Lotharr

quote: I ask for an explanation and you quote this arrogant bastard If I had to pick between his arrogance or yours I think I'd have to go with his... quote: It makes sense, though I would like to see evidence before I believed this unilaterally. Darling the evidence isn't that far at all.... quote: I am a vicious and educated American Lets not get carried away now darling... quote: A price drop would be temporary; this is about long term oil interests. If the US takes control of Iraq, it would give American oil companies a monopoly (or the big slice of an oligopoly) on the world's second largest oil reserves. Such a benefit clearly outweighs a temporary price drop. Yup... quote: because that's the people with the most power are against slaverly History would seem to suggest an ongoing struggle to improve....those in power usually resist this change because of fear, narrow-mindedness, and complacency. This struggle to promote the good in people is not just a way to keep people in line....that is true cynicism I would guess that seeking to improve as an individual and as a society is the ultimate challenge....more fulfilling then owning some new shiny thing or trying to play master of the universe in the ultimate foot ball game....but one wouldn't know it when barraged by propaganda that strokes the ego and promises "success" if you live only for yourself. I don't think we will ever reach perfection but if we do not try then we will most likely not survive. The idea of realizing our flaws and trying to encode this understanding into structures for governance..while promoting the individual to grow and be free of oppression is an on going process and a just ideal.... Now more than ever we have to try to remove the power from the corrupt and the greedy to insure the survival of our planet. There are only so many resources to be gathered in current forms and this planet can only take so much abuse. As an American I am not entitled to live at the expense of others and vice versa....to live so out of balance is not moral and in the end will ultimately prove to be self destructive. Does that mean everyone has to be 100% equal? No, but the line has to be drawn somewhere....no person is worth a billion dollars annually....just because a person is born with a golden spoon up their arse doesn't make them fit to do much of anything but try to gather more spoons...fine...but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit back and let people be turned into exploitable assets because a small group of greedy sociopaths thinks their games are part of some manifest destiny....I picked up the notion somewhere that people were born equalnot just AmericansI dont know where.maybe all that liberal education [ 10-12-2002, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: Well, some explanation might be nice, I truthfully am curious. As for something inside be having been excised, I havent a clue, I have never really felt much for others, though I do remember being more compassionate when I was younger, but honestly I have always worked to not care much about others."The fundamental source of all your errors, sophisms and false reasonings is a total ignorance of the natural rights of mankind. Were you once to become acquainted with these, you could never entertain a thought, that all men are not, by nature, entitled to a parity of privileges. You would be convinced, that natural liberty is a gift of the beneficent Creator to the whole human race, and that civil liberty is founded in that; and cannot be wrested from any people, without the most manifest violation of justice." Alexander Hamilton quote: First of all, I have to agree with Jaguar, its hard to really understand what youre talking about, be specific. I was talking about the privileged class that uses massive imbalances in wealth to keep a certain people one top and running things while everyone else is looking for crumbs, praying for a chance to sell out and be part of the tiny fold.... "Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." John Adams "If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. we ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams There is a great hypocrisy infecting this country. One that will not go away by pretending it doesnt exist. It will only grow stronger as the evidence and casualties mount.... "No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffusd and Virtue is preservd. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauchd in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders." Samuel Adams We claim to be courageous and educated as Americans yet we are manipulated by fear in almost every way and have one of the worst education levels in the industrialized world.there is a pervasive lie going around. "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin quote: This country was based on ME, ME, ME, you have responsibility for yourself, it is NOT my responsibility to take care of those that cannot take care of themselves, unless they were within my immediate family, otherwise they are their families responsibility not mine. Property was very important idea to insuring freedom and liberty...but it was a bit more than me me me....

Are you a CEO...Republican or both? I'm not sure your capable of understanding what I'm talking about....I think the part of you that can make a human great has somehow been removed, crushed, or neglected.... I don't think Jaguar would appreciate you talking jive about the history of this country....sweetie.

I don't want to pry but does your new job include packing the hot ****?

http://www.satirewire.com/news/june02/ceonistas.shtml Could this happen? Or did it already....

quote: Sorry, that is the biggest load of BS I have ever heard. Straight out of the Democrat call book. Sorry, you need to do better then that. Anyone who would like to know who in the war party had some trouble actually getting in one while the getting was good....take a look... http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html The author served in Vietnam....prove it wrong if you can.... quote: Oh dear, hypocrisy, thats horrible Everyone is a hypocrite darling, to a lesser or greater degree, and I see nothing wrong with it. Heh...please don't call me darling....it makes me feel extremely dirty coming from you... I know you have the true answers to all these questions...but could you spare the ignorant the chance to discuss the things we care about... like our fellow citizens and the course of this nation.....I know the concept of the fellow citizen doesn't mean a whole lot to you, but for some of us, that are genuinely concerned with the plight of others, it does....we know you are the enlightened one. and when we are done chasing our tails rest assured we will come crawling....so until then...? Please. As for the rest, I will get to it when I get a chance.

Those in the Bush admin who push the hardest for war have conveniently never actually been in one. The Bush people and his corporate backers see liberty and personal freedom as a hindrance to war fighting...and various other things that protect the average citizen. Clinton was a snake but Bush is a corporate pawn.... Too many Americans are living in excess while scores of people die by our actions and inactions. We gear our foreign policy to maintain an imbalance that keeps a certain dream alive...a dream that serves a small few and a dream that has corrupted our basic ideals. There is a great hypocrisy infecting this country. One that will not go away by pretending it doesnÔÇÖt exist. It will only grow stronger as the evidence and casualties mount.... You can believe in the Constitution, freedom, due process, fairplay and equality for all, while maintaining Christian ideals without being manipulated by the hubris and greed that have come to dominate too many in this nation....you just have to believe there are alternatives....there are.

Heh heh...you got me on that one...

No dude it was a joke....like we are always going back and forth with our views but nothing changes....your still insane and Im right.get it?

quote: Whatever Lothar. Whatever Jagwire.

Here this is another place that shows there is some other force at work.... * So, by and large, is the American Conservative. Like so many isolationists, Buchanan revels in the copybook of world history. His calls for peace, however, come in cadences that are strangely martial and at times Kipling-esque. In his columnÔÇöpresumably a regular feature of the magazineÔÇöhe reminds us that hubris undid "the Ottoman, Russian Austro-Hungarian, and German empires in World War I, the Japanese in World War II, the French and the British the morning after." Guess who's next: "We will soon launch an imperial war on Iraq with all the 'On-to-Berlin!' bravado with which French poilus and British Tommies marched in August 1914." Once Saddam falls, he warns, "the neoconservatives who pine for a 'World War IV' " will push for "short sharp wars on Syria and Iran. Already Israel is tugging at our sleeve, reminding us not to forget Libya." Saddam's Most Terrifying Weapon Quit Fretting About Grade Inflation CSI's Redheaded Stepchild Does this anti-imperialist argument sound familiar? It should. It's the same one the anti-war left is making. Which raises a question: Why did Buchanan miss the opportunity to revive an "Old Right/New Left" alliance of the kind that arose during the mid-1960s, when right-wing thinkers such as Murray Rothbard and Leonard Liggio found common cause with the radical leftist William Appleman Williams, all of them alarmed by what Williams called the "centralized and consolidated" state that was flexing its oversized muscles in Vietnam? It seemed eccentric at the time, but this fusion gave new ├®lan to the libertarian right and its long-standing critiques of the garrison state and "Wall Street socialism." * MSN editorial

quote: Oh... so this guy thinks 9-11 was some minor inconvience? He thinks that it can get a lot worse. If a person wanted to they could find information that shows American policy is imperialistic. Not because we want it that way but because that is the nature of the "free market"....and being on top. Because our economy is dependant on others we will have an economic interest in certain areas we would otherwise stay away from.. Having an interest is one thing. Having the most powerful military force in the history of man is something else. Our reliance on power is the lazy answer in a world where civilized and wanna be civilized societies have to work their issues out in nonlethal manner. Hence, the resentment of Bush and his bully tactics...and unfortunately America in general. All civilized societies disagree with the notion that might makes right....except lately with the so called "leader of the free world". They have a culture that is very feudalistic in nature....and very devout. Male adherence to Muslims belief is significantly higher then in current Christian circles. They see capitalism as inherently counter to the teachings of Muhammad and anti-Muslim.a form of evil.a real evil in the perception of too many.. This strong faith...like that of the Christian martyrs and medieval crusaders should not be underestimated. If we attack Iraq without Saddam doing something that is clearly provocative and anti-Muslim in nature (attacking a country with out reason *yes that is highly subjective* ) we could face a levels of hate no nation has ever seen If this potential movement for jihad turns into something global.Id bet this country will be forever altered. to the point of impossible recognition by the standards of current living, liberty, freedoms etc. That is if, we as a nation can survive the radical reinterpretation of our Constitution by a government that is charged with saving a society by having to control that society..our daily lives evento make us safe.from the terror. But lets just take a step back.what if today only 1 out of every 500,000 Muslims join Jihad because of our unilateral support of Israel and other questionable agreements..what if that changes to 1 out of every 250,000 with our action in the Mid east.. Is it worth it? Intelligence is notoriously poor at penetrating these fundamentalist groups.and throwing money at the issue doesnt change that.we are still going to suffer attack after attack. We are being told to risk our way of life for what? To give freedom and liberty to a people that may not be ready for our brand of these ideals..for a people who see us as evil.a people we will have to destroy then rebuild in the American ideal..to promote what? Free Trade..stabilized oil markets.strategic oil controlis it worth it to you and me? I can understand the billionaire scumbag but do these reasons work for us? And Jag your wrongOn CNN today Wolf hand an expert in to talk about the economy.he says we should go to war as soon as possible..the uncertainty is hurting the market..and like the last war we will release oil from the national reserve and that will lower prices until the new oil can start flowing.To wolfs credit he did ask once about American oil interest.unfortunately the guy sidestepped the question and talked about other aspects of the economy. Time to look at the real interests and whats really at stake.Saddam got his job because he is reliably selfishhe is a business mandeterrence works. Bin Laden and other groups have labeled this man as an infidel and a potential target of assassination.Saddam is probably one of the best supporters of the war on terror because he has been labeled for termination by these groups there is no connection. The American people dont want this warand for good reason. Heh heh beat that Dredd....

I would like to make an informed decision based on facts.....not fear. Bush has not presented anything resembling fact....Kennedy gave the country photo's...all this guy can give us is fumbled speeches and wild west tough guy talk.... Sheeple is reserved for a people that blindly follow policy without demanding any real evidence.... Face it Jag in a country where 1 out of 5 citizens don't have health care in the modern world....2 mil are incarcerated.....one government branch chooses the officials of the other...and it costs millions to run for office ....all the media is owned by 5 people..you and me are looking more and more like second class citizens....and Im seriously rethinking my position on gun control One dollar one vote..... [ 10-04-2002, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Thank dredd and all those editorials.... Ahhh Jag, ever the calm and collected rational thinker I've come to loathe and admire Now watch...Dredd is going to write another page long rebuttal.... You two are an interesting pair...one will spurt emotional nonsense.....while the other will write such a load one doesn't have enough time to read it...let alone respond.... However in the end the truth comes out..... occasionally it makes a difference....usually it just drives people deeper into the world they've built or had built for them....well maybe oneday... Oh this just in.: 300+ days after Enron: 2 charges brought against former execs at Enron and 25 others through out the rest of corporate America.....the economy is still falling....and the corporate media drone on about war....well....between commercials that are trying to get you to invest...invest?....yes invest...I believe they think we're stupid....why would think that... God bless big business and the new aristocracy... [ 10-03-2002, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

You guys are a strange breed.... All the people that actually served advocated we go slow...Colin Powell, Anthony Zinni, Wesley Clark, Norman Schwarzkopf.... Guess who wants to bomb first and think later...Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle...and Bush himself took a sheltered position in the National Guard.... Well at least we listened to those who actually served....strange days.... The below sums it up pretty good. http://www.democracymeansyou.com/satire/explainified.htm Dredd you must have a lot of spare time...

quote: He is in the National Guard, and is afraid that if PRESIDENT Bush actually goes in, he will actually have to fight, when in fact he was expecting some kind of free ride from the taxpayers. There are those who plan war and those who fight it.

I guess we'll have to see what we see.

quote: Bush Should Have Stopped It I don't play that game. quote: How Can We Invade Saddam When He Used To Be Our Friend? He was never the friend of the American people. He was chums with Rummy and Regan. They had lots of friend like him. We've learned a lesson about serving the greater good I think. quote: If We Preemptively Attack Iraq America operated in a clearly polarized world in the past. That is no longer the case. International politics have become more complicated. We don't need cowboy tactics or foreign policy controlled by the defense department. Even Kissinger agreed during his recent testimony before the Senate that might doesn't make right. And could not conceive of Bush acting unilaterally.....but I could. This is an issue of legitimacy. The world is becoming more resistant to US decree. Especially in the face of our concentrations of wealth, waste, and questionable democratic practices and competencies. Business as usual may have to change. quote: Insist That We Give Inspections A Chance He can only screw around if we let him. quote: It's About The Ordinary People Very much so. We have led the way on human rights issues and that has given us the moral right to lead. When we start losing that we start losing legitimacy. And I really could care less what a Republican would say about this. Big Business is destroying the lives of Americans. While both parties represent wealth the Republicans are shameless. America Inc. is sick. It uses good Americans who believe in family and Christian ideals to provide the voting base in their quest for the almighty dollar. It also leases our elected officials. I believe this sham will be exposed for what it is in time. quote: Keep Moving That Goalpost Not me home boy. If he violates UN resolutions he needs to pay the price. But not because of the war on terror. These two issues are not related....because of international law and global justice. quote: Never Admit That You Are Helping Terrorists And Dictators That is subjective. Some look at Bush as a dictator and his war advisors as terrorists. quote: Pretend To Be Offended When You're Accused Of Anti-Semitism Right....that's why America wouldn't let all the Jews into this country after WWII. Heh heh...that is so stupid. quote: Remember Who The Real Enemies Are Ever here of feeding the fire? Guess not. quote: Show Me Osama's Corpse Does it matter anymore? We aren't even fighting the war on terror. quote: Solutions? Uh.... Focus on the war on terror. Do not make more terrorists by foolish unilateral actions. Do not alienate those countries we need in order to be effective in the real war on terror. Hopefully "elect" a new president that can a least read a teleprompter. quote: Tell Those 'Chickenhawks' What For How about we listen to the experts and ask the tough questions that will get real answers. quote: There's No Reason To Bomb Saddam! Hey we can always find a reason! quote: War For Oil! Yes it is. Review the facts. This is a long term strategic oil grab that translates directly into power over other nations. quote: We'll Destabilize the Middle-East It is very possible.

I thought I described him perfectly. He's like too many in this country...his ignorance (lack of knowledgeto be PC) is second only to his aggressiveness....I am not trying to insult him but rather put him in perspective. I really don't care what he thinks about my being a soldier...he thinks my views bring some kind of shame to the profession. Being a soldier in the American Army is about defending the ideas of democracy, freedom, law, and equality....we have not fully realized these ideals but with time I believe we will....I'm sounding off with my beliefs and so is he....however, where as I realize this is what this country is all about....it seems to scare and offend him. This potential war is about oil..it is clear as the evidence is reviewed.the hype is on the liberty and freedom we will spread..but accomplishing that is not clear. We dont know how many American will be killed in an urban assault. We have no plan to get out.like Vietnam. We dont know how much it will cost. We dont have real linkage of Saddam and terrorists. Blowback is a real issue that is not being discussed. We dont have any clear evidence that he has WMD or how close he is. We have a group that has attacked us and we cant seem to make much progress in apprehended them so we look for an easy target..and more importantly securing oil for our future use. To ask American service members to risk their life without even a real discussion of the FACTS is inappropriate. When American generals, on the job right now, express doubts before being stifled SERIOUS doubts are raised in my mind. Jag acts like a chicken-hawk and should try to get a job in the Pentagon. [ 09-29-2002, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: And deserve treatment that shows that fact. Nobody deserves that....not in the tallest of buildings or the poorest of shacks....

Nope I'm a combatant....I just fight. No clearance required....and I'm an NCO. I take care of my soldiers and accomplish the mission. I could care less what you think my views mean to you....because itÔÇÖs clear your just a trigger happy fascist while I'm still in the Guard and you just sit around and talk junk that your not even educated on. [ 09-28-2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Truth hurts....sorry.

I dunno....with things going the way they are I might prefer a shootout I know I'm going to lose to an America that destroys freedom for war..... But the above are just facts I pulled up.... I watched on TV in DC how these guards in full riot gear were hitting young girls that were demonstrating against big money.... I hope they never expect me to hit young women...

They are just "animals" anyway right Jag Did you say you believed in Constitutional National Socialism.....? Was that it? [ 09-27-2002, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: Your making the assumption that Saddam is going to nuke his own oil if he gets WMDs. Great idea....really....why? I refuse to believe you are that dense. quote: You are seeing the world with such a strange set of glasses, reality isn't even close to what you are seeing. Listen up: From the National Energy Policy Development Group...also known as the Cheney Report....from the white house. " Increasing energy supplies while protecting the environment is the third challenge. Even with successful conservation efforts, America will need more energy. Renewable and alternative fuels offer hope for Americas energy future. But they supply only a small fraction of present energy needs. The day they fulfill the bulk of our needs is still years away. Until that day comes, we must continue meeting the nations energy requirements by the means available to us. Estimates indicate that over the next 20 years, U.S. oil consumption will increase by 33 percent, natural gas consumption by well over 50 percent, and demand for electricity will rise by 45 percent. If Americas energy production grows at the same rate as it did in the 1990s we will face an ever-increasing gap. Increases on this scale will require preparation and action today. Yet America has not been bringing on line the necessary supplies and infrastructure. Extraordinary advances in technology have transformed energy exploration and production. Yet we produce 39 percent less oil today than we did in 1970, leaving us ever more reliant on foreign suppliers. On our present course, America 20 years from now will import nearly two of every three barrels of oil . a condition of increased dependency on foreign powers that do not always have Americas interests at heart. Our increasing demand for natural gas . one of the cleanest forms of energy . far exceeds the current rate of production. We should reconsider any regulatory restrictions that do not take technological advances into account. " From International Energy Annual 2000 Report World Reserves (in billions of barrels) Asia 44.0 Africa 74.9 former USSR 58.9* (more I bet) West Europe 17.4 North America 55.0 Cental + South America 94.5 Mid East 683.5 These are the real forces at work here. Cheney's/Rummy's administration could care less about the humanitarian issues....plus they have no real evidence that Iraq is close to a bomb...Iran is probably closer. Would it surprise anyone to know that all the people (more killers really) Cheney would install in New Iraq (the peoples republic of something) have vowed to cancel oil deals with any foreign powers that do not support America.no matter what we do.....imagine that.... Anyone who thinks that Saddam is actively supporting terrorists is just wrong. The reason Regan/Rummy set this loser up is because they knew he is an opportunist scum bag that is all about self preservation....he was an asset....that has now become obsolete. This is about money for the policy makers and revenge for the patriots. Supported by the faithful crusaders and those that believe in the abstract notion of freedom.....but not necessarily in the Constitutional version of itand it stinks. No one should have WMD.from the petty and evil dictatorial regime to the God inspired fundamental/militaristic "democratic" one.Hebrew or Christian. Truth, law, due process, and fairplay.....this is what I value. This is my stance as a patriot. [ 09-27-2002, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]