Lotharr

quote: When exactly does a phrase like "we need a new gov't" become treasonous? That happens when the government starts threatening the middle class....well...here anyway...we have an appointed president and a whole country full of those who don't want to rock the boat or were just happy Bush come out the winner....nobody (media) really understands that everything we claim to stand for has been subverted....the reason...why rock the boat...we got survivor and the miracle whisk....we can ÔÇ£work it outÔÇØ.

quote: while patriots are proud of the way we escaped from England's rule. We are....and we acknowledge the French, who were the decisive factor in making that happen. The point is to teach history as it happened.for all the different reasons. We shouldn't bury any part of the past to construct happy little jingoists

I thought the following was outstanding: quote: I wore my flag tonight. First time. Until now I haven't thought it necessary to display a little metallic icon of patriotism for everyone to see. It was enough to vote, pay my taxes, perform my civic duties, speak my mind, and do my best to raise our kids to be good Americans. Sometimes I would offer a small prayer of gratitude that I had been born in a country whose institutions sustained me, whose armed forces protected me, and whose ideals inspired me; I offered my heart's affections in return. It no more occurred to me to flaunt the flag on my chest than it did to pin my mother's picture on my lapel to prove her son's love. Mother knew where I stood; so does my country. I even tuck a valentine in my tax returns on April 15. So what's this doing here? Well, I put it on to take it back. The flag's been hijacked and turned into a logo ÔÇö the trademark of a monopoly on patriotism. On those Sunday morning talk shows, official chests appear adorned with the flag as if it is the good housekeeping seal of approval. During the State of the Union, did you notice Bush and Cheney wearing the flag? How come? No administration's patriotism is ever in doubt, only its policies. And the flag bestows no immunity from error. When I see flags sprouting on official lapels, I think of the time in China when I saw Mao's little red book on every official's desk, omnipresent and unread. But more galling than anything are all those moralistic ideologues in Washington sporting the flag in their lapels while writing books and running Web sites and publishing magazines attacking dissenters as un-American. They are people whose ardor for war grows disproportionately to their distance from the fighting. They're in the same league as those swarms of corporate lobbyists wearing flags and prowling Capitol Hill for tax breaks even as they call for more spending on war. So I put this on as a modest riposte to men with flags in their lapels who shoot missiles from the safety of Washington think tanks, or argue that sacrifice is good as long as they don't have to make it, or approve of bribing governments to join the coalition of the willing (after they first stash the cash.) I put it on to remind myself that not every patriot thinks we should do to the people of Baghdad what Bin Laden did to us. The flag belongs to the country, not to the government. And it reminds me that it's not un-American to think that war ÔÇö except in self-defense ÔÇö is a failure of moral imagination, political nerve, and diplomacy. Come to think of it, standing up to your government can mean standing up for your country. What do you think? Bill Moyers http://www.pbs.org/now/commentary/moyers19.html

quote: while free speech exists, should a person in a position of authority; like the school teacher be able to use it to influence the minds of people so young they don't have the ability to fully comprehend something so big? Sure....it works for the advertisers and the junk they constantly pushed on young children. You have convicted felons appointed to high office....you have even worse running huge companies...and these people are supposed to own and regulate media outlets.... quote: the teacher is out of line. let him talk to his fellow teachers in his staff room about such things. not students who are compelled to go to school under law, and who happen to be in his class. This is interesting also....you have a lot of teachers that still indoctrinate children with the happy happy nonsense version of early American expansion and cultural genocide. Personal politics should stay out of the class room....just like the Disnefied history.... On free speech....everything...flag burning the whole nine....can't yell fire in a crowded theater etc.... Oh yeah...money should not translate into access....it should not decide elections....and it should not be the final moral authority.... [ 02-28-2003, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

*Warning* Questioning fundamental ideas of freedom and liberty can lead to black listing, detention, torture, and assassination. In the event of confusion or misunderstanding of the American Way please report to your nearest TV set and select any corporate media outlet for reeducation. This has been a public service announcement of: TIA "Freedom is having nothing to hide" In association with: Halliburton Industries "Remember, war creates peace and jobsit just makes sense."

quote: Saddam Hussein has steadfastly refused to abide by more than 17 demands by the United Nations that he divest himself of weapons of mass destruction. He has refused  but its all about oil. There are more than 100 U.N. Security Council resolutions being violated by member states. Iraq is in violation of, at most, 16 of them. Ironically, Washington has effectively blocked the enforcement of U.N. Security Council resolutions against many other nations, since the list include such countries as Morocco, Indonesia, Israel and Turkey that are allied with the United States. quote: Saddam Hussein has used chemical and biological weapons against his own people  but its all about oil When have the Kurds (those gassed) been anyones "people" they want their independence but that "different".... quote: Saddam says he has no nuclear weapons program. Inspectors find over 3000 pages of documentary evidence to the contrary  but its all about oil Israel has over 200 nuclear weapons but it's all about "peace". quote: Saddam says his missiles cant fly more than the allowed 150 miles See above...imagine that....or you could look at India who is right around the corner. quote: The UN inspectors were sent to Iraq not to find weapons, but to verify that Saddam had disarmed. Hans Blix says that they have not disarmed  but its all about oil. Hans Blix says that Saddam Hussein has not accepted the fact that he must disarm. But its all about oil. Crap...admin position was unfettered access...please... quote: The United States has an energy policy. All major industrial nations have energy policies. But the fact that the US has an energy policy means  its all about oil Non-issue....until you look at the Cheney report and realize the sky rocketing demand for oil in the US by 2020. quote: Dick Cheney used to work for Halliburton. Halliburton is an energy company. This proves its all about oil With Cheney in the CEO's seat, Halliburton helped Iraq reconstruct its war-torn oil industry with $73 million worth of equipment and services -- becoming Baghdad's biggest such supplier. Oil and gas companies donated $26.7 million to Bush and his fellow Republicans during the 2000 election and another $18 million in 2002. Halliburton has the contract on supplying US soldiers with many necessities. After "liberation" many debunked Iraqi oil fields need to be "fixed". Guess whose primary business is fixing oil fields.... The Bush administration has a position firmly planted upon sh*t. Those who look critically will find the truth. Some Americans are not scared, like "their" media tells them to be....we stand tall.....with all the evidence. The patriots have made the right call....no war for Cheney.no war for oil.no client stateshonesty *is* the best policy.

quote: Lotharr; sigh, just about shame on you for responding in kind.

That takes on the most significance when you realize some are more equal than others.

They started it!

Yeah and I though it was too complicated for conservatives....

quote: Bush mostly I would think. The rest are just going along with it for political expediency and because he's the prez. Even Colin finally got on board I don't know...the problem is the guy comes off as lacking a certain....er....brain? Really, the people I've talked to have the impression he isn't driving this chuck wagon. quote: It's getting there Mainstream journalism is compromised. Bottom line. They are minimally effective at providing content or investigative work. They are overwhelmingly effective at framing debates and in turn generating policy. Today the media is owned by a small number of companies and are driven by the bottom line. Media is not a normal business it has a special duty to the democratic process. If you want good info use those sources sparingly. quote: A belligerent Superpower That's the key. People are starting to see the clear disconnect between the will of the people and the government. In the countries that support Bush it's only the government, not the majority of the people. Our polls are different but I haven't reviewed the methodology of the poll takers. If you poll a thousand upper middle class people who have no children in danger the results are usually very different from those who may be drafted or have kids in the service. How the question is asked is very important also. Most of the support is for a vague attack. You start talking casualties and those numbers go down. Anyway, I dont see it as anti-American I see it as anti-Bush. quote: That's why I wouldn't vote for so long. Choosing the lesser of two evils is no choice at all. Broken election I can agree with but it's over and we got what we got Personally I'm outraged. If you critically look at the election process it's a sick and twisted affair that has very little to do with offering choice. This country is denied a vibrant and engaging politics for the gain of a limited amount of people.that is an outrage as well. People do not vote and for good reason. Third parties are shut out by the two parties who cannot even capture more than half of the electorate for the highest office in the country. He who makes the rules...rules. People are fed up and should be. This situation is criminal.but slowly changing. quote: Sure be careful about it, plan for replacement where possible and recycling where not, but let's not go crazy Environmental issues are interesting. Having industry that pollutes is basically an inefficient operation. There is a cost for destroying the environment in human terms and later in capitol for cleaning up. Plus if the third world is to industrialize it needs to be in a nontoxic way. REAL scientists understand that the biosphere can only take so much abuse. It is an inefficient operation transferring cost back onto the local communities...it is irresponsible and immoral....and fiscally unsound. quote: I have also thought the Bush administration wouldn't let looose the so called evidence for two reasons. The first not to tip Saddam off of course but the second was that if we do go in and find something really big we can point to it and say "Told ya so". The administration went into this whole damn thing demanding unfettered access. They got it and now they can really use it. They don't want to. There is more to this than the rhetoric. People do not trust this administration because of the history and the secrecy. I don't think they're wrong. quote: When do you (the gov't) decide that the loud minority is more correct than the willing majority? Good question. We'll see how this plays out but it's easy to sit at home and say go get em'. It takes a lot more to get out in the cold and make your voice heard. quote: I bet it don't change much You could be right....dunno. quote: As always my opinions only Not illegal yet.

quote: Ummm, now you've got me confused. That speech was attributed to Sen Byrd no? I know what he was trying to say. He was saying only the editors had the guts to question the call for war and most of the senate did not. Where does Bush come into this? quote: Unless you're on the other side and consider the US the worst. Most of the antiwar folks point the finger directly at Bush and his administration. I think the way the media throws around "anti-American sentiment" is a distortion...unless your talkin the Parisians.....however they don't like many people anyway....I hope you make that distinction.Bush is not representative of the American will..he is the result of a broken election based on the lesser of two evils..truly a depressing expression of current American politics and a deeply troubled democratic process. I don't agree the discussion on war has come close to what is acceptable....but that's a result of a lethargic and cowed media. Theres a ton of dissent out there....but it isn't given any serious attention....for reasons I find more disturbing than the potential for war. The government is (mostly) a collection of special and corporate interest. They do whats good for business first (top 5%), themselves second (top 5%), and "the people" last.when it doesn't conflict with the first two. An attack is at 60% but like you said, from there it gets really conflicted....I say that drops significantly in a week...and more from there....unless we go to rio red and run out of duct tape....

Keep in mind dubya is not America....he wasn't even elected.

Let it not be said that all of the corporate leadership in congress was silent. There are some rebels who havenÔÇÖt accepted the green washed agenda. http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7276

quote: Its so much better to make up the truth than actually know it. For rightwing "truth" I refer you to the above comments on the relative nature of substance. quote: Hey but when did a liberal actually care about facts That's right....trees really do cause pollution....isn't that so Mr. Regan quote: We gave up the practice of carpet bombing cities in WW2 Yeah we switched to "shock and awe"...it is a subtle change.... quote: Gee, so all I had to do was agree with right wing reactionary neanderthal points of view and I would get smarter Defiantly not...but you would get serious air time quote: carpet bombing brown people Some people react poorly to realizing the majority of the electorate will soon be dominated by non-WASP undesirable types....poor repulicant's.... Anyway, at least a clear message has been sent that aggressive military action for obvious material gain will be met with real resistance and that NATO is not a total puppet.

That and many other things...I'll admit it doesn't have the flashy packaging of Oliver North and the Fox family....but what it lacks in flash it makes up for with substance.

If anyone is interested here is a brief look at why American journalism in Iraq should be considered negligent going on criminal. Advance to 8:37. http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?fi...spin20030207.rm

Heh heh...you don't know how true that last part is

The idea of taking care of veterans is an externality...probably no tax break in it. You know how I feel. I've soldiered with some of the best people I've ever known. Make it tax deductible and maybe it would make sense for them.

quote: but Jag cant be blamed, hes just believes so strongly in America (and nothings wrong with that) he sometimes doesnt see the things as others see (or what he calls liberals) Well for him if an argument or belief doesn't meet certain patriotic parameters then your talking commie (insert many other ideas here). And that to me is un-American going on fascist...but hey when times get tough (for the status quo) the government (with business partners) will use its power to destroy dissent in *acceptable* un-constitutional way to protect "democracy". It's a hypocrisy that I find in a lot of so called patriots. Fault is something else. This country spends over a trillion dollars on propaganda and it is very good at what it does....because we are the best right? Even if we can't really point at anything substantial besides a bunch of rich people and a military that solves all arguments. quote: my problem with him is he blows off everyones views if they differ from his. but i do respect what he has to say, he is an intelligent man Well that's what *true* Americans have to do in tough times....or all the time or whatever. I agree that he is very knowledgeable in many respects and at the same time lacking substantially in other areas. So am I...and so it goes. Can anyone believe it....millions around the world united in peace. "I'm proud to be here with these great American's...these patriots of peace here in NYC." Martian Sheen (sp?) also know as "the good president" And the war hasn't even started....ahhh...the masses in their ignorance

Declaration of Hegemony Bringing our country up to date http://www.democracymeansyou.com/satire/declaration.htm

Lots of stuff here.... It's time for NATO to kick out the U.S. They don't need the liability. quote: You actually think that Bush is in this for the oil? I just cannot believe it, it is just unreal to me that people think like this. If you had any working knowledge of neocon philosophy, the personal economic history of the administration, or the obscenely corrupt and/or nepotistic appointments of federal positions you would change your mind. I bet you know the truth, but like most it would ultimately jeopardize your standard of living to acknowledge it....at the very least stop with all the Constitution thumping...even Hamilton and Smith would have loaded the muskets a long time ago. We do want the same thing. However, you refuse to admit or understand the nature of corporate infiltration on the democratic process. You call the Constitution dead while supporting the radical interpretations that have "enthroned" corporate preeminence on matters of self and state. You further reject the notion that CONGRESS is to declare war...not pass the buck to the executive. This is just of the top of my head. You need to switch your party to straight Republican. Your notions of taking what (you think) is good while ignoring the bad, makes you just as hypocritical as the current administration and the corporate media propaganda on the nature of freedom and liberty. Freedom is NOT being allowed to grow up in a ghetto, go to jail, get shot by the police, or end up on drugs (thatÔÇÖs hispanic, white, or black). Liberty is NOT being monitored by your government or having your vote competing against the devastating resources of anational corporations. At least Soviet bureaucracy could claim to be working for a country. Yeah we want the same thing but I deal with the reality of the present and respect and learn from the past....all of the past...not just the nice parts. quote: I was not intending to sate that I agree with one, or both of these statements. Got it. quote: From the anthropology classes I have taken, this is most definitely not true. Even in primitive societies, there are conflicts. I wasn't claiming a utopia. I was pointing out the relative egalitarian and communal peace that is believed to have existed during the start of human society. Gross stratification didn't develop until after horticulture developments had allowed for an abundance of resources and a privileged class. The social scientists I have talked to acknowledge this idea as true and call as a reference the majority of isolated people who still live in this type of environment today like: Kaska Indians, Pygmies and Bushmen of Africa, Aborigines, and the Semai. So while Jag may have Hobbes I'll take Rousseau (except for his stance on women....Jag can have that if he wants)...he wants Hamilton I'll take Paine. quote: Excuse my ignorance in this matter if i am wrong. Me too. quote: I get concerned when people try to turn the government into a public charity. I get concerned when I pierce the finely crafted veneer of a sterilized media to find a sea of wage slaves and workers who have built, and now sustain, this nation being denied their fair share, and the political means of competing for it. I get angry when my government is turned into a charity for pompous trust fund babies vis-├á-vis corporate welfare and tax breaks. These people who have known every economic advantage and the security it providesÔǪ..leasing our government, owning our media, and terrorizing the dispossessed through policy and propaganda. Anyway if these issues are of further concern we should find a better thread. As for this thread, NATO should give us the boot until we can work and play nice with others. Just one opinionÔǪitÔÇÖs not illegal yet.

quote: So you have some people saying all corporations are evil The institution reminds me of something Soviet. Without countervailing force the greed runs rampant and the greater good is not served. Unless you are a Thomas Friedman believer and in that case you probably make more then 100,000 a year or want to, false consciousness is an amazing thing. quote: So, as people we stay angry, and we are selfish. Even if I don`t always realize it, or don`t want to realize it, me sitting ere typing away at my computer, while I do term it progress, has also been the cause of a lot of suffering. As to the nature of man, anthropologists agree that hunters and gathers lived in peaceful and egalitarian societies. I don't buy the lie that man is selfish and this is actually a good thing....I know the counter intuitive notions of truth are appealing for people but it is only a belief and a spurious one in my opinion. quote: Oh yeah, and by the way, I was also saddened that this post had to develop into a series of insults flung between individuals I don't respond well to aggressive and ridiculous statements. If I'm not provoked I don't reciprocate. I will say I can get emotional but I don't aim at any one person....unless of course I'm singled out. I meet the standards demonstrated. [ 02-11-2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Yeah the funny part is if this had been in any way about gun rights Jag would be screaming. No this is just our civil liberties....and we all know our Reps would take their time and serve the good in a time of war. Alarmist = Patriot I think that's better than the administrations definition of: Patriot = Criminal Besides so far what Scott Ritter said has been true. [ 02-11-2003, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]