Hurricane Katrina - No One Can Say they Didn't See it Coming

[LostInSpace]

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Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

You see a White person under the same premise, they say the person is fleeing.

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Jeez, the media here in NY must be totally slanted because I've yet to see one of them doing that on the news. The only time I've seen white people in the media in the midst of this disaster are usually hanging around on the roof tops of downtown New Orleans waiting everything out.

This was on the daily news front page yesterday

Daily News photographer captures the horror outside Superdome as beaten man is carried away.

BTW: Fats Domino stayed behind and was rescued the other day as well. According to his manager he spoke with him on the phone and his manager pleaded with him to get the hell out but Fats told him he would be okay and ride the storm out. I think this pretty much tipifies the attitudes of the people that stayed behind. Was it ignorance? I don't know. But again, I say the people were warned and were told specifically that there will be no help to anyone that stays behind. End of Story. This crying over lack of rescue is getting tiresome to me as well and the attack on Bush's lack of response and this brining the issue of race into the fray. A lot of People are stupid, I don't care what ethnic background they are.

[LostInSpace]

Just to prove my point about people's stupidity in general:

Woman torches house trying to kill spiders

Is that stupid or what?

[Darkling]

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Originally posted by LostInSpace:

... Fats told him he would be okay and ride the storm out. I think this pretty much tipifies the attitudes of the people that stayed behind. Was it ignorance? I don't know. But again, I say the people were warned and were told specifically that there will be no help to anyone that stays behind. End of Story. This crying over lack of rescue is getting tiresome ...

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While someone like Fats was pretty stupid for staying behind, you have to understand that most of the people that stayed behind did so because of financial reasons. If you're living paycheck to paycheck and all of a sudden someone said, "Hey everyone needs to evaucuate". You look at the situation and think, "OK. We've evacuated before and nothing happened. I don't have a car, I don't have money for a hotel for the night, I don't have any friends or relatives that I could go to. What Options do I really have?".

While it's very easy for people like us with the means to evacuate, now say hey you should have left like me, many times it's easier said than done.

[Grizzle]

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Posted by Prez

EVERY SINGLE THING Bush does or does not do he is absolutely creamed for. The man can do NOTHING right, apparently. I think some people here would have a higher opinion of the anti-Christ. [Roll Eyes]

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Politics as usual Prez. Have you forgotten Clinton too? Might as well add Bush Sr., Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon etc...

[LostInSpace]

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Originally posted by Darkling:

While someone like Fats was pretty stupid for staying behind, you have to understand that most of the people that stayed behind did so because of financial reasons. If you're living paycheck to paycheck and all of a sudden someone said, "Hey everyone needs to evaucuate". You look at the situation and think, "OK. We've evacuated before and nothing happened. I don't have a car, I don't have money for a hotel for the night, I don't have any friends or relatives that I could go to. What Options do I really have?".

While it's very easy for people like us with the means to evacuate, now say hey you should have left like me, many times it's easier said than done.

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I disagree. I'm going to give you a hypothetical: Suppose it was announced on the news for everyone to evacute due to a 99% reliable probability that terrorists are going to set off a dirty bomb in New Orleans. Do you think that these same "poor" people are going to sit on their duff and stay? No, I think not. People need to treat hurricanes as a couple of nukes headed their way. I don't care how powerful it is. One just doesn't not know the outcome. Better off not to take chances and just go. The people who stayed behind have been through this before. They've lived there for generation and know the dangers that are involved especially living near the mississipi river. But then again, that's just me.

[John Prezioso]

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Politics as usual Prez. Have you forgotten Clinton too? Might as well add Bush Sr., Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon etc...

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No, I haven't forgotten. But the term "politics as usual" belies the fact that historically, in times of great national crisis, politics usually plays second fiddle to solidarity, if only for a little while. 9/11, for example.

Now we don't even wait for the bodies to be counted before slinging mud. Pretty soon, we'll start blaming the president for things that haven't happened yet, but might. What the hay - I'll start.

"Grrr! I'm so mad Bush did not do enough to stop the nuking of Baltimore!! And the dirty bombing of Giant's Stadium. And the stock market crash in November 2006. Damn him, that Bush!"

But in all seriousness, there's not enough money in the world to make me want to be President. It is the most thankless job I can think of. To be perfectly honest, I think we right-wingers are at least partially to blame for the state of bi-partisan, political rhetoric today, but regardless, it needs to stop... or at least be put on hold.

[Darkling]

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Originally posted by LostInSpace:

I disagree. I'm going to give you a hypothetical: Suppose it was announced on the news for everyone to evacute due to a 99% reliable probability that terrorists are going to set off a dirty bomb in New Orleans. Do you think that these same "poor" people are going to sit on their duff and stay? No, I think not. People need to treat hurricanes as a couple of nukes headed their way. I don't care how powerful it is. One just doesn't not know the outcome. Better off not to take chances and just go. The people who stayed behind have been through this before. They've lived there for generation and know the dangers that are involved especially living near the mississipi river. But then again, that's just me.

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You've got to be kidding me with that kind of comparison. 1st of all, New Orleans has been evacuated SEVERAL times before and nothing happened. So in people's mind this was a "Probabability" not a "Certianty" and second of all, what is New Orleans plans for getting people out? Here in South Florida, if you don't have transportation to get out, then transportation is provided to you as part of our Emergency Preparedness Program, what does New Orleans do/

If I have no money to buy a bus ticket out of town, what do I do? Walk out of town, remember the order was only given 15Hrs. before the storm hit. How far are you going to get on foot? Plus WHERE do you go if again, you have no resources?

Truth is, if there was a dirty bomb about to be detonated, there WOULD be buses lined up to take people away, but because this was not a 99% thing, they left it up to the people to do what they had to (or could afford to) do.

Hell I still remember when I was a kid and sometimes my Mom didn't have enough to buy a decent meal for us. I know that back then, if someone had said that we needed to evacutate the city we were living in, my mom would have probably said How? Whith what money?

[LostInSpace]

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Originally posted by Darkling:

You've got to be kidding me with that kind of comparison. 1st of all, New Orleans has been evacuated SEVERAL times before and nothing happened.

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That's just rediculous. It became a gd category 5 hurricane when it hit the gulf and headed towards the gulf coast but dropped to a category 4 a day before it hit. A category 4!!! Hello!! This wasn't your average hurricane this was a monster! We are not talking about evacuating to another state now, all they had to do was get out of that below sea level bowl that is New Orleans. It would not take 15 hrs to walk to get out of there. as for no money or food, that's just a lame excuse. Believe me, if I had a choice between possibly dying or going hungry, dirty and tired for a few days, I would drop everything and get the hell out of that sink hole.

BTW: I'm neither rich or middle class but I am, just a tad, above the poverty line. So, I'm not some rich dude who has means. If a disaster was about to strike me, I'd be screwed in terms of material possesions. But I know what's more important.

[Wolferz]

So now we are pointing the finger of blame at the citizens for not packing up and getting the hell outta Dodge? Sounds like my dad. If you were poor black and destitute, with a house full of kids and a disabled relative or two.. How far do you think you could get on foot??? without a car or money or anything else to assure your survival on the road. How many of those families do you think, would have been arrested for vagrancy, child neglect and who knows what else??? Do you really think those people could survive out on the road for months or even years??? Which is what has been postulated as the time it's going to take for the place to recover. Days my arse!

How much more hard hearted can some of you people be???

Nevermind. I already know and you should be ashamed of yourselves!!!!

If this had happened in Connecticut or Massachusetts, the recovery ops would have been staged and ready to go days before the storm came ashore, regardless of the percentage of probability.

One thing is as clear as glass... Cranial Rectal Syndrome has become an epidemic in this country.

The revolution has been predicted to start next year. I might find some enjoyment in putting a bunch of you self centered sick puppies down for good. My Kevlar helmet will be labeled- "Miguel's Gene pool cleaning services"

[Guest]

I think that this whole situation is INSANE.

New Orleans SHOULD have had a plan in place to evacuate the poor and handicapped etc.

There were how many fricking school busses sitting in that lot?

THe mayor and governor screwed the pooch on this one, they should have been prepared, and WEREN'T.

FEMA takes 5-7 days to get food and water supplies into an area, in that time it the state and local authorities responsiblity to keep those refugees fed, and keep law and order.

The state and city are at fault, and now WE, the FEDERAL taxpayer are going to foot the bill for getting this chaos and crap under control.

[Grizzle]

Agreed Prez. But it is also human nature. We elect leaders so we can praise them when they make our lives better and scold them when they don't.

We pay taxes so our government can protect us and provide a livable infrastructure, so it only makes sense they get beat upon when they don't do their job.

[Darkling]

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Originally posted by Jaguar:

I think that this whole situation is INSANE.

New Orleans SHOULD have had a plan in place to evacuate the poor and handicapped etc.

There were how many fricking school busses sitting in that lot?

THe mayor and governor screwed the pooch on this one, they should have been prepared, and WEREN'T.

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EXACTLY my point, WTF do these people pay taxes to the city and local governments for? It's the local governments job to take care of these people when they need help, and to just say to them, Hey a Cat 5 Hurricane with no help is just ABSOLUTELY INSANE.

And Lostinspace, I'm sorry but you MUST REALLY be Lost In Space to think that some of these poor destitute people with no car, carrying their young children, elderly or infirmed family members should have somehow walked out of there in the middle of a rainstorm, and you may live just above the poverty line, but I've lived both WAY BELOW the poverty line and now I live fairly comfortably in a 3000+ Sq. Ft. House with pretty much everything I need so I've seen both sides of the spectrum and I can tell you that you are WAY OFF BASE HERE. You know what, I think everyone here knows that I'm a Republican, very conservative and very much an advocate of self reliance and enterprenureship. BUT at the same time, I know that when someone needs help, TRULY needs help WE should not turn our backs on them and say, hey I can do it, so YOU can too. You sir, should be ashamed of yourself.

[John Prezioso]

The human instinct for survival (not to mention a man's instinct to do whatever it takes to protect his family) is not dependent upon income level. When your family's life is at stake, you find a way.

I think a lot of people who were angry about not being rescued after the storm had beforehand figured they could just sit around and the government would swoop in and rescue them minutes after the hurricane past. In my view, one's own survival is the ultimate responsibility of the individual.

This is not to say we don't help them; of course we do. But relying on the government for help instead of doing what you can for yourself is a dubious prospect, not to mention a denial of one's own dignity as a human being. Those that couldn't flee would have been gotten out ALOT faster if those who just WOULDN'T leave would have.

I can't believe that EVERYONE who stayed behind were the ones who had absolutely no means of fleeing. Some of them sure; but how many stayed behind out of a stubborn insistence to brave the storm, bred from their own erroneously perceived invincibitlity? How many of those who stayed behind expect that the government is obligated to ensure that nothing bad ever happens to them, and if it does, they are obligated to make things right immediately? How many stayed behind BECAUSE they knew the looting would be good?

All I know is, when my kids' lives are potentially in danger, I'm hitting the road. Period.

[Guest]

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Originally posted by Prez:

All I know is, when my kids' lives are potentially in danger, I'm hitting the road. Period.

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AMEN BROTHER!!!

[Guest Grayfox]

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So now we are pointing the finger of blame at the citizens for not packing up and getting the hell outta Dodge?

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no... i already said before that the city/state govt should of had a contingincy plan to deal with this, and they did not. who knows better what the poverty demographics are? the city/state govt. to me it is THEIR responsibility to get everyone moved out of the city... rich, poor, black, white etc. all the mayor did was declare a state of emergency, order a MANDATORY evacuation, then he sat on his ass and waited for this thing to hit. when it did hit, all seemed manageable... until the levee's went... which is what was predicted to happen.

the governor was no better IMHO. if they would of had a plan... ANY plan in place that dealt with the mass evacuation of the city, i think most of this crap we've been watching on the news the past week could have been avoided. there is no excuse to NOT have a plan in place to evacuate the poor, elderly, children, and those who have no transportation... NO excuse...

now as for looters... unfortunately ive seen mostly black people "looting" but that as someone said earlier is a demographic issue... now taking diapers, food, water, clothes, things essential to survival, to me, is NOT looting, its self preservation. now on the other hand you got people taking stereos and tv's, these are the idiots... tell me genius, what the **** are you going to do with a god**** tv if the entire ****ing city is without power?!?!?!?! last i heard you cant eat electronics... then you have those animals... actually lower than animals, because i dont think animals would know any better, who are shooting at the police guarding stores, who are shooting at the rescue choppers and rescue teams, who are running around in packs like wild dogs raping women, and shooting people. that,IMO, is when the governor said "these troops know how to shoot to kill" she was talking to them. then this idiot rapper kanye west says pres bush hates black people, and theyre sending in the NG "to shoot us". how friggin ignorant can you be?

now, after all of this, i do not think the fed gov is totally blameless. the slow response was ridiculous. once they seen the ineptitude at the city/state level, they should of jumped in with both boots... polotics be damned. they said the communication breakdown caused some of the delay... if CNN could get these stories out the day after, the feds should of been able to mobilize something... trucks should of been packed with food and water... mainly water. the NG should of been sent in first with the rescue teams with food and water, and as a backup to the police. also the hospitals should of been evacuated first... by chopper if necessary. next should of came the engineers, who should of already had a levee breach plan in place, to fix the levees and start pumping out the water. finally the evac of the superdome and convention center. if you have to, evac by boat 24/7. or if you cant do boat all the way, do bus the rest of the way. anything would of been better than sitting for 5 days... and the governor should of gotten off her ass as well.

well as they say in service... the 6 P's Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

it just pisses me off to no end to see something that with prior planning could of avoided the tremendous loss of life... the saddest thing to me is, watching this on the news, im watching these poor kids suffer... newborns, toddlers, grade schoolers... if only...

[Supreme Cmdr]

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Originally posted by Grizzle:

quote:

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Posted by Prez

EVERY SINGLE THING Bush does or does not do he is absolutely creamed for. The man can do NOTHING right, apparently. I think some people here would have a higher opinion of the anti-Christ. [Roll Eyes]

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Politics as usual Prez. Have you forgotten Clinton too? Might as well add Bush Sr., Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon etc...

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ALL the past administrations KNEW about this problem with the levees and didn't do anything about it. Bush DID do something about it. He cut their funding.

[Darkling]

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Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

ALL the past administrations KNEW about this problem with the levees and didn't do anything about it. Bush DID do something about it. He cut their funding.

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Funding that he had authorized to begin with, the other Presidents wouldn't even authorize the initial funding to get it done, but in all fairness, it's not like Congress made a huge effort to get the Levies into any budget until just recently.

Keep in mind that the average budget has tens of thousands of line items, all of which are handled by congress. Presidents can propose a general budget, but the details are handled by congress. They hash out all the details and the president can approve or disapprove. I seriously doubt that Bush personally went in there and said, "Umm these levees here, we don't need them cut that from the funding." Again, these are details that are put together by Congress and Bush either says Yes or No. Nothing else.

[Darkling]

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Originally posted by Grayfox:

...All the mayor did was declare a state of emergency, order a

MANDATORY

evacuation, then he sat on his ass and waited for this thing to hit. when it did hit, all seemed manageable... until the levee's went... which is what was predicted to happen.

the governor was no better IMHO. if they would of had a plan... ANY plan in place that dealt with the mass evacuation of the city, ...

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Very true, What's funny is one of the things that I saw on the News a rows and rows and rows of School Buses underwater, Hey Mr. Governor, here's and Idea, let's see, you have one of the highest poverty rates in the entire US, and you have rows and rows and rows of School Busses at your disposal, how about you use all those school Buses to get people out of there? Hmm, maybe with just a little PLANNING, it just might have worked!?

[Guest]

The locals screwed the pooch Nomad, BIG TIME!!!

If the local and state authorities had done their job, FEMA coud have done theirs.

FEMA is there to coordinate, it is AWFULLY hard to coordinate with something that doesn't exist.

The local and state governments screwed up, BY THE NUMBERS, and therefore FEMA was unable to coordinate with anything, because the local and state systems that SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE, weren't...

[John Prezioso]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the US Tsunami aid did not start flowing in until long after 3 days, as was the case in Louisiana.

Also, the Tsunami water receded in the affected regions after a matter of hours. Louisiana has been mostly under water for SIX days. A very big difference in my view.

[LostInSpace]

Actually, the U.S. pleged the $35 million the day it happened. But people weren't satisfied and called the U.S. Cheap. Three days later Bush announced an increase to $350 million.

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December 26th, 2004 7 a.m. Tsunami strikes

December 26th, 2004 Bush Pledges $35 million.

December 29th, 2004 Bush Pledges $350 million.

Total USG Humanitarian and Recovery Assistance Pledged 12/31/04: $350,000,000

Tsunami Recovery and Reconstruction Fund: $631,000,000*

Total USAID Humanitarian Assistance Committed: $101,550,957

Total USAID Rehabilitation/Reconstruction Assistance Committed: $427,695,969

Other USG Humanitarian Assistance Provided: $237,900,000

*$656 million was approved for the Tsunami Recovery and Reconstruction Fund, but $25 million is committed to Avian Flu.

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This leads me to my second issue. I've seen blog after blog of people screaming if Bush didn't commit our troops in iraq we would have the resources for a better response. IMO, it's more a monetary issue and not one of physical resources. If the U.S. had put all that money aside, that they sent in foreign aid for the Tsunami disaster, for any impending disasters in this country, we wouldn't be in the predicament we are now. But a lot of people don't see it that way. They are anally fixated on Bush and Iraq it's blinding them to the real culprit in this crisis.

This leads me to my next third issue. Should the federal government be there to bail out every Tom, Dick or Jane (TDJ) when TDJ insists on settling or developing settlements in very precarious, very dodgy and very questionable geological locations?

Especially when one calculates into the equation the fact that it was the development and the attempt to tame nature that exacerbated the situation. I.E. The coastal wetlands of the region that act like a sponge to soak up excess water has been desintegrating for the past fifty years and even the wetlands that are there are more waterlogged bogs then they are the nice soft semi-damp clay due to the taming of the mississippi.

The same thing applies to what happened to Sri Lanka.

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Illegal coral mining off the southwest coast of Sri Lanka allowed far more onshore destruction from the December 26, 2004, tsunami than occurred in nearby areas whose coral reefs were intact, according to an August 15 press release form the American Geophysical Union.

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[Kevin Trotter]

Sometimes you guys really amaze me. To be doing anything but discussing how to help is criminal I guess it easier to use this as yet another way to prop up our idiot president and his ilk. No city could manage a catastrophe of this magnitude. No evacuation of a city of 500,000 could be complete. I would imagine getting 75% evacuated would be considered a win. As to the CAT 5 levee I heard estimates in the billions to complete the work. DOES YOUR CITY HAVE THAT KIND OF MONEY? It is the function of the Federal govenment to assist when city's and states cannot.

It is also pretty hard to ignore the fact that most of the people in NO now are black and that has left the door open for a lot of "code talk"

Many people wonder why the initial response seemed so indifferent, I mean I was expecting more from this compassionate conservative and just got more of the same.

But I have faith in my countrymen. I have seen people act IMMEDIATELY to send aid, from my church to my place of employment, to my neighborhood, Americans banding together is what makes me proud to be an American, regardless of the shameless and heartless acts of a few.

[John Prezioso]

I'm confused Race. You lament the discussion of anything beyond helping and in THE SAME SENTENCE take an obvious cheap shot at Bush. Mind-boggling.

Can anyone have a reasonable discussion anymore without senseless personal attacks?

[LostInSpace]

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Originally posted by Prez:

I'm confused Race. You lament the discussion of anything beyond helping and in THE SAME SENTENCE take an obvious cheap shot at Bush. Mind-boggling.

Can anyone have a reasonable discussion anymore without senseless personal attacks?

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Don't forget Prez that this is a prime opportunity for the liberals and democrats to beat the war drums and to make the conservatives look as bad as they can get away with for the next upcomming presidential elections and other elections as well. A shame really and they call us vultures.

[LostInSpace]

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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE August 28, 2005

Sen. Landrieu Statement on Hurrican Katrina

WASHINGTON -- United States Senator Mary L. Landrieu, D-La., issued the following statement from the Hurricane Command Center in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

"I would like to commend both Governor Blanco and all of the local leaders who have done a tremendous job helping the people of Louisiana prepare for Hurricane Katrina. Unfortunately, the reverberations of this storm will be felt not only in Louisiana but across the nation.

"Our port system provides the nation with the transportation needs for our country's economy and commerce while our coastline provides the energy for our homes and industries. And Louisiana's unique wetlands provide our state with a buffer zone from natural disasters such as hurricanes. But our wetlands have been eroding. As I have said before, in order for us to protect America's energy supply and transportation needs, the federal government must join with the people of Louisiana to preserve America's wetlands. "But as we have not weathered all of Katrina yet, we ask the American people to keep us in their thoughts and prayers at this time."

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Link

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Governor Blanco

Announcement on Hurricane Evacuation

Aug. 28, 2005

ÔÇ£I want to thank the citizens of the Greater New Orleans area for the heroic, serious and courteous manner in which they have conducted themselves in the past several days.

ÔÇ£While no evacuation of this kind is perfect and I know that the citizens of the region are under great stress and strain, I am thankful to say that weÔÇÖve successfully evacuated hundreds of thousands of citizens in the last 24 hours.

ÔÇ£State officials, working with local and parish officials and officials in Mississippi, have worked hard to maintain a safe evacuation process.

ÔÇ£While many people are still on the roads trying to get out of the city, trafffic patterns indicate that everyone who has the ability to leave New Orleans will be able to evacuate by this evening.

ÔÇ£Several critical announcments must be made at this time.

1.Highway 61 will soon be closed to allow Jefferson Parish officials enough time to lay sandbags to protect the city of Kenner.

2.Also, at the State of MississippiÔÇÖs request, because of their vulnerable position on the eastern side of the storm, I-10 east bound at the Slidell I-10/I-12 interchange is closed. No traffic is being allowed to travel east on I-10 past that interchange at Slidell.

ÔÇ£The State Police are continuing to monitor traffic conditions. Traffic pressure on I-10 West is easing at the entry points in Orleans and Jefferson. Tropical storm winds are expected to reach the area earlier than first predicted.

ÔÇ£Therefore, in consultation with parish officials in Orleans and Jefferson, at this time we have stopped loading contraflow lanes. Normal traffic flow will resume.

ÔÇ£This does not mean that the evacuation has ended. I repeat ÔÇô we are not ending evacuation. With the exception of Highway 61 and I-10 eastbound at Slidell, all evacuation routes out of the city will remain open for citizens desiring to leave this evening. Contraflow loading has ended, but evacuation has not.

ÔÇ£We are ending contraflow loading for the following reasons:

1.Traffic conditions are improving in the New Orleans/Jefferson region.

2.The need to give DOTD and local officials time to move cones, barrells and other equipment which might become flying missiles in high-wind conditions.

3.To respect our neighbors in Mississippi who must give their personnel adequate time to make arrangements to move their equipment along their highway system.

4.The need to give emergency personnel and relief workers more flexibility to get in and out of the city in the hours leading up to the stormÔÇÖs landfall.

ÔÇ£To those citizens who have the ability to leave, I urge you to leave now. If you cannot leave the city, I urge you to go to one of the city-sponsored shelters in the New Orleans area.

ÔÇ£I am gravely concerned about reports coming in regarding those who are choosing not to evacuation. I strongly urge you to get to safety while there is still time to do so.

ÔÇ£I am very grateful for the way this evacuation was conducted. I recognize that it is impossible to accomplish this without some frustration. But again, I want to again thank the citizens of the New Orleans area for the outstanding way you have conducted yourselves in the past 24 hours.

ÔÇ£We will continue to monitor the continuing evacuation during the late afternoon and evening hours and I can assure those evacuating that we will continue to have adequate State Police and other public safety personnel on hand to maintain the best possible flow of traffic.

ÔÇ£I urge you to continue driving safely, protecting yourselves and your family members. I urge the citizens of Louisiana to join us in prayer so that no lives are lost because of Hurricane Katrina.

ÔÇ£I want to thank the following people: President Bush for his concern; Governor Haley Barbour of Mississippi and his outstanding team of professionals; the many governors who have called offering help;

ÔÇ£The parish presidents, mayors and elected officials of southeast Louisiana who have cooperated magnificently; the emergency personnel all across the state; FEMAÔÇÖs presence and support; the news media for delivering information to our people.

ÔÇ£This evacuation has been challenging, but even greater challenges face us in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. All Louisiana citizens stand ready to support the affected citizens of southeast Louisiana.ÔÇØ

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Office Of Govenor