Guest Commander Hamblin Posted October 12, 2000 Report Posted October 12, 2000 Bloody hell, can you believe what's going on in the Middle East right now? Israeli Helicopter strikes on Palestinian targets, Palestinian mobs killing two Israeli soldiers, and the peace accords now in ruins as both sides blame each other. To top it all off, the US Destroyer USS Cole suffered a terrorist attack in Yemen, and it's most likely linked to the whole Israeli/Palestinian thing! I was really excited about the prospect of seeing an end to the violence in the Middle East, and it certainly would've been a great achievement for Clinton if he could've ended his administration with peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Looks like old habits die hard, eh?
Gallion Posted October 12, 2000 Report Posted October 12, 2000 quote:...great achievement for Clinton if he could've ended his administration with peace between Israel and the Palestinians...Man you are on drugs if you think that slick willie could accomplish anything before the end of his scandalous administration. He is the worst CINC the US Military has ever had IMO and IME.The turmoil in the middle east goes back eons and will not be rectified in a few short years (8) of an incompetant fool.TTFN[This message has been edited by Gallion (edited 10-12-2000).]
Cruis.In Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 I'd just like to point out that those 2 soldiers were prisoners in a palestinian police station, reservists or not they were prisoners. And the civillians who yasa arafat says are being killed every day are the ones who did it.
ShoHashi Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 I totally agree, Gallion. Old Slick Willy is certainly the most screwed up CINC the United States military has ever had. The guy gets impeached over the Monica incident and still slides out of it. If that'd be some Colonel or General, they'd be out of a job!But, on the other hand, he is still the President and we unfortunately have to respect that...at least for a few more months! As far as the attack on the USS Cole, that is very unfortunate and I feel for the families of the deceased crewmembers. I know that whole Middle East thing has been going on for ages, but it'd be nice if those people could reconcile their differences....especially in our lifetimes. Here we are in the 21st century and the world still can't get along. Boy, I can sure ramble when I get a few adult beverages in me, eh? ------------------ Commodore ShoHashi ICV Aries, New Frontier (Rinaal) Station Commander, New Frontier Bishamon Fleet ICQ 484321 [email protected]
SpacePhish Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 I agree with both ShoHasi and Gallion. This whole middle east *crisis* is wacked. But then again it's been that way 4000-5000 years(I'm been studying that of the world in w.civ).Condolances to the famillies of those deceased aboard U.S.S Cole. Violent Terriosts suck. For some reason this whole things reminds me of that bob marley song..."War in west, war in the east, war up north, war down. Everywhere is war."
Akira Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 SpacePhish, don't even begin to try and define what's happining with a trite song by a drugged out rasta from a little island in the Atlantic.I like Marley's music, but damn I'm sick of people that use hackneyed lyrics to define real life!Gallion,Sho, I agree with both of you. Clinton made himself look good by taking credit for things others acomplished without his knowledge or help.I respect the man's position,though. Were I still in the mil. I'd follow orders like a soldier should. However, I stare down my nose with contempt for those that are hoping he can come away from the office with some "positive" legacy. I laugh openly at those that think the man has what it takes to bring peace to a part of the world that hasn't known it in all of history.I have plenty more to say on the subject. My brother-in-law's family is in the middle of the situation right now. So, before you come to this board with a message of pitty for a man with a track record like Bill Clinton, just understand that I will be posting a reply that you may not like and deffinitely won't agree with because the economy is too good and everyone now has a minimum wage job!My condolences go out to the victims of this fanaticly religious atack by a people who may never know better.[This message has been edited by Akira (edited 10-12-2000).]
Gordon Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 It's unfortunate that we (the US) still have not learned a lesson. Whenever there is trouble in the world we are automatically a target for terrorist groups. Although the news stated that there was no way to prevent this,I feel we must. The US military should be on higher security anytime there is trouble in the world. On the other front I also heard that the Palestinians are going to create havoc tomorrow, I hope not but we shall see. May the good people that have lost their live in these two incidents rest in peace. ------------------ rgordon434
Cruis.In Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 Akira, I have to take slight umbrage by your remarks. Being from a tiny little island in the atlantic myself, known as Barbados. Bob Marley did drugs yes but he was not a whacked out druggie. His songs can't define or address what's happening in the middle east but his songs were some of the most inspiring of the time and he worked towards reconciliation and to null racism.Rasta is a way of life. Marijuana is part of that religion. Just so you know(probably already aware) alchohol is more harmful than ganja. But alcohol became legal when Canada's government found how much money could be made off selling it. At one time in history law makers and enforcers sought out alcohol drinkers like they did drug-abusers of today.Only trouble is government hasn't found a way to make money off of ganja yet that's why it's still illegal.------------------ Captain Cruis In ICV St. Helens, Sygan Starstation (Sygan) CEO, Sygan Starstation Balor Fleet"You can only love or hate something you truly understand"[This message has been edited by Cruis.In (edited 10-13-2000).]
SpacePhish Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 quote: SpacePhish, don't even begin to try and define what's happining with a trite song by a drugged out rasta from a little island in the Atlantic. Jumping a too little quickly to conculsion there now aren't we.I mean if I actually said a BOB marley song could *define* what is happening I would have said so. But I did not. You know how sometimes songs just pop into your head, and in this situation it was apporiate because there is actually like a war going on. I enjoy his music, but in this situation I don't see what MUSIC have anything to do with it. I mean if everybody judged other people like you just did then we would have this middle east crisis all over the world...I also get the vibe that you think I'm NOT taking this seriously. This thing is very damn serious, people are freakin dying... quote: a drugged out rasta At least he was a happy drugged out rasta. why you mean the beatles were not drugged out? What about Henderix? The rolling stones? I like BOB's music so much better, with the exeception of Henderix. Hell, I rather listen to rap. They talk about killing and stuff *shock* what does that make them? We live in a shocking world, live with it. I don't like what's happening in the middle east, but what can I do? NOTHING. I'm sorry, this post is suppose to be about "war in the east...". Well if you are offeneded, well you offeneded me. Again, I'm sorry. quote: little island Yeah with lots poverty and violence. whatever man...[This message has been edited by SpacePhish (edited 10-13-2000).][This message has been edited by SpacePhish (edited 10-13-2000).][This message has been edited by SpacePhish (edited 10-13-2000).]
Guest aramike01 Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 I don't like the idea of a president who's never served. How in the hell can someone be CINC if they haven't served a minute? The man was a draft-dodger For the record, I don't believe in the draft and I don't think it's constitutional to force someone to fight a war that bears no threat to the US, and I've served. However, Clinton ran, rather than stood up for what's right. But that's another story.I'll tell you this: I've spent time in the middle east. Too much time, for my tastes. And, I've never met a more inherently violent people than the Arabic culture. They teach their children that killing is honorable. They have no regard for people who don't share their beliefs. They don't even consider them "people". We're capitalist animals to them. And they just as soon kill you and I as though we were those Isreali soldiers.Now that's not everyone, and I refuse to be ragged on here for these opinions. That, admittedly, is a general statement, and certainly doesn't apply to the entire Arabic culture. Their religion is beautiful, and preaches peace. A lot of the people in the region attempt to practice this, but they are thwarted by the men with the guns. For as long as I can remember, and most likely as long as I will live, there will always be war. Why?Religion. Evolution in the region appears to have stopped at the Arabic "Crusades". Very much of what's happening in Isreal reminds me of the Christian period of unrest. The securing of "Holy" sites and such is the driving force behind it. Isreal is unfairly being tasked with fixing the problem by the UN, simply because the UN considers them more civilized.The region has been suffering unrest for a good forever. Religious differences tend to drive the conflict, although some of the politics have evolved. There will never be peace in that region. Isreal should declare war and defend its people. And the UN and Bill Clinton should stay the hell out of it. Those people will be fighting forever. That's what happens when you teach your children nothing else.Btw, I stand behind Akira's remarks. Although I see what SpacePhish was talking about, I really don't think music from a man who couldn't see past his bong is appropriate to describe a situation where our countrymen are dying! CruisIn, pot may not be as bad as alcohol, but it is a mind-altering drug. If someone can't be at peace without a foreign substance, peace is not a part of their substance. quote:Only trouble is government hasn't found a way to make money off of ganja yet that's why it's still illegal.You mean they don't know how to impose a tax? Government is really good at that, you probably know. In fact, is costs the government money to make something illegal.------------------ Vice Admiral Michael Kristophers ICV-Intrepid, Spectre (Antis) Fleet Leader Spectre Fleet Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series
Steve Schacher Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 The biggest insult to the Middle East is that, even as the fighting was flaring up, Clinton was lobbying for the Nobel Peace Prize for his "efforts".Let's see what those efforts included: 1. Sending Carville to Israel to oust Netenyahu and install Barak. 2. Using sleep deprivation tactics at the Wye Plantation to force Israel into making huge concessions to Arafat. 3. Dragging King Hussein (sp?) from Jordan off of his deathbed to try to salvage Clinton's photo-op at Wye. 4. Bringing Chelsea to the inner-most policy negotiations so she can see what daddy does.Clintons peace efforts ultimately failed because neither side trusted his motives. They suspected he was legacy-building instead of doing what was best for the Middle East. Even now, the USA's position on the issue is more influenced by Hillary's New York Senate campaign than by what's best for the region.
Cruis.In Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 Spacefish, my sentiments exactly. In one foul sentence a dead mans good honest life was tarnished.------------------ Captain Cruis In ICV St. Helens, Sygan Starstation (Sygan) CEO, Sygan Starstation Balor Fleet"You can only love or hate something you truly understand"
Guest aramike01 Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 Hamblin, I tire of you reading only a portion of the post and commenting on it. Case in point, quote:As a matter of fact, I saw a report on CNN which showed a school where Palestinian and Israeli kids were taught not to hate one another, and to respect each other's religious beliefs, etc.Did I not say the following? quote:That, admittedly, is a general statement, and certainly doesn't apply to the entire Arabic culture. Their religion is beautiful, and preaches peace. A lot of the people in the region attempt to practice this, but they are thwarted by the men with the guns.Of course, you don't seem to ever be wrong, so I'll let that speak for itself.Onto another issue: quote:Coming down a little harsh on him JUST because he said that the situation reminded him of a song? Just where the hell did he try to "define what's happening" with the song? And then there's this: quote:Akira, Gallion, I didn't actually post up this topic with the idea of getting into an argument over whether or not Clinton is a good president to the US. How can you propose to allow one expression and not another? This forum does have moderators... (If anyone has a problem with a discussion, you should send email to [email protected] - that's what that address is there for, to avoid disruptions.) quote:The rest of the world, not just the Middle East, will most likely condemn Israel for declaring war on the Palestinians, who would not stand a snowballs chance in hell against the Israeli war machine.No kidding. That's why I said that if that happens, I hope Clinton and the UN stays the hell out of it. There was a time when if one nation was responsible for killing your people, you'd retaliate in order to stop the violence. Now, it appears to have come to a pleading effort.Secondly, the UN seems more like a shark with no teeth than anything else. They never take a strong stance against a nation unless human rights are violated. The Isreali human rights are being violated, and they have the capability to deal with it. And, if Iraq were to ever get involved, you can bet your ass and the chair it's on that nations would start taking sides (many would align with Isreal, Russia and Co. would align with Iraq, but won't do anything because do not have the resources).As for Arafat, his people are rather defiant towards him. Most of his people believe that Isreali people should die, rather than any peace, whereas Arafat has at least sat at the discussion table.Btw, if this discussion doesn't clear its air, this thread will mysteriously disappear.Oh yeah, and relax about Akira's comments, everyone. I don't think he was coming down on SpacePhish at all. If I read him correctly, he was just stating his views on the music. Views which I agree with. If your opinions are valid and his aren't, then that makes this worthless discussion.------------------ Vice Admiral Michael Kristophers ICV-Intrepid, Spectre (Antis) Fleet Leader Spectre Fleet Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series[This message has been edited by aramike01 (edited 10-13-2000).]
Eclipse Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 Personally, I dislike Clinton. I won't get into all of the reason,but several have already been mentioned. I feel for the los of the US sailors aboard the Cole.------------------ Commodore Kyle Antilles ICV-Eclipse, Destiny Starstation (Nevuela) Commanding Officer, Destiny Spectre Fleet"You can only love or hate something you truly understand"
Steve Schacher Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 I heard some speculation on the radio yesterday that the reason that the Cole was in port was that the Clinton Pentagon has eliminated all the refueling ships, so the big ships have to come into port now instead of refueling out at sea. Is this true?As for the larger issue, I've learned in the last eight years not to trust the initial statements from the White House (or anyone else). I have to wait a few days/weeks for the actual facts to emerge.The crisis began when the PLO accused Sharon of inciting the Palestinians by showing up at the Temple Mount. Initially, people were echoing this line, but then the facts emerged:1. The Temple Mount is the third holiest Muslim site, but it is THE holiest Jewish site.2. Sharon had the consent of his government and the PLO Security Chief to go. Nobody anticipated the riots.3. The Temple Mount is in Israeli territory and Sharon had a right to go. Sometimes, having the right to do something is reason enough to do it. You know the saying, If you don't use it, you lose it.4. Israel made incredible concessions to the PLO that were unthinkable even one year ago. Instead of holding items in their back pockets and using them as bargaining chips, Barak dropped the whole wad on the table and said take it.5. Arafat, being offered everything he wanted, still refused. This boggled the minds of everyone. What more could they possibly want? It turns out to be the Temple Mount. The question is why?6. Public opinion turns against Arafat because he turned down a sweet deal.7. In response, Arafat declares a general strike and closes all the businesses and schools. This forces all the people out into the streets with nothing to do.8. He then replays riots from eight years ago on the state-controlled television and plays military music on the radio. This incites the people.9. People start throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers who fire rubber bullets back. Riots start. Israeli defense stiffens. People are killed. Emotions flare. Violence escalates and spreads.10. ??? [This message has been edited by Steve Schacher (edited 10-13-2000).]
Guest aramike01 Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 Steve just pointed out something that I've forgot to add (excuse me, I was pissed ) : the common denominator here is the Arabic nations. Surely you don't think that Isreal attacked the Cole, now do you?Oh, and in all fairness, Arafat didn't get everything that he wanted. He wanted all territories taken from him a few years back, returned. But, it was a SWEET deal, as Steve said.Good post!------------------ Vice Admiral Michael Kristophers ICV-Intrepid, Spectre (Antis) Fleet Leader Spectre Fleet Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series
Rattler Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 quote:I heard some speculation on the radio yesterday that the reason that the Cole was in port was that the Clinton Pentagon has eliminated all the refueling ships, so the big ships have to come into port now instead of refueling out at sea. Is this true? As far as I know, The navy still uses AFS/AFO Ships. That's one of the most important links in the chain of the US Navy's ability to perform it's designated mission. That mission is to be able to conduct Immediate and Sustained Opperations anywhere around the world with the follow on mission to remain in that AO for an indefinite period of time. It can't be done without the ability to Underway Replenish (UnRep). Plain and Simple. Being a veteran of a few trips through those particular waters, I can almost assuredly speculate that the USS Cole was on port of call In Yemmen, prior to transitting the Straights of Hormuz. Once into the Straights (Very Shallow and Narrow Passage), The Gulf opens up quite a bit, but remains damned shallow. The AO/AFS Ships, when fully loaded out, draw a tremendous draft. This is detrimental to operations in the Gulf. Any opperations that they might conduct would have to be limited to the main shipping channels and would place both the AFS/AO and the Receiving Ship in jeoprady. That's why Most Larger Ships (The Cole is quite small in this list) normally dock pierside and take on fuel before they go in. Once inside the Gulf, there are a couple of places to get gas again from pierside and give the crew a much needed rest as well.Rattler, Retired Chief Warrant Officer BTW, Gulf War Vet and multiple trip taker to Hormuz
Guest aramike01 Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 Have you ever been to the mid-east? If you have, then I'll listen. quote: And responding to it. Yes, you said people in the area practice peace, but that was because you were saying that your paragraph about the Arabs being "bloodthirsty killers" or whatever, was something of a generalisation.You then go on to say that they teach their children nothing but killing.Note the part in bold. Is it beyond you to realize that was another generalization. No contradiction here. Do you not hear the parents talking about their children growing to fight the Isrealis? Are you not paying attention? Do you know anything about world politics or is your argument soley upon your ideology? quote:I didn't say that I wasn't allowing it, I was saying I didn't start this topic up with the purpose of discussing whether or not Bill Clinton was a good President of the United States, simply because I would not be qualified to get involved in such a debate seeing as I AM NOT A UNITED STATES CITIZEN!First off, then why the hell do you see it as Clinton's responsibility? (I know you're going to say, "I didn't say that." So better yet, why not your leaders? Secondly, they were calling him a bad president to emphasise their belief that he is unable to bring peace to the mid east. Are you not paying attention? quote:But, then again 'capability to deal with it', could mean any number of things, so please, elaborate a bit.What is so hard to understand about that? What number of things could that mean? quote:And, before you go accusing me of hypocrisy, let me quote you the two parts of my little rant against Akira on the whole Bob Marley thing which explains my position:In stating those words you become guilty of hypocracy. Do you think I've spent 8 years of my life in college studying world politics, philosophy, and literature to be a complete literal idiot?But of course, you're never wrong...Also, in all fairness, you may be correct about what Akira said. Then, you may not be. Your analogy works for you, but it could also be constued as if there were two women talking and one touches on a sensitive issue. Like a "don't get me started" phrase. But what is the point of dragging it out? Especially when you say quote:Maybe if you'd stop contributing to the current atmosphere as it is, things wouldn't be so tense.Hypocritical.If you want a debate, even a heated one, I'm game. I've been debating since middle-school, and it's not only a habit - it's an addiction. However, when it comes to moderating this board, Derek has selected certain people to do it (the CAT crew). While this community has always policed itself, it doesn't help when you escalate the situation. And quoting people while missing certain major points of the entire context, ain't gonna happen. If you are going to only help escalate a problem, you won't be posting. It is that simple. One more thing: quote:I did not ever say, or imply...It seems as though you have a track record of saying things that people take the wrong way. Ever stop to think that it may be your fault? (Although you'll probably ignore that, 'cause that is not possible.)So I may have been wrong about Akira's post. I dunno, that's for him to answer. However, this is getting out of hand, and it stops here. Now, to discuss the issue:What I was saying about what I think is best (that phrase equals, what my ideology stands for), and that being war, is not just a revenge tactic. Revenge usually occurs when immediate causes cease to exist. However, continued violence would be an immediate cause to fight back. That is called defense. If someone threatens you, and you can't talk that entity down, you must eliminate it. ------------------ Vice Admiral Michael Kristophers ICV-Intrepid, Spectre (Antis) Fleet Leader Spectre Fleet Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series[This message has been edited by aramike01 (edited 10-13-2000).]
Cruis.In Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 I suppose because you went to the middle-east you are now the resident expert.I don't know the REAL harshness of reality. But I do know enough about it, to know that I never want to know it all.------------------ Captain Cruis In ICV St. Helens, Sygan Starstation (Sygan) CEO, Sygan Starstation Balor Fleet"You can only love or hate something you truly understand"
GREG MILLER Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 Well, I don't want to get started on Slick Willy so all I will say is I feel for the Families of the victims of the USS Cole. And if you want at least 4 more years of the Clinton Military, then vote for Al Gore.'Nuff Said! ------------------ Commander Greg Miller GCV - Sark, Orion Starstation (CENTRIS) Fleet XO, Wing Leader, Tsunami Battle Group www.orion-hq.fsnet.co.uk'Here cometh the storm!'
Guest aramike01 Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 quote:I suppose because you went to the middle-east you are now the resident expert.There are certain things that I wouldn't want to be an expert on, but for the record, I've spent over 3 years between those hot-spots and Cairo. 3 years that I care not to repeat.You think you've seen close-minded? Heh, not until you profess to follow a different religion in that unstable region. Hell, even a different variant of the same religion. Arabic cultures for the most part are what we would call fanatical about religion. It must be noted, however, that they would consider us lacking in our religious devotions. It's all a matter of point-of-view. In that region, it's not uncommon to see a single man or woman (note: women are often at the mercy of men) go to one of their churches for prayer more than 5 times a day. Whereas most of us complain about going to a church once a week.Their religions all preach of peace but the different variants can't seem to figure out how. Also, it seems that the only thing they notice in the religious writings is the honor of fighting and dying for, in most cases, Allah. And they find that the way to do it is to enforce their beliefs upon those with others, and to kill them if the others don't follow. That ideology is preached madly in many mid-east churches, although most of it is simply rhetoric about someday acheiving "glory".You see, the people in that region are not stupid, either. Their leaders understand politics well, and that's why you haven't a all-out war. Also, many leaders use religion to manipulate their people to do pretty much whatever they want them to do. Arafat is seeing the backfire of this now, with increasing levels of dissension amongst his people. He's promoted violence for years, and now his leaning to peace makes him look like the traitor to his people. That is probably the reason he won't deal - a leader without support of the people is not a leader at all. He would lose power.It also should be noted that about 65% of the world's known terrorist organizations have origins in the middle east. More than 75% have ties to organizations there. In fact, out of the 5 largest terrorist organizations in the world, only the IRA is from outside of the region. And, as of 6 years ago, the IRA was in disarray, so I have no clue who's the kingpin now.Any more questions?------------------ Vice Admiral Michael Kristophers ICV-Intrepid, Spectre (Antis) Fleet Leader Spectre Fleet Official Tester, Battlecruiser Series [This message has been edited by aramike01 (edited 10-13-2000).]
SpacePhish Posted October 13, 2000 Report Posted October 13, 2000 Everybody CHILL OUT! Respect each other's POVs. We are on the same team you know! BC3K baby! See ya, I'm going out for some fresh air. Nobody is wrong! Respect that...
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