Lotharr

The walls come out.ladders come out faster. The people who build the walls are well paid....the people who build the ladder love the climb, hate the wall, or hate the pay.... I have Norton protection...seems like every day I'm attacked...virtual track was fun the first time.

Now now darling dont go and get all moral on me...Id hate to think you actually have a line to draw somewhere....even if it is in a less creative place.

Me too. I love that 66% of 40% that give a crap about anything. Honestly...I could care less. The fact is voter participation is in decline. When millionaire democrats try to sound off with anything resembling class dissatisfaction, the legions of now upper income journalists should, and do, take aim and get their kills. I think Bush is the best thing since sliced cheese and the Democrats should go home to their estates and shut the hell up. What you present are not facts. Misrepresentation and hopeful speculation defines media. You can believe whatever you want but when the truth comes out it usually hurts. The funny thing is I was just listening to a African American R senator (I really should know his name) define what the Republican party needs to do to be successful in the future.it wasnt pretty.they will have to cater to ethnic groups most disenfranchised by their policies.bye bye suckaa take the democrats with you.. Anyway, I missed you man..did you read the book by Robert Coren that talks about a man named Boyd who got Stormin Normins plans thrown out in favor of maneuver warfare used in Gulf I yet?

HA!

quote: When you finally realize that that is the ONLY choice without being a tryant or destroy the nation, then we will know that you have finally grown up and taken responsibility for yourself Jag you live in a surreal fantasy world overflowing with opportunity and justice.but that reality is reserved for only those who can afford it. We have new and improved tyrants that are bent on controlling the conditions of our democratic process. The truth of this reality is all around us you only have to look. quote: When you realize that the only person that can actually help you is you, then you will have made progress. Until then, you will continue to be frustrated, angry, and keep telling the government to steal from the rest of us to make your poor bleeding heart feel better. People can help each other utilizing a variety of methods. People can steal from each other and use the same methods. The notion of theft I am currently angry with is the industrial political alliance that believes success is only for the upper twenty percent. I feel that owning the democratic process, raising campaigning costs to the level of the absurd, and pretending this is some how legitimate or American is a totalitarian distortion and fully tyrannical in nature. You consider yourself a constitutionalist without recognizing the nature of tyranny, understanding history, or having any consideration to notions of change. This of course means that you are, in your thinking, the one farthest from the ideals of the people who fought a revolution with the rights of people and ideas of economic justice in the front of their minds. When you grow up and realize that two centuries of change will bring new challenges perhaps you will be able to focus your good intentions upon the real threats to liberty and personal freedom that are slowly dismantling the document you claim to cherish. quote: Socialism doesn't work, that's self evident if you're paying attention By work you mean exist and by attentention you mean history? The nature of capitalism is always changing does that mean it isn't working? I haven't even really started studying history much but I know there is a bit more to "not working" than your oversimplified statement would have one believe. quote: Jaguar brings up all the problems socialism causes. And what do you do? I don't know, but I don't recall ever seeing you respond. What can I say? His responses are propaganda. The issues are complex and I am still learning about them. I think that socialism is just and capitalism is effective at generating immediate results. In the long run will that be enough? I don't think so. The fact is that after 1980 with free market dominance, third world growth has stalled. All around the world today people are trying to resist the sacking of their countries by free market profiteers. Here in America the rich are growing richer and the jobs are moving overseas. Our military has dominated industrial planning resulting in our core capital goods infrastructure being shot to hell. Heath care costs soar and our noble CEO's are falling over themselves to become super rich but just end up damaging our economy. What can I say? Free market capitalism is here....but will it stay? I don't think so. It would seem that this relatively new system is not off to a good start. quote: So my question for you, my challenge if you will, is to suggest something that would work. Not that would be nice if it did work, not that is theoretically possible, but something that would actually work. How do you define work? I believe that "actually working" depends on who you ask. For a "working" system where a small group profits and a vastly larger group is impoverished read the UN development report and exult the free market. I would further suggest that with colonialism certain areas have gained wealth and prospered at the expense of others. This is capitalism and while it works for some it sure doesn't for others. So darling you want to know what we do. We organize, educate, and take the power back of course.

quote: i foolishly was a democrat Me too. Then I realized they are the more destructive and underhanded partner of corporate dominance and economic injustice. It shouldn't come as any surprise that almost every member of congress is a millionaire. quote: what im getting at is everyone makes choices in life, and those choices govern how your life turns out So all those workers who have had there jobs outsourced and can no longer find work, made that choice. The thousands of workers who have had their future destroyed by profiteering executives made that choice as well. There are reasons why people can bust their butts their whole life and come away with squat. It is called stratification in conjunction with the real fact of finite market opportunity, resting solidly upon an opportunity base enhanced or narrowed by the accident of birth. It is hard to come to terms with a system that exists to promote a small group of haves at the expense of the larger group of have-nots.and for good reason. It would betray a fundamental moral deficiency in the America some have come to believe is the pinnacle of human egalitarian accomplishment and the true source of light in a dark world. However, the only way to endorse this position is to deny morality (as some can do with a system of logic that, like all beliefs, is at some point based on faith alone) or to demonize the disposed. The best way to do this is by generating, promoting, and echoing sentiments on the false nature of choice and (in my opinion) forcing an unrealistic shift of responsibility from those who control, profit, and engineer a system to those who have to survive in it. Another good way to believe this is to say that human social and economic development is at an end.and this belief is certainly not a strong position given the nature of history. So you can say simply that choice and responsibility is in the hands of the individual and walk away.but not me.

quote: The very structure of the AP -- the impersonal bureaucracy through which this huge volume of information is filtered -- encourages "desk reporting" from foreign correspondents Bureaucracy worked for Soviet elites for quite some time and currently serves free market elites very nicely. Having media dedicated to profit, sensationalism, and fell good BS if perfectly suited for maintaining a society taught to value the same. It's not manipulation, its content engineering.....it's not biased, its the information market...and we all know markets regulate themselves in everyones best interest....always. Besideshow does having an informed citizenry truly benefit a society anyway? We really should just stick with practicing democracy in the industry constructed consumer context. Imagine.we could all end up walking around wearing tin foil beanies made in Singapore believing in evil things like universal health care and some weird notion of social and economic justice.(shudders violently).that you CNN!

quote: From now on I am just going to ignore your posts, they are laden with BS, propaganda, and no critical thinking at all. Somehow I doubt that.

quote: We will say 20 people out of 100 are what you call the poor. of that 20, in 5 years, 18 of them will have moved into a higher bracket. 2 of those 20 will still be there. at the next census, 18 of those 20 will be new to that income bracket, either from bad choices and moving down, or from new workers making their way up. YouÔÇÖre just wrong. Income does not facility vertical mobility, wealth does. So unless youÔÇÖre in the upper 40% you can expect to little to no wealth generation. You always seem to want more time...you always seem to have facts that are inaccurate or do not address fundamental issues. One day you may realize that there are just not enough jobs for everyone and that the majority of poor people are guiltily of nothing save the accident of birth. Your story of economic salvation is not grounded history or current realities. Technology is voiding more jobs than it is creating. Capital migration (jobs) is moving over seas to remain competitive. That's blue collar and white collar....what is cheaper? Paying for a computer scientist to come live in America or just take the jobs to them? The Republicans will continue to pass laws that funnel wealth back into the hands of the wealthy and keep labor disorganized. Polarize wealth, eviscerate the middle class, and generally destabilize society....they can't help it, that's the nature of fat cat politics. When the majority of people who are used to being consumers fall off the tread mill they will take a very hard look at what they believe and who is telling them to believe it.... Well anyway it should be interesting.

Ahhh yes the biased left wing who uses facts from the Census Bureau Well write your republican reps and ask them to hide facts.it sure wont be a revolutionary idea in those rankswho knowsthey might even tell you that theyve bent reality more then you know Heh heh....when reason fails..turn to nonsense...hey if it works.

quote: Israel WILL destroy them, I refuse to believe that Jews will become Nazis....but maybe you can convice them.... quote: terrorists within their midst So your the freedom fighter eh?

You'll forgive me if I'm not impressed by a biased case study and a rant from a right wing mouthpiece....so sorry.

Theyve been choking for years. quote: Until those things happen there cannot be and will not peace until one or the other is destroyed. What is wrong with you? Where in history are people totally destroyed? And where and when is that acceptable? What is wrong with you? When a people believe that the total destruction of another is a form of justice or somehow acceptable, we have to ask who defines justice and what gives them the right to decide that answer. If that answer is economic advantage or political expedience those making that determination have precisely defined inhumanityany rational person would still be lost for an answer to this brutal solution abhorred by any God of peace under any name. What prayers would a God answer? Those of the impoverished and oppressedor those who claim piety while turning a blind eye to the suffering of billions?

quote: I am a constitutionalist and a patriot. ? quote: THe fact of the matter is that will work without a free market economy. The federal government powers are enumerated in the constitution, and that is one document that I believe in, but YOUR ideas have perverted the government into something it was neve supposed to be. Not at all....your failure to deal with new threats to self and state sovernty have left you scrambling for a past that connot exist in the face of present corporate realitites that suvert evrythying you claim to believe in. quote: Regulating business and making things fair destroy the very business and good wage jobs that you want to create. What do you think the founders were trying to accomplish?!!? They wanted to bring a sense of "fair" into the peoples lives. The anational corporations are destroying all kinds of American jobs in the name of a profit that does not relate to us. quote: Whereas my way, deregulating and detaxing business will create those good wage jobs and opportunities for the poor and regular people that you claim to care about so much. No it won't. Over the last twenty years we have seen unfettered business move over seas and further stratify our country. They are destroying the American middle class while stalling the development of third world nations since 1980. Your idea's would allow them to pay anyone five cents an hour while hoarding obscene amounts of wealth and destroying the environment. quote: Your way, government control over everything My way people retake their lives. Government is the vehicle to achieve that goal...unless you are a closet anarchist.... quote: My way allows those business's to grow, to create mor good wage jobs and to create a healthy economy where NO ONE IS LEFT BEHIND. Yup...go over seas with jobs and provide a good wage for those already with more money than god.some patriot.

quote: The terrorists are the "enemy". The Israeli people are NOT the enemy Neither are the Palestinian people who's rights are being violated under the fourth Geneva convention, with Israel in violation of UN resolution 446, 452, and 465. Thinking of this situation in deeper terms in difficult is it not? Let's just watch Fox to find out the "truth".

heh heh.... As of....about now.... Richest 20% of families 84% of wealth 47.2% of income Second 20% 11% of wealth 15.6% of income Third 20% 5% of wealth 15.6% of income Fourth 20% 1% of wealth 9.9% of income Fifth 20% (also known as those unmotivated scum who refuse to work ) >1% of wealth 4.3% of income From 1980 to 2000 mean income levels adjusted for inflation. +/- 1000 Top 20% 100,000 to 140,890 + 48.2% Second 20% 60,000 to 71,200 +21.9% Third 20% 41,500 to 46,200 +14.7% Fourth 20% 29,000 to 31,500 +9.7% Last 20% 11,000 to 11,300 +2.6% (Data from US census Bureau) Oh yes it is such a penalty to be rich...because we all know there are enough jobs to go around that pay 200,000 a year...er...wait... People just don't REALIZE how HARD it is to thrive in the "free market" with 84% of the national wealth...buying politicians....owning the democratic process has never been so dreadfully boring darling...really.... [ 12-16-2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Obviously he isn't a patriot.... patriots know the secret handshake...praise Allah...er...Jesus...and walk lock step with the happy face into the glorious new world order that sells out its own citizens to be "globally competitive" (translation: money continues to flow to wealthy and jobs continue to flow overseas)....yep scumbag got what he deserved...hey freedom costs and if you can't afford it thats your problem... Get over it Jaguar your patriotism is based on beliefs generated by those who could give a damn about your liberty or freedom..sorry the truth hurtswhen your jobs gets outsourced I know youd rather starve than take a hand out in the land of plenty.because we all agree that one can always get a jobalways.

quote: If we'd ignore saddam what could happen He should not be ignored. However, he should not be attacked for trying to achieve an American sponsored balance with Israel. If he ever got around to making a nuke why would he give it to people that may use it on him or lose it? He is a secular leader and loathed by the fundamentalist sects in the Muslim world. It does not benefit him in any way to give out his weapons. The CIA recommended containment because they understand the situation. It is not our fault that big oil owns the White House. International law works when organizations believe that it is needed and work for it. This administration and other interests do not believe in this ideal because it is not profitable to wage peace. In fact it is much easer to draw down when youÔÇÖre the only one with a gun. Remember that resolution 1441 states that the UN has the final say what is material breach. If America works outside of the law and violates the founding charter of the UN, people will begin to view America as the rogue nation.

quote: Also, we are giving over 20 billion dollars a year and ALL of our expertise to Russia to get their nuclear weapons stockpiles secured and dismantled, but you don't wish to talk about that do you? http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/acda/aboutacd/fy20.htm 40 mil is what is authorized for the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency. If you can show me other figures then have at it.if not try to shoot for inaccuracies of less then a factor of 500. quote: Sorry to sound so condescending, but I just can't help it. You are so deadset in your little naive worldview, and I am beginning to think that it is the only way to shake you up a little bit so you will think. Put you on the defensive a little bit so that you will study a little more thoroughly before you try and take me on. It is the way you are. Your posts signify that you are insecure with your beliefs and have only distain for opinions that dissent from your own. It doesn't bother me. What you need to wake up too is we are not in the eightieth century and current free market ideologies are disseminated by people on the payroll who dominate mass media outlets. The American political process has been hijacked by wealth and corporations play an increasingly subversive and unconstitutional roll over government and issues of self governance.your patriotism has been incorporated and youre left with a document being dismantled by the party you support. You live in a past that is vastly different from the present. I have the small view? Dust yourself off and check the calendar. I have finals this week and next so I'll be in and out.

quote: If the Federal and state governments had left corporate profits ALONE and just taxed the income of the workers, then those companies would still be where they started When workers cannot properly organize into DEMOCRATIC bodies and have a hand in deciding company policy they are being taxed without representation. They are being taxed by government and the company. The government because that money goes back into corporate coffers and by the company because CEO's effect a 400:1 wage imbalance because they are beholden to none but themselves and their peers robbing the workers of their share in the prosperity THEY worked for. No taxation without representation! [ 12-06-2002, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Those companies were created to serve socity not pick its bones, take a crap, and fly away....Jefferson whould smack you in the head. Tax?!?! What are you talking about?!?! So if we tax 30 billion (not even) then give it right back we are ripping THEM off? What on earth are you talking about?

quote: ROFLMAO!! That is what war is all about, you destroy and break things and kill people until the will to resist is gone. THAT IS WAR, get over it. It sure worked after WWI...er... And after Vietnam....wait a minute.... And our recent romp through Afganistan....oops...that country is back to growing heroin and war lords.... And Iraq....once we get in there and effect regime change all our problems will magically go away.... Do you follow history? quote: but I dont want to hear or see a crazy dictator blowing up his near by countries That's why Isreal has nukes. That's why we have nukes....Saddam is an ego driven self serving CEO type...we can trust him...er...well Rummy sure did. Anyway of real concern is the thousands of weapons that litter the Russian step....but we don't talk much about them....

Look what it got them... How about we get people jobs and good wages? I know I don't know everything...unlike some. I'll get over myself if you drop the part time patriot front while being a free market fanatic.

Good call...that's why local governments are creating loop holes the size of Texas in their contracts. The company must shift capital when a better deal comes along! Erno it's because they won't come into town without the loop holes....but wait!?!?! That's why corporations are seeking to become anational. Moving HQ's and capital out of the country.where you just can't put a price tag on no tax and no regulation.... It's a big mystery why poverty has continued and median wages have stagnated over the last decade of boom

Heh...you know what a median income level is? It's the thing that has stagnated since Regan. You know what Ave income is? That the thing that has grown with the wealth of the super rich. Yes, you have demonstrated rather effectively that both camps don't give a damn about regular Americans....but we all know who put them in office and we further realize why people have stopped voting. You can play your little no fault game all you want but it is clear who American political leadership is working for. I think it will be very interesting to see what happens as they keep covering each other and continue their transparent game of pass the buck. You can't fool all the people all the time.