accurate discription of our earth, don't you think?

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So if they wanted to say circle (as in a disk, not a sphere), what did they say, tetrahedron? If they meant sphere, then why in the name of all that's unholy was it translated as circle?

[DraconisRex]

If space is curved as scientists persist, then if you go in a straight line long enough, you'll come back to where you started. If you're going the speed of light, you'll come back to when you started, so long as you don't run into any stars, planets, black-holes, quasars, etc., etc., etc. Ugggh...

From the outside of curved space, what exactly does a sphere look like? Or a circle, or a square, or a dodecahedron?

[ 12-15-2002, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: DraconisRex ]

[DraconisRex]

...and I ask again, why are we arguing about the accuracy of the bible? You're not gonna change my beliefs, and I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna change your's.... I choose to believe. That is my choice, and I have to live with it regardless of what your choice is. This is directed to everybody, by the way. Quit arguing; that accomplishes nothing but bring blood pressure to new heights. Knock it off.

This thread is about Mysteries of the Bible, not the Scientific Termination of the Bible. We're exploring what may have happened in these mysteries, on the assumption that the events described happened something like what was written.

This is no different in this respect than critiquing any work of fiction or non-fiction -- The Bible is a book in this thread. Everyone quit getting defensive about whether it's true or not. It doesn't matter in this thread. If you want to argue that point, there are a number of science or religious forums elsewhere on the net -- choose one, and go there, but quit fighting.

[Guest rtoolooze]

"So if they wanted to say circle (as in a disk, not a sphere), what did they say, tetrahedron? If they meant sphere, then why in the name of all that's unholy was it translated as circle?"

Thats because the hebrew language does not have words for both cirle and sphere. The hebrew word "chuwg" was used for circle, sphere, dome, arch, horizon and ring. A few other words too I think. Even so, if you look up at the moon at night, what does it look like? A circle. And no matter what side you looked at it, it looks like a circle.

Anyway, I'm not fighting here. Andergum asked for someone to prove that any of the prophesy's were true, so I did. Anyone could do a little research and find out for themselfs.

Anyway, if anyone thought I was out of line, I'm sorry. I'm only trying to answer some questions, thats all. Be cool, and have a good day people.

[IceCold]

The universe is curved but it is not a sphere.

[DraconisRex]

Sorry, guys... I misread the tone of the conversation. When I went back and re-read it, everything's cool. Guess that's what I get for trying to read stuff with very little sleep...

It's interesting that the Bible seems to assert that the world was round -- that, to Flat Earth Soceities at the time (which still exist, despite proof to the contrary), is its own heresy. They either knew it, or someone made an accurate wild guess -- based on what the Egyptians and Chinese knew at the time, that fits in with part of my theories; just not sure what agent was the go-between.

[Charles Lindsey]

Since Christmas is coming up how about the Star of Bethlehem?

I saw the most interesting show on PBS just now.

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Celebrated in many parts of the world, the Three Wise Men have magical significance in the birth of Christ. Their mysterious identities and their devotion to Christ have bewitched popular imagination ever since the rise of Christianity. MYSTERY OF THE THREE KINGS unearths the real-life places, people, festivities and facts behind the exotic legend. From southern Arabia to Ethiopia and Babylon, this one-hour special searches for the true origins of the Three Wise Men and the secrets of the gifts they brought for Jesus. Using stunning location footage, interviews with renowned biblical scholars, computer graphics, Christmas music and carefully crafted dramatizations, the program brings to life the joy and enchanting mystery of one of the most famous events surrounding Christ's birth.CC

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Actually it was APT. (Alabama Public Television) It's not listed on PBS site. Darn.

Anyway it was very interesting. The interviewed scientists used astrology ( the study of the movements of the planets not the daily horoscope things) to try to find the signifigance of the Star of Bethlehem and what it could possibly have been.

It talked of the three Magi and how they could have possibly predicted the event and a bit about Herod. Way cool.

I did find this. Apparently they are selling it. http://www.aptonline.org/catalog.nsf/bpt/D...48?OpenDocument

Any thoughts on the star?

[Akira]

Chav, Jonah actually was spewn from a large fish/whale creature. The bible doesn't deal much with the effects of bile (stomach acids) on Jonah, but texts of the poeple he visited detail the remainder of his life and the medical problems he had due to his living and breathing in the stomach. I used to have a bunch of reference info on this, but I can't seem to find it right now (convenient, huh?!).

Drac, concerning your view as original man being stupid, I agree. However, Adam and Eve did have a teacher: God. He made their first clothing and it stands to reason he would teach them how to survive/thrive as well.

In addition (i hate not being able to provide ref.'s but i will when i can find them), one must also look at why God said he chose Noah. Noah and family were the ONLY genetically pure bloodline leading back to Adam/Eve. Noah lived in time when man mixed with "not man". Some texts read demon, some fallen angels... etc. I've read a few theories. One of the more interesting is that there was still yet another race completly that lived on earth before God created man. They pissed off God and were removed from the face of the planet. These beings were the ones that intermixed with man resulting genetic aborations that required God reset the world and limit man to the only genetically pure line available. Giants were part of the offshoot of the genetic co mingling with another race man was never intended to mix with.

One of the basis of Noah as factoid is the lack of genetic diversity found in humans (and animals). Scientists have understood for a while that there should be a greater genetic diversity than what exists today. We really have only a few differences between eachother which tends to prove the Noah story rather than disprove.

Israelites were not God's people until late in human existance. God's chosen were picked due to Abraham's obedience to God. Before Abraham there wasn't Israelite and non... Until long after David brought toghether the tribes of Judah and Israel under one rule, there were no Jew and Gentile distinctions.

As for connecting the Chinese/Indians (peoples that are closely related to begin with) to Adam... its all in the genetics. Follow the genes back and you'll find that all humans on this planet are closely related.

As for whether Egypt had relations with Inca... its possible. The earliest peoples to the Americas were not Indian. Some had features similar to caucasian. It has also been proven that many of the pacific rim and asian peoples traversed the pacific and landed in central/south america. Native Americans, for that matter, are not really native. Granted they've been here in masse the longest, but they're closely related to the Mongol's of China and were NOT the first peoples to exist on this contenent. Anthorpologists are finding new evidence every day that humans appearing nothing like Indians existed here when the place was supposed to have been covered in ice...

But, back to the Bible. My point is, Drac, your denile of creationism is to deny God. It is, in fact, part of the OT where "God said" and by your musings here should be something you believe. Remember, the Jew/Gentile distinction came much much later in the bible.

It should also be noted, being that you believe in the NT as truth/gospel that those who accept Christ as Lord and Savior are grafted back into the line of Abraham and heir to the blessings God bestowed upon Abraham and his children. However, until Christ came along, only the line of Abraham (later to be known as Israelite) were heir to Abraham's blessings. That doesn't mean God made Jew and Gentile seperately, it was merely He found one obedient man and set him apart from other men as His chosen. Sadly, jews of generations after focused too much on law and tradition to understand that they were supposed to be God's representative to all people not God's ONLY people. Unlike Abraham, later Jews forgot that they should obey God and instead obeyed tradition. They lost favor with God and became slave to all.

Obedience, Chav, is why Moses, et al. wandered the wilderness for 40 years. Only a few returned from Canan(sp?) unafraid to obey God and take the land. A generation was lost to the wilderness while God taught the next generation to trust Him.

There have been a few documentaries on the trumpets and the walls. Archeology has confirmed the destruction of these walls by a force similar to an earth quake.

Anyway, much of this makes sense to me right now, but after I wake up in a couple of hours that may be different hehe. I hope it makes some sense to you. Anyway, I'd enjoy reading reactions providing you can make sense of my sleep infused musings. Must sleep now. G'night.

[ 12-21-2002, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: Akira ]

[Charles Lindsey]

Akira:

That's why I put whale in quotes. MOst kids in Sunday School are taught whale for simplicity I think and that's what most people remember if anything. It was some sort of large swimming creature as you say and I just used whale in quotes to signify this. The rest of your point about the medical probs is interesting.

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As for connecting the Chinese/Indians (peoples that are closely related to begin with) to Adam... its all in the genetics.

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I once had a homeroom teacher who had a map of the earth and a picture of the peoples of each region. I.E. China, Japan, Mongol, etc. etc. What was extremely fascinating about this map was that you could follow the asians to the eskimos to the hawaiins (sp?) to the american indians and could actually see the similarities throughout the "chain". Not that American Indians look much like Japanese but when you go down the line you could see the passage of features. Whether this has basis in fact or is just wishful thinking on my part I don't know but it was neat to notice.

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Obedience, Chav, is why Moses, et al. wandered the wilderness for 40 years. Only a few returned from Canan(sp?) unafraid to obey God and take the land. A generation was lost to the wilderness while God taught the next generation to trust Him.

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"Wandered" implies lost to me. If they were told to stay in the desert 40 years I can go to the obedience thing. If they were lost for 40 years God must have caused the confusion.

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There have been a few documentaries on the trumpets and the walls. Archeology has confirmed the destruction of these walls by a force similar to an earth quake.

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Like the host marching around the walls for three days? Didn't they do that first?

And the trumpet thing. I wonder how many had trumpets? Ever been to a football game with a band? Ever notice just how loud 250 + people with instruments can get? Wonder how much effect sound waves would have on an already weakened wall?

My favorite thing in all this is finding biblical events that have scientific backing of some sort.

Was the Star of Bethlehem a comet? A conjunction of planets? Both?

Did THE Flood cover the entire Earth as the bible says or just enough of the region to make it seem like it to those guys?

Oh well, that's why they are mysteries.