sckid1108

Last note, from Nomads Post ... A group of die-hard right-wingers, Israelis and American Jews, has tried recently to undermine the debate by suggesting that the Palestinian population numbers are inflated. Based on actual birth and death statistics and some controversial assumptions, they argued that there are only 2.4 million Palestinians -- rather than the Palestinian Authority's 3.8 million figure. Fewer Palestinians means no demographic threat; hence no pressing need to leave the West Bank and Gaza. Their findings, however, were rejected by Della Pergola, and by a team from RAND Corp., which published a blueprint for a Palestinian state. Sounds like those RAND guys have a CONFLICT OF INTEREST !!! I think that the demographics suffer the same problem that researching the genetic bassis of homosexuality, evolution, etc. suffer from... Science is not independent of politics, religion, and ideology.

Hey Nomad ( good to hear from you & Prez of course... :-) (1) Doesn't justify or excuse the behavior. According to the Western concept of the nation-state, the exclusive right to the use of military force is reserved for the nation or state. Groups or individuals that act outside of that construct get labeled, militants, criminals, or terrorists. With that definition varying with the goals of that group or individual. (2)I will *ABSOLUTELY* agree with you that genetics is NO WAY to base claims for territory. In fact it's nonsensical. (3) Your characterization of Hamas is DEAD ON. Make no mistake that they fit the definition of terrorists and/or they are the "other side" of the Palestinian civil war ( PA vs. Hamas ). What is of vital relevance is that Hamas is a Religiously motivated group that engages in all aspects of Muslim life. Unfortunately for the Israelis that also includes violence. Safe to say is that enough pals support violence against israel such that terrorists organizations find enough support in the form of political approval, recruits, money, etc. etc. that they can continue their operations. See references to the culture of martyrdom that has developed there. (4) Demographics is THE bogey man of israeli politics. Check this link and see about the controversy: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=83584 Personally I think it is unwise to base policy on what may or may not materialize in the form of demographics in the future. Israel has severe issues that it needs to deal with NOW (ackshav !). Demographics have always been against the Jews but we survive anyway. If your religious its G-d if not it's "sheer dumb luck" If the discussion is centering around Israel's "Rights" or "Claims" to the Land of Israel I think people can safely take several justified positions. 1) Biblical, The World is G-d's, He can give or take land from whomever G-d chooses. if your not of the biblical mindset then 2) Don't need a "Right", The Jews are there , the state is established and they have the guns to keep it that way ( just like the USA ) or 3) The original UN charter giving Jews a homeland to try and recompense for the holocaust or 4) Historic homeland, that was purchased, fought for, and ultimately settled. The narative similar to that in the book "From Time Immemorial" or 5) Nations don't have any inherent "Rights" to land, that is a fiction. Whoever has the power gets the land. When a nation becomes weak it is conquered. Period. 6) The Arabs in fighting wars took a gamble and lost. Too bad. We're not giving Austria to Germany anytime soon why should we give Israel or pieces of Israel to violent and hostile Arab nations. On and on and on. I like that you brought up some of the other ethnic groups that have a desire for a specific ethnic homeland. The question is why do we focus on the Jews and Israel so much ? Don't the Kurds and others deserve our support, time, and money ? Odd huh?

Hello, I read Nomad's essay on the genetic background of the Jews and how some Jews are related to the Palestinians. Without disputing the veracity of all the science that was cited, my comment is So What ? The Khazar kingdom was a kingdom of converts. See Rabbi Yehudah HaLevi's work, "The Kuzari" Judaism has had converts for as long as Judaism has existed. Why should the genetics of Jews with the possible exception of some Kohanim families be any different than anybody else on the planet ? The Arab/Jewish conflict is not racial or genetic it is a spiritual/religious/cutural conflict. If you want to understand both sides of the issue then you need to look at it through the lenses of how the two sides see the issue. More relevant is this information from the Palestinian Media... ( sorry for the long quote but this is a politics post :-) PMW: Islam's Mandatory War Against Jews and Israel in Palestinian Authority religious teaching Special report # 37 Studies on Palestinian Culture and Society [study #4]:(July 2, 2001) by Itamar Marcus, Director Introduction Throughout history religious wars have been fought in the name of different Gods. The premise and basis for discussion of the Oslo Accords was that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was not an irreconcilable religious war, but one over borders. However, the Palestinian religious leaders, all appointees of the PA political leadership, are publicly preaching that the Israel-Palestinian conflict is part of Islam's eternal religious war against the Jews.1 Jews are portrayed as the eternal enemies of Allah, and the killing of Jews as Allah's will. On the national level, Allah prohibits acceptance of Israel's existence and will destroy it. The Palestinians have redefined the conflict from one over borders, in which compromise may be a solution, into a religious war for Allah's in which compromise is heretical. The implications for future peace are ominous. This report is not brought as a critique of Islam's religious traditions nor does it claim to represent authentic Islam. Rather it demonstrates the way Palestinian Authority religious leaders are selecting, interpreting and teaching Islam. Although Islam has positive references and traditions regarding Jews, the PA religious leaders have chosen to cite only negative references in their religious teaching, using the traditional sources to justify and even to demand uncompromising hatred of Jews and Israel. The religious ideology of the Palestinian Authority religious leaders as expressed in the Friday sermons and religious lessons can be summarized by eight essential principles, four regarding the Jews, and four regarding Israel: Jews 1. Jews are the enemy of Allah. 2. Islam is fighting a continuous religious war against the Jews. ..3. The killing of Jews is a religious obligation. 4. Palestinians are the vanguard in this war against the Jews, and all Islamic nations are obligated to assist in this war. ..Israel 1. All of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea [which includes all of Israel] is a religious Waqf - an Islamic religious trust. Any Muslim who relinquishes any part to Israel is damned to Hell. ..2. All agreements with Israel are inherently temporary in nature and are signed only because of Israel's temporary balance of power advantage. ..3. Allah will replace Muslims who shirk their obligation to battle Israel. ..4. The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty. The Palestinians repeatedly use Islamic sources to defend this religious hatred, even demanding the killing of Jews as a current obligation and the will of Allah. At least four times in recent months Palestinian religious leaders have taught publicly that the following Hadith (Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of Islam today, expressing Allah's will that obedient Muslims kill Jews. The Hadith itself states: "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"2 Recently a preacher attacked the Arab-Muslim world leaders because they are avoiding attacking Israel with missiles and tanks, and threatened them that Allah is liable to "replace them with other men... that fight for Allah... to liberate the lands from the defilement of the Jews".3 It is to be stressed that these broadcasts by officially appointed religious leaders, presenting the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as an eternal religious conflict, have been preached long before the current violence began. This preaching it is not a reaction to the present violence, and possibly the opposite is true. The P.A.'s religious world-view, that sees agreements with Israel as inherently temporary and war against the Jews as an expression of Allah's will, has in all likelihood fueled the hatred that has lead to Palestinian terror and violence. This report presents representative selections from sermons broadcast during recent years: Part 1. The Eternal Islamic War against the Jews Led by the Palestinians; the Jews are enemies of Allah "We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Muhammad said: 'The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them... ' We the Palestinians are the vanguard in this undertaking and in this campaign, whether or not we want this..."4 "Blessed is he who fights Jihad in the name of Allah, blessed is he who [goes on] raids in the name of Allah, blessed is he who dons a vest of explosives on himself or on his children and goes in to the depth of the Jews and says: Allahu Akbar, Blessed be Allah. Like the collapse of the building upon the heads of the Jews in their sinful dance-hall, I ask of Allah that we see the Knesset collapsing on the heads of the Jews."5 "The battle with the Jews will surely come... the decisive Muslim victory is coming without a doubt, and the prophet spoke about in more than one Hadith and the Day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers [the Muslims] over the descendents of the monkeys and pigs [the Jews] and with their annihilation."6 "The Jews are the Jews. There never was among them a supporter of peace. They are all liars... the true criminals, the Jewish terrorists, that slaughtered our children, that turned our wives into widows and our children into orphans, and desecrated our holy places. They are terrorists. Therefore it is necessary to slaughter them and murder them, according to the words of Allah... it is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them anyplace that you find yourself. Any place that you encounter them - kill them. Kill the Jews and those among the Americans that are like them... The Jews only understand might. Have no mercy on the Jews, murder them everywhere..."7 "...Allah decreed upon us in this lifetime to humiliate the Jews sooner or later..."8 "My dear brothers, so continues the struggle between the Muslims and the Jews from the past, both near and far, in the present and in the future. And in this matter the word of Allah will be fulfilled: (Koran, Sura 5,84) 'There will not be found [anyone] more hostile to the believers than the Jews and the idolaters."9 2. A repeated goal of PA religious teaching is to defame Jews and Jewish tradition: "...Their Bible [of the Jews] today, has no light and no teachings. Their Bible today, is just a bunch of notes that were written down by people who lie about God, his prophets and his Bible...those who do these kinds of things are the descendants of Abelis, meaning the descendants of the satans...they fabricated a Jewish history book full of promises to Abraham, Issac and Jacob that He will give them the land of Palestine...the entire Bible comes to claim ownership on the land for the Jews."11 3. The Oslo Agreements are Inherently Temporary -Future Generations will Complete the War "All of the agreements entered into [with Israel] are temporary, until the decree comes from Allah and until the destiny from Allah is realized."19 "...Before long, Palestine will return to the bosom of Islam, we say this with certainty, in accordance with the religious texts... the glorious Islamic nation, to whom is promised victory by Allah..."20 "Who is responsible for the loss of Palestine... and [for] deceitfully labeling it Israel?... The Prophet [Muhammad] soothes us with many Hadiths that Palestine shall return to its former days.... [Later] "We must prepare a foothold, for the coming army of Allah, by divine predetermination. May it be Allah's will, this oppressing state shall pass, Israel shall pass. This oppressing state, America, shall pass, the oppressing state Britain, shall pass, [those] that brought this catastrophe [nakba] of this nation..."21 "How will Palestine return?... Allah will support whom He loves. 'Allah loves whoever battles for him' (Koran, Sura 61,4). Therefore, there is no escape from a Jihad [religious war] for the sake of Allah. As long as this nation shall neglect the commandment of the Jihad, Allah will humiliate her. When will Palestine return? When we impose the law of Allah... Palestine will return when we return to Allah... Palestine will return if we will know who is the enemy and who is the friend, and the games of world Jewry... 3. "Surat al-Jum'a (2) "...Oh you who are Jews, if you think that you are favored of Allah, to the exclusion of (other) men. Then long for death if you are truthful. But they will never long for it because of the (deeds) their hands have sent before... as for the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you ..." 30 4. The Destruction of Israel is a Global Islamic Responsibility "...The Muslims and Arabs must stand behind the Palestinian nation, which is the vanguard in the war against Allah's enemies. By the living Allah, the Jews are Islam's enemies in this life time..."31 "There are Hadiths (Islamic traditions attributed to the prophet Mohammed) regarding our struggle against the Jews. And it is given: "The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Muslims make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!' This Hadith clarifies to us the characteristics of the campaign between us and the Jews. The tree and the rock do not say 'Oh, Palestinian', 'Oh Arab', or 'Oh resident of the Middle East'. Rather they say: 'Oh, Moslem, Servant of Allah'"32 Footnotes: 1 This ideology is preached in sermons and religious lessons that are broadcast every Friday on official Palestinian television and radio, and from the religious lessons appearing in PA newspapers and television. 2 Sheikh Muhammed Abd al Hadi La'afi, Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001 and 27 April 2001, Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi Palestinian Television in the main Friday sermons on 30 March 2001 and 13 April 2001. 3 Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television, 30 March 2001. 4 ibid., 28 July 2000 5 Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Madi, Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001 6 Sheikh Muhammed Abd Al Hadi La'afi, Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001 7 The preacher Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, a member of the Palestinian Sharianic (Islamic religious law) Rulings Council, and Rector of Advanced Studies, the Islamic University, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000 8 Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Palestinian Television, 8 September 2000 9 Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television., 13 April 2001 10 Palestinian Authority Television Religious Class, 17 December 98, and 16 February 99. 11 Religion class on Palestinian Television, 3 November 1998 12 Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Official Preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque, Palestinian Radio , 30 April 1999 13 Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Palestinian Television, 8 September 2000 14 Palestinian Television, 11 January 2001. 15 Dr. Ahmed Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 13 October 2000. 16 Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina, Official Preacher of the Al Aqsa Mosque, Palestinian Television, 8 September 2000 17 Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Palestinian Television, 18 August 2000 18 Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 13 April 2001 19 Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi., Palestinian Television, 28 July 2000 20 ibid., 4 May 2001 21 Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Maadi, Friday Sermon, Palestinian TV, June 8, 2001 22 ibid., 4 May 2001 23 Shiekh Yuosouf Abu Sneina,.Palestinian Television, 8 September 2000 24 Palestinian Television., 1 September 2000 25 Al Hayat-Al Jadida, 24 July 2000 26 Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A, p. 68 cited in report of Center for monitoring the Impact of Peace 27 Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A p. 67-68 28 Reading the Koran, sixth grade, p.78 29 Reading the Koran, sixth grade, p.20 30 Reading the Koran, sixth grade, p.23 31 Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 18 August 2000 32 Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian Television, 30 March 2001 33 ibid., 30 March 2001 34 Dr. Ahmed Yousuf Abu Halabiah, Palestinian Television, 11 August 2000 35 Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian Television, 13 April 2001 36 ibid., 13 April 2001 37 ibid., 30 March 2001 38 ibid., 30 March 2001 39 ibid., 11 August 2000 40 Dr. Muhammed Madi, Palestinian Television, 13 April 2001 41 ibid., 30 March 2001 42 ibid., 4 May 2001 PMW Palestinian Media Watch monitors the Palestinian media and issues free reports PMW is an independent, Jerusalem-based non-profit organization To receive reports regularly, enroll at [email protected]

At least thats what they say. Have you read the Hamas charter ? Not that friendly. To me at least.

I don't think the U.N. or any modern day nations care about Israel's biblical claim to the land. The evangelical christians in the USA on the other hand do seem to lend us some support because of those claims. We have yet to see how that plays out in the political arena. In the tourism arena it's been, well, weird, but GREAT.

I have not read or heard of any compelling arguments that can demonstrate that this will ameliorate the terrorism against Israel. Ex-IDF Chief of Staff Gen. Ayalon and Ex-Head of ShinBet Avi Dichter both conclude that this will not end the terrorism. Leaders from Hamas, Hizbullah, PFLP, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and Fatah all see this as a victory for their "resistance". Israel has already sacrificed for peace, thousands of dead civilians, tens of thousands wounded, homes and lives destroyed. Multiple peace offers, conferences, negotiating sessions, JOBS (remember the gaza settlements gave employment to the pals...gone), etc. etc. When will we see some good will from the Arabs ? Maybe dismantle some Arab settlements near Jewish cities ? Or disarm the terrorist groups ? Elect some leaders that are not terrorists or holocaust deniers ....

Guys, don't you think that an official iraqi government program that regularly paid $25,000 to families of people that murder civilians counts as a serious link to terrorism ? I would say that is an incentive to terrorism, a cause of further terrorism, and a sign of a seriously sick government. Let's not minimize.

I apologize, one last point. Nomad said that Finkelstein and Silberman are not trying to undermine the bible's import, now since I have only a passing aquaitance with Finkelstein's work I'll grant him an academic pass. What is SAD is that their work is being used to undermine Judaism, like this cute little snippet from Amazon's Friendly Universal Customer Review team (tm, patent pending).... ( read the 2nd to last paragraph ) Very good despite a few small problems, June 23, 2005 Reviewer: [email protected] (Dallas, Texas) - See all my reviews Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman have earned their pay. "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts" rocks. This book simply puts to rout the sickening mythology underlying Judaism and Christianity. Even though I found the lack of end or foot notes and the authors employment of 'begging the question' bothersome, the findings of modern archaeology dispel the darkness of superstition. Without the patriarchs, Moses and the Exodus, the conquest of Canaan, or a unified kingdom, the basis of the three major monotheisms crumble. This is very good. Humanity need no longer be chained to vile and destructive mind viruses. As light replaces darkness, so truth supplants lies. The Israelites were indigenous to Canaan rather than invaders from Egypt. The Northern kingdom did not succeed from the united monarchy, rather it formed as a natural expression of the times. The Omride dynasty was not the villainous evil portrayed by the bible, but were instead strong and competent rulers for their people. Despite contradictory assertions regarding the size of settlements in Jerusalem during the middle bronze age, (On page 239-240 the authors indicate the late Middle Bronze age settlement Urusalim "... was a small highlands stronghold, located in the southeastern ridge of ancient Jerusalem..." while on page 323 the authors tell us "Shechem ... Bethel and Jerusalem - all three were massive Middle Bronze strongholds.") there is much to learn from this book. The authors conclusion regarding the Omrides is strongly at odds with the biblical tone expressed by the writers and editors of the Kings and Chronicles. On page 194 we read: "The true character of Israel under the Omrides involves an extraordinary story of military might, architectural achievement, and (as far as can be determined) administrative sophistication. Omri and his successors earned the hatred of the Bible precisely because they were so strong, precisely because they succeeded in transforming the nothern kingdom into an important regional power that completely overshadowed the poor, marginal, rural-pastoral kingdom of Judah to the south. The possibility that the Israelite kings who consorted with the nations, married foreign women, and built Canaanite-type shrines and palaces would prosper was both unbearable and unthinkable." Indeed it was unthinkable to the blood thirsty barbaric cult of the hill god YHWH. The human and animal sacrifice practiced by the proto Judites (as well as most of the other peoples in the region) and supression of Asherah fertility cults show how unthinkable northern success was. Changing from a matriarchal to patriarchal society brought with it the mindset prohibiting acceptance of the Northern kingdom as well as the debasement of women. Finklestein and Silberman briefly touch on YHWH's married status (to Asherah ) on page 242 in the course of describing the polytheistic practices of the poor and jealous southern kingdom. This rich area of study is being harvested by others. Surely the authors of "The Bible Unearthed" could have devoted more than a couple of paragraphs to this topic as it underlies the murders and degradations heaped upon women of most cultures. Buy this book and Finkelstein's new one. Perhaps, like the Assyrians, the time of Judaism and Xianity will come to a close.

Good morning everyone ( Boker Tov ), I have a tummy ache so I am home today from work. Very interesting discussion but dangerously off topic, for which I'll take the blame. As to Palestinian IDENTITY I will agree with Nomad that at this point in time it has been successfully constructed as was the intention and strategy over the last few years. See Mr. Faisel's work in particular to read all about this. From my 'arm-chair' research I have seen a wealth of biblical archeaology that is in full accord with the interpretation of our sages. Something to keep in mind is that only a VERY small percentage of the archaeological sites in Israel have been excavated. Finkelstein and Silberman have their critics (devastating critics IMHO). There are some excellent texts that give a more, um, pro-bible perspective: "From Text To Tradition", Schiffman "Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls", Schiffman "Israel in Egypt", by James Hoffmeier "Biblical Personalities and Archaeology", by Leah Bronner All in all there is a rational case for traditional judaism, but that is something for another time. Let me put it this way, in Israel you have the luxury of choosing to be an atheist. In Islam ... well... To Nomads 3rd point about flux of populations. This is very true in the middle-east. Now until recently Jewish populations followed matrilineal descent and the intermarriage rate hovered at around "0.02%". What you find is that because of some of the forced conversions, intermarriages, etc. that there are people with Jewish heritage in surprising places. There are cases of palestinian youths involved in violence against israel that turned out to be jewish. etc. Still to summarize this is a war between cousins no doubt. What remains after all this time is that Jewish identity is a mix of spiritual identification AND/OR genetics. For visual picture... there are a handful of orthodox Japanese converts ( gerim) to Judaism. How's that for a little Osem in your Semitic Soup :-) To Nomad's fourth point. Without going into a hairy debate, the Arabs started the wars they have to deal with their own refugee problem. In every negotiation the parties bring to the table issues that are "Non-Negotiable". For Israel this is one of them. From a PURELY practical standpoint flooding israel with the hostile children of refugees would not aid Israel's security, Jewish character, or quality of life. I for one support the idea of the raison d'etre for Israel is as a jewish state. People do take that position as "racist" but I would comment that they are being hypocritical on several accounts. We can debate that later but I refer you to the signs in pre-WW2 europe that read "Jews To Palestine !" and the signs that now read " Jews Out Of Palestine !". Point being is that Jews need Israel, just like the world need a Jewish Israel. In a sad way the Arabs need a Jewish Israel to hate, to love, and to show that there can be a decent country in that part of the world. Nomads 5th point is absolutely true ( read Nonie darwish, Walid Shoebat, Briggite Gabriel, http://www.arabsforisrael.com ). Unfortunately they are a small minority who's voice is utterly crushed through violence. Not to mention the ethnic cleansing of Arab-Christians from the PA territories, nothing but a steady decline in population and violent oppression. To your point about "collective punishment" and what it's effects are. This is a WAR, a fight to the death. In the long run it is in Israel's interest to fight until they secure an unconditional surrender. It is ugly, bloody, and brutal, BUT THIS IS WHY WE AVOID WAR. Again the Arabs get the boogie prize for this, The three "NO's" at the Khartoum conference. For the Arabs the Palestinians are cheap cannon fodder to be used in a proxy war. Israel doesn't have the luxury to be expending the lives of many soldiers to "arrest" a single terrorist. That is not how you win a war. 6th point. De-nuclearization. This has pro's and con's. Without nukes you open the door to a large-scale conventional war ala 1948,1967,1973,etc. The other point is nukes in the middle-east ? Dude, Israel is TINY you nuke tel-aviv and they will feel the fallout in Cairo. Not to mention you can see Saudi Arabia from a hilltop in Jerusalem. Not that a nutcase would care... The pro is that non-proliferation would hopefully minimize rogue groups from attaining serious firepower. As for being a match for the IDF, Egyptian forces, Jordan, & Saudi are all obtaining access to modern american weaponry. Just because Israel historically had victories (miraculous) in the past doesn't garauntee their success in the future. I personally would not give my enemies the opportunity or incentive to come at me again in a land war. Oh the muslim countries are armed to the teeth have no fear :-) Remember they hate eachother along with Israel. It's the middle-east you have to be hospitable, feed your guests, carry a heavy machinegun, and pray 3 to 5 times a day ! P.s. The food in spain was good, the food in Italy was GREAT ! ( uh oh, I might have just started a food fight ).... P.p.s A great tool for getting past the PA propaganda is to examine the lives of the non-Arab Muslim minorities in the ME. Kurds, Chrisitians, Jews, you know Dhimmis. A nation will a real respect for human rights and equal oportunity displays those values across the board. For the minorities in the ME there has been only oppression and at best 2nd class citizenship. Remeber the hundreds of thousands of Arab-Jewish refugees from muslim countries... http://www.landmarkmedia.com/video.php?video=957

My machine.... maybe something like a *PILE* of crap like a Realtek AC'97 integrated audio chip ? Might be time to buy a Turtle Beach Montego. Thanks for the rapid patch, that was a record.

I think you misunderstood jag's point. He is differentiating between the invented identity of "palestinian" arabs and the phillistines of ancient history. Nobody makes this mistake so let's give Jag the benefit of the doubt ;-) Also no one disputes that there are many arabic dialects just like nobody disputes that there are variations in hebrew ( ashkenazic, sephardic, yeminite, etc.) grammar and pronunciation. The point is that none of this is relevant to the current political situation. If people are going to play the "my people were here first card" then I guess the Jews get to play the "Creator of the Universe gave us this land and if you don't like it look what happened to Bilaam card." It gets more fun when you wheel out the Quran quotes that support the Jewish claim to Israel (see Sheikh Prof. Abdul Hadi Palazzi) and the Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran into English. http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11194 ) For giggles do you folks remember when Arafat (yimach shemo) claimed that the palestinians were the descendants of the ancient canaanites ? Real funny stuff coming from a guy born in Egypt (Cairo, Aug 4th, 1929). For a nice treatment of the modern day history of the Israeli/Arab conflict see David Meir-Levi ( many excellent articles). http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadA...le.asp?ID=18072 Enjoy p.s. hey Nomad, if your wife is a sephardi jew then you know that the sephardi cholent is like 100x better than the ashkenazi stuff ! I mean we're not in RUSSIA anymore, people can leave the shoe leather out of the pot now...

Israel is totally sweet ( at least for the number of weeks I spent there. ) How's your hebrew Prez ? My point is we seem to be relying on a very small country to be doing a lot of the dirty lifting in the middle-east. Our support for this little green dirt ball we all love goes something like this: " bomb iran for us and we'll make you give gaza to hamas, oh and while your at it give them guns and ammo..." According to my israeli pals they don't trust netanyahu AT ALL. I don't either. No offense but give me a real jew to run the country not a left over zionist from 1948. Like: Effie Etam or Moshe Feiglin or Paul Eidelberg. You know somebody that wears a kippah more than once a year... ---- This summer was really tough in Jerusalem, my wife and I were *priviledged* enough to witness the black-suited + jack booted police beat the street protestors. Not to mention the two IDF soldiers that went at it with fists. This disengagement is a real chillul hashem. L'hitraot p.s. Still a WONDERFUL country to visit. People were friendly and took us into their homes. Yeshivahs were fun and the food was to die for. p.p.s DONT TRUST THE MEDIA ON ISRAEL. Suggestion: http://www.israelnn.com

Small bug. 1) Started a ROAM campaign ( megaron ) 2) Bought a Linear IV shield upgrade 3) Upgrade box in the Logistics section lists the shields to upgrade. Instead of a Tacyon Anagram it read I/Audio_Tapes. I/Audio_Tapes is #419 in the Items.ini I think it should be #439 (T.A. Anagram). This is in several of the assets in the assets.ini file. I don't really want to mess with these scripts...(scared).

1) Graphics are a major improvement. I basically maxed out the settings for the game and it seems to run smoothly on an NVIDIA GeForce 6600. 2) Stability. UC would CTD every 30 minutes. I fiddled with the drivers and everything to no avail. UC AWA I left running for several hours while I had dinner and wasted time doing other non-geeky things. Did NOT crash. 3) Documentation. Nice improvement, I like the configuration options pdf, the tutorial, and the keyboard commands all in nice seperate files. At some point having the appendix in a pdf file would be nice but it is no big deal. Gotta play some now back later

I received the game today Monday 4pm PST from BTMicro Installed, works great, looks beautiful.

I oppose a pre-emptive strike by israel on several grounds. 1) Why is this Israel's problem and/or responsibility ? The US and Europe, if their policy is to have a non-nuclear Iran then it is their diplomatic issue to deal with. Personally I want the US and Europe out of Israeli politics they have enough to deal with without the interference of big brother and the European's who are famous for their love of Jews and Judaism. 2) What are we really admitting here? That Iran has stated it's intention to nuke Israel ? Is this what we expect of Iran ? If that is true you would think the world would act pre-emptively or unilaterally against an "Islamic Bomb". Is it that we don't believe the threat, don't care, or don't take it seriously ? Most likely Israel has nukes and all that would happen between Iran and Israel is a nuclear stalemate. For my part I am OK with that since it is my expectation that the Islamic government in Iran is not long for this world. Let's be honest, we're not concerned with Israel being nuked, what we're concerned with is that the Mullahs develop atomic weapons and sell them to anybody on the planet with a couple million in spare change.

I'll take a map and manual.

Ordered from BT Micro. Been away from UC for awhile and it seems like a good time to get back into it with the release of a new title !

Hi, quick comment on squeezing some performance from your PC rig. USB devices can burn CPU cycles even when not in use. USB host chips are kinda of like telephones that ring and hangup every once in a while because they want to make sure your still home...:-) Here is an example: if you look at my system information and then tag onto it a USB External HD, USB Wireless Adaptor, USB Joystick, USB Toshiba PocketPC cradle, and a USB CD-ROM drive you can imagine that the processor can burn some time just handling housekeeping requests from the USB host chips that are attached to these devices. I experimented by removing these devices one and a time and found that in-order I picked up performance by: 1) USB CDROM -> IDE CDROM (even if you don't use the CD for the game 2) USB Wirless Adaptor -> Wireless Ethernet bridge 3) Unplug the USB HD (just for storing media files) I noticed about a 5 to 7 % performance increase performance from a general benchmarking program. I got about an extra 10 fps playing Jedi Academey. Anyway unplug your unneccessary USB devices and replace your USB CDROM with an IDE one and you should pick up some performance for UC or whatever. Hope this is slightly interesting.... -M

Thanks for your LOL response SC. I'll cut Mel some slack I mean without him we wouldn't have gotten to see scottish people with makeup on and skirts... maybe I need to rethink this :-) -M

This is kind of a dumb question. I can transport marines/cargo/pilots/AE to planets but I cannot seem to get prisioners to be transported. I really just want to transport prisioners into space or leave them stranded on a planet. Can somebody help me be cruel ? Thanks, -M

I understand SC's feelings regarding the posts on the DC forum. I spend some time reading and posting there which I personally want back since it could have been more productively spent blowing my nose.... I do have one grip and that is: "Rubbish. Who has time for that? The Jews nailed Christ to the cross and mattered not who he was. The ONLY people I am sympathetic towards are those who bought the game and realize that it lacks polish here and there. I DON'T CARE about John Doe who bought the game, hasn't take the time to actually play or learn how to play it, but finds it necessary to hop on a board and act rude. " As a nice Jewish boy I resent that remark since it was the Romans who did it and that type of figure of speech has plagued us for a long time. I am 100% sure that SC meant nothing by it and was just frustrated with this dude he was responding to but I want to just give a reminder that it is a public forum and that people are sometimes sensitive to the language you use. In this case it was personal. Anyway you can ban me if you want or call me a jerk, but I did feel I had to make that point. Otherwise let DC have it and I am still waiting for the address that I can send my additional $20 to. Thanks, -M

For those of you who are interested in upgrading to a video card with the appropriate vertex and pixel shader capabilities for this game and quite a few others at a good price. The GeForce FX 5700 Ultra w/ 128MB of memory averages around $169.00 ($150.00 someplaces). I have used this card with UC,BCMG,KOTR,NWN,LOMAC,Max Payne, AA, Jedi Academy, and more. No graphics problems. No issues. No sweat :-) A nice midrange graphics card that is not too expensive. My 2 cents on this issue: 1) Requirements printed on UC's box 2) Requirements printed on the website 3) Vertex & Pixel shader in the requirements section on Amazon.com If you don't do even the minimal research on a PC computer game before you buy it than you are risking your $20 to $60 dollar investment. I bet the same people that don't read video game labels are religious about reading movie reviews before they buy their $15 DVD at Borders. -M

This might sound obvious but KILL ALL RED STUFF ! No seriously. I noticed that the cargo pods that destroyed cruisers leave behind seem to have goodies like OTS weapons, SALs, and other expensive hardware you can sell for serious profit. A little "bait" might work. If you disable any enemy ship and it starts emitting an SOS I think other ships that are allied with it tend to show up more often. From there you just lie in wait near the stranded ship. As a cruiser folds in from hyperspace you blast them to bits. -M

Thanks Derek. I don't know man but it's late in FL. I can't do circuits or code after midnight it comes out all buggy and ill-conceived. Get some sleep, I for one can happily wait another day for the patch.