Idea for an alternative multiplayer mode

[Guest Virtus]

I dont know if anyone has thought of this yet or not, however I have an idea for a multiplayer option that I think would be cool if included in BC3020.

I do alot of online gaming, different games over the past few years, however I have formed a group of friends via the net and we all usually play together. Alot of the games comming out latly are team based, and we have alot of fun with these. Games like RB6 and Tribes, were a group of players is in a team vrs another team of players, and the game is actually built for teamwork. In tribes, one of us usually commands, and the rest of us follow the commander, even if we are the only people on our team that are paying any attention we usually can accomplish quite a bit. And its alot of fun.

Anyways, my idea for BC multiplayer, why not have the option of having multiple players per battlecruiser? You could have one commander, who would control the BC's movement, who could assign the other players tasks, who controled the tacops comp and all ship funtions etc. You could have 4+ other people who took remote control over all the ships interceptors. Having actual players flying them would increase their effectivness, assuming the players are good. And just think of the teamwork you could have.

You could make it so that when a commander logs onto a server (if the game is going to be server based, which I have heard that is how its going to be) and gets into his BC, he can offer other people who are not in game yet, maybe like in some kind of pre game chat room if they want onboard his ship.

What would also be cool, is if say your commanding a BC, and you have a friend who is also commanding another BC, and you attack enemy forces together, and your friend gets hulled, that right before he blows you could beam him out and onboard your ship and let him man your PTA turrents or pilot a interceptor.

Just a thought...

Virtus

[Guest Iron Claw]

I had thought of this too but i didn't post it because i thought it would be too hard to do, with conflicting orders, latency, etc.

However, it would be very cool!

[Guest Virtus]

Actually, I dont think that on a server latency would be too big of a problem. Now, you wouldnt beable to put as many battle cruisers in one game if you did this, because the servers can only support so many players, and if the players are commanding their own BC or on somebody elses it wouldnt make a difference. Like you have the option of having 10 people in 10 battlecruisers, or 10 people in 2 battlecruisers, with 5 people per ship. Also the way that I personally would do it, would be that a battle cruiser with 5 people onboard could coexist in the same game with a battlecruiser that only had 1 person, or any number of people (but a max limit) onboard. That way its just an option, not a requirement.

And as far as conficting orders, as long as you only have one person giving out the orders, aka the commander, then it would work fine. Of course people might not follow those orders but well, that just means you only let people who you trust onto your ship

Virtus

[This message has been edited by Virtus (edited 01-30-99).]

[Guest Antti Junkkari]

I've seen that, it works. I have the Hind, the helicopter simulator. There you can play in multiplayer two persons in one helicopter, one is the shooter and one is the pilot. They have different cockpits. I'm sure this option is in Longbow too, but I haven't played it so I don't know..

Anyway it's pretty cool. The shooter can give advice with short macros, "go right", "go down" "slow".. etc.

It works.

This is not possible, but could be 'cool' that battlecruiser could host about 117 REAL people, hehe, marines, engineers, pilots, officers etc!!!

This is my science fiction.

I'm gonna be off the commlink for few days coz' I have completely fall in love and I really can't do anything else than think.. decided to write this mess. See ya guys.

------------------

Cmdr Junkkari at GCV-Karhu

Orion Fleet Leader

www.orionf.pp.fi

icq: 2506142

"If you want peace, you must prepare for war.."

[Guest]

LB2 has the same thing Antti :-)

Besides, AW3 also does this..with up to 8 gunners in an airplane!!!.

I think that a BC should take a max of 5 people.. one in the BC (commanding through TacOps) and the other 4 in their IC's. When the IC's are docked, those players can go into the turrets or fly the BC in the bridge (with the consent of the Commander).

My god that would be brutal.. player flown IC's! A BC with human complement could wipe out almost anything. "He with the AI dies" hehe.

[Guest Vorg]

War Birds also allows up to 8 gunners in bombers which have 8 gunner seats. It allows fewer gunners in the smaller bombers. Dawn of Aces has 2 two seater planes where the second person is gunner. Raider wars allows a gunner in any of the ships but the Grunt runner which allows 4 gunners.

In War Birds, gunners can move around. For example, you are in a big bomber and don't have a full crew. Any gunner can switch to any other seat which does not have some one at that time. Also, in all the above games, you can have observers which are basicly passangers who see what the pilot sees, but have no control. Gunners and passangers can all switch seats.

The Observer seat is mostly for training.

------------------

Vorg

Timothy D. Lenz

[This message has been edited by Vorg (edited 01-31-99).]

[Bad Mojo]

But hey, you're overlooking something. You gotta let players be able to take control of shuttles. You wouldn't believe the damage those suckers cause when used pinpoint ramming devices.

Works really well in tribes too. Grab a Hvy trans, and land on something of the enemy's thats important. *boom*

[Guest Virtus]

Your insane with the ramming bit!

Making a mental note: If ever in BC3020 multi player, I ever encounter "Bad Mojo" immediatly get the hell out of his way! That doesnt mean letting you win though.

I'll, uh, just uh attack you while my BC is sitting 4 jumps away cloaked, sending my IC's through the gates along with other carriers... hehehe

Anyways, except for the ramming point your right, I had automatically assumed that you guys would assume that extra players on a ship could use the shuttles. They actually do have a combat purpose, but it an't ramming. :-p

For instance, you know those really anoying enemy fighters, like the interdictor fighter, that are incredibly fast and a pain in the @$$ to kill? You know, the ones that your interceptor pilots can NEVER seem to wax, and that never actually do any damage to you anyways? Just launch a shuttle, set the fighter as the shuttles destination, put the autopilot on. The shuttle will usually get you in tractor beam range... Tada, fly trapped in the spiders web. Can be eaten at lesiure.

*Burp*

Also there is another big use for shuttles in BC3020. They are doing multiplayer right? That means that they have to totally redo the starbase/starstation systems. When you dock at a starstation, it cant freeze time, because other players are still active... I wouldnt be surprised if the new system didnt even take you out of the gameworld when you docked. It would be very cool IMHO to see your ship actually hooked up to the station in 3D. Therefore, you could use shuttles to bring yourself supplies. Spare parts, missles, medpacks, fuel minerals, replacement crew members, all while your BC sits in some system that your trying to defend. Basically setup mini supply lines for yourself.

Also, for the person said 5 people max: Yeah, if the current ammount of IC's stays the same sure. Well even then, maybe 6 max, that way theres one extra to help the commander manage ship systems. (BC3020 is probably going to be adding alot of these too)

However Im not sure if this is true or not, but I remember reading somewere that Mr. Smart was planning on increasing the total number of interceptors on carriers. It would be kinda cool to have 6 or 8 interceptors instead of just 4...

Virtus

[This message has been edited by Virtus (edited 01-31-99).]

[Gallion]

Good ideas all. However I like Bad Mojo's, there are possibilities.

1) Load SH up with explosives.

2) Target Bad Mojo's ship.

3) Issue "FLY TO" command.

4) set the timer.

5) kick back and laugh as the Bad Mojo fall victim to his own "tactic"

------------------

CMDR Gallion

GCV-Graf Spee, Corsair Wing

Wraith Fleet

[Guest Vorg]

How about just hit reverse and let him come, then start chucking out mines and firing missiles. Nothing like a few speed bumps to slow him down

------------------

Vorg

Timothy D. Lenz

[Bad Mojo]

You're overlooking something gents. I have a cloaking field too. And what makes you think I ain't gonna be shooting at ya as I come barrelin' down on ya like a recently divorced truck driver on a bender?

Cmdr Bad Mojo

GCV Vae Victus

"That's right bambi, just stare at 'dem headlights...*SQUISH*"

[Guest Sean Ellis]

This is a subject very close to my heart.

I am an ardent fan of BC3000AD, and hold Derek in much admiration for his unbending dedication to his beliefs. Like Derek I have had a similar goal for more than 15 years now, but without the "Smarts" :-) to gather the technical knowledge and hold my life together at the same time, it has taken me a little longer to pull the programming together. However this said, I am only interested in producing the final product for my and my close friends use. My goal is also a little bigger (if that could be possible), and to this end I have built my ship for real, full size ( well the bridge at least, as this is all that is required ). Sort of like a military simulator, complete with motion and environmental simulation. The craft is meant to be a little smaller so resembles the set of a STTNG shuttle, and is meant to be as realistic/believable as possible. The programmed universe is also infinite but I have had to frig the realtime events for the very reasons Derek points out about trying to get the whole universe to function at the same time.

Anyway thats where I am coming at this from, and BC3000AD fits my scenario quite well and to this end have already made the game cooperative multi player. Its quite a complicated setup, whereby a number of keyboards have been multiplexed together, so each command station has a set of keys that action the various parts of the game (no actual keyboards, its all glass panel interfaces, just using the drivers). Its not perfect as when each player takes control of their part of the game the others are locked out, with only a screen capture of what they were looking at to content them till they get control back. It works well enough to get a good feeling of what it would be like if the game were truly able to do this, and is a great stop gap until our project is at a good enough state to be as exiting.

So, if BC3020AD could be made to do this, it would probably set my stuff back another decade!

See you on Mars (AW)

Valkyrie

[Supreme Cmdr]

I have been planning (and those who have followed this development, have read about from time to time) for sometime to allow co-op play from within the BC3K. Nothing complex, just the ability for various players to be different key crew members. For instance, when the game is being setup..(and this is a rough sketch from my current dev docs, mind you) it could be something like this (this is just brief):

quote:

---

Player #1 (FO/CMDR)

- responsible for all flight and decision related issues. In short, getting from here to to there, is his problem. He would actually be the Commander and not necessarily just the 'pilot' per se. Also has complete control over the game

---

quote:

---

Player #2 (TO)

- Weapon systems. PTA, FATAL, turrets, ship deployment as well as tacOPS control (though he would normally ask the CMDR for permission to make certain critical decisions)

---

quote:

---

Player #3 (CO)

- Troop/Ship readiness etc. If it is going out, this guy gets to make sure that the AI personnel are prepped for the job, including searches, weapons armanent/loading etc

---

quote:

---

Player #4 (CE)

- Ship repairs, power management etc

---

quote:

---

Player #5 (MO)

- Medical ops. Cloning, treatment, infection screening (when people come back from off-ship excursions, handing out condoms etc

---

quote:

---

Aux players (Pilots or Marines)

- The pilot and marine slots can be filled by players and the others handled by AI pilots/marines as normal. So player #6 could be a pilot assigned to IC1, player #7 assigned as co-pilot (though the rules would be relaxed so that only 1 pilot is required to fly an IC), player #8 as a marine etc. So when deploying an ATV or shuttle, player #8 (and everyone else who assumes a marine persona) gets to fly the craft to the combat zone or transported by the TO from tacops. The pilot gets to fly the IC when launched etc

---

However, online gaming it not exactly an organized affair. To get people to play in co-op effectively is non-existent especially if the game is about racking up kills and chest thumping.

In the above scenario:

CMDR: I would always want to be commander because it gives me control. If I screw up then Rattler and his crew over at Spectre, get to paint tatoos in our honor, on their butt cheeks.

TO: Since I share some commands, ie, tacops with the CMDR, it could get hairy and I'd probably get put it in the detention hold for disobeying indirect orders (now there's a shock!) or gross insubordination.

CO: Well, think about this. All I would be doing is watching the game as directed by the other interesting crew. All I have for company are a set if AI controlled morons who couldn't catch a cold, let alone catch an Intruder if he/she was mooning them from the floor above. Of course, give me a team of player controlled marines and it gets worse. I can hear the constant "...are we there yet?"..."when do I get deployed"..."darn it Derek!"

CE: Same as the CO but I only have AI controlled SEs to direct. Of course, if our trusted commander and his moronic sidekick TO, decide to take us into Insurgent territory on minimal shields, no cloak and a prayer, guess who has to make sure we get out alive and get those repairs cracking. I can just hear it now "...hey moron, turn your butt toward the Sun if you want more power, the NRE is shot cause you and you girlfriend up front, screwed up!" or "...we have no weapons control because its shot and won't be up for another 10 mins. Use foul language if you come up against a hostile entity and hope it works!"

MO: I doubt that I would want to play the MO Why? because I am action oriented and thise assignments, like the CE and CO, are boring. I'd be hoping the commander screws up and we get killed so that I get to choose another assignment when we respawn. Either that, or I inject an intruder with the Ebola virus and set him loose. Either way, I'd be getting off the ship after experiencing boredom at least once. Heck, I'd probably just saunter over to the airlock location (new in BC:3020AD) and let myself out...ending it all.

Pilot: if the commander of the BC delays in deploying me, I get to sit in front of the machine, twiddling my thumbs and watching the game until he does. Assuming the pilots have launch control once their ship is ready, the commander should be seeing the "unauthorized launch detected" message a lot. I'd be up on charges every time we play. Also, I if I come back, I still get to sit around while the CE gets to assign SEs (AI) and the CO gets to assign FEs to rearm my craft. Tell me to escort the BC when all I want to do is play offensive and rack up kills..ha!, escort this, pal!

Marine: As a marine (at least without the Strike Pak add-on), I get to, again, sit around and watch the game go on, while I wait to be called into action to go after intruders or deployed on a planet to take out a SAM. In fact, once I get deployed, I probably won't want to come back to the ship! I'd probably be pissed if the TO brought me back when I wasn't ready. If I have to activate my IFF emitter in order to be designated for a pickup (as dictated by tacops rules) I'll break the darn thing as soon as my feet land on solid ground. Then, I get to ambush every hapless NPC or real life player for rations and ammo when I run out. Hell, leave me on Sygan with enough ammo and rations. Come back for me in a week. I'll be in sniper heaven, provided that the Insurgents dont send in shock troops after me.

The BC3K kernel of engines already supports independent control access and that is how the NPC crew operate. Converting this to manual control and modified for multiplayer, is just normal work in the addition of features. However, as I mentioned above, the end will probably never justify the means because this sort of co-op will be one of those features that is hardly used because everyone wants to command their own ship and make do with an NPC crew.

I would have loved to carry out this original plan for multiplayer because it would be far simpler and easier to process, than using an NPC crew. However, as I mention, it would be a wasted exercise. In fact, as we speak, several aspects of BC3K as you know it, will change in multiplayer or no more than 4 people would be able to play at anyone time. The crew processing and other AI tasks are fine because that is all client-side operation. However, imagine having 16 people playing and each with access to 13 deployable ships and 40 marines!

So a LOT of rules change for multiplayer and this revolves around the amount of ships/crew that can be deployed and active at any one time (per player). The reason that my original idea above would have been better is because with human players, you just fill in the slots and don't use any NPCs. Less processing, less development, less hassles, faster game.

I do intend on doing BC3K Online (online only game, like UO, Everquest etc) and I will get the opportunity to do my original design described above. When? Dunno. I would guess sometime in 2000.

[Guest Antti Junkkari]

Now THAT'S something everyone can bite on.

E'nuf said.

------------------

Cmdr Junkkari at GCV-Karhu

Orion Fleet Leader

www.orionf.pp.fi

icq: 2506142

"If you want peace, you must prepare for war.."

[Pandora]

Having a player control specific officers/marines sounds very interesting - and extremely boring.

Counter suggestion with much less of that 'rules' stuff! <g>

Something that could work is a no-holds-barred co-op game.

The maximum reasonable number for this might be 2 players per BC but the coded limit could go up to as many as 4 or 5.

All of these players would have full access to all BC systems and support craft.

That's the basic premise.

First you always want a human at the BC's controls (weapons, shield, flight, cloak) because the FO/TO combo just plain sux at keeping it alive for extended periods. (Nothing personal, you know <g> )

Player #2 could then rummange through the frontends as needed, keep an eye on TacOps and probes and generally be a busy bee.

The only clash you get is when 2 persons want manual control of a craft and that should be a no-brainer, code-wise. One can only take over by turning off the A/P and that can't be done if it is already off. No problem.

If Player #1 doesn't want to fly the big momma any more (or loses connection), he turns the BC over to A/P and Player #2 can now sit in the big armchair or let the BC go about it's business under full AI control.

I also see no problem with 2 players operating Tacops simultaneously.

They only give orders to the 'responsive' craft, after all. If they can't organize this (split tasks) then it's their fault. <shrugs>

Their client does all the work (like displaying a planet's surface) and all they do is giving orders to the actors under this BC's control.

Yes, you could then wage war in 3 different regions simultaneously if this is a Ter/Mil BC with Fleet Control enabled and enough players on board.

(...and all players having HexiumII/800 systems and cable modems. <g> )

You'd only need one organizational rule. Player 1 is Host, Der Boss, Big Cheese.

He can kick other players if he doesn't like their style/performance/deodorant.

We'll need something to keep those Derek Smart style players under control. <g>

Everything else is 100% redundant and everyone can do everything.

Limit players to a specific position/task and this thing becomes a lesson in boredom for most of the involved players and nobody is gonna use that 'cool' feature.

Players should be able to do whatever is the most fun/productive at the time, manning the turrets to help take out that cap ship or SS, jumping in an IC to take out some fighter escorts or clear mines, keep overwatch on Tacops, heck, maybe even drive a SH back to a SS to grab some missile reloads... you get the idea.

The AI officers can do all the chores like assign FE to ready an IC or take the garbage out. They do that quite well and only need the occasional whack over the head. <g>

All organization should be left to the players.

Controlling the use of resources or cash is not the programmer's job. BC3k is for players with a few brain cells of their own, after all. <g>

If you have a heli sim and your CP/Gunner fires 5 Hellfires at a truck - yeah, so? Get a smarter CP next time, buddy.

Pan,

Lead Tester BC3000AD

writing at 22:03 Bavarian Time (GMT+1) on 5 Feb 99

[Supreme Cmdr]

LOL, pretty cool Pan. Send me this as an official fleshed out proposal via the proper channels. I'll augment it with what I already have and a couple of modified ideas I just got. We can polish it as we go along.

[Guest Myownself]

I don't know a lot about networking internet stuff, but it sounds to me like multiplay battlecruiser will need a cable modem or ADSL. I just dont see that kind of depth coming out of my 56k modem.

Please enlighten me, thanks in advance.

[Guest Antti Junkkari]

Don┬┤t know about 56K, but I hope ISDN is enough. If it not in single, I'll use it as double! Should be a speed of 128 000 bps as you sure know

Yeeehaa!

------------------

Cmdr Junkkari at GCV-Karhu

Orion Fleet Leader

www.orionf.pp.fi

icq: 2506142

"If you want peace, you must prepare for war.."

[Guest]

Antti, most if the current ISP's do not support ISDN 2.B channel use, so you would not get the speeds, but you would get the double telephone charge.

------------------

EarthCOM-Officer T. C. McQueen

ECV-Saratoga

15th EarthCOM Planetary Force, Alpha Group

"One time a marine, always amarine, and to the hell with anyting that stands in our way!"

Earth Command

www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/6297/