Raven

quote: Indiana Jones and the missing bottle of viagra "Crap! I think I left it in Cairo!" Yes... the quest to... er... revitalize the... um... um... the staff of kings. Yes! There we go! Indiana Jones and the quest to revitalize the staff of kings... Gods, isnÔÇÖt that bad

Um 56k is hardly broadband.

This should be good.

quote: I don't know what you mean by "novel", but you should know that (indian) rupees are worth 32 times less than a canadian dollars. I didnÔÇÖt know that, thanks. What I mean by novel is that I have never had a rupee before and it would be interesting. quote: Tell me. Do you hate Canada? You're giving me more and more this impression to me. Nothing of the type, I'm just joking with you. If I hated Canada (which would be ridiculous, by the way, there isnÔÇÖt anything worth hating in Canada, or most anywhere else for that matter) you wouldnÔÇÖt have to ask.

quote: That article is proof that socialists need to be shot. WeÔÇÖve had that proof for along time. A very long time. quote: Actually, that was in the plan, they government paid 500cnd off a new computer, which I used to pay for one of my computers. On one side I have to wonder what kind of computer you could get for 500 Canadian dollars, on the other it seams like a lot to be handing out en mass. I would rather have 500 rupees then 500 Canadian, at least rupees would be novel. [ 06-02-2002, 04:09: Message edited by: Dragon Lady ]

I will have to try that, thanks. As for my race and cast, itÔÇÖs Gammulan Military

Right, so I finally got around to getting fleet C&C (surpassingly easy when I put my mind too it) and so I have a whole bunch of ships that seems to behave like sun addled lemmings. So, what are they good for (besides cannon fodder when taking starstations, and I kind of feel bad about sending ships in for the sole purpose of drawing enemy fire while I get my cloak engaged)? Also, what are some good objectives to go fore (besides taking GalCom HQ, which I'm saving for later )? Is it possable to take planets or other targets, or am I stuck with a long campaign of pounding station after station into dust?

quote: yeah but trample and flanking came out in 6th edition I believe. This was a 4th edition deck. I think your right about flanking (it sure wasnÔÇÖt around when I got my first ice age starter deck) but trample has been around for a while, paladia moors is a pretty old card.

quote: No it is still there but mainstream media doesnÔÇÖt focus on it. And even legal immigrants are exploited. Even natural citizens are. Some does not do the numbers justice I think.This isnÔÇÖt really my area of expertise and I have little knowledge of it so I will take you word. That said, such actions are illegal and not condoned by the system. Of course a definition of exploited might be nice as well. quote: That is your right but I think it is horribly twisted. Wonderfully twisted would be a little more accurate quote: Yes it is subjective. I like to focus on those that have a positive moral platform and achieve an amazing amount of change. Like you, I tend to focus on thinkers and leaders with whom I agree. quote: For some reason these people get gunned down for their greatness. True, but thatÔÇÖs the way it goes. quote: Please show me where power hungry organizations have not imploded. Well, that is what usually happens isnÔÇÖt it, problem kind of takes care of itself, thus itÔÇÖs not all that dreadful. quote: Himmmm...you like the survival of the scummiest so much.....without the morality you claim has no value (other than to control the masses) then how could you not endorse a positive morality for a economic system and a government? The reason I donÔÇÖt like racism is, quite frankly, because itÔÇÖs stupid to hate people over something as trivial as race, or sexual orientation for that matter. I could care less about such things and people who get a riled up about it come across as stupid. As for sexism, why should anyone consider half the population somehow incapable or incompetent simply because of gender, it doesnÔÇÖt make sense. And before you come after me about considering other people (read: the poor) incapable or incompetent, at least there is a reason to believe it is true. By the way, did you know that calling it ÔÇ£survival of the scummiestÔÇØ is a question begging euphemism and thus a logical fallacy? quote: Civil rights and womanÔÇÖs suffrage were achieved by having the moral consent of the populous. You can't just have one and not go all the way. Moral people don't usually stop there. The basis for these arguments is that every life has value and input so how can you just stop there? Civil rights a something a little different and for the most part I couldnÔÇÖt give a ratÔÇÖs ass. Oh, donÔÇÖt get me wrong, trying to treat minority groups fairly is fine with me but, with the exception of womenÔÇÖs rights, I really donÔÇÖt care. Even as far as womenÔÇÖs rights go I donÔÇÖt think anything more needs to be done, all of the affirmative action and the likes is just as dumb as the original problem. quote: Then I suppose a new definition of success is in order. I'm talking about financial success here, I probably should have mentioned that, my apologies. quote: Scary because you fear the unknown? This would support people's difficulty with change. And serve to make you sound like one of the superstitious masses. Or does your logic fail you on matters of faith? The reason I find it scary is because I donÔÇÖt like the idea of being judged and ultimately punished for my actions, a theme that seams rather recurring in most religions. But that came later in my life, I rejected religion from an early age as being illogical. quote: My religious experiences as a child cut into to melting army men time and I have been bitter ever since. ThatÔÇÖs shame, burning and melting things is important for a child. I certainly know I spent countless hours frying bugs with a large magnifying glass when I was little. quote: So what happens when people have so much history to learn from that past ways of living become obsolete.... Not a whole lot, really, people tend not to learn from history. ItÔÇÖs not like it would happen to them after all quote: The best thing about the two-party system is that it guarantees that one candidate will win a majority of the vote. Remember Ross Perot? His entry into the 1992 campaign resulted in Bill Clinton winning the presidency with only 40% of the vote. Clinton was a plurality president, not a majority president. Both Gore and Bush got more votes than Clinton did. That is what a three-party system will do. I donÔÇÖt want to go into this here, but plurality is good. Trust me on this. [ 06-01-2002, 03:22: Message edited by: Dragon Lady ]

I captured Genesis station as a Gammulan commander and when I went to trade some goods there (right after I docked to capture it) the vicious bastards told me I had illegal cargo (which I did) and they CONFISCATED it. I mean, talk about backwards, I capture there station and they confiscate my cargo.

quote: In the long run, neither system will work. In the long run nothing works, we all die, and it doesnÔÇÖt matter. quote: BECAUSE of human nature, the practice of capitalism and the pursuit of profit causes us to rationalize dishonest (even evil) behavior- as long as they result in profit for ourselves. Actually, we prefer the term ÔÇ£great funÔÇØ to evil and dishonest. quote: In the end, our children learn from this example, morals are thrown away (seeing more talk of morals being a bad thing) and society degrades as the middle class disappears and the elite rich leech the lifeblood of the poverty stricken populace who still will do ANYTHING for money. Good for the kids, they will be better for it. As for the rest, a bit of an exaggeration to say the least. quote: I work for a great company, but you apparently have to be pretty and able to lie at the drop of a hat to get ahead. Nothing new about this with capitalism, good looks and a quick tong have always been useful to say the least. quote: Also, if I were part of any minority group, my chances for promotion would increase dramatically even if I had no degree. That is pretty dumb, but unfortunately very true. People trying to solve the problems of our society seem to be delightfully good at making new ones. quote: I guess the only thing holding me back is my dedication to giving the customer what they deserve, and my honesty. ThatÔÇÖs your choice, and I respect it, but how can you expect someone to succeed unless theyÔÇÖre willing to throw everything else out the window to do so. quote: Those used to be the qualities that got you ahead..... When was this? quote: Master Yoda on beer: "Beer is the path to the darkside. Beer leads to drunkenness, drunkenness leads to beer goggles, beer goggles leads to dirty women. Once you get a dirty woman in your jock, forever will she dominate your destiny. Besides......Whiskey is the true Jedi drink." LMAO ThatÔÇÖs too good, really, where do you get this stuff?

quote: bah, 1/1 expendable critters block those 16/8 critters just fine ThatÔÇÖs why paladia moors has trample quote: Then Mr. Royal Assassin sticks a knife in the back of their craniums. TAP AT YOUR OWN RISK I like my rods of ruin (expensive, but they do the trick, tap and pay 4 to deal 1 damage to any target).

quote: heh heh....people will make the best of what they got....durability of my people.... Like big rats, you just cant seem to get rid of them Seriously though, your right, people are tough, they will survive just fine. Maybe a hundred years ago you could complain about capitalism ruining peoples lives, but (with the exception of some illegal aliens) that kind of thing simply doesnt happen any more. quote: Good lord....may the powers that be have mercy even if you don't. I'm not THAT heartless, come on. quote: No but they tend to have some clarity of thought that other do not posses.... Perhaps, but Ive found that philosophers and great thinkers tend to go every which way with there opinions. They are great at thinking, sure, Ill give them that, but that doesnt mean that they are right in said thinking. quote: You still discount the natural good side in people...when the need is there it is amazing what people can do and who they choose to represent them. I dont discount the good nature of most people, I think I went over that with you earlier, but I do discount any spurious ability to make themselves known to the mob. quote: Your kinda a martyr in your own right....I see you falling on a sword of gold.... Then its a good thing my breastplate is steel quote: Put them in the arena....two losers enter one loser leaves.... Massive staged battles, eliminate dozens at a time. Good fertilizer too. quote: Well that's the problem with your belief....most people can't tell the difference and power becomes an end. Thats not as dreadful as you might think. quote: Yes the nazi's were dumb but their leader was not. I was more referring to the whole super race kill the Jews nonsense. If you cant tell, I dont support racism (or sexism for that matter) in any way shape or form. I despise everyone equally as it were quote: I looked it over and honestly I can't really say what a socialism is all about...I don't even have a rough outline other then maybe: much higher taxes that are distributed where needed to ensure a comfortable living standards of all citizens. This in turn is supposed to facilitate a good will feeling that fosters an environment of teamwork. Doesn't really sound bad to me....or course I'm not greedy and I don't require material positions to ascertain my worth or brag about a social position. You pretty much have it right, though often you get things like government controlled economy and the likes as well. I'm not really sure how socialism would look as a core economic model rather then as a leach off of capitalism, but it would probably end up similar in some ways to communism (which is a type of socialism). The main complain against it (at least within a capitalist setting) is that it results in stealing from those who have or make a lot of money (not just the rich either) and giving to those who dont. It also really hurts businesses and tends to discourage success. quote: And in no way does a child that comes from wealth generated by liars and a thieves mean they are entitled to more opportunities. however the system you sing your praises to promotes and advances just that type of individual. Its not fair, but it works, and it works well. quote: Well that is your personal opinion and in no way qualified to even enter the church. The last time I was in a church was when I was little and mom was going though a brief religious episode brought on by a natural phenomenon that she insisted was the hand of god. Others may be comforted by the though of a god and an afterlife, but I find the idea frankly appalling and a little scary. quote: I know youd rather be out back selling spray paint to your cohorts anyway so Im sure your not broken hearted. Now thats an idea quote: No greater love has a man than this. To lay down his life for his brothers...and sisters. The phrase blided by love comes to mind, wonder why. quote: You really want a bunch of people trying to eat their hand grenade Not exactly what I had in mind, but I like it anyway. Would give the people who do the Darwin Awards a LOT of work though. quote: Heh heh....do you throw the bones and read the future or something.... Its boneheads, not bones (everyone makes that mistake) and I dont throw them. Really its easy, you just look at what boneheads have in the past and its pretty much what they will do in the future. Predictability not prescience.

quote: I don't know. Seems we are getting as bad as usenet. No where close. There have been a few nasty things said, but this is out of reams of posts. It simply doesnÔÇÖt compare with usenet, your making it sound about a thousand times worse then it is. If anything, these threads have been surprisingly civil considering the topics. Oh, we could probably be a little less heated, but there is no insult flinging or such going on. quote: Why were the posts not deleted? Probably because there is nothing that really needs deleting, certainly nothing comes to mind.

quote: The Gammulan intelligence just receintly acquired this picture of Paul Resnig and his new girlfriend. It is rumored that they will get married within the month. ROTFLMAO That is just too much. quote: Is that thing, that monster that tries to eat skywalker in Star Wars?? Empire strikes back quote: that is, if you haven't turned BLIND after looking at the sun for a ENTIRE SECOND!! Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I dont think that Mercury has enough atmosphere to prevent decompression Explosive decompression.

Bah! ItÔÇÖs another bit of socialism trying to work its way into our economy. Once people get the idea they are ÔÇ£entitledÔÇØ to money they start coming up with more things that they are entitled to money fore. IÔÇÖd vomit if I didnÔÇÖt like this keyboard so much.

I got into magic with ice age, but I got most of my subsequent cards buy buying them individually or trading so I have quite a bit of earlier stuff. quote: I made it to be pure "infantry" cards Yes, well I made a dragon deck that was made up of (predictably) of dragons, drakes, wyverns, and wyrms, and let me tell you a paladia moors (sp?) with lance, living armor, firebreathing, and spirit link REALLY kicks ass.

quote: And by the way most citizens have the majority of their teeth and can write their name these days.... please don't deny the progression of your mob. I thought you wanted me to find something else to call them besides the mob quote: Recent history has seen a quantum leap in average education levels... Yep, because, among other things, capitalism and the progress it engenders. quote: Many a case has been lost when "irrefutable" proof (by some estimations) has been on hand. True, but not often. Things may come out as you think, but I will make the best prediction as I am able and hold with it so long as it seams accurate. quote: Too bad we have to factor in for all those worthless people out there. Theyre not totally worthless, after all more poor people you have more rich people can be supported. This isnt universally true, but it is a good general principal. quote: Competition is good...to a point. I am only saying that the true geniuses are the ones that lay the foundation that the engineers use to make a better blender... And they didn't do it for money the vast majority of the time. Corporate funding is nice too. quote: Why do you dismiss out of hand the ideas of some of the worlds great thinkers and leaders? Easily. Just because someone is a great thinker (dont get me started on that) or a good leader doesnt mean there the ultimate authority to be listened to at all costs. quote: Where does this arrogance come from I wonder? Like my general contempt for most of humanity, it is a natural trait that is honed with practice. quote: The true leaders are chosen by the masses and those leaders promote real change. Usually at the cost of their lives. Yea, and how do the masses learn who they are but through media, and that costs money. Maybe a few hundred years ago someone could rise to power without large sums of cash, but it just cant happen now. As far as loosing there lives, anyone willing to become a martyr is not the kind of leader I want to have anyway. quote: True the system should filter out the non-hackers like draft dodgers and criminals and politicians up for lease. Those are personal opinions. However corporate bought senators are garbage. They serve a purpose, but I agree that they should be actively eliminated. quote: You would. You see power as a tool that will build more power....what then. If all we are striving for is power why didn't we throw in with the nazis? Damn morals.... The nazis were dumb (not to mention socialist, at least in origins) and they failed, why would I want to imitate them. Power isnt an end, its a means, both to more power and to the frameworks for happiness. I know perfectly well that money cant buy happiness, but it can sure as hell help. quote: Why are you mixing up quotes? A technical error, bound to happen eventually with the way I place quotes. Pay it no mind, I will try to avoid such errors in the future. If you wish to reread those areas they are fixed. quote: What applies for anyone universally besides being qualified to die? Probably nothing, though I would have to think about it for a while. quote: But that is what you are advocating....not many people can turn a blind eye to the suffering of others uberwoman. Not at all, in no way does capitalism force everyone to an artificially created mean, that is more the realm of socialism then anything else. I'm not saying it is the ultimate goal of socialism, but some type of equalization is inherent in all types Ive ever heard of. As far as turning a blind eye to the suffering of others, its better then sacrificing myself on the altar of the masses. quote: And antipersonnel mines too.... LMAO Sell hand grenades as concessions to the spectators too. quote: Beautiful. Sorry to be so sarcastic but it is all I can do in the face of arogance.... Thank you, I will take that as a compliment. Anyway, its true, most people exist solely for the purpose of raising a few too the top. It has been true through out history and it will remain true for as long as we can call ourselves Homo Sapiens.

I never paid much attention to the numbers, what was 5th edition called?

quote: In todays large corporations, profit is the motive. ThatÔÇÖs pretty normal for corporations, and not just todayÔÇÖs. quote: They understand that anyone less than an executive or their top R&D guys can be replaced easily- usually with cheap foreign labor- and is unimportant. ThatÔÇÖs a bit of an exaggeration, there are a lot of technical jobs that cheap foreign laborers simply canÔÇÖt do. quote: You will always have a supervisor or manager (use any title you want) that you report to who will take credit for your hard work, find excuses to post low review scores and crappy raises to as many employees as possible- if they even let you have the raise they promised within the next year. Gods, and people call me cynical. Well, what can I say, if people fall for it then thatÔÇÖs there own problem. quote: I KNOW socialism doesn't work, but neither does capitalism. I donÔÇÖt know about that, capitalism has been working for the past few hundred years just fine. quote: I have seen this country detroy the family unit, teach us our parents are disposable and market products directly to children who don't understand what money is (and learn that money and things ARE happiness). Made parents disposable, how is this? As far as marketing to children, well if they donÔÇÖt understand what money is then itÔÇÖs there parents job to oversee them. And I wonÔÇÖt argue that money is happiness, itÔÇÖs not, but it does play an important roll in achieving happiness. quote: All the while, the elite rich and politicians (and those that aspire to be) make lying and cheating the most often rewarded skills in the US. Survival of the fittest, nothing more to be said. quote: Hell, look at Clinton- he made a mockery of our entire system when he was allowed to squirm around the sex scandal by denying that oral sex is 'sexual relastions'. Only in the US would a high-ranking government official receive that kind of crap over a sex scandal. It was blown so horrendously out of proportion that you actually think itÔÇÖs a big deal. I personally donÔÇÖt give a crap about ClintonÔÇÖs minor sexual indiscretions, those are his problem and that of his wife, and to think that he would be taken out of office over something like that is ridiculous. quote: We've been made so comfortable in life that we are afraid to go without that AC or TV, the video games and the internet. Good, go become a hermit, cave out a domicile from the trunk of a tree using your front teeth and hunt for food by throwing rocks. quote: The more technology we get, the worse society becomes. More greedy, more dishonest, more bloodthirsty. Right, so does that mean we should go back to the cave? Back to the trees perhaps? ThatÔÇÖs preposterous. quote: Most will do whatever it takes to make sure they get the leg up and you get the shaft Once again, survival of the fittest. I would hate to live in a country that didnÔÇÖt promote personal competence. quote: Capitalism doesn't work either. In the end, we will consume ourselves and each other in our lust for more and more of all this crap we don't NEED anyway. How do you support this? You go on about greed and lying politicians but you never provide any support or evidence. And now your saying capitalism is self destructive, a little proof would be nice. Actually, an alternative would be nice as well, but as you no doubt know destroying is easier then creating. quote: We know better, but screw it- as long as we're comfortable we'll let the next generation deal with it. Why sacrifice? This is capitalism!! Actually thatÔÇÖs human nature.

quote: Since everything is constantly changing I doubt any static equilibrium will ever be achieved. Your right, but at some point the average increase in government control will equal the average decrease. The exact level wont stay the same, but will remain in the same general area. quote: I do see the nature of business and social heath constantly struggling. Because our government is basically controlled by money those with the most money will try to make policy. One dollar one vote. These policy's are not in the best interest of people but of a wealthy few. Perhaps you find this to be a good policy.....I don't. Economic and political power has always gone hand in hand. If anything, the unwashed masses have too much control over how this country is run. quote: You say the verdict is in and the debate is over. No, the jury is still out, but the evidence speaks for itself. What we think of as socialism today has no chance, period. quote: Should we radically change anything as large as this overnight....no. Money is good at what it does. On this I agree. quote: Sounds like you think technology will fix all our problems.....when really it created a number of them....I hope it does. Technology has allowed our population to grow to a grotesque level, this is clearly bad for the environment, but with 1/5 of our current population I dont think we would have even a fraction of the environmental problems we face today. With too much population technology must be abused to provide for everyone, and thus is only the tool for ecological disaster, not the root cause. quote: however if certain companies want to post a profit so bad they act irresponsibly then we must acknowledge that as a problem and they should be crushed.not slapped on the wrist. Ok maybe not crushed but serious financial and administrative action should be taken. Appropriate action must be taken, I agree. Environmentalism is important and our planet should not be sacrificed for profit. On this you will find no argument from me. quote: Yes engineers out there want to reinvent the SUV many times over to make money....is this the kind of advancement your talking about? Because when I think on most real breakthroughs in science they were created by folks that were in it because that's what they loved to do. Breakthroughs are not the only kind of advances and the steady progress of engineers, whether reinventing the SUV or designing better building material, is important. Furthermore, science is one of the areas that responds well to competition. Might I point out the human genome project. Originally it was simply a project that the government was running, but at some point a private company (I forget the name) started there own independent effort and both groups completed the project well ahead of schedule. Now, I admit that part of this was a result in the increases in computer technology, but some of it was competition between the two groups. quote: Understanding politics is a full time job....but the current set up needs a hard looking over in my opinion. I cant say I like the two party system in the US myself as I have trouble deciding which party I loathe more and so I agree that some change is necessary, but probably not in the same direction you are thinking. quote: It would be help to have a practical understanding and real life relationship with those of whom you would make policy over. Looks like there is more the one person suffering from ivory tower syndrome..... Hardly, I simply dont come into contact with many farmers, ranchers, or janitors. quote: I would rather facilitate this growth. You would rather fear and oppress it...and make a buck. There is a difference between limiting the power of a group of people and oppressing them. Lets use the military as an example. Persons of low rank in the military have little or no power to determine what they do or where they go, period. We could call that oppression, but I prefer common sense. quote: Thats lazy and selfish.but you seem to endorse a system that allows for both. I have no problem with a bit of laziness so long as its not coming at my expense, and I never have and never will object to selfishness as you put it. Everyone is responsible to themselves first and foremost and I would say that it is foolish to act otherwise. quote: However the leaders that are chosen to represent the populous should be elected on their merits as leaders, not because they have the most money. Nice idea, but I dont see how you could convey someones merits as a leader to the masses. Anyway, money isnt the only requirement for getting elected to office. If Bill Gates ran for president he wouldnt stand a chance. quote: The acquisition of wealth should not be the primary motivating factor when working on domestic and international issues. It is often of high concern but not the only one. With domestic issues I agree, but acquisition of power (via wealth or whatever) should be the basis for foreign policy. quote: Not to make a buck but to do some good. I believe the whole appeal of socialism to the masses is that it provides them with more money, so only those who would loose out with socialism would be doing it without the incentive of making a buck. quote: I thought this was the underlying premise of Capitalism? Perhaps it is, but nothing works out that ideally and I would be worried if it did. quote: Nope but there exists (in my opinion) an underlying sense of fair play that most people work towards. True, but such a sense of fair play is neither universal nor universally applied. quote: An economy should provide jobs, promote growth, and build a base for people to lead a good life in. For the most part I agree, but that doesnt mean that everyone should be forced towards some artificial mean. quote: Competition is a good thing but do you ever see a football player pull out an Uzi to reach the end zone? Might make football worth watching if it happened now an again quote: Open your mind to the possibility that things can get better for more people.and people can do better for themselves.without hurting the way you live. Growth can be achieved without sacrificing portions of the population. For some to rise to the top others (usually a lot of others) must descend to the bottom. [ 05-31-2002, 08:45: Message edited by: Dragon Lady ]

I have a few thousand cards myself from a few years ago when I played that I would like to get rid of. DonÔÇÖt know what type 1 is though.

quote: I have also been taught not to spit in the air, as it lands in your face, so I can't be too harsh about the mother. ThatÔÇÖs a good policy if you ask me, but itÔÇÖs spit into the wind not the air. quote: Ok How many times did I contradict myself? Not at all, IÔÇÖm no expert on raising children and never will be, but everything you said seams right on. quote: Yeah cause you got it all figured out right Damn Right quote: And I don't ever want kids for myself Definitely the best way to go, all I have to do is look at what my parents went through to know that isnÔÇÖt something I want for myself.

quote: Interesting post. Thank you quote: The corporate run, and governmentally controlled (in theory at least), capitalism this country lives in today is different from ten years ago, twenty, etc. The farther back you look the more apparent the differences become. It seems more and more regulating is being required to maintain a "healthy" socioeconomic balance because the one exists only in the other. The change is slow but very quantifiable. Who is to say that some form of socialism isn't where it will all end up? Some would claim to have that infinite wisdom and foresight to see the future but...er...ok... The first part of what you said is very true, capitalism (like many things) needs governmental control to work well and avoid problems. Your extrapolation, however, suggests that this is infinitely true and that we will continually progress towards governmental control (which, by the way, is distinctly different from socialism). I sincerely doubt this, while the level of government control over business may increase there will be a point after which such increase is simply in the areas of new type of business rather then generally increasing control over all business. quote: However, the above being true, (no doubt some minds were screaming after my first paragraph) I see a lot of people clinging to a model that will not last. Nothing lasts forever, and I doubt capitalism is any exception, but that doesnt mean we should abandon it in favor of a neophyte system that has proved repeatedly incapable of long turn survival. Socialism is bad for the economy, period, and no country or state or province can survive without money. None. quote: I would rather face forward and search for ways to create a more balanced and fair state, then try to hold back progress with something that is causing so much pain and trauma.....to the "mob". From the best intentions can come the worst harm. Just because something sounds nice doesnt mean it will work, and not all progress is forward progress. Might I point out that, while capitalism is not very fair, it does support progress, both economically and scientifically. I will remind you that with scientific advances comes an increase in the quality of living for everyone. Even the homeless are better off then they were a hundred years ago, never mind people who actually work. quote: The trend in government, as history moves forward, seems to be for freedom, liberty and the political representation of all the people in a nation (not to mention the world). In the last few hundred years that is very true, but that has not always been the trend. Furthermore, like so many things, too much freedom can be as bad as too little. Dont get me wrong here, I'm not suggesting that fascism or some such is better, its not, but too much freedom can be a bad thing. Most people arent all that educated about what is going on in the world or even there own country and really arent qualified to take a hand in government in any but the most limited manner. They say that too many cooks ruin the broth, and were talking about a hell of a lot of cooks here. quote: And I think you will find, that what a lot of people really want is for these ideas's to take hold of the economy as well. Like before, what people want isnt always whats best for them. I agree that people need to have some control over the direction the country is going, but only enough to avoid exploitation. quote: You talk to me about stealing hard earned wealth and losers who couldnt make it with a million bucks and a panel of personal advisors.have you ever talked to rancher, farmer, janitor or other low mob type personnel? Have you ever walked half a mile in their shoes? Some of you have and found no way to relate. Others have and took pity. Still others have and found only confirmations on their cynical view on the human sprit. And I bet there is someone in the crowd that is working one of these fields and cant wait to disagree with me. Not to mention those who havent even really talked to someone in these professions... Well, not exactly. I have never spoken to a rancher or farmer, and the last janitor I spoke with must have been over a decade ago, but I do have an uncle (by marriage of course, if I was actually related to the bastard I would be reading seppuku for dummies not posting here) who works at a shipyard doing wielding and similar nonsense, and let me tell you this ass is exactly that. He is perpetually filthy, with greasy hands and clothing that would probably be bad to put in a land fill, and whats more he is drunk much of the time. He is a liability to his wife and kids and a general embarrassment to the family. He is unfailingly rude, with the social graces of a goat, and absolutely no idea about it. I could go on and on, but no doubt if you think for a moment about every bad stereotype associated with the word grease monkey you will have a good idea of what I'm talking about. He may be a good person at heart, but I wouldnt want to get close enough to find out. Dont assume that just because someone supports capitalism that they have no experience with those of lower social standings, and as to having no way to relate, I would rather not. quote: I have searched for the traits that make a mob, a mob, and the majority of the time I cannot find them (its a national phenomenon right?). Mob mentality exists with groups of people, never individuals. If you were to examine human cells in search of a human being you would come up perpetually short. Just like cells go together to make up a more advanced being, people tend to go together to form an entity in its own right. quote: I see hard working people trying to make ends meet and live a moral life. Not all the time.but for the most part. I have also had to acknowledge the propensity to hold certain views that I personally find troubling and backwards. But under that I always seem to find a value system based on good will towards others and personal responsibility and it motivates the hell out of me. Thats correct, as discrete individuals they are fine, but they are neither capable nor qualified to run a country. quote: I held many a conversation on an idea someone didnt agree with and they end it by saying money. Just like throwing their hand in the air and acknowledging a necessary evil that cant be gotten rid of. I say give it time and give them practical alternatives and you might be surprised what we find. Money isnt a necessary evil, it isnt evil at all, for without money (or an equivalent) there is no possibility to economic success. Furthermore, there have been no truly practical solutions presented. Maybe in a hundred years it will be possible, but right now no viable alternatives exist. quote: Right now we (Americans) have a huge machine (controlled ultimately by a very small group of people) telling folks to produce and consume and look damn good while they are doing it. Playing off ego and prideand making a fortune. And this is a bad thing? quote: You get back what you put out. A comforting thought, but not a sound basis for logical reasoning. There is no inherent fairness in the universe and that is the cold hard truth. quote: The corporate system is the most effective at what it does. Right now, it would seem the point couldnt be argued. But what is it really doing in the end? What should it be doing? It supports the human race at a frankly ridiculous population and it allows these billions of people to go through their lives in much greater comfort. For the truly successful it provides a means to stand on the backs of ordinary people and to live as they wish. It may not be fair, but even the worst off are benefited. quote: What if things were different? Then they would be different and all of this argumentation would be invalid, whats you point?

quote: Take your own advise and look at the past of our country....of course this makes you proud right? I guess people can look at something and see a lot of different things. Like I look at the great effectiveness of capitalism (sweat shops, debt that stunts growth, wars for money, glaring social inequities, inexcusable poverty levels for certain racial groups, etc) and I can't help but feel that somehow it is failing.... Then you feeling would be wrong. Capitalism is not failing, and when it does fail it will be to a superior economic model that will have come about naturally because of a need for such a model. Capitalism replaced feudalism gradually and naturally because it made for a stronger economy rather then because some intellectuals stood on their podium and spewed about it. This isnÔÇÖt to say that I dislike intellectuals, but I do think that they should pay a little attention to the real world. All of this discussion reminds me of a story from a book of fables that is well over a thousand years old. The story goes that 4 scholars are walking through the jungle and come across the bones of a lion. The first scholar looks at the bones and said ÔÇ£I can assemble these bones like they were when the lion was alive.ÔÇØ The second scholar says ÔÇ£I can put flesh and blood on those bones,ÔÇØ and the third scholar says ÔÇ£I can bring life to the lion.ÔÇØ The fourth scholar, who is watching the other three aghast says ÔÇ£friends, donÔÇÖt you see this is a lion, if you bring it back to life it will eat you.ÔÇØ The other three scholars refuse to pay heed to him so the fourth scholar climes a tree while they are rebuilding the lion. When the third scholar gives the lion life it gets up and kills and eats him as well as the other two scholars still on the ground. The story ends with a short rhyme Foolish scholars in there pride Made a lion then they died Scholarship is less then sense Therefor seek intelligence Socialist intellectuals want to make a system that will equalize everyone, but what they donÔÇÖt seam to realize is that, like the lion that the scholars mad, it will not go as they plan, but the resulting disaster will ruin the lives of thousands of people rather then just those who made it. [ 05-28-2002, 17:28: Message edited by: Dragon Lady ]