DraconisRex

quote:My question, then, is knowing as much as you do about the origins of Christianity can you except it as anything more then an artifact of a leader who wanted to bring some faith to his people and, eventually, a religious text that has been added to multiple times. You have to know as well as I do that there would be no need of divine power to convince people that kind of stuff was true, nor any real need to write down anything that even resembled fact in more then the most distorted way. It's like that lovely article that someone (SC I believe) pointed us too in the aliens thread where the guy was discounting the UFO crash in Roswell. All you need is a few people willing to exaggerate, a few more willing to lie outright, and a climate in which those type of lies will be accepted as the truth.The scrolls of the Bible were carried for many thousands of years, from generation to generation. There were councils held by Israelites, then later by the Jews (once they were a nation,) then, after the death of Jesus, that added to and subtracted from the Bible. What they were editing were books that were too superstitious, had too many miracles, and any mention that could even remotely be construed as reincarnation. (They missed one, and it's a doozy!) It was the council's beliefs that changed the original texts. However, quite a few of these lost texts have been recovered, but will not be accepted by the Christian/Jewish communities simply because it's not in their Bible. Now, at what time did anyone authorize them to change the Bible to suit their own agenda? What right have they to dictate what my religion is supposed to be? No Creationist that I have seen has convinced me by what the Bible says, that I or any other Gentile originated by the constricts of the Bible. If you're not Jewish, you're a Gentile. Period. No Creationist I've seen so far has convinced me that everyone on Earth originated from Adam and Eve. Yes, Moses used his texts as a controlling force of his people. But there is a lot more to it than that. That's the political end.... You have a good point about exaggeration, lying, and the right climate. By the same token, the government can use the same controls on its own people to hide facts; fear of reprisal is an excellent imperial control. quote: Ages ago I heard/read an explanation that in the first part of Genesis Adam and Eve refer to "mankind" and "womankind" and by the time they got to Cain and Abel they were now talking about specific people. This allows for "mankind" to name all the beasts and allows for Cain to go off and marry someone from somewhere else. I do not believe in a literal six day creation. Did they even have months and years back then? A "day" was probably only the only unit of time they were familiar with when the story was first started to be handed down. Not at the time of transcription. If dinosaurs didn't exist how come we got bones? Pretty good joke God played on us there. If they existed concurrently with man one would think there would be a mention in the bible. Saw the Tower of Babel somewhere in here. Glad that was brought up. Might explain different dialects in the region. Good point about the Chinese having a 15,000 year written history. Have seen some Discovery Channel show where there is evidence of a great flood. That's pretty cool. But if it wiped all of man but Noah and family why do we still have Asians and Africans and Europeans? If you translate Genesis 1:1 literally, you get ÔÇ£In the beginning, gods created the heavens and the earths.ÔÇØ However, (and this confuses the point,) God is royal, and therefore plural, and both heaven and earth are of His making, therefore also plural. Which means mans and womans.... That makes for some interesting possibilities. Remember, we know that are planets around other stars ÔÇô If only 1% of the stars have planets, and only 1% of those support life, then there are 10 million stars supporting life in this galaxy alone. Carl Sagan said that he believed the number was closer to 10%. As for the dinosaurs, they predate man. I do hear the Creationists stating that they were here at the same time as Adam and Eve and all that; I just don't buy it. Animals were made before man, folks, but how long before? ÔÇ£But they were killed off by the floodÔÇØ they say. Yes, the flood of planet-covering clouds caused by an asteroid hitting the ocean just off the coast of Greenland. I don't know about the flood. History supports a flood, both geologically and by historic accounts. But the cultures that existed before then are vastly different, and the Chinese seem to be unaffected by it. Interesting contradiction.... The problem with the Old Testament is, well, it's old. The language is unclear, especially in the first books. Translators have been fighting with that mess for a couple of thousand years, and, as Douglas Adams said about the Hitchhiker's Guide, it ÔÇ£contains much that is apocryphal, or at least wildly inaccurate.ÔÇØ When the Israelites were crossing the dessert, that cloud they were following had a tube at the front. The description sounds a lot like certain UFO ships being reported. Wouldn't that toss the scientific and religious communities on their holier-than-thou ears ÔÇô God is an alien! Well, the Bible makes it clear that God ain't from around here.... quote: Oh yes, I forgot about that. Another thing I simply adore about religion is that as soon as an idea becomes inconvenient it's ignored, interpreted to mean something else entirely, or is taken symbolically rather then literally. Reminds me a lot of our constitution actually... (Recipe for volatile discussion: mix religion and politics, shake well, and stand back)The Creationists have the same thinking about the scientists. In my thinking, you can't have science without religion, and you can't have religion without science. But, to coin a phrase, which came first: creation or evolution? About your recipe.... Neither religion or politics are adaptable to the other ÔÇô they contradict each other, since politics says to lie, cheat, and win, and religion says tell the truth, be humble, and let man win. A better volatile mixture would be one good scientist, and a Southern Baptist preacher, each having to prove their side to a council.... The war is on!

Until about the 2nd episode of Galactica: 1980, I was an avid fan. Part of the reason is that I strongly believe that man didn't start on this planet, and, as I will explain later in the Bible thread, dinosaurs would make that highly improbable. Anyway, I liked the way they handled Kobol in the original series, but have always felt that they should have stayed longer in that area, learning all they could. Yes, the Cylons were a problem, but I suspect there were technologies there that could have solved that problem; maybe once and for all. Guy with a gun coming after you. You must leave. But there may be weapons you can find right here. Decisions, decisions....

Somebody was having fun when they made that! Too bad it's true... LOL

Although the military tends to run space exploration, I think we still need a real civilian space agency (not that crap that NASA's been doing -- the military runs the show -- ask any crewmember of any shuttle mission.) Protection is one thing -- imperial control is another.

quote:Originally posted by Kiran: quote: Media organisations fear the ruling could unleash a flood of litigation around the world and will force them to review the content of their internet sites. Accountability?! Dear God, the horror! I will say this, tho. The law of the land of the offender not the offendee should be the one used. Personally, I think the whole case is bunk, since it should be reviewed and approached by the UN (yeah, I think we should exit the UN, but we still need a world court.) The case should play out like this: Although the defendant has business within a given country, if a website of that business is located in a different country, then the case would fall into International jurisdiction. Just like boats -- if I'm more than 2 miles off the coastline, I'm in International waters. I can blast my transmitter with as much power as I want, and, if I were off the New York coast, you can bet they'd hear it.... The Internet is in International jurisdiction, unless the actual website is located in the same country as the plantiff. We'll see how this plays out....

I take the New Testament of Jesus Christ as Holy. I take the Old Testament as history, but not an all-inclusive account of everything that happened since the beginning of time. Where God is concerned in the Old Testament, it is Holy, but where man is concerned, along with his laws, it is Mosaic. Do you see the difference? I have faith that God has given us His Word to be only part of what we need in this world. The Bible doesn't teach us how to read, do mathematics, make computers and cars, how to think, or even how to build an ark -- if it weren't for other texts, I wouldn't have any idea what a cubit was.... Unlike traditional Christians, I'm in no position to state, absoulutely, that the Bible is the only text that we need to live with God and Jesus in our lives -- that makes no sense, and even the Bible states (mildly out of context), "Obey the laws of your land," but how do you do that, if you can't read, and the Bible doesn't teach you to do so? God is my Heavenly Father, and He calls me His child. He is also the King of Heaven. That being said, can I be other than a prince? Or my wife a princess? Jesus is heir to the throne, but I, like everyone who accepts God, is already in Heaven, if they only believe....

quote:Originally posted by Dragon Lady: So vampires are rubbish, as, no doubt, are diablarists, demons, and similar creatures that traditionally had a place in the Christian mythos. On the other hand, you believe in such events such as the sun stopping in the sky, people living for hundreds of years, and similar nonse... I mean absolutely factual information that can be derived from an oral history of highly reliable children's tails (and not just any book of children's tails, but one which disdained the use of vowels no less). I'm sorry, I'm a skeptic, but there is more reason to believe in vampires then a series of legendary events that lack even the paltry evidence that suggests the existence of modern supernatural manifestations. And even if some of these stories have a basis in fact (as most myths do, I admit, though often only the very barest link to the real event) how accurately do you think they were retold, and how many were added or left out by creative storytellers trying to please there audience? Such information is worse then hearsay.I've done a lot of Bible studies (almost became a Baptist preacher, as a matter of fact), but I have too much of a science background to ingore evidence. Besides the possible finding of the ark, and certain other events that seem to have taken place, I find myself questioning the Bible as the sum-total of all human knowledge and existance, before the time of Moses. Moses was an adopted Egyptian, and had access to their libraries. The Egyptians had trade agreements with the Chinese, so the Egyptian libraries would have most likely contained copies of the Sanskrits. Remember I was talking about differing histories before Noah? All of the religions on Earth that are older than the story of Noah contain have a story similar to the flood. But I have found only one that has anything like Adam and Eve. The Sanskrits. Let's assume, for argument's sake, that Adam and Eve were the first two people on Earth, and that their generations are the sum-total of all life on Earth. They would be a close-knit family, even after 1,000 years. Kids would move away from home, but not that far -- they still have to be trained by their forebears, and they would have to trade supplies with each other to survive, especially after they figured out the wheel. Even after 2,000 years, they wouldn't be more seperated than a 1,000 miles, because they would want to stay relatively close to each other. Then one day, they beome captives of the Egyptians. Who have trade agreements with the Chinese, who are a couple of thousand miles away. But by this time, they have boats, which isn't all that unusual, but what is unusual is that the Chinese are vastly different in appearance and speech. I have yet to find a Creationist that can connect the Chinese or any of the Americas' Indian tribes to the lines of Adam, in terms of logic and believability. Here's where it gets weird, though. There is reason to believe, at some point in history, that the Egyptians had trade relations with the Inka empire. But that would be impossible, based on their respective distances. I've read theories stating that the whole land-mass of the world was at one time connected, but I don't believe it was in the time of man, or at least during the history of the Bible. Now, I don't discount the possible existance of vampires, werewolfs, etc., simply because all the races of man have similar stories. As culture intermingles, however, facts get distorted, which also, no doubt, happened to the Bible, at least before Moses' scribes finally wrote it down. At the same time, if Moses decided one day to free his people, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he took the entirety of the oral stories told, and created a new religion from scratch. With access to the Sanskrits, and some of its stories, and histories revealed by the Israelites, such a religion would be easy to create. Giving hope to a rag-tag group of ex-slaves would be extremely important to a leader. Until the Israelites visitied Babylon, there were no devils in the Bible. There was a Lucifer, Satan, and a serpent. Nor did Hell exist at that point. Now, Babylon just happened to have a multitude of devils, demons, etc., and 11 hells. When they left Babylon, suddenly devils, demons, and the existance of hell all became problems for the Israelites. Coincidence? (I find it hard to belive that the Bible would have missed these important points....) The Tower of Babel is an important cornerstone to multiple languages and cultures, as it clearly explained how these things happened. Since Israel was about to become a nation, knowing about differing cultures and nations would be very important to its rulers. Before this time, it didn't matter in the least to wonderers in the desert. This doesn't make the Bible wrong about general accounts, but it does beg questions concerning the other races on Earth, and how they came to be. To me, it is the history and religion of Israel, but may not be the only culture that God created on Earth. To a King of Heaven, how many sons could He have made, in how many forms, on Earth, and beyond? I'm not qualified to say......

quote:Originally posted by Kiran: Just real quick, then I won't post till I've researched tomorrow.... Adam and Eve lived 900+ years...they had 'many sons and daughters' that counted centuries as we count decades...so Cain's wife could believably be generations removed from himself.As far as I can tell, the Bible doesn't tell us how long Cain lived, or even that he died. There are certain sects that believe that Cain is the father of all vampires, if one can believe such rubbish. They claim that the "mark" that God gave him was one that permitted eternal life, but at the price of his soul. Punishment is reserved to God, in His own way, in His own time... Just another bit of (probably) useless information from your's truly....

Eclipse: quote:1. Cain married his sister. Not uncommon considering the number of people alive at that time. My only problem with this theory is that the Bible clearly says, after Cain had slewn Able: Genesis 4 quote:13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare EnochCain was no longer in God's graces, and was banished from Eden entirely, which means: a) God had made Cain his own wife, or; One of Adam and Eve's daughters had made the same level of mistake, and was banished also, or; c) Cain got his wife from local inhabitants that existed before the world was made, or; d) He found a Darwinistic monkey that was almost human. In any event, it still begs the question: Who and what was Cain's wife? (Kiran: You're not the only one lacking a life... LOL)

Oops... Fogot to finish my post... EP5, a bit of background info for you: quote:The Bible's account of Noah, the ark, and the Genesis flood states that the ark came to rest on the "mountains of rrt" where "rrt" has been translated "Urartu" or later "Ararat" during Armenian times. At the beginning of the Christian era, Ararat (another version of the Hebrew "rrt" - no vowels in the Masoretic Hebrew text of Genesis") was only a northerly subdivision of Armenia near the Araxes river. During the time of the Old Testament though, the Urartian region was much more extensive (as shown on the map above). From Assyrian texts, Urartu is known to have existed from about the late 13th century BC to the 9th century BC as a loose federation of tribes. However, if one takes a conservative view of Moses writing Genesis in the 15th century BC rather than the 13th century BC, then Urartu would have been known even in that era. The Urartian Kingdom existed from the 9th century BC until the 6th century BC when it was destroyed by the Medes and vanished from history, only to be rediscovered in the archaeology of the late 1800s and early 1900s. Thus there exists the possibility of a mis-interpretation of Genesis by post-Christian writers and Armenians restricting the Ark's landfall to the smaller Araxes valley area including Mount Ararat rather than the larger Urartian region or "mountains of Urartu" as described by Moses in Genesis. However, some of this is speculation since there are no cross-references in 15th century BC writing so no one really knows exactly where Moses was referring to when he stated that the ark came to rest on the "mountains of rrt". quote: During late August and early September 1983, a small group of explorers sponsored by and representing ICR was allowed to climb Mt. Ararat in search of Noah's Ark. The climbing team concentrated its efforts on the west and north sides of the mountain, particularly the east side of the Ahora Gorge, thought to be the most likely site for the remains of the Ark. The writer was once again the leader of the expedition, having directed the project since the early 1970's. We returned to the mountain on August 19 with a scaled-down crew of four Americans and one Turkish resident of America. The permits which had been requested beginning in early July were delayed until a very complete screening and evaluation process was completed by the Turkish government. Unfortunately, two members of the proposed team, Dr. Howard Carlson, Sumerian Archaeologist, and Dave Elliot, professional cinematographer, were unable to accompany the group at such a late date. Three of the team were mountaineering experts, two of whom were also trained in mountain rescue and medicine. One of these mountaineers, Donald Barber of San Diego, re-activated a previous injury at the 9500 ft. level and was unable to continue the climb. The other mountaineers, exmedic Brian Bartlett of Samuels, Idaho, and Dr. Ahmet Arslan of Washington, D.C., an expert on Turkish folklore, native of Mt. Ararat as well as professional climber, did make the climb. They were joined by Ed Crawford of Edmonton, Alberta, trained in Sumerian culture and cuneiform, and the writer. These were accompanied on the mountain by Ahmet Shaheen, vice-president of the Turkish Alpine Federation, and two Kurdish residents of Mt. Ararat. A return date of September 7 was necessary because of prior commitments, the group having planned to begin the work earlier in the summer. In contrast to nearly all past expeditions, ICR applied for and was granted full scientific research permits by the Turkish government. The group proposed to study archaeological remains in the Ararat area, make linguistic and cultural comparisons with remains at sites known to be of great antiquity and to test the ICR position that all civilizations had originally sprung from a common source, the survivors of the Flood who lived on Mt. Ararat. Specific plans had originally included careful documentation and evaluation of known inscriptions, relief drawings, underground chambers, and structures previously discovered in the vicinity of Mt. Ararat, while also searching the area for other ancient relics, including the remains of the Ark. All members of the ICR team were specialists chosen specifically as men capable of accomplishing these goals. Although the permits were finally granted and research visas issued by the Turkish Embassy in Washington, D.C., finalization of the necessary paperwork kept the ICR group off the mountain for still another week-and-a-half of precious time. While waiting, they re-visited an unexcavated cave in the foothills of Ararat which has been known but never publicized to any extent until John Morris' books in 1973 and 1975. 1, 2 The cave, which had been dated as pre-Hittite based on the carvings and inscriptions near its opening, is hand-carved into an upturned layer of sandy limestone. Many more aspects of this site were discovered, including a series of prepared ledges and a facade which had been smoothed off near the cave opening in preparation for additional inscriptions or openings. Unfortunately, much deterioration of the area has taken place since 1975 and an interior room (tomb area?) as well as an arched tunnel had collapsed. The excavation of this promising site remains of paramount importance in the understanding of the early civilizations which sprang up after the Flood. The other important archaeological site which ICR had hoped to document was declared a restricted zone and access was impossible. Objects discovered on past expeditions include a large semicircular altar, a cave with eight Sumerian crosses on its entry, inscriptions in a precuneiform script and many other objects of obvious antiquity. Much fruitful work could be done at this site. Instead of beginning their climb on the northern side, which lies within the sensitive zone adjacent to the Russian border, as they had hoped, the ICR team was forced to climb from the south side on the standard tourist route to the summit and then to traverse around to the west and north. Implications of this ruling included losing four days of the limited remaining time in ascent and descent, inability to establish a base camp with proper documentary and climbing gear, and many miles of dangerous climbing on loose glacial skree. Once at the Ahora Gorge, however, the team did check out what were thought to be the most promising sites, from vantage points above as well as below. No wood of any sort was discovered. Two new inscriptions were discovered on loose rocks in the bottom of the Ahora Gorge made of a granite stone common on the west face of the gorge. Another hand-carved cave which is easily seen on the vertical west wall of the gorge is reported to contain objects of religious significance by Kurdish villagers, none of whom have ventured there for superstitious reasons. Indeed, it would be nearly impossible to do so without technical rock climbing skills and equipment. Due to the reduced quantity and type of technical equipment brought on the long climb from the starting point on the south side of the mountain, the ICR team was disappointed in its efforts to enter the cave. Climbing from below was unsafe due to loose rock. A two-rope-length rappel down from above stopped about 10 meters above the cave. Those knowledgeable on the Ararat project know that late August is considered the optimum time to search. The weather becomes much more unpredictable and potentially violent in September and climbing may become quite dangerous. Reports of a record winter snowfall had dampened expectations for the summer's work, as did news reports of bad weather in mid-August. But the ICR team found the mountain rather hospitable for a change, although cloud cover hampered photography and two midday snowstorms forced temporary bivouacs. Each day the snow melted and very little snow remained below 14,000 ft. elevation while the glaciers had receded back farther than in anyone's memory. The conditions seemed optimum for a discovery. Other aspects of danger were also avoided. Relationships with the local Kurds on the mountain were enhanced by participation of the two Turkish guides and the assistance of the two well-respected Kurdish villagers. Thankfully, only a few minor skirmishes occurred with the usually vicious Kurdish wolfhounds. Furthermore, even though the team spent many hours and traveled many miles over loose "crumbly rock," only rare avalanches caused concern, with no injuries. We did encounter a bear in an ice cave on a hot afternoon in the Ahora Gorge, but thankfully, he was not interested in us. Despite the favorable conditions, no remains of the Ark were discovered. Those sites thought to be the most likely resting places for the Ark were thoroughly investigated and photographed. Other sites of less interest could have been checked out, but time was short. (As it was, the writer had to miss the first three weeks of his teaching duties for the fall semester and could not stay longer.) The team returned to the States on September 8 and 10, satisfied that they had done everything possible under the circumstances. They and their financial and prayer supporters were predictably disappointed that the Ark was not discovered, but rest in the fact that God will allow the discovery in His time, and not before. Turkey has recently changed its long-standing position against research and travel in the Ararat area. Whereas for the last 10 years or so, access has been quite limited, many groups from countries around the world were allowed to climb to the summit this year. Several expeditions were not restricted to the standard summit route and were allowed to look elsewhere in search of Noah's Ark. One such expedition consisted of Pat Frost, Dr. Howard Davis, James Davies and others who linked up with a Turkish group doing medical research on the mountain. They achieved good coverage of the North Canyon area, and the area west of the Ahora Gorge. Another, headed up by Dr. John Willis, excavated a portion of an interesting ice pack east of the summit at 16,000 ft. elevation with a modified chain saw adapted to ice. Still another group, John McIntosh and friends, spent some time searching the area east of the Gorge and toward the saddle between the two peaks. They then joined still another group headed by Col. James Irwin and including Eryl Cummings, Marvin Steffins, Ray Anderson, and climber Bob Stuplich. This latter expedition was even allowed to make plane trips around the mountain. The plane made four circuits at 11,000, 12,000, 13,000, and 14,000 ft. elevation, with several hand-held cameras on board. Unfortunately, their photos showed no objects of interest. Neither did their ground search, which explored the east side of the Ahora Gorge and toward the saddle. A final group intended to make a late-season attempt as the ICR group left the mountain, and as of this writing have not returned. The obvious thought has now crossed each explorer's mindÔÇöperhaps the remains of the Ark are not really on the mountain at all. Yet the overwhelming evidence remains.3 Something must be up there. But where? Seemingly, every possible location has been checked. On the other hand, it may be that our methods are no longer productive. Since none of these difficult and expensive foreign expeditions have been fruitful, in part due to their inability to spend large amounts of time on the mountain, perhaps it is time to turn the search over to the actual inhabitants, who have ready access to the mountain. Just such a solution has been proposed and is being carefully considered. An ICR supporter has recently pledged a substantial sum of money to be offered as a reward to any Turkish discoverer of the Ark. The money would be placed in a Turkish bank and would be released once an ICR observer has documented the discovery. Until the Ark is found, no money would be spent and no lives endangered. If accepted, the offer will be extended to the proper Turkish groups within the next few months. Those who might question such a plan should bear in mind that the combined expenditures of just this one summer's various expeditions totalled well over a quarter of a million dollars. A reward may well be a better use of limited finances, and seems now to offer a greater chance for success. Readers of Acts & Facts will be kept apprised of events as they occur. Hope that clarifies things for you...

quote:Originally posted by Epsilon 5: I'd like to see what the bible says about the dinosaurs. you can't deny them, unless you are an ultra-religious-conservatist (in which case you have to deny all of science), and the whole theory of evolution (Darwin sure gave all those religious people a headache). BTW - one of my religion teacher once told me that the genesis was written by someone (forgot who) while jews we're in exile in babylon (or somewhere around there), and that they we're getting corrupted by the gods of the place. The document would have been written to give faith back in the people. And about Noah, I think they already found something that would be alike to ark, the wreckage of a large boat, where there's the Tiger river (name?). Because it's a large delta in that area that often get flooded, Noah would have gotten fed up of losing his cattle, so would have made a boat to embark his possessions, and saved it all. And it would have inspired the author of the bible's version. I believe in god, but I also believe in science, and therefore, logic.Okay... It doesn't mention the dinosaurs, but understand that, before the time of Moses, the Bible was handed down by each generation. It reads like a child's story, because there was only the word of mouth, and that's the easiest form to pass a story that must be remembered in exacting detail. Until Moses had his scribes write the first books of the Old Testament, there were only the children who passed the story. Now, Noah brought up an interesting possibility -- maybe the Jews didn't start on this planet at all. "40 days and 40 nights" meant that they didn't know exactly how long something was, but it was longer than several weeks. I was talking about the disparity of history vs. the Bible earlier -- if several groups of humans were transported here, then their histories wouldn't match at all. That seems to be the case. Maybe man survived the dinosaurs becasue they died off long before he existed. This is just speculation, but with the multiple creations of the Earth, as defined by several religions, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility. When Moses came into the picture, the Israelites were slaves of the Egyptians. Moses, being an "adopted" Egyptian prince (in effect), would have access to the Libraries, historians, and everything else they knew about the planet. His scribes wrote the first books of the Bible, from the stories told by the Israelites of the time. There may have been much that was discarded, forgotten, or simply missed in the original text. That is why I stated in the Alien thread that we did not know, absolutely, that God did or did not create other beings as His children. Part of the problem with languages is demonstrated below: Genesis in Pig Latin -- This is a real link!

quote:Originally posted by Kiran: As per DraconisRex's request, this thread is for all questions biblical. Keep the gloves on. Here's a few thoughts to get you started. 1. Where did Cain's wife come from? 2. Was the world really created in six days, or is that figurative language? 3. What were the 'leviathan and behemoth' and where'd they go? 4. Revelations...explain it... 5. Did God really stop the sun? that's just a few to get you thinking...Enjoy! I'll be back 1) Cain's wife came from the land of Nod (which means wondering). What she was doing there is extremely unclear. 2) The Bible sort of answers this one. One of God's days is liken 10,000 years, which means the world was created, along with man, in 60,000 years. This doesn't match with science, but since cultures have vastly different cultures before Noah, then it might have a different conclusion that we would expect. Now, if you compare the Begats (meaning those two books of the Bible that list all the men born) with the number of years listed, then about 6,000 years ago Monday morning at 8:00 am, man popped into existance. Which was news to the Chinese, who have had a written history for more than 15,000. Thanks to Noah, and the Ark, it raises a complete set of questions, but also answers a disparity of human history on this planet. 3) I have no idea. 4) The Revelation of John (the Diciple) was written as a letter while he was in exile. It details the world to come, and the Return of Christ. What did want explained -- the entire book? 5) Did He stop the Earth or the sun? The effect is the same.... Don't know.

quote:Originally posted by Gunfighter: I read an article long ago that had a good point. You have a race of aliens that are thousands of years ahead of us in technology. They have the ability to fly light years through space to come and visit our little planet. And the first thing they do when they get here is turn on their landing lights. What the hell do they need with lights. every UFO you see has cute little blinking lights. Now i am all for life on other planets, But I dont believe a lot of these pics are ships from another world. Just my thoughts. Also excuse me if this post didnt come out right. It has been several years since I posted on any site.Good point. At the same time, they may use them for other purposes. Just because their lights are seen in our optical band doesn't mean it's their optical band. Communications, energy transfer, etc. are all possible in the TeraHertz frequencies. I have yet to see a transmitter than will work at that high a frequency, but if you can travel the stars, you can do just about anything you want to....

The main reason I believe that the USAAF (US Army Air Force -- changed to the US Air Force in October of the same year that the incident in Roswell supposedly occurred -- Roswell in July of 1947; USAF change in October -- cooincidence?) had access to basic UFO technology, is the following document: The Flying Saucer (If you go to Thomas Townsend Brown, you can find a pretty good history of the man, his theories, and works by other people on the Bifeld-Brown project.) This article was published in 1929, in both Science and Invention, and Psychic Observer. Although we had planes at that point in history, the military would have been more than happy to investigate what could be done with this type of craft. With great minds like Tesla, Brown, Einstein, etc., I doubt the military would have hesitated getting the project off-the-ground. What happened in Roswell? It could have been one of these Saucers, crashing into the ground and scattering its remains around the area. This type of project would have been extremely classified, and most of the military wouldn't have been aware of what they were dealing with. They just follow orders... Since the original lie, they've compounded the problem by trying to bury the truth. There are enough people that suspect a cover-up, but only because the military changed their story mid-stream. Weather balloon? Could have been some of that too. As for space aliens... I do know they were working on flight suits that could survive high altitudes as they were researching faster and higher planes. Also, these suits would be required if the "saucer" were to try for space-altitude flight. If the ship were to crash into the ground, what would they look like to the people seeing it? Now, this is part-speculation, based on a lot of personal research, but it seems more plausible than anything the USAF has released to-date. I do know that the Air Force had access to magazines, and they also had direct access to Bifeld and Brown. More to come.... [ 12-09-2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: DraconisRex ]

Kiran: Why don't we start a "Mysteries of the Bible" thread, just to ask questions and discuss what it didn't answer? For example: When Cain and Able went to the land of Nod (wondering), howfore did they obtain their wives? The current thread is specific to aliens, but I wouldn't mind arguing, uhm, that is, discussing the Bible with you. Maybe we could all learn a thing or two. You start it...

quote:Originally posted by Kiran: Hard to believe that He'd create all the species here on Earth just for our enjoyment, but He did. Bible says so. Besides, He's not in the misdirection business. i.e. leaving out info just to cause doubt later. The creation account tells of Him creating everything, and not once mentions life on other planets. (not trying to turn this into a religious discussion, just food for thought.)I've eaten that food before, even walked the walk, for that matter. Then, logic kicks in. 1) This is the same Book that barely touches upon the generations of women (who are mere chattle); 2) It does not mention the Angels nor devils being created until well-after the initial description of Creation; 3) It has been modified by man, many times, with deletions and additions at man's will. I cannot accept the Bible as the end-all of the repository of all knowledge concerning anything extraterrestrial, especially since Angels, devils, and even God Himself cannot be of Earthly origin by simple definition. That doesn't make the Bible wrong -- it was written for men about men and God. That's it. Just because it doesn't mention cars, computers, ariplanes, etc., doesn't mean we weren't meant to have them. But the lack of their mention doesn't make the Bible wrong either. However, if what you're saying is the general concenscious of Christians, then that means that the Roswell cover-up was right and Mulder was wrong -- We can't handle the truth. Any alien worth his salt would research us, and know full-well about human intolerence of anything non-Biblical.

The German word Heuhaufen means haycock, or haystack, in English. The English phrase you were looking for is, "Looking for a needle in a haystack." Most of us knew that haystack was the word you wanted to use, based on the extrememly common use of the phrase.

quote:Originally posted by Race Bannon IV: In 1997 A spokesman from the Pentagon went on tv and admitted that that the Air Force lied about Roswell. However he explained it was not a UFO or a weather baloon but another project that was so secret they can only now say what is was : Project Mogul , an attempt to monitor Soviet atomic blast test. this stunning revealation came about because a a Us Senator(maybe he's a Congressman) pressed the issue repeatedly. So let me get this right ..The Gov't says sorry we lied in 1947 but we're telling the truth now? it was a ballon so secret that we kept it to ourselves long after it was technologically redundant? I don't know what happened in Roswell but if we are waiting on truth from the gov't don't hold your breath and watch the skiesVery well said. Old motto of my family, from our Irish heritage: Fool me once, it's your fault. Fool me twice, and I'll be damned by my own blame. I'm Heinz 57 -- English, Scottish, Irish, German, Choctaw Indian, and God-only-knows what else. If I tend to mix heritages in my conversations, there is a reason... "He that lies will lie again" is more than a saying -- it's a truth. Especially when dealing with the Masters of Misinformation.

quote:Originally posted by Kiran: Oh, one more thing. If aliens existed, they'd most likely want NOTHING to do with our pathetic species. I disagree. Since God made everything there is, then He also made them. Curiosity and the desire to explore are both given traits of man, and I doubt seriously that God wouldn't share those gifts with any other sentient beings He decided to make. While the Bible is the Word of God, it is also limited to man -- I don't think any of we humans are qualified to say what God would or wouldn't do, who He would choose to create, what species He chose for His creations, or even why He would do any of this. Quadrillions of stars out there... Hard to believe God would waste all that space, just for one lonely blue-green planet in the midst of a sea of endless stars.....

I'm going to tie a few things together here, which form an interesting (if less than provable) hypothesis. Between the Aurora, the Super Valkyrie, the Lockheed X22A, and the Bifeld-Brown effect, it makes for a very interesting picture of what's going on. If we can prove that the USAAF did make a Bifeld-Brown ship back in the mid-1940's, then that would account for a lot, if not all, of the UFO reports to-date. I mean, if a country can make a UFO, why not use it? Tip-of-the-iceburg stuff, folks....

EP5, I find that post very interesting... On the Aurora, Per Jane's Defense: quote: For the past decade, the Canadian Air Force has been awaiting government approval to proceed with the upgrade of its fleet of 18 Lockheed CP-140 Aurora maritime surveillance aircraft, in service since 1980. Now, the onboard systems are becoming less effective and less supportable. The result is, instead of one turnkey project to upgrade the aircraft systems, the air force has been forced to buy replacement systems, one at a time. Sharon Hobson outlines the action to date. The reason I love Winston Churchill: quote:"You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing -- when they have exhausted every possible alternative."

Look. I don't believe in little green men. (I think they're gray, anyway... LOL) I'm not trying to start an argument, it's just that in the war of the Masters of Misinformation vs. The UFO Conspiracy Buffs, if witts were the weapon, they'd both lose to common sense.... US Air Force: If you're gonna lie, read the book Plausable Deniability beforehand. Conspiracy Buffs: Get some decent witnesses. Bug-Eyed Men from Outer Space: Come on, if you exist, the least you could do is leave some evidence. Urinate on a tree for all I care; that would be better than what we've seen so far! Something happened at Roswell that goes far beyond what the USAF has claimed. Weather balloons, even though they were used to detect Russian atomic blasts, would not remain classified for over 40-years. When satellites came out in the 50's and 60's, they could detect them far easier. Were they afraid of Russian reprisal at that point for using balloons back in the 40's? Anyway, I don't know what actually happened, but I do know the smell of the south end of a north-bound horse.... There is a conspiracy, but it may only be that of the conspiracy buffs... I'll post what I have available later this week.

Here's a shining example of what happens when we let government control our freedom. Be advised that it contains some foul language, and if you find that objectionable, don't click on the link. Associated Press Story -- Highly Commented in brackets. I think the comments are fun, but the story is a sad reflection on the government's efforts to remove our freedoms. Education is key to the safety and security of our great nation, but when abused, it represents the largest hole in the freedoms of current students and future generations.

Remember this always: Those that make sacrifices for others, be it directly or for their country, are special, and deserve maximum respect, and our thanks. It doesn't matter if they live or die -- we have a voluntary military right now, which means she decided she was willing to do whatever was needed in order to protect this country. That, in and of itself, proves without a doubt that she is braver than 90+% of America. Those who cannot accept and respect her choice are not worth the electrons they're made of. Simply consider the source, and write them off. Nothing is sadder than people too stupid to recognise what others are doing for them. I know she's your sister, but she's also a well-trained soldier. Be proud of her, and keep her in your prayers, as I will do also. Keep faith, and know that no matter what happens, it's all for a reason, even if we may not know the reason why....

Let's see... Normally, I watch the following: 24 on Tuesday -- Bought the 1st Season on DVD -- Probably will Season 2 Enterprise on Wednesday StarGate SG-1 on Fridays Unsolved Mysteries (daily on LifeTime -- Remember, I have a BattleCrusier, and I know how to use it -- no comments desired) CMA Awards pre-empt whatever else is showing Re-Runs of old cop/detective shows, such as Columbo, Rockford Files, etc. Law & Order (any version) Star Trek Whatever The occasional Spagheti Western* That's about it, not counting the MOVIES I watch because there isn't normally anything on TV.... * Note -- I really love John Wayne's The Alamo. Cool movie. Especially the extra's, and its alleged choreography.... I asked my grandmother back in the 70's, when we watched it, "Grandma, did they have tennis shoes back then?" She answered, "No, child, they didn't. But what caught my eye were those bright-red LED watches that everyone was wearing in the middle of the night." My Dad caught the fact that the Mexicans climbed the telegraph poles to cut the lines. Which is cute, since the telegraph wasn't invented until some 10-years after the Battle of the Alamo....