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How to be a good liberal.

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Guest $iLk

An interesting guide if you are seriously considering becoming a liberal, or a good litmus test to see if you are liberal enough.

Can be found here.

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Sorry to turn a light-hearted topic serious but...

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In order to be a good liberal you have to believe...

that there were no charities before welfare,

Charities would be fine if enough people donated enough money to them!

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that there was no art before federal funding,


Once upon a time, running costs were so low that galleries could make enough money from donations and other sources to break even. Unfortunately those days are no longer with us.

Since art galleries aren't really businesses in the general sense, they have no real way of being able to break even in today's conditions, and therefore need extra funding to remain open.

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that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high,


The difference between taxes and ATM fees is that the people who collect taxes (ie. the government) are representatives of everybody (or at least everybody who voted for them), the people who collect the ATM fees (ie. the bank) are not.

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that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding,


No, but AIDS can be countered by funding of programs that increase awareness of it, provide free condoms, etc.

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that the United States must not make the decision to defend itself by itself; it must first get permission from the U.N.,


We're talking about Iraq here, right?

Well, i think anyone with access to a fair and balanced news source (laughs at FOX), would realise that Iraq wasn't in a position to attack anyone.

Intelligence "failures" this big just don't happen - it must've come from the top.

Because of that, Tony Blair's in the poop, Jos├® Maria Aznar is in the poop, John Howard is in the poop - the only reason Bush isn't in the poop is the Democrats aren't pursuing the issue (*makes chicken noises*)

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that the only people worthy of being a leader, especially president, are those who display our definition of intelligence, which is: showing signs of being an analytical, reflective, self-doubting, slow-acting intellectual who accepts, and adheres religiously to, modern liberal doctrines, including the following:


Well, would you want an idiot who jumps to the wrong conclusion with his finger on the button?

uh, actually...

nah, i think you already know it

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that all generalizations are false,


ALL of them?? i don't think anybody genuinely thinks that every last generalisation is false. However, it's extremely hard to make accurate generalisations - if you get it wrong, you're very very out of position and will look really dumb

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that there are absolutely no absolutes,


See above

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that you can be sure that nothing is certain,


See above

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that it's really bad, even evil, to make or pronounce moral judgments,


Logical judgments are far better than moral ones - emotion should have no role in a judgment since it automatically gives a judgment bias.

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that identifying individuals by their uniqueness is "racist," but identifying them only as a member of a race is not,


I guess that depends on the wording you use

Anyway, as a young, white male, i'm no fan of excessive political correctness

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that the independent broadcasters who give us 500+ TV channels can't deliver the quality that PBS does,


No comment - i don't know enough about that situation

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that good economies are caused by politicians and not by entrepreneurs,


Politicians create the conditions for the economy to work in with their policies, then the entrepreneurs will do their thing - it's about 50:50

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that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity,


It's true in the sense that business try to hire workers for a small a wage as possible - employers don't seem to realise that if a worker is worrying about making ends meet (or has to take a second job), he/she isn't going to be as productive due to physical and emotional stress. Employers also don't seem to realise that providing a good healthcare plan is an investment - workers receiving good healthcare don't need as much time off when they fall ill therefore are more productive and are less likely to inadvertently spread any illness to coworkers.

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that farmers, ranchers, hunters and fishermen don't care about nature and the long-term survival of species, but "animal rights" activists who've never been outside the city do,


I can't speak for everyone, but fish stocks in the North Atlantic have fallen to dangerous levels - fish aren't being given enough time to reproduce and there's a danger they could be completely wiped out

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that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the earth's climate and in the cycles of the sun, and more affected by yuppies driving SUVs,


Are you saying we should all drive SUVs and pump more fumes into the air?

The weather's gone pretty off-kilter in the last few years in parts of the world - cyclical, documented changes in the earth's climate are gradual to the point where they are almost inperceptible - they aren't sudden like the human-induced climate changes

Let's just hope the EPA leaks the section of the report on global warming the White House removed

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that people who drive cars are bad, but people who ride buses or trains are good,


Nobody's saying they're bad, but a bus put out about as much pollution as two cars, and when full, holds about 50 people, it's like taking 25 cars off the road (assuming nobody's sharing a car)

A train will hold about 1,000 people when full, and depending on their power source, produces as much pollution as about 10-25 cars

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that people who live in single-family homes (or want to) are bad, but people who live in high-density apartments (or admit they ought to) are good,


Uh, can somebody give me a pointer on this one?

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that the thinning of forests by lumber companies and forestry workers "destroys habitat," while burning it down in its entirety by allowing unhindered forest fires makes animals "thrive,"


I see where the confusion occurs on this issue

Forest fires are a natural occurence, and have happened long before there were humans

think of it as like a PC that progressively gets slower (like most PCs nowadays)

a forest fire is nature's reset button, and allows new plants to replace the old ones

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that American corporations' drilling for oil in "environmentally sensitive" areas is bad, but paying billions of dollars to moslem countries for their oil is better,


Two things:

firstly, the environmental point - most OPEC countries are in deserts, so the environmental impact is minimal

secondly, not all Moslem nations are like the Taliban (i detect a bit of a racist tone in that quote) - many are democratic and have adopted western values alongside their Islamic traditions (Qatar is a good example)

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that the entire earth is an "environmentally sensitive" area,


Most of it is - that's why companies need to be more efficient with their energy usage (besides, efficiency = reduced overheads)

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that Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, George Washington Carver or Thomas Edison,


I can't comment - i was never taught US history

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that any person or any country which has a higher standard of living than any other must have achieved it as a matter of luck, not freedom, opportunity, foresight and work -- and must feel guilty about it -- but if they're not, they must be forced to "pay" for their good fortune in a manner which we (who feel guilty for them anyway) will decide is best,


First part - it's true that most rich countries are blessed with lots of exportable natural resources, but i don't think many people would disagree that freedom, opportunity, foresight and work have their part too.

Second part - nobody should feel guilty for making a truckload of money - unless they did it illegally, or simply screwed everyone as closely to breaking the law as possible. However, i feel that the rich should pay extra tax since they can afford it and aren't going to have trouble making ends meet (unless they happen to go by the name of Mike Tyson )

On a side note: I believe that entrepreneurs who built up a large fortune instead of inheriting it or gaining it via a windfall should be eligible to a lower rate of tax

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that there is only one moral code, and it is the pure altruism of the self-sacrifice: first-foremost-only-and-always kind,


Doesn't the church preach that too?

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that the only people who should decide which sacrifices anyone must make are the ones in government,


One of the advantages the government has, is being better able to see the big picture. Also, the government, since it represents the people, should be able to act in their best interest, if that means sacrifice, then so be it.

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that private citizens should not be allowed to choose their doctors, their childrens' schools, where they live, what foods they eat, where and if they smoke, and when they speak or write: which "politically correct" words they may use and which "incorrect" ones they may not -- without your help,


Hmm, sounds like the "liberals don't like freedom" rant - they like freedom just as much as everyone else does goddammit!

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that there is no such thing as a "sovereign citizen." In fact, there is no such thing as "inalienable rights," only permissions from government,


See above

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that everything not forbidden should be mandatory, and everything not mandatory should be forbidden,


Isn't that a bit simplistic?

I guess conservatives aren't used to complicated solutions for complicated problems

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that trial lawyers are selfless heroes and doctors are overpaid,


I'll pass on this one too - i don't know enough to comment

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that Robin Hood should be remembered for "robbing the rich to give to the poor" (because that was "good"), even though it wasn't his motive, and not for "taking back from the taxors and giving back to the taxees" (because that's always bad), even though it was,


So taxing the poor IS a bad thing after all?

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that recessions and depressions are caused by businessmen, and not by politicians and bureaucrats,


i think the responsibility there is 50:50 too

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that it would be vastly preferably to risk destroying the economy of the United States even in wartime than to allow drilling in areas which might risk the well-being of wildlife,


This situation would never have come about if the corporate-backed right had not blocked attempts to shift away from dependency on fossil fuels

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that FDR must be remembered for "ending the great depression," even though he didn't (in fact he made it worse), and for giving half the people "hope," even though he decimated the Constitution and gave the other half despair,


FDR made the depression worse?? When he was elected, the unemployment rate was 23%, by the time the next Republican president took over, it was down to 2.5%

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that the explosions in medical and prescription drug costs since 1965 have been caused by greedy doctors and drug companies and not by medicare, HMO subsidies and labyrinthine government regulations,


I can believe that

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that you can acquire self-esteem without actually doing something to earn it or living up to a code of ethics,


Did he really just say that??

That sounds almost like a Coulter-like slander of the left

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that public schools must be given ever-more money and protection from competition, no matter how poorly they perform,


Schools aren't private businesses!!

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that intolerance may be horrible, but "zero tolerance" is wonderful,


Hmm, depends on what you're tolerating or not tolerating

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that social changes must be made by classroom propaganda and coercion, not by persuasion, and certainly NOT by example,


Is that your way of saying you want education funding cut, or are you just pissed that so many well-educated people lean to the left, leaving the right with all the hicks who can count the number of days at school on one hand, even if they're missing fingers

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that it is racist to be color-blind and that good policy is to be color conscious -- in fact to identify people ONLY as a member of a group,


Is that a veiled attack on affirmative action?

Well, it's sad that minorities are still disadvantaged - affirmative action attempts to put that right

However, i don't believe that universities should have to reach quotas of minority students - i think the affirmative action system can work in a better way than that.

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that all cultures are precious, must be preserved at all costs, and must all be treated as equal, not because of their outcomes, but because we say so,


Well, all cultures are precious and should (not must) be preserved - and it's not about the fact we say so, which is just another sleight against the left - as i've said several times, the left cherishes freedom as much as the right (if not more )

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that the new ideal paradigm to be established is "multi-cultural diversity", which means making sure every organization has at least one black liberal, one militant-feminist liberal, one gay liberal, one Latino liberal, one transgender liberal, one Native American liberal, and so forth. The one kind of diversity NOT permitted is diversity of philosophy, politics, views or values (especially merit- or accomplishment-consciousness),


Ha ha!

So you have a problem with everyone having a voice?

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that, since hatred is horrible, it's okay to hate haters. And independent people. And SUV-owners. And gun owners. And business people. And the merit-conscious. And other individualists. And any other politically incorrect policy advocates. And whoever else it's chic to hate today. In fact the new definition of "hater" is "anyone who disagrees with us."


So you like haters?

Side note: the "new" definition of "hater" seems to be used more by the Bush administration, although they prefer the word "unpatriotic"

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that it's shocking -- and worthy of detailed, damning and deliciously horrifying expos├®s -- to find that free-market scholars are actually able to fund their work with voluntary donations from wealthy individuals -- while it's pleasing to find that socialist scholars are able to fund their work "virtuously" with tax money (extracted from their opponents -- and victims -- by government coercion),


Well, the big businesses who fund those studies see them as an investment - and that means they'll make their money back and then some

just like when they support a political party or candidate

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that CHANGE is good -- but ONLY so long as it is change TO liberal values FROM other values,


Well, if you don't like the progression to more liberal values, which stop would you get off on the reverse-progess train then?

the days before the Clean Air / Clean Water act?

the days before Medicare?

the days before the Voting Rights act?

the days before the Civil Rights act?

the days before the Fair Labor Standards act?

the days before Social Security?

the days before women could vote?

the days of "seperate but equal"?

the days of legal child labor?

the days of slavery?

the pre-revolution days?

take your pick

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that people who resist your vision of social change should be jailed,


Uh, you do know that liberals believe in freedom of speech, right?

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that everyone who believes in free markets is a religious conservative (or if we know better, we pretend we don't -- since we don't want the general public to know about libertarians),


Is that free markets that work for everyone, or just the rich?

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that everyone who believes in civil liberties is a big-government liberal (or if we know better, we still don't want the general public to know about libertarians),


Yeah? well everyone who supports the Patriot act is a cheap-labor conservative!

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that the ancient left-right political spectrum must be defended as the only yardstick for evaluating ideologies because (unlike the Nolan Chart, for example) the old left-right one conveniently implies that "the democratic ideal" is nothing more than a compromise between socialism and fascism, and so the ONLY question is "WHAT KIND of huge, powerful, all-pervasive government do you want?",


Who said that?

that's the first i've heard of it

quote:

that black people can't succeed without your help, but those who do, or tell others they can, must be vilified as "Uncle Toms,"


Hey! that was Robert Mugabe - dictator-pretending-to-be-a-socialist of Zimbabwe (and someone who appears to have a Hitler-moustache from certain angles)

Mugabe isn't interested in helping out the poor Zimbabweans, even though he says he does - he is interested in holding onto power using whatever methods needed, and giving his cronies the land that should be going to the poor

he is no leftist

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that the NRA is bad, because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good, because it supports certain parts of the Constitution,


no, the NRA is bad because it supports guns for everybody - even if they're not all there upstairs (*thinks of Heston* )

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that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than U.S. nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese communists,


I think the communist government in China realises that starting World War 3 isn't in their best interest, however, i don't think some hick would realise that shooting his wife/best friend over the last beer wouldn't be in their best interest either

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that more people are killed by guns than are saved by gun owners simply brandishing their weapons,


Where the hell did that statistic come from?

Did the guy just pull that one outta his ass?

There is NO way anyone can gather a statistic like that

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that even though there are 54,000,000 children under 16 in the U.S., and you can never achieve "zero" accidental deaths from drowning, choking, fires, falls, poisoning, motor vehicles and medical mistakes, you can somehow achieve zero from firearm accidents (perhaps because there are always so many fewer of them every year),


I guess that means that restrictions on firearms are working then!

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that corporations are more dangerous than governments -- even when they haven't been sold a government-protected monopoly and can't make you buy from them, and even though the federal government is about one thousand times the size of the largest corporations and has guns, jails, IRS kangaroo courts, and can and does make you buy from it or deal with it,


Like i said earlier, if you don't like the government, you can always vote it out

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that the quantity of natural resources in all of existence remains finite, and will always run out unless government controls its use and mandates horse-and-buggy "substitutes",


Well, natural resources ARE finite! anyone with a brain can figure out that one!

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that the quantity of wealth in all of existence remains fixed, and always has from time immemorial, so only people in government should decide how it's allocated,


*laughs his ass off*

Liberals and Communists aren't the same thing!

now write that 200 times!

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that any attempt to tax successful entrepreneurs at less than 100% of their incomes must be met with horrified screams of "giveaway! giveaway!! giveaway!!!"


See above

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that businessmen are parasites, but politicians and bureaucrats are not,


Businessmen have only one prority - the bottom line

Also, you can't vote out businessmen

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that people who work in the private sector are evil, but people who work in government are saints,


Damn, even my dead pet rabbit wouldn't swallow that

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that a contract can mean anything any time anybody wants it to, especially if it's named "The Constitution of the United States",


do a search on the right's position on Dred Scott v. Sandford and you'll see how much respect they have for the consitution

if you can't be bothered - read about the 1984, uh, Patriot act (sorry - couldn't resist!)

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that private citizens are too stupid to make their own decisions about anything, but people in government are too smart not to give them dictatorial powers over everything,


So does that mean the right is pro-dictatorship then?

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that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried, is because "the right people" haven't been in charge,


Not everybody on the left is a Socialist - that's like calling everyone on the right a Nazi!

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that the only answer to the millions of problems caused by government -- is always ... ("ta-da!") more government (of course!),


You guys don't really want smaller government - you just want the social safety net for the poor removed so they're desperate enough to work for peanuts

Somehow i doubt smaller government would remove the departments that help keep big business on their feet such as the ones listed below (shamelessly copied from elsewhere)

For examples of basic legal infrastructure, try these:

The Judicial System

Land Records

Corporation laws

US Patent Office

The Banking System

Negotiable Instruments

Stable Currency

Property and Contract Rights

How about physical infrastructure ÔÇô all the way back to the days of George Washington.

Erie Canal

Transcontinental Railroad

Hoover Dam

Tennessee Valley Authority

Roads

Sewer, Water and Power Grids

Interstate Highways

Air Traffic Control

Communication and Weather Satellites

Government subsidized research and development into aeronautics, jet propulsion, radar, transistors, semi-conductors, and donÔÇÖt forget the internet.

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that the only choices Americans are given by the Republicans and Democrats include having to choose between legal abortions and "overkill" security from international terrorists (ignoring the fact that Libertarians support BOTH Constitutional security measures and states' rights to legalize or outlaw abortions),


huh??

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that contributions to the Democratic Party by the Chinese Communists are in the best interests of the United States,


There's that goddam Democrats=Communists comparison again - does anyone really believe that? (i know lots of people WANT to believe it, but that doesn't mean they really do)

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that both "hard" and "soft"-money contributions to the campaigns of politicans by Americans are not in the best interests of the United States because they are always initiated by the donors as bribes and never by the politicians as a "protection racket,"


Well, it would explain why Kenny boy Lay still hasn't been indicted, and how Halliburton got those Iraq contracts while the competition was frozen out...

...like i said earlier, big business sees donations as an investment

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that people who get upset about the misuse of the FBI, the military, the BATF and the IRS belong in jail, but that the misusers, liars and Constitution- violators belong in the White House,


Ooh! that was vicious!

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that William J. Clinton, as a wonderful president, should not be remembered for any misdeeds at all, but if he is, it should be only for the sexual ones, and not for any of those other things,


Let me just point out five things:

1 - He presided over the biggest economic expansion in US history

2 - He helped broker peace in Northern Ireland and the Middle East (although the latter unfortunately fell apart

3 - He successfully reversed the Reagan/Bush Sr budget deficits and created budget surpluses so big there was talk of paying off the entire national debt in a decade

4 - He is the only president not to send a soldier into battle that never came back - Bush Sr sent the soldiers into Somalia

5 - Clinton's private life was not the business of the entire world - cheating on your wife isn't against the law

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that it would better to see civilization destroyed than to see your cherished beliefs in cultural equivalency and moral ambivalence dismissed,


One cannot survive without the other in the modern world

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that you must be a knee-jerk "pass a law!" big-government control-freak in order to get any poor people or any "good" people -- especially the professionally unselfish "saintly" people -- to even like you, let alone to love you,


You mean like the Patriot act?

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and last, but definitely not least -- that good intentions are all that are needed to pave the way to utopia, especially if all your friends have the same good intentions.


Nooooooooo!

it's good actions based upon good intentions that are needed!

I think that's a good enough rebuttal!

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quote:


FDR made the depression worse?? When he was elected, the unemployment rate was 23%, by the time the next Republican president took over, it was down to 2.5%

Unemployement rates do not necessarily reflect economic growth. FDR simply created a massive number of government organizations and absorbed the unemployed into them and thus redueced the unemployement rate, this doesn't mean that things were better than before because the money to pay these people had to come from somewhere: either higher taxes or borrowing money from foreign soruces. What this resulted in was a deficit and eventually the debt probelm we have today. In the short term what he did jumpstarted the economic cycle but in the long run it just created more problems.

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quote:

Originally posted by Eclipse:

quote:

FDR made the depression worse?? When he was elected, the unemployment rate was 23%, by the time the next Republican president took over, it was down to 2.5%

Unemployement rates do not necessarily reflect economic growth. FDR simply created a massive number of government organizations and absorbed the unemployed into them and thus redueced the unemployement rate, this doesn't mean that things were better than before because the money to pay these people had to come from somewhere: either higher taxes or borrowing money from foreign soruces. What this resulted in was a deficit and eventually the debt probelm we have today. In the short term what he did jumpstarted the economic cycle but in the long run it just created more problems.


I'm not sure there was a better solution. FYI Canada did the same thing over here. Borrowed tons of cash to make roads and stuff that wasn't REALLY needed, but it gave work and money to people.

.. and you have to consider that world war 2 did increased the debt by enormous amounts. The money to make all those tanks, aircrafts and ships HAD to come from SOMEWHERE ... As opposed to germany, the united states didn't piled up weapons and supplies for years before the war ...

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdhisto3.htm

US debt in june 1929 (before the crash) 16,931,088,484.10

US debt in june 1939 (at the end of the depression) 40,439,532,411.11

2.39 times what it was at first

On december 8 1941, the united states declared war on Japan, the declaration of war on Germany followed 3 days later

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/japwar.html

june just before that, the us debt was at 48,961,443,535.71

then in the year of 1945, both germany (may 7) and japan (sept 2) have been reduced to a surrender, ending the war with a debt of 258,682,187,409.93

which is 5.28 times what it was at the start of the war ....

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that people who live in single-family homes (or want to) are bad, but people who live in high-density apartments (or admit they ought to) are good,

Uh, can somebody give me a pointer on this one?

It means that single-family homeowners are selfishly hogging the square feet that could have gone to house many people.

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You know what they say Steve.

If you are not liberal when you are between 18 and 35 you have no heart, but if you are not conservative after that, then you have no brains.

Guess what? That means I have no heart.

Pretty sad, huh?

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LOL, Nah, if brain size were comparable to how conservative you were, my brain would be as big as those aliens in the Start Trek episode "The Cage".

Sometimes carrying all that weight on my shoulders is uncomfortable...

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quote:

Charities would be fine if enough people donated enough money to them!

And people would be more likely to donate if they had more money, and people would have more money if half of it didn't automatically go to the government.

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Once upon a time, running costs were so low that galleries could make enough money from donations and other sources to break even. Unfortunately those days are no longer with us.

Since art galleries aren't really businesses in the general sense, they have no real way of being able to break even in today's conditions, and therefore need extra funding to remain open.


In europe they're still quite popular and, even, profitable. Art has been so discouraged by the government and government-run educational instituitions that not enough people in america CARE enough any more for them to be self-sufficient. The idea that government sponsers them at all astounds me. Government is the reason that such institutions cannot be operated independantly of the government.

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The difference between taxes and ATM fees is that the people who collect taxes (ie. the government) are representatives of everybody (or at least everybody who voted for them), the people who collect the ATM fees (ie. the bank) are not.

Taxes are very often innappropriately used, or used in ways that large chunks of the population may not agree with. IMO, there is no such thing as a representative government, because there will always be a minority who does not agree. ATM fees are merely capitolism at work.

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No, but AIDS can be countered by funding of programs that increase awareness of it, provide free condoms, etc.

Blood transfusion contamination and inheritance (born with it compliments of infected parent) aside, this disease would not and could not spread if people would choose and keep only one sexual partner over the coarse of their lives (widowing remairrages notwithstanding). Sexual promiscuity and irresponsibility is SOLELY responsible for the continuuing spread of the disease.

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We're talking about Iraq here, right?

Well, i think anyone with access to a fair and balanced news source (laughs at FOX), would realise that Iraq wasn't in a position to attack anyone.

Intelligence "failures" this big just don't happen - it must've come from the top.

Because of that, Tony Blair's in the poop, Jos├® Maria Aznar is in the poop, John Howard is in the poop - the only reason Bush isn't in the poop is the Democrats aren't pursuing the issue (*makes chicken noises*)

There were a multitude of reasons for attacking of Iraq. Liberals would have you have believe that there was but one, and it was incorrect. Saddam harboured terrorists, opressed (and even murdered) his people, was a continuing threat to our allies (including Isreal), and had an ongoing weapons development program.

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Well, would you want an idiot who jumps to the wrong conclusion with his finger on the button?

uh, actually...

nah, i think you already know it

What wrong conclusion was that? Were Bush a liberal the same crowd that is slandering him would be applauding him for his bravery and strength. See above, but I restate: "Liberals would have you have believe that there was but one, and it was incorrect."

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ALL of them?? i don't think anybody genuinely thinks that every last generalisation is false. However, it's extremely hard to make accurate generalisations - if you get it wrong, you're very very out of position and will look really dumb

Generalizations are not, and never were, meant as absolute statements. Generalizations are (sometimes metaphorical) statements are USUALLY[/} true - or true for the majority. Ex: "People who drive slow and keep too much empty space in front of them are usually asians or old people." This statement is a generalization because it is usually true... but there are ALWAYS exceptions. Liberals also like to twist words, for example A liberal would quickly twist the above statement into "Old people and asians drive too slow and keep too much space in front of them" and accuse you of being and racist and sexist, when that is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT STATEMENT.

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Logical judgments are far better than moral ones - emotion should have no role in a judgment since it automatically gives a judgment bias.

Moral conclusions are based on logic. However, the liberal does not like the implications of said moral conclusions and so by branding a moral ideal as religious zealotry, a liberal can ignore the logic behind it and invent his own. For instance... (using the aids argument) 'having lots of sex partners is good, so instead of abstinance, we'll just promote 'safe sex' and hand out condoms.' For sooth, the safest sex is none at all.

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Politicians create the conditions for the economy to work in with their policies, then the entrepreneurs will do their thing - it's about 50:50

Conservative politicians create the conditions for the economy to work... liberal politicians serve their own interests... making money and staying in power. Buisness creates economy, when politicians make buisnesses to expensive to turn profit, said buisnesses leave... taking with them the revenue that the government was leeching. It's simple buisness... you can charge more and sell less, or charge less and sell more. If you charge too much, you sell nothing and lose customers... and definately don't win over any new customers. Greed overcomes logic and the bad buisnessman raises prices to gain more profit, but in terms of competition is shooting himself in the foot. That's why California is in such deep stuff right now.

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It's true in the sense that business try to hire workers for a small a wage as possible - employers don't seem to realise that if a worker is worrying about making ends meet (or has to take a second job), he/she isn't going to be as productive due to physical and emotional stress. Employers also don't seem to realise that providing a good healthcare plan is an investment - workers receiving good healthcare don't need as much time off when they fall ill therefore are more productive and are less likely to inadvertently spread any illness to coworkers.

Many buisnessness just can't afford it any more. Due to fees, taxes, and government programs like worker's comp, many buisnesses just can't afford to affer those extra benefits to their employees. It's not always a matter of greed, with our government it has become a matter of survival.

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I can't speak for everyone, but fish stocks in the North Atlantic have fallen to dangerous levels - fish aren't being given enough time to reproduce and there's a danger they could be completely wiped out.

Actually, I completely agree. This is a situation where greed has conquered common sense. In the fish market, companies KNOW that they're fishing fish out of existence... but they don't care. Right now, the popularity of seafood is at an all-time high... especially with the popularity of sushi in North America... and so it's extremely lucrative. Seafood is already very expensive, but if it dosn't exist at all in ten years everyone loses. Part of the problem, too is polution. Oil rigs are relatively clean... in fact, sea life thrives near oil rigs (I hate hearing people say otherwise, as it's absolutely the opposite of true). Most of the damaging polution in the ocean comes from gas-powered boats and toxic runoff from the mainland. In just a few hours of opperation, a boat produces 2x more polutions than an SUV does in a year.

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Are you saying we should all drive SUVs and pump more fumes into the air?

The weather's gone pretty off-kilter in the last few years in parts of the world - cyclical, documented changes in the earth's climate are gradual to the point where they are almost inperceptible - they aren't sudden like the human-induced climate changes

Let's just hope the EPA leaks the section of the report on global warming the White House removed


This is another liberal lie, but slightly different than you may expect. Environmental changes are NOT slow or imperceivable as many would have you believe. Often, environmental changes are rapid and sometimes violent. Pollution and exposure to UV rays (a result of eating a hole in the ozone) will cause cancer and irreversible genetic damage in humans and animals... but has little to nothing to do with global warming. For all we know, earth's orbit could be slowly degenerating closer to the sun!

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Nobody's saying they're bad, but a bus put out about as much pollution as two cars, and when full, holds about 50 people, it's like taking 25 cars off the road (assuming nobody's sharing a car)

A train will hold about 1,000 people when full, and depending on their power source, produces as much pollution as about 10-25 cars

Subways and electrical trains are an ideal means of transportation. Buses, which are stastically NEVER at full capacity (if you consider all buses nationwide), produce an extraordinary ammount of pollution. Pollution actually helps plants thrive, but it's horrible for living creatures. IMO, people need to carpool more often, and drive and take the bus a LOT less. This would decrease traffic congestion AND polution. But as I've already aluded, I'm more concerned with boats than cars.

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Uh, can somebody give me a pointer on this one?

NFC

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I see where the confusion occurs on this issue

Forest fires are a natural occurence, and have happened long before there were humans

think of it as like a PC that progressively gets slower (like most PCs nowadays)

a forest fire is nature's reset button, and allows new plants to replace the old ones

Agreed.

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Two things:

firstly, the environmental point - most OPEC countries are in deserts, so the environmental impact is minimal

secondly, not all Moslem nations are like the Taliban (i detect a bit of a racist tone in that quote) - many are democratic and have adopted western values alongside their Islamic traditions (Qatar is a good example)

Drilling for oil has very little or no environmental impact on the environment whatsoever. We're not turning forrests into fields of oil wells here... in the case of ocean drilling, the effects are actually POSITIVE rather than negative. The real problems come from ships, especially old decrepit ships that , from time to time, spill oil and destroy entire ecosystems.

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Most of it is - that's why companies need to be more efficient with their energy usage (besides, efficiency = reduced overheads)

Population expansion is a major problem. I don't ever want myself or my decendants to live on a giant city-planet out of Star Wars. We're destroying far too much of the environment for building houses... it's destroying beautiful forest, plains, lakes... either for the wood or space to build new condos. It's wrong.

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First part - it's true that most rich countries are blessed with lots of exportable natural resources, but i don't think many people would disagree that freedom, opportunity, foresight and work have their part too.

Second part - nobody should feel guilty for making a truckload of money - unless they did it illegally, or simply screwed everyone as closely to breaking the law as possible. However, i feel that the rich should pay extra tax since they can afford it and aren't going to have trouble making ends meet (unless they happen to go by the name of Mike Tyson )

On a side note: I believe that entrepreneurs who built up a large fortune instead of inheriting it or gaining it via a windfall should be eligible to a lower rate of tax

Agreed, agreed, agreed. But the problem is that the middle class ends up getting the oppressive heavy heel of the government as well. If you are considered any level of middle class in america, you will find that 1) The government will tax you more and 2) The government will help you less. For instance, a middle class family may find it difficult, if not impossible, to send their child(ren) to college, whereas a lower class family will often have no problem - as the government foots the bill due to their lower income. It's actually more difficult to make ends meet at a middle class citizen than a lower class citizen!

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Doesn't the church preach that too?

Depends on the church.

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One of the advantages the government has, is being better able to see the big picture. Also, the government, since it represents the people, should be able to act in their best interest, if that means sacrifice, then so be it.

The government rarely acts in the people's best interests. The government acts in the best interests of those who RUN the government... to ensure that they stay wealthy and in power. The problem with government today is that they never see the big picture, they see interest groups and percentages... focus on popular issues... little pieces of a much, much, much bigger picture.

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Hmm, sounds like the "liberals don't like freedom" rant - they like freedom just as much as everyone else does goddammit!

Yes, liberals do like freedom, so long as their in charge of the status quo. Think about it, who invented the term 'politically incorrect?' Who argues that kids get taught evolution, but nothing else? Who wants to take your money if you like it or not? This all rolls back to the idea that liberals are powermongers and want to control you. Since they're at the top of the food chain, they can enjoy all the 'freedom' they want.

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Isn't that a bit simplistic?

I guess conservatives aren't used to complicated solutions for complicated problems

I'd say precisely the same thing about liberals. The issues are always more complex than they like to believe. Liberalism can be a blind religious zealotry more potent than islamic extremism.

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So taxing the poor IS a bad thing after all?

Taxation in general is a bad thing. To some extent, however, it's a necessary evil. But a population should want to support it's government - as when this country was founded. At the moment, the US takes a little more than 50% of a middle class families income when all is said and done. That is WRONG.

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This situation would never have come about if the corporate-backed right had not blocked attempts to shift away from dependency on fossil fuels

Ohhh, sneaky... that is, if you know what you're saying. Corporate america is neither left nor right. They serve their own interests. I think we should be shifting over to alternate power sources like hydrogen fuel cells and electric or kinetic power... but that's (1) Not an immediate switch and during wartime we need oil NOW and (2) Not at all lucrative as everything is in place to harvest & distribute fossil fuels... it's a cash cow... switching costs money and *gasp* we can't have that.

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Schools aren't private businesses!!

And they should be. Buisnesses that don't perform go out of buisness.

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Hmm, depends on what you're tolerating or not tolerating

And that's the problem, selective 'tolerance'(and the left does the selecting).

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Is that your way of saying you want education funding cut, or are you just pissed that so many well-educated people lean to the left, leaving the right with all the hicks who can count the number of days at school on one hand, even if they're missing fingers

Another shameless attempt at discrediting an opposing viewpoint. You have just used the 'liberals are smart and conservatives are dumb' and 'you're just jealous' arguments... both of which will get you crucified in a debate class. Calling all conservatives hicks was a sweeping generalization (which I covered earlier) and an invalid argument. In fact, conservatives are generally more highly educated than liberals due to a much higher rate of private schooling. HOWEVER, like all public institutions of education, virtually the entire college and university system leans heavily left. People who are raised in such a system, and told the same story their whole life, are programmed to be liberal and narrow minded... not to think for themselves or question authority. To accept the ideals of party, blindly, and faithfully. Truely intelligent people... free thinkers and philosphers... artists... they tend to be the conservatives.

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Is that a veiled attack on affirmative action?

Well, it's sad that minorities are still disadvantaged - affirmative action attempts to put that right

However, i don't believe that universities should have to reach quotas of minority students - i think the affirmative action system can work in a better way than that.

Affirmative action is a greater wrong and disservice to society than cross burning. Giving someone an advantage based solely on the color of their skin (or hair, or eyes) is WRONG no matter which way it swings. And yet grants, jobs, etc are given out to less qualified individuals just because they happen to be a woman, black, hispanic, etc. Being a white middle class male has become the most oppressed minority in america.

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Well, all cultures are precious and should (not must) be preserved - and it's not about the fact we say so, which is just another sleight against the left - as i've said several times, the left cherishes freedom as much as the right

I think that people should be free to live any way they choose. If they bind themselves to a particular culture then they can do so. The problem here is forcing that culture onto other people, which, IMO, violates the fundamental rule of freedom... impingeing on someone else's freedom. If I don't like the way someone else chooses to live, I am just as free to feel that way as they are free to act that way. AND I am also free to spread that oppinion at my leisure... but if I am directing my opinion at someone who dosnt want to hear it, I should redirect it... that dosn't mean I have to shut my mouth... just that I not direct it expressly at them.

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Ha ha!

So you have a problem with everyone having a voice?

That has absolutely nothing to do with the point. The point (and you knew the point) was that the liberal's idea of diversity is exclusively liberal.

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Well, the big businesses who fund those studies see them as an investment - and that means they'll make their money back and then some

just like when they support a political party or candidate

Yup.

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Well, if you don't like the progression to more liberal values, which stop would you get off on the reverse-progess train then?

the days before the Clean Air / Clean Water act?


Nearly doubled the cost of gas/fossil fuels.

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the days before Medicare?

When medical care was exponentially more affordable? Now we're at the mercy of greedy HMOs and PPOs who don't like to pay the now super-inflated prices set by other greedy companies who know the other big companies can afford it.

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the days before the Voting Rights act?

That's going back a long way to where the political climate was entirely different than it is today. No modern political party can claim responsibility.

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the days before the Civil Rights act?

See above.

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the days before the Fair Labor Standards act?

See above.

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the days before Social Security?

Are you serious? Social Security is a disaster. First of all, SS is not a living wage, and hardly matters as a suplemental wage. Secondly, there's more people currently drawing off of SS than are paying into it... and more people every day. With the SS depleted by 2030, youn folks like myself are paying a reasonble chunk of their paycheck for a benefit that THEY WILL NEVER SEE.

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the days of "seperate but equal"?

This holds true today. Hence, seperate restrooms for guys and gals. The fact is, that 'seperate but equal' isn't always a bad thing.

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the days of legal child labor?

There's nothing wrong with a kid working to help supplement his families income. If that law extended to the household, chores would be illegal. I can imagine parents being put in jail for making their 12-year-old wash dishes or mow the lawn. Sweat shops and coal mines are one thing, but we've replaced work with school, which dosn't always (in the case of the public school system: hardly ever) help them on the road through life. You may object based off your pre-programmed principals, but if you think about a bit, you'll see that what I say makes sense.

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Uh, you do know that liberals believe in freedom of speech, right?

So long as it's not religious speech or anything else that dosn't agree with their liberal views.

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that everyone who believes in civil liberties is a big-government liberal (or if we know better, we still don't want the general public to know about libertarians),

Liberals aren't so much for civil liberties as much as forcing their views of civil liberties on others, then declaring them 'haters' when they protest or disagree.

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Yeah? well everyone who supports the Patriot act is a cheap-labor conservative!

Huh? The Patriot act gave local and foreign policing agencies more power to locate and dissasemble terrorists at home and abroad. What does that have to do with cheap labor?

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Who said that?

that's the first i've heard of it

*shrugs*

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Hey! that was Robert Mugabe - dictator-pretending-to-be-a-socialist of Zimbabwe (and someone who appears to have a Hitler-moustache from certain angles)

Mugabe isn't interested in helping out the poor Zimbabweans, even though he says he does - he is interested in holding onto power using whatever methods needed, and giving his cronies the land that should be going to the poor

he is no leftist

Oh contraire... that is the very definition of a leftist: Hold onto power by whatever means necessary while pretending to care about the poor and the oppressed, but only if doing so protects ones own interests.

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I think the communist government in China realises that starting World War 3 isn't in their best interest, however, i don't think some hick would realise that shooting his wife/best friend over the last beer wouldn't be in their best interest either

China isn't THAT stupid. N Vietname, maybe... but CHina, no. That last bit sounded like another derogratory and slanderous shot at conservatives... except that it dosn't really make sense.

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Where the hell did that statistic come from?

Did the guy just pull that one outta his ass?

There is NO way anyone can gather a statistic like that

Agreed. But if everyone carried guns, those two Columbine kids would have been down in less than 10 seconds. Theres lots of stupid people out there, but even more smart ones... and ten good guys with guns will win over the one bad guy any day. On the other hand, the bad guys will carry guns anyway, and if the good guys are unarmed... it's an extreme viewpoint, but gun excessive regulation (to a liberal, regulation means 'BAN') is NOT the answer. Buying a gun should be more like buying a car... you should have to meet certain qualifications, background checks, be licensed, etc.

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I guess that means that restrictions on firearms are working then!

Restrictions on firearms have NOTHING to do with child firearm accidents. Hightened awareness has led to parents being much more careful. Preventing parents (or any reasonably intelligent adult) from buying a firearm is unconstitutional, unsafe, and stupid.

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Well, natural resources ARE finite! anyone with a brain can figure out that one

In one sense, yes. But matter is neither created or destroyed, only rearranged. So there will always be some type of raw materials to work with. In another 50-100 years we will have finished developing a universal constructor and 'finite' will no longer apply to any resource.

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*laughs his ass off*

Liberals and Communists aren't the same thing!

now write that 200 times!

Yes, yes they are. If you havn't realized it already, you might want to start seriously looking at your political party. High taxes ( even higher penalties for prosperous people) in addition to big spending = reallocation of wealth = socialism. On top of the whole behavioral control issue... ie, 'you can hang this on a courtroom wall, but not this'

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Businessmen have only one prority - the bottom line

Also, you can't vote out businessmen

Government and buisness are very nearly the same thing... and you *can* vote out a buisnessman... you stop doing buisness with him, and his buisness goes under.

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Damn, even my dead pet rabbit wouldn't swallow that

You've already exhibited the trait - 'corporate-backed right had not blocked attempts.' You associate corporate buisness with conservatism... because they have power, sometimes even in politics... and you feel that the government should have unequivocal, unquestionable power. The leftist mindset again... power.

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do a search on the right's position on Dred Scott v. Sandford and you'll see how much respect they have for the consitution

if you can't be bothered - read about the 1984, uh, Patriot act (sorry - couldn't resist!)

The Dred Scott case happened in the mid 1800's! In that political climate there were two stances on slavery: for, and against. In fact, President Lincoln was a very conservative man and took the stand against slavery that kick started the Civil War. Therfore, if Lincoln was conservative, and opposed slavery, then it must those of liberal mind that supported it. But no, the truth is that modern left and right can not be correllated directly or indirectly to any of those events, and so the point is absolutely moot.

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So does that mean the right is pro-dictatorship then?

It means exactly the opposite, this is you purposely misquoting and disagreeing with the misquote. It implies that the left plays the public like puppets... and is, therefore, a dictatorial entity.

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Not everybody on the left is a Socialist - that's like calling everyone on the right a Nazi!

We've been over this... but the Nazis were semi-socialist.

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You guys don't really want smaller government - you just want the social safety net for the poor removed so they're desperate enough to work for peanuts

The majority of conservatives are middle classed. Nearly everyone in the lower class is capable of an oppressed middle class income... but while the liberals are handing out free rides... why on earth would anyone want to? Nothing holds anyone in poverty but lack of ambition.

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huh??

Ditto.

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There's that goddam Democrats=Communists comparison again - does anyone really believe that? (i know lots of people WANT to believe it, but that doesn't mean they really do)

Because it's absolutely true! Those who believe in social, economic, and, ultimately, individual freedom without opressive presence of Big Brother are called libertarians. It's a group that both the left and right would rather you forget about, and do their best to make it invisible. Look into it, it may open your eyes to years of brainwashing the leftist have done to you.

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Let me just point out five things:

1 - He presided over the biggest economic expansion in US history

2 - He helped broker peace in Northern Ireland and the Middle East (although the latter unfortunately fell apart

3 - He successfully reversed the Reagan/Bush Sr budget deficits and created budget surpluses so big there was talk of paying off the entire national debt in a decade

4 - He is the only president not to send a soldier into battle that never came back - Bush Sr sent the soldiers into Somalia

5 - Clinton's private life was not the business of the entire world - cheating on your wife isn't against the law


1. Economic expansion was already happening when Bush Sr left office. Bama Bill had nothing to do with it.

2. I have a feeling there won't be peace in the Middle East till some serious blood is shed. There's millenia of religious conflicts and inbred hatred over there and it's not going away. Clinton had nothing to do with the peace process in Northern Ireland. In fact, I'm almost offended by suggestion as half my family is Irish. That was an internal matter on religious discrimination and was solved internally.

3. Reagen/Bush deficits? Reagan was one of the most economically successful presidents the US has ever had. Then there's Bama Bill stealing Bush's financial limelight as well.

4. After desert storm thousands of soldiers returned with medical conditions instigated by Iraq's chemical weapons factories. My best friends big brother was in desert storm, and his tear ducts were permanently damaged by fumes from a burning chemical weapons facility. He now has to use an eyedropper every 5 minutes for the rest of his life. Of course you'll never here about that since Clinton's cause was just and the liberal media didn't want to give him any bad publicity.

5. Clinton held a PUBLIC OFFICE. When you enter into a PUBLIC office, the people OWN you. You're life is EVERYONE's buisness. Should he have been impeached for lying about it? No. But it was still stupid and shouldn't have lied to the american people about it. Papers in the UK had a field day for months... even moreso than ours.

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it's good actions based upon good intentions that are needed!

A kid wakes up one morning and decides to make his mommy and daddy breakfast in bed. He gets out some eggs and bread, turns on the stove, tries to scramble some eggs on a paper plate... and burns down the house with his mother and father inside. Good intentions... but he really didn't know what the heck he was doing. Same story here.

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I have a wonderful idea! The economy has gone to shit and cities are laying off firemen, policemen and paramedics, we are spending 70 million a month in Afghanistan and Iraq, 44 states are operating at budget deficit and the president' approval rating is in the crapper, lets PICK ON THE LIBERALS! Cant pick on the French since we now need them to help in Iraq, so liberals are easy targets.

They care for causes that are easily marginalized , most of them aren't " Real Americans" anyway. We should do this because as all Conservatives know it is more important to appear right than to be right.

At a time when our country needs us most, the "Big Brained" conservatives are preparing for thier most important battle! No not in Iraq, or North Korea. We are preparing for ... REELECTION! Cause I must agree, conservatives know how to stea.. ah., win an election. It helps that they can usually outspend thier liberal opponents 2-1 but with all that rich folks money its no wonder.

I wish I could sit here and make sweeping generalizations regarding conservatives, I really do. But in good conscience I cannot. You see I don't KNOW most conservatives and if I attempted to

base it on generalization it would be unfair. I could say that most conservatives don't give a rats ass about the environment, or that most of them are racist and or that they are war mongers, ot that they profit from the sweat of the working man while holding such people in the lowest esteem, but that would simply not be the case.

We are facing a critical time and making light of someone elses political beliefs is small minded and mean spirited. Worse it is a waste of intellectual capital. It is an example of partisan politics at its worst.

Based on whats going on in Iraq, I could have had a field day taking potshots at the Administration. I declined because as much as disdain as I have for Bush, those are MY countrymen dying over there and I pray that we can find a solution. If I were to counter the premise of the original post I might say , How to be a good conservative..make fun of those who dont think as you do.

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quote:


Originally posted by Race Bannon IV:

I have a wonderful idea! The economy has gone to shit and cities are laying off firemen, policemen and paramedics, we are spending 70 million a month in Afghanistan and Iraq, 44 states are operating at budget deficit and the president' approval rating is in the crapper, lets PICK ON THE LIBERALS! Cant pick on the French since we now need them to help in Iraq, so liberals are easy targets.

They care for causes that are easily marginalized , most of them aren't " Real Americans" anyway. We should do this because as all Conservatives know it is more important to appear right than to be right.

At a time when our country needs us most, the "Big Brained" conservatives are preparing for thier most important battle! No not in Iraq, or North Korea. We are preparing for ... REELECTION! Cause I must agree, conservatives know how to stea.. ah., win an election. It helps that they can usually outspend thier liberal opponents 2-1 but with all that rich folks money its no wonder.

I wish I could sit here and make sweeping generalizations regarding conservatives, I really do. But in good conscience I cannot. You see I don't KNOW most conservatives and if I attempted to

base it on generalization it would be unfair. I could say that most conservatives don't give a rats ass about the environment, or that most of them are racist and or that they are war mongers, ot that they profit from the sweat of the working man while holding such people in the lowest esteem, but that would simply not be the case.

We are facing a critical time and making light of someone elses political beliefs is small minded and mean spirited. Worse it is a waste of intellectual capital. It is an example of partisan politics at its worst.

Based on whats going on in Iraq, I could have had a field day taking potshots at the Administration. I declined because as much as disdain as I have for Bush, those are MY countrymen dying over there and I pray that we can find a solution. If I were to counter the premise of the original post I might say , How to be a good conservative..make fun of those who dont think as you do.


It seems then that liberals know how to whine...

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Good come back you really got me there. that is indicative of some sharp critical thinking.

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both sides have the 1rst objective of staying in power! sheesh! how long will it take to realise that. Stop accusing the other one to "do eveything they can to stay in power" because

1 ) it's true

2 ) it's true for you too.

both sides try to cover up mistakes. both sides take any weenie detail and magnify it to reinforce their case. both sides care more about their image than the people that elected them.

Clinton got a BJ, so what, Bush Jr went AWOL once, many of his family members have criminal records...

I think you shouLd complain more about Monica who gave the BJ and made an hollywood celebrity of herself than about the one who was on the receiving end.

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quote:

both sides have the 1rst objective of staying in power! sheesh! how long will it take to realise that. Stop accusing the other one to "do eveything they can to stay in power"

First off, when one side has power it wants to keep it. The other side wants to regain it. Different motives. Different objectives. Different tactics. I minor point, I admit, but one worth making.

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I think you shouLd complain more about Monica...

The fact is that they ended up complaining about Linda Tripp for exposing it. Do you remember Time Magazine's "Women of the Year" last year? It was the Whistleblowers. TIME lauded the women who exposed the Enron scandal and FBI screw-ups (that occured on Clinton's watch but were exposed on Bush's) as heros. I wonder why they didn't celebrate Linda Tripp as a hero when she exposed what what was going on in the White House.

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quote:

First off, when one side has power it wants to keep it. The other side wants to regain it. Different motives. Different objectives. Different tactics. I minor point, I admit, but one worth making.

Point taken, but you know what i meant.

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Steve,

You are NOT going to believe this.

I was so PISSED off when I saw this yesterday.

I took the family to the Museum of History and Industry here in Seattle yesterday.

They had a copy of the Declaration of independence on display, as well as a presentation that they called "The Presidents".

In this display they had some of the presidents and what they were famous for.

Roosevelt for the new deal, (socialist utopia by any other name) and his threats to the Supreme Court. Kennedy for the Cuban Missile Crisis, and then Reagan, for, get this now, for having 2 of his supreme court nominees rejected. Can you believe that crap? Bork and the other one who withdrew after the senate jumped Bork like they did.

I couldn't believe it, the man defeats the Soviet Union without firing a shot, gets the Berlin Wall torn down, frees more people then have ever been freed in the ENTIRE history of the world, he cleaned up Carters mess, Grenada, Iranian Hostage Crisis, beats inflation, what didn't he do? and these bastages says that he's famous for having 2 of his USSC nominees rejected?

I was SOOO pissed, I wanted to tear the sign to pieces with my bare hands.

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After reading ALL of this...i have come to the conclusion that i must be a Conservative, because I agreed with EVERYTHING Scrivenger said.

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If you are not liberal when you are between 18 and 35 you have no heart, but if you are not conservative after that, then you have no brains.

I'm not a liberal and i'm 22, and i'll laugh at anyone who said i had no heart, then prove them wrong. So i guess thats another generalization thats far from the truth. I'm out of this post...the tone in here is a little to serious for me on a GAME forum.

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That's Seattle for you, home of the first WTO riot.

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Kennedy for the Cuban Missile Crisis...

I always thought this was overstated glory. Consider Eisenhower vs. Kennedy. Ike defeated Hitler, yet he was a quiet man. Kennedy was a gratification seeker just like Clinton. I believe that Khrushchev knew he couldn't mess with Eisenhower, so he waited until Kennedy took over. Kennedy reveled in the adrenaline rush.

It makes we wonder why life under Ike was so quiet, yet life under Kennedy was so raucous. Do you suppose Eisenhower was quietly competent while others were loudly flamboyant?

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Bork and the other one who withdrew...

Douglas Ginsberg, for admitting that he smoked marijuana.

Did they mention Iran/Contra? Did they speculate that he secretly negotiated with Iran to keep the hostages until he was elected?

Maybe the misty weather is making Seattle cranky. Either that, or it's all the coffee and grunge.

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quote:

...Life was quiet under Eisenhower..

Yes perhaps it was quiet in some places or perhaps many voices were hushed and bowed under the repression that reighned in that time. However I will agree with Ike's competence and greatness he has always been a personal hero.

The "calm" that most people felt was the absence of voice blacks , women and other minorities. Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of conservatives would like t turn back the clock to those halcyon days when women were subservient and bath rooms were separate but equal. I hope you'll pardon me if I dont look fondly back on those days.

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quote:

Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of conservatives would like t turn back the clock to those halcyon days when women were subservient and bath rooms were separate but equal.

Considering that the Republicans were the ones that voted for and made sure that ALL equal rights laws were passed in the 60's, I am amazed and shocked that you would say such a thing.

The Democrats are the ones that did their best to make sure that those laws did not pass.

Senator Gore, This Generations Gores, father, actually fillibustered the Senate to try and stall any passage of any kind of antidiscrimination laws.

Conservatives were the ones that worked HARD to try and get those laws passed. The Democrats were the ones that worked hard to try and make sure they didn't.

So to say that conservatives yearn for the good old days is rather angering to me, because as a conservative, and knowing MANY conservatives, I have yet to meet one who has a racist bone in their body, and then to be blamed for racism when in fact WE were the ones who created and passed those laws, is rather upsetting to say the least.

Read the history please, you will find that conservatives, at almost ALL points in history, have backed equal rights, and antdiscrimination, whereas the Democrats and liberals have almost always been against them.

Shoot, the starkest example of the difference in conservatives and Liberals, is the Clinton administration and Bush's administration.

Show me on Black or minority in the Clinton Administration that actually held a HIGH cabinet position. JUST one.

In the Bush administration, 2 of the MOST powerful cabinet positions are held by Blacks, and Bush has nominated a number of minorities for the federal Bench, one of which is being filibusteref in the Sentate because he is not minority enough, Estrada is his name, and the Dems are having a cow that he was even Nominated.

So for you to say that conservatives are somehow the racist ones, is rewriting history, to say the least!!

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not denying what you said in your last post jag (my story of the united states is limited to the colonies (back when the Nouvelle France extended down to Louisiana) and the commercial relationships with Canada), but it sounds like conservatists and democrats (~liberals) swapped roles ... aren't conservatists people trying to keep things as is, by definition?

Just strange.

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