weegee_101 Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 quote:Originally Posted by Kalshion: Sorry Cmdr. WeeGee but I don't need to prove it as its all over the place. However the media never reports that does it? Take clinton for example, after he left office he confessed that he lie'd. They don't report it because there is no hard evidence. Not to mention if your an illegal immigrant you can't vote anyhow. Racism is a disease. Racist people should go see their family physician. quote:Originally Posted by Kalshion: As for the forceing thing, Both my father and I disagree... they have NO right to force me to do anything.. And the administration knows that to. Why are they forcing me? I don't know,im already taking Japanses and Germen at the Community College here in my state, So why must I take a language at my high school if im already taking one at the CC?Are they PSO(Post-Secondary Option) classes? If so you should be able to get them as high school credit. Your school has EVERY right to force you to take a class. Its how the education system works. I advise you to not bother sueing them. You should be glad that you're at least taking those courses at a college. Just take the courses and get it over with, everyone has to do this during their education. Its called a requirement, live with it, thats life.
DraconisRex Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 As I think of Amercica, and the world's problems, I find myself thinking about what Ghandi said about the West: quote: Reporter (to Mahatma Gandhi): Mr Gandhi, what do you think of Western Civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.
scorchedearth Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Kalshion: Has anyone notice'd that how our country *USA* is not doing a damn thing to stop illigel imigation... ...I have proof about this happening... If you have proof, please notify the proper authorites... I am POSITIVE they will take care of it. "*USA*" is you... help us out, dude! Don't be one of the ones that do nothing. Inform the proper authorities. quote: Anyone ever had a problem where the school would FORCE you, yes I mean FORCE you to learn something?? well normaly im willing to learn a subject, but with what my school is doing is wrong, there forcing me to learn a language I don't WANT to learn...Tricky there, that is. It could be argued that schools "force" kids to learn english and math and authority obeyance, etc.... but I argue that schools teach what is agreed upon that they teach. School Committees have much to do with this. These committees have meetings which, as I understand it, are open to the public. Majority rules. If the majority of the people in the town want their children to learn Chinese, then that's what they learn, though I agree people should have the option of opting for nothing. The town votes on what language the money is spent on. If you choose to opt out, I think that should be ok, but don't expect them to start teaching spanish. Teach yourself.
Guest Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 Oh my god, where do I start? quote:Posted by Race Bannon IV Okay I'll bite. Just who are these REAL americans? Stuff like that makes my blood boil. Touchy, Aren't we? THe fact is that about 60% of this countries citizens do not know their rights under the constitution, they are clueless, 20%, know, but don't care and 15% know, and want to do something about it, and 5% know exactly what is going on, because they are causing it. They want POWER, and since the constitution is so unfortunate for them, they either want the citiazens to forget it, or ignore it, or be ignorant of it. I am talking about the 15% that see what is wrong and want to do something about and are WILLING to do something about it. Read the Declaration of Independence, if you would be willing to sign that document all over again, then you are what I consider a "REAL" American. The rest are either too lazy, or couldn't care less. quote: Again, posted by Race Bannon IV If anyone has created "sheeple" (a truly disgusting term) It's been the corporations who have been successful in the "Malling" of our country turning it into a idolatrous , materialistic , me first society that is more concerned about the aquisition of things than they are about people. And when all else fails, lets dredge up a former lackey of the GOP's latest nation building project and demonize the shit out of him so no one asks why things are going so bad at home. Don't worry, be happy, buy more shit, spend more money. Rome had bread and circuses before it fell and we got SUV's and Starbucks. I couldn't agree with you more, but I lay the blame square on the government and it's regulatory and taxation policies. A little regulation is one thing, but when a company is paying over 80% of it's profits in taxes/ regulatory governmental garbage, then we have a huge problem. Not only that, companies are FORCED by the government to do things like minimum wage, SSI, Unemployment insurance, and add about 20-30 other things that take time out of their day and profits out of their pockets. No wonder these companies are running to other countries. You think these companies are in business as charities? A little ecological regulation, fine with me, but to tell them HOW to run their company, how much to pay their workers,(this should be market based) pay unemployment insurance(this should be payed by the worker, just as any other insurance) SSI, what a pyramid scheme that is, medicare, all it has caused is skyrocketing health insurance. GOVERNMENT has caused it, NOTHING else, so sorry charlie, this is also why you believe that they lobby the government so much and control so much, because they were forced to, otherwise they would MAKE no profit at all!! They had to lobby government and buy politicians, or they could not have survived. quote: originally posted by WeeGee Do they? Are you absolutly sure. Have you read the minutes for the House or Senate lately. I don't think a single one of them has mentioned anything about re-election while on the stand? Perhaps its just that the media rarely shows anything other than politicians talking about re-election. Ever watch one of those morning talk shows? Almost always the politician interviewed will be asked if they're going to run for re-election or not. Please. Spare me, actually get some decent evidence before making such false accusations. Polticians spend 10% of their time on the floor debating, 20% communicating with their constituents and 70% of their time either campaigning or raising money for their next one. Them's the facts jack, whether you choose to ignore them or not. I would like nothing more then to have congress stay home 11 months out of the year. Half the crap they pass is for special interest groups, and to put MORE controls on we the people. Look at that stupid campaign finance reform, or the unconsitutional patriot act, or the idiotic Homeland security bill. A whole lot of nothing, and flushin the constitution down the toilet. Wanna keep terrorists out? A: LOCK DOWN THE BORDERS!!! B: Find and deport all ILLEGAL and expired visa aliens within the United states. C: Get the True militias up and running, who are the militias? EVERY able bodied man and woman between the ages of 18 and 45. quote: Also by WeeGee Regulation is important. Without regulation we'd have one company owning the entire nation. Take Microsoft for example, had they not been punished for their illegal actions then in about, oh say 20 years we could well be STUCK with using the shoddy Windows operating system. Taxes are also important. Have you ever heard of the government deficit. Its one reason for inflation. Taxes help to lower the addition to the deficit by supporting government programs. Taxes are needed to have a decent government. Go and pick up a copy of the national budget before screaming for lower taxes. Microsoft was NEVER PROVEN to have done anything illegal, they still own 90+% of the OS market, nothing has changed accept a bunch of lawyers made a lot of money. Regulations are sometimes necassary, but not often, monopolies, fine, ecological regs based on REAL science and not a bunch bureaucrats, fine. But wages, benefits etc should be set by the free market. The FEDERAL governments budget is about 80% more then it should be. Defense, interstate commerce(highway system) and treaties etc with foreign countries is about ALL it is TRULY and consitutionally allowed to do, EVERYTHING else is at the state level. Most of the federal programs are supposed to be at the state level, the fed's should have NOTHING to do with it. Sure taxes are important, but living within it's constitutional guidelines are important as well. quote: Again, by WeeGee Now then, I'm going to go back to working on my stuff concerning my local school system and how its caring to much about standardized test scores and punishment and not enough about teaching actual KNOWLEDGE. That is another story though. Right on!! Good for you, but I feel the public school system, since we seem to have to have one, should be dismantled at the federal level, and ALL decisions regarding education should be at the state and local level. The fed's have no place in standardizing ANYTHING, the founding fathers knew that what was good for New York, was NOT necessarily good for Wyoming as well. That is why we have limits on the federal government and the 10th amendment. And welfare? that should be a state option as well, the fed's have NO place in it, I do not see anywhere in the constitution where the fed's are allowed "to take money from those who have it and give it to those who do not". There is a Madison quote about that somewhere, I just don't have it handy. quote: Kalshion I about covered all of your post with above. quote: Posted by WeeGee Economies work by supply and demand. Are you familiar with Supply and Demand Graphs? Often, they have floors and ceilings caused by uncontrollable forces that keep it from reaching equilibrium. I personally feel that if you could graphically represent regulation that one of those floors or ceilings is whats causing the balance from not being met. Regulations are what is keeping that equilibrium from being met. Study a bit more about the free enterprise system and the US and you will see that regulation by federal and state government is what is causing the problem. It is causing stagnation, and causing companies to flee the country. quote:again by WeeGee The constitution has to be revised to fit the time. If we still were following the constitution we'd still be in a dark age. Your a woman right? You'd still have no rights. Times call for changes, the fact that the government has to spend like this is a need for change. BS, the constitution can be revised, it is called the amendment process, MOST if not ALL of the government spending is caused by IGNORING the consitution, NOT changing it. Because if they had to change it, it wouldn't happen. quote: Again by WeeGee Let me tell you a little story of a friend of mine. His last name is Smith (I'm holding his first for his security), and he's has a wife and two teenage girls. One of his daughters has an anxiety disorder that hospitalized her for some time. Last year, the day after Christmas, he had a seizure caused by a brain tumor. He lost his job, which paid only enough to support his family, and he had outrageous doctor's bills to pay. His wife, who was currently going to school in hope to get a degree to better their life, had to drop her classes in order to get a job to support the family. He was unable to go back to work at his old job, since he could not lift anything heavy. It took him 4 months to get a job that could pay enough, WITH his wife still having to work as well, to support his family. Welfare helped them through a lot of this; without it, they probably would be living in the slums somewhere. They are still trying to pay bills to this date, and its almost been a year. Thats why welfare exhists, I don't think I need to say much more. My heart grieves for them, but there are other alternatives besides the fed's, it is called the states and private LOCAL charities and family. All of the above problems, barely making enough money, overregulation and taxes, expensive doctors bills, federal involvement in healthcare is DIRECTLY atributable to that. I feel bad for them, but they should be helped by state and local and private programs, NOT a FEDERALLY mandated and unconstitutional one. quote: Again, by WeeGee No. Thats their right to force you to learn a language. And if you sue them then all you'll end up doing is paying a bunch of lawyers bills. And no offense, but they should be teaching you spelling and grammar before teaching another language. Again, BS, it is none of the SCHOOLS businees to FORCE you to learn a language, you should learn that which is necessary to think and to live, and the rest should be by choice of the student, but that is my opinion, and why I homeschool my 3 children. Again, the schools should be PAYED for and regulated at the state and local level, the fed's should have NOTHING to do with it. quote: Again, by WeeGee I don't agree with abortion, I feel that it is wrong. That doesn't mean I support getting rid of it. Its just another freedom in our countries. On this we actually agree, but again, it is a state issue, not a federal one. Roe VS Wade was a federal power grab, nothing more. And that is what democrats and liberals do, they want as much power over EVERY individual person as they can get, that is why they promise all those wonderful things like free healthcare, NOTHING is free, prescription drugs, oh fun, fun, etc, etc, ad nauseum. If the government controls your access to it, healthcare, prescription drugs etc, they by default control YOU!! quote: By Kalshion As for the forceing thing, Both my father and I disagree... they have NO right to force me to do anything.. And the administration knows that to. Why are they forcing me? I don't know,im already taking Japanses and Germen at the Community College here in my state, So why must I take a language at my high school if im already taking one at the CC? You are absolutely correct, the ONLY power a school has over you, is whatever power you willingly give them. End of story. WHEW, that was a long post, time for a break and some dinner. There Kalshion, now you know the opinions of a constitutionalist. [ 12-18-2002, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Jaguar ]
Kalshion Posted December 19, 2002 Author Report Posted December 19, 2002 quote:Originally posted by Blerm: quote:Originally posted by Kalshion: Has anyone notice'd that how our country *USA* is not doing a damn thing to stop illigel imigation... ...I have proof about this happening... If you have proof, please notify the proper authorites... I am POSITIVE they will take care of it. "*USA*" is you... help us out, dude! Don't be one of the ones that do nothing. Inform the proper authorities.Ok.. but who? as for home schooling... my father wish's he could do that but he's nor qualifed or has the time =
AllenKG2001 Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 I suppose in all fairness my views and the way I put them across came out leading to a kind of fascism point of view. I take it all back. quote: Darling, what you're advocating is imposing your rigid and outdated moral code on an unwilling populace. That's not exactly fascism, but it's in the same ballpark. The system isn't corrupt, at least not in the way you think it is, but I'll tell you a little something about the type of excessive government control you're advocating, it tends to lead to real corruption and to some serious problems for the population in general. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is so much now that people except as right that they don't even know that it's wrong (take Dragonlady for example). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please darling, spare me. I know perfectly well what's right and what's wrong, I simply disagree with you on what that is. I see your point of view here. Everyone has their own vision of right and wrong and so, whos to say what is. I believe I came over as my version was right and yours was wrong, sorry. I still feel that a set of rules should be made and agreed on by everyone for a standard of right and wrong issues. quote: I haven't actually heard that many songs about cheating, though I prefer gothic rock myself and I'm not really all that familiar with mainstream music. Still, I don't see how this is a problem, they can listen to whatever they bloody well please. I myself listen to metal music and avoid all mainstream music but you cannot avoid the mainstream as where-ever you go it is played (TV, shops). With metal music (particulary the stuff I listen to) is underground and not publicaly displayed so even though it's corupted itself, it's not publicaly corupting. With mainstream music that is corupting, it's publicaly displayed and so accepted. I'm not saying it should be banned and when I say controlled, I mean like adult books are top self out of childrens reach. The same should be applied to this sort of music. Played at a later time on the radio, advertised at a later time on TV and not so easily displayed in shops. Here I go again, forcing my views across. OK, my points should be voted for. My bottom line is that we should look for ways to prevent coruption (coruption as in teaching of ways of life that hurt oneself, others or go against any religious beliefs) being spread publicaly. If people belive in abortion, fine, they can keep it to themselves. I listen to metal music, fine, I keep it to myself. quote: Darling, I think that the earth should orbit the sun. It's that peachy. Teens aren’t encouraged to have sex at a young age, at least not that I've heard of, if anything it is discouraged. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist. LOL. I take your point on this but somewhere teen pregnancy has increased and the UK some time ago had the worst case of it. Their encouraged from somewhere and I belive that it is the mainstream music industry that is spreading it. When I was a kid we never listen to the kind of s*** that is being played today. I feel sorry for the new generation. There is no fun in music culture anymore. Every where I go, everyone is listening to the same crap and have turned into sheep. Right, I'm gonna make a cup of coffee.
weegee_101 Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 I'm tired, this will be my last post for tonight, then I hit the sack. quote:Originally Posted by Jaguar: Polticians spend 10% of their time on the floor debating, 20% communicating with their constituents and 70% of their time either campaigning or raising money for their next one.Prove it, I want to see hard evidence of this. Call one of your state Representatives. Ask them about campaigning. How about helping with a campaign? Try that. I'm sure that at least 50% of their time is for campaigning, but they need to keep their job. Working hard would only reach out to a small percentage of the population. There are a lot of uneducated people out there who vote simply on how well the campaign goes. Also, campaigning could also be thought of as stating opinions. Typically, what does a politican do while campaigning? He states his opinion and what he's going to work for. What exactly is wrong with this, he's simply telling the people what he is working for. This allows people to know what the hell is going on. I doubt everyone watches C-Span. People can voice their opinion to him after they know what he thinks. If this is what you consider "campaigning" then you really need to take deeper thought to it. quote:Originally Posted by Jaguar: Wanna keep terrorists out? A: LOCK DOWN THE BORDERS!!! B: Find and deport all ILLEGAL and expired visa aliens within the United states. C: Get the True militias up and running, who are the militias? EVERY able bodied man and woman between the ages of 18 and 45.There goes the economy. We lock down the borders you best well kiss your $18,000+ car goodbye. Lets raise taxes and create a task force to remove those illegal aliens at once. Oh, wait, there already is one. Its called the Border Patrol. But oh my, they're understaffed. So sad. I'm smelling a Police State on that last one. Anybody else smell it? quote:Originally Posted by Jaguar: Right on!! Good for you, but I feel the public school system, since we seem to have to have one, should be dismantled at the federal level, and ALL decisions regarding education should be at the state and local level. Whoever said it was the federal government that caused the problems in my local school system? It was the last Govenor of Georgia and the piece of shit School Board. State and Local governments. Spare me, the federal government had to intervene with the local and state schoolboards concerning my system. They only can do so much though, as laws and regulations prevent them from stepping too far. quote:Originally Posted by Jaguar: And welfare? that should be a state option as well, the fed's have NO place in it, I do not see anywhere in the constitution where the fed's are allowed "to take money from those who have it and give it to those who do not". There is a Madison quote about that somewhere, I just don't have it handy. And where does it say that it isn't allowed? It doesn't. If we followed the constitution word for word then we could drive 90 mph on any road. Hmmm, death rate would be high. Its the same concept. quote:Originally Posted by Jaguar: My heart grieves for them, but there are other alternatives besides the fed's, it is called the states and private LOCAL charities and family.Family is out of the question for them. They arn't the only ones in the family with no money. The only private LOCAL charities that are in my area that could help them are a bunch of bullshitting Southern Baptist charities that only help people who are willing to become christian. Did I mention that Mr. Smith's wife is Native American, and they're currently getting ripped off by the Bureau of Indian Affairs? They have some land in Oklahoma that they arn't even allowed to live on. The people presented the idea to congress in the first place, if they deem it necessary, they can take it away. Mass America obviously feels it is needed though otherwise it would have been changed by now. quote:Originally Posted by Jaguar: Regulations are what is keeping that equilibrium from being met. Study a bit more about the free enterprise system and the US and you will see that regulation by federal and state government is what is causing the problem. It is causing stagnation, and causing companies to flee the country. Not completely. I have studied both the US economy and the free enterprise system. Regulation can be a problem, but when a company is patted on its hand because it wants to employ 1 million workers at $3.00/hour that would destroy the economy even more. Trust me, there are CEOs out there THAT stupid. And without regulation, one monopoly could take over, over charge everyone, and everyone would STILL have to work for that monopoly. Doesn't work, regulations are required for a Market Economy, otherwise people take advantage of other people. quote:Originally Posted by Jaguar: BS, the constitution can be revised, it is called the amendment process, MOST if not ALL of the government spending is caused by IGNORING the consitution, NOT changing it. Because if they had to change it, it wouldn't happen. We need Codes and Laws though, and those matter too. The constitution is simply the most important codes and laws. Its harder to change a law that is within the constitution than it is to change a law that is just that, a law. What I believe your proposing is that we get rid of all other laws in order to just be ruled by the constitution. Along with that, you mentioned that the state government should have more control. Hmm, interesting. It seems our founding fathers destroyed the first "constitution" because it gave the state government too many freedoms. Personally, I feel that most of our founding fathers would be very proud of how the federal government does its job as the grandaddy of the governments. quote:Originally Posted by Jaguar: Again, BS, it is none of the SCHOOLS businees to FORCE you to learn a language, you should learn that which is necessary to think and to live, and the rest should be by choice of the student, but that is my opinion, and why I homeschool my 3 children. Again, the schools should be PAYED for and regulated at the state and local level, the fed's should have NOTHING to do with it. Ok, so your saying that if a student doesn't think that learning Algebra is important, they shouldn't take it? That bothers me. The school system teaches what it feels it needs to for a student to be successful. Thats what schools have been doing for years and years. Granted, I think that you should have some choice in a language, but thats the school boards decision, they're the ones who make your school system the way it is. You need to research your local public schools a little more. I don't know about where you live, but here in Georgia, ALL of the public schools are run by the State and Local School Systems. The Feds do play a little part, but its miniscule compared to what the State and Local governments do. The Feds don't choose curriculum, thats the State and Local government's job. Spare me. quote:Originally Posted by Jaguar: And that is what democrats and liberals do, they want as much power over EVERY individual person as they can get, that is why they promise all those wonderful things like free healthcare, NOTHING is free, prescription drugs, oh fun, fun, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Oh please. I'm pretty liberal, and I can assure you that is the biggest piece of bullshit I've EVER seen. EVERYONE pays taxes, so in a sense it isn't free for anyone who gets those things. If your so cold hearted to have no compassion to your fellow American, then thats your problem. When you loose your job, get thrown out on the street, and come knocking on my door for money, don't expect any. Remember the golden rule, "Treat unto others as you wish to be treated." Amen to that. I'm off to bed, g'night everyone. [ 12-18-2002, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Cmdr. WeeGee ]
weegee_101 Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 Heh, just saw LBM's post, figured I'd reply. I'm glad you realized your fault, your forgiven, we all need a little wake up call sometimes. I agree with the point on mainstream music. I'm 18(even though I sound like I'm in my 30s) and I hate the shit on the radio. I prefer oldies . While I do listen to metal myself, its mostly Old Skool. A lot of other teenagers listen to oldies as well, its just good music. Mainstream stuff is so shitty, they don't even have skill anymore. quote:Originally Posted by LBM: LOL. I take your point on this but somewhere teen pregnancy has increased and the UK some time ago had the worst case of it. Their encouraged from somewhere and I belive that it is the mainstream music industry that is spreading it. Right on. There's not much you can do about it though. What you can do is talk to your children and whenever your around them, don't let them listen to that shit. As for me, I'm seriously going to bed now. Just gonna read some of the Wall Street Journal and fall asleep when I find the most boring article in this issue. (Don't ask, I'm the wierdest 18 year old you'll find. I'm a rare breed, we grow up to be politicans and good citizens.)
Guest Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 WeeGee, All I am gonna say is this. You sound like Lotharr, living in a world that is NOT real. You do NOT know the consitution and it's limitations on federal government or you would not say 80% of what you say. You are part of the 60% that I talked about in the above post. You do not have a clue how the free enterprise system works, nor how federal and state regulation and taxation stifle it. The problem with the ORIGINAL federal constitution, was that it was so restricted that the federal government was USELESS, it had NO power to deal with foreign countries, on behalf of the states, and HAD NO power to defend the states against attack. The founding father fixed those 2 problems, that is what the constitution was for, ALL other powers resided at the state and local level. Read a bit on your own, instead of listening to your liberal propaganda, because the liberals are what created the problems that you seem to hate so much. I find it rather amusing actually. You hate the result, but you still try the same remedies. Round and round we go, until we destroy ourselves. That's the real sad part of it, because it will NOT end until we have wrung the economy of every red cent in taxes, and then when there is no one left to pay, it will self destruct. It happens EVERY TIME!! Here, let me give you a short quote... quote: "We need true tax reform that will at least make a start toward restoring for our children the American Dream that wealth is denied to no one, that each individual has the right to fly as high as his strength and ability will take him. . . . But we cannot have such reform while our tax policy is engineered by people who view the tax as a means of achieving changes in our social structure." -Ronald Reagan "We who live in free market societies believe that growth, prosperity and ultimately human fulfillment, are created from the bottom up, not the government down. Only when the human spirit is allowed to invent and create, only when individuals are given a personal stake in deciding economic policies and benefiting from their success - only then can societies remain economically alive, dynamic, progressive, and free. Trust the people." -Ronald Reagan "We don't have a trillion-dollar debt because we haven't taxed enough; we have a trillion-dollar debt because we spend too much." -Ronald Reagan "... the march of freedom and democracy ... will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash heap of history as it has left other tyrannies which stifle the freedom and muzzle the self-expression of the people." -Ronald Reagan That is what will fix it, now to what caused it. quote: "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policies, always followed by a dictatorship. "The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, and from dependency back into bondage." Did you read that? did you understand that? Who is this person talking about? quote: The quote is from historian Alexander Frazier Tyler. He died in 1813, so he could hardly have been writingabout the Republic of the United States. Actually, he was writing about the Athenian Republic. History repeats itself again, where are we in this quote, can you tell? I can, it's called APATHY, scary, isn't it?
weegee_101 Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 The coffee's brewing. All of these quotes are directly from the constitution. We have a right to have laws other than whats stated in the constitution. quote:Article 1. Section 7. Every Bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a Law, be presented to the President of the United States; If he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his Objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the Objections at large on their Journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such Reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the Bill, it shall be sent, together with the Objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a Law. But in all such Cases the Votes of both Houses shall be determined by Yeas and Nays, and the Names of the Persons voting for and against the Bill shall be entered on the Journal of each House respectively. If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law. We have a right of taxation. quote:Article 1. Section 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; And the federal government is supreme law of the land. quote:Article 6. ...This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. Now tell me the state is god. Oh, and go ahead and tell me that I don't know the constitution again. Boy you are funny.
Kalshion Posted December 19, 2002 Author Report Posted December 19, 2002 Now now you two please keep it Civil please =)
weegee_101 Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 I am. I'm simply stating that the Federal government is the supreme government in the land. Here's something else I found. quote:Amendment X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.Creation of Codes and Laws is delegated to the Federal Government. They've created laws for welfare, education, and other things we've discussed here tonight.
Guest Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 quote: Creation of Codes and Laws is delegated to the Federal Government. They've created laws for welfare, education, and other things we've discussed here tonight. Reading it, and actually KNOWING what it means are 2 different things. SHOW me WHERE, in the Consititution, the Federal government is ALLOWED to have a welfare plan, a social security plan, a medicare plan. Where in the constitution does it tell the federal government it can do that? DO NOT say the general welfare clause, because you would be wrong. Where in the constitution does it give permission for the US government, FEDERAL government, to do those things? The constitution is a document LIMITING the federal government, it has more to do with WHAT the government CANNOT do, then what it can. If it is NOT spelled out in the constitution, then it IS NOT allowed to do it, you showed me the amendment where it said WHO had that power, and it is NOT the federal government. Now, again, WHERE does it say the FEDERAL government can do those things. Yes, Jaguars class in consitutional law is now in session.
Guest Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 quote: Amendment X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Just for fun, let's take this apart, because you have read, but you do NOT understand it. First part, The powers NOT delegated to the United States by the constitution. Delegated, so you see that? in other words, what the constitution does is gives the federal government PERMISSION to do. OK, next part nor prohibited by it to the States, OK, so it prohibits the states in a few items, but ONLY because it gives the federal government that power. Last part, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. In other words, what the constitution gives the federal government power to do, is all it gets, because ALL other powers are delegated to the states. In other words, if the constitution KEEPS the federal government from doing, but does NOT limit the states from doing it, the states CAN do it, NO ONE else. So, if the constitution is SILENT on something, the federal government does not have that power, because the consitution ONLY tells the federal government what it CAN do. Those that it is silent on are delegated to the states, and the states ONLY!!
weegee_101 Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 Where it says that congress and the president is allowed to make laws. Both the Welfare plan and Medicare are simply codes of law. It doesn't have to DIRECTLY state that there should be a welfare plan or medicare. Those kinds of things are left to the people, the lawmakers of our nation. If you think that it has to DIRECTLY state that a law can be in exhistance you truly have a small understanding of the Constitution. As for this discussion, I'm done for today. Your wacked out understanding of the constitution scares me. The constitution IS about what WE CAN DO. If it isn't in the constitution then that doesn't mean we CAN'T do it. Call any politician, Democrat or Republican, and I'm sure they'll tell you the same thing. If what you say was true, then we'd never get anywhere with our system of government.
Guest Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 Sorry WeeGee, But I am right, you obviously have NEVER studied the federalist papers, nor the ANTI-federalist papers. You have been rather amusing, but also VERY frightening. There is a reason that the constitution LIMITS federal power, and if you study history, you will see why. Benjamin Franklin, (one of the founding fathers) said this when asked what type of government they had created with the constitution. "A Republic, IF, you can keep it." Well, to say the least, we haven't kept it. Go to college, and take a consitutional law course, you will soon find out that I am CORRECT. Read the federalist papers, you will soon realize that I am CORRECT, read the ANTI-federalist papers, and you will find out that they KNEW EXACTLY what would happen.
Guest Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 quote: Where it says that congress and the president is allowed to make laws. Both the Welfare plan and Medicare are simply codes of law. Where does it say that?(Congress Creates and passes bills, all the president does is sign them, when he signs them, they become laws. The president can create executive orders, but they are NOT laws, they are orders to the executive branch.) and NO, if it does NOT say they can, then they CANNOT. Welfare and Medicare are NOT anywhere in the constitution, again, find the specific article that allows The federal government to create medicare and welfare. (Hint: you won't find it.) quote: It doesn't have to DIRECTLY state that there should be a welfare plan or medicare. YES it does... (this is rather simplistic, but if I went further, I would take up a good portion of your screen.) quote: If you think that it has to DIRECTLY state that a law can be in exhistance you truly have a small understanding of the Constitution. No, you are the one with the small understanding.(again, rather simplistic, but true) quote: The constitution IS about what WE CAN DO. What the FEDERAL government can do. quote: If it isn't in the constitution then that doesn't mean we CAN'T do it. YES, that is EXACTLY what it means, but it ONLY means the FEDERAL government can't do it. (again, simplistic, BUT TRUE) It allows the states to, or the people to, but it does NOT allow the FEDERAL government to. quote: Your wacked out understanding of the constitution scares me. NO Yours is the whacked out understanding, and let me tell you, IT REALLY SCARES ME!!! quote: If it isn't in the constitution then that doesn't mean we CAN'T do it. YES, THAT is EXACTLY what it means, for the FEDERAL government.(again, simplistic, but I don't want to go too fast here) quote: Call any politician, Democrat or Republican, and I'm sure they'll tell you the same thing. And if they did, they should be impeached for breaking their oath and NOT upholding the constitution, as they are sworn to do.(Federal elected officials ONLY) quote: If what you say was true, then we'd never get anywhere with our system of government. No, it does NOT, it means that the federal government is Limited in what it is allowed to do, and if you want something done that the federal government CANNOT do, then you go to your state government to have it done. As long as it does NOT violate the Bill of rights!! [ 12-19-2002, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: Jaguar ]
Guest Remo Williams Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 Here is another path we seem to be headed down.
Guest Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 quote: Here is another path we seem to be headed down. Just from the article, it scares the hell out of me. BUT, I think that it will turn out that most of the ones arrested were either on expired visa's or on the terrorist watch list. Although, for some reason, I DOUBT it. Scary stuff Maynard!! In all honesty, the only people that would turn themselves in are those that do NOT have terrorist leanings, They WANT to be legal, so arresting them, AFTER you have asked them to register, is not a good way to get people to obey the law. This is going to BACKFIRE, and BIG time!! [ 12-19-2002, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: Jaguar ]
Guest Remo Williams Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 The article raised an eye brow here as well. It seems a bit heavy handed. If it turns out they were here illegally or a known threat then they are where they belong. If they were just trying to comply with the new laws on registration as the article suggests, and are honest hard working people. Just here for a better life for their families. Its something to keep and eye on. Regardless its sure to cause and out cry from Arabs everywhere! [ 12-19-2002, 02:30 AM: Message edited by: Remo Williams ]
weegee_101 Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 So what your saying is that all those laws and codes that the Federal government has made are unconstitutional. No, you haven't sold me. If you really feel this is so then either contact people in Washington, run for an office, or start a revolution. Don't bother screaming in others faces about it. From the Anti-Federalist papers, Brutus #1. quote:It[the national government] is as much one complete government as that of New-York or Massachusetts, has as absolute and perfect powers to make and execute all laws, to appoint officers, institute courts, declare offences, and annex penalties, with respect to every object to which it extends, as any other in the world.Yet the Federalist papers go right behind it and say the exact opposite. Also from Brutus #1 quote:It has authority to make laws which will affect the lives, the liberty, and property of every man in the United States; nor can the constitution or laws of any state, in any way prevent or impede the full and complete execution of every power given.Welfare affects lives and prosperity of every man in the United States. Anyone who needs Welfare can get it. Both the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers are about differing views of the constutition. This arguement about differing views of the constitution has been going on for years, and it will never end. Wasn't it George Washington though who warned of a two party system? More discussion about this mundane arguement will only waste room on the board. You have far from won, I just refuse to fight something that will never be settled, it only causes useless wars. Oh, and I'm truly serious about what I said at the beginning of this post. If you really feel that your way is right, then start a revolution. Have fun when they subdue you though. P.S. Just because I haven't gone to college doesn't mean I haven't studied government, the constitution, or the Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers. Like I said, I'm a rare breed, I started giving a damn about the direction this country is headed in when I was 14. [ 12-19-2002, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: Cmdr. WeeGee ]
DraconisRex Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 After reading that article Reno posted, it puts a little credability (enough to put up a flag anyway) to some of what the Conspiracy buffs were saying about the pathway America seems to be following. Scary stuff, folks. If they start dealing with any of our local citizens the same way they're dealing with the immigrants, you will know at that point that we now have an American 'SS' right here at home.... At that point, I don't know if we can resolve the problem peacefully. The US Supreme Court is about to address the 2nd Amendment rights of gun-owners and militias. So long as the 2nd Amendment stays intact, then they can't take away our guns. Now, I've heard from some directions that gun-control laws are unconstitutional. Actually, they're not, because Congress has the power to regulate commerce, which means they can tell companies what types of weapons they can make, and what groups of people/companies/agencies have the authority to purchase a given weapon type. This includes imported weapons. There are no restrictions on what laws States can impose on gun-owners, except to the extent of: * Prohibiting private ownership of firearms * Requiring the mandatory surrender of all privately held firearms The laws States can pass are: * Registration of all firearms * Licensing of all firearm owners * Prohibiting private ownership certain types of firearms * Requiring "trigger lock" devices * Requiring gun buyer background checks at gun shows * Enhanced penalties for gun-related crimes While I doubt I will find agreement from all quarters in this forum, what I just stated is the legal position as it currently stands. So long as nothing changes the 2nd Amendment, this will remain true forever....
Menchise Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 Remo's article inspired me to add another quote: ---------------------------------------------- "...I came from Detroit and I was driven to the airport by an American citizen of Lebanese descent. On September 12th, he was arrested by the FBI and held 27 days incommunicado. His crime: he took flight lessons. An American citizen was held incommunicado for 27 days! He didn't commit a crime. Now people can say "well, you know - gosh! - we were attacked!" No, ladies and gentleman, the second we allow the United States government to treat American citizens in this fashion, to violate the due process of law, we cease to be America!" - Scott Ritter
Guest Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 I have a few Quotes for you WeeGee. These are from James Madison, the man who WROTE the constitution. quote: Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government. quote: I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations. quote: Democracy is the most vile form of government... democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention: have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property: and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. quote: It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood. quote: Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. quote: If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare... they may appoint teachers in every state... The powers of Congress would subvert the very foundation, the very nature of the limited government established by the people of America. See the limited government phrase in there WeeGee? quote: [T]he real measure of the powers meant to be granted to Congress by the Constitution is to be sought in the specifications, to be expounded, indeed, not with the strictness applied to an ordinary statute by a court of law, nor, on the other hand, with a latitude that, under the name of means for carrying into execution a limited Government, would transform it into a Government without limits. quote: The two vital characteristics of the political system of the United States are, first, that the Government holds its powers by a charter granted to it by the people; second, that the powers of government are formed in two grand divisions -- one vested in a Government over the whole community, the other in a number of independent Governments over its component parts. Hitherto charters have been written grants of privileges by Governments to the people. Here they are written grants of power by the people to their Governments. quote: In 1794, when Congress appropriated $15,000 for relief of French refugees who fled from insurrection in San Domingo to Baltimore and Philadelphia, James Madison stood on the floor of the House to object saying, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." Notice the one above, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT. quote: [T]he powers of the federal government are enumerated; it can only operate in certain cases; it has legislative powers on defined and limited objects, beyond which it cannot extend its jurisdiction. quote: " The government of the United States is a definite government, confined to specified objects. It is not like state governments, whose powers are more general. Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government." Well, you don't seem to believe me, do you believe that ACTUAL AUTHOR OF THE CONSTITUTION? Or how about Thomas Jefferson? quote: "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." quote: "I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground that 'all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states or to the people.' To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power not longer susceptible of any definition." quote: "A wise and frugal government ... shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government." quote: "I see,... and with the deepest affliction, the rapid strides with which the federal branch of our government is advancing towards the usurpation of all the rights reserved to the States, and the consolidation in itself of all powers, foreign and domestic; and that, too, by constructions which, if legitimate, leave no limits to their power... It is but too evident that the three ruling branches of [the Federal government] are in combination to strip their colleagues, the State authorities, of the powers reserved by them, and to exercise themselves all functions foreign and domestic." quote: "[The purpose of a written constitution is] to bind up the several branches of government by certain laws, which, when they transgress, their acts shall become nullities; to render unnecessary an appeal to the people, or in other words a rebellion, on every infraction of their rights, on the peril that their acquiescence shall be construed into an intention to surrender those rights." quote: The greatest [calamity] which could befall [us would be] submission to a government of unlimited powers." I think that is enough for you to wrap your mind around for a while.
weegee_101 Posted December 19, 2002 Report Posted December 19, 2002 My god, what part of this don't you understand. quote:Originally Posted by Myself: This arguement about differing views of the constitution has been going on for years, and it will never end.Its been going on since the constitution was ratified. There were two understandings when the constitution was ratified. It was Madison's own damn fault that he didn't say what he meant in thoses words until after it was ratified. This should have been settled before the ratification of the Constitution. The whole idea, as I understand it, to replace the Articles of the Confederation is because they quickly found out that a confederation isn't what was needed. Many of the forefathers felt we should be forever united as a nation, not seperately governed states. They also felt the exhisting national government was weaker than it should be. We are a REPUBLIC. There is a difference between a republic and a confederation. While both are united, many forefathers wanted the nations government to be the supreme law of the land. Thus the supremacy clause was created. Not to mention the constitution was written by one man, but created by many. All of our founding fathers had and equal amount of say in the creation of our constitution. This argument will never end. Its the whole reason we even have a two party system. You have your thoughts, I have mine. Mine are here to stay with me, and no one, unless they are truly convincing, as you are not, will change them. If you really want to convince me, give me quotes from all of our forefathers that say that the government can't create its own laws. Oh, and just because Madison says he doesn't support the government giving charities, doesn't mean that its unconstitutional. He may have written it on paper, but he sure isn't the constitution itself. [ 12-19-2002, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Cmdr. WeeGee ]
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