Mandatory Military enlistment

[Guest $iLk]

[aramike]

[Menchise]

Disclaimer: I haven't read this whole thread (I stopped about halfway down the second page since it was starting to get repetitive), so forgive me if I am repeating the words of another.

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BTW, get you a copy of the constitution & the declaration of independance, and compare how many times you see the word Republic, as compared to the word or words Democracy, Democratic

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The first three words of the preamble of the constitution: "We, the people". End of discussion.

The US Republic is just one form of Representative Democracy. It is also known as a Liberal Democracy, drawing a large portion of its origins from the Two Treatises of Government written by John Locke.

[Guest]

This has gotten rather fascinating, I must admit.

$iLk and I agree Aramike that Slavery was an issue, but it was NOT the main issue that caused the war. That is a myth, and continues to be stated by historians as fact, when in fact it is not.

Slavery was the issue that pushed it into civil war, but had it been the ONLY issue, the war would never have been fought. It was again, A MINOR issue, it was NEVER the main issue for the majority of the southern states, nor for the states that remained in the Union that were slve states.

As we stated before, a MAJORITY of slaves were held by Northern states that remained within the union. If the war had been ALL about slavery, those states would have joined the Confederacy as well.

Maryland, as a matter of fact would have joined the confederacy, but Lincoln unlawfully arrested the governor and had him thrown in jail, WITHOUT due process. He did this as well, many more times with justices, congressman and state representatives.

Slavery was only the issue that pushed the states into finally giving up on the federal Government and calling for secession. It was the straw that broke the camels back.

I never said that slavery was not an issue, but I stand by the fact that it was a minor issue. The fuse for the war had already been lit, throught the ignoring of states rights by the federal government.

We have explained these things, and explained them, and you have chosen to continue on the tact that slavery was the MAIN issue. That is fine I suppose, but you are wrong. I will not debate it any more. I know for a fact that history will bear this out at some time in the future, after lincoln is brought down to the tyrant that he actually was and not the hero everyone thinks he is today.

Bottom line, The MAJOR ISSUE, was states rights, slavery was a part of that main issue, but it was the fuse that finally blew it up. And one more time, IF slavery had been the main issue of the war, then ALL slaveholding states would have joined the confederacy, but because a majority of slaves were actually held in the north, this should tell you that indeed, slavery was NOT the main issue.

[Guest $iLk]

[aramike]

[Charles Lindsey]

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the issue is finding how many times our country is referred to as a Republic,

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None

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and how many times it is referred to as anything else - INCLUDING representative democracy.

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None

[Guest $iLk]

Article 4 section 4

"Section. 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, "

[Guest $iLk]

Aramike, I apoligize for misunderstanding your side of the issue. My intention is to prevent any untruths, half truths, or misrepresentation of the history of the Confederacy.

I have a friend visiting me tommorow from the Sons of Confederate Veterans who is interested in this debate. He wants me to voice some historical facts and analysis to give credence to the position that the Civil War was not fought over slavery, and in essence wasn't about slavery.

My point all along has been over the misunderstanding that you believed that this was a war to free the slaves, or to keeps slaves.

My point is that if the Confederacy wanted to keep slaves, they should have stayed in the Union where slavery was legal.

The parts of your argument that I felt at odds with were those that pointed fingers at the South. I responded with accusations against the North. Both sides were at fault, but tommorow I am going to list some books, authors, and facts and quotes from the Civil War in order to better lay out my position.

I have been mostly relying on my knowledge of the issue and will post correlating evidence tommorow, along with reference materials.

Sometimes my arguments get out of hand, and the Civil War is one of my hot spots, and I felt that you had rubbed me the wrong way with your opinions about it. So I'm going to post my evidence, have my say tommorow. If you want to debate my evidence tommorow, that's fine. The point is always clear that our opinions are equally worthless, but these debates encourage thinking and that is good.

For now I bid you goodnight - had to go Christmas shopping so I wasn't online most of the day.

[Charles Lindsey]

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Article 4 section 4

"Section. 4.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a

Republican

Form of Government, "

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Was wondering when you'd bite. That doesn't say we are a republic. It says every State shall have (or be guaranteed) a republican form of gov't.

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Preamble: We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect

Union

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I know, I know, it's a technicality. But you specifically asked for how many times the US was referred to as a Republic. It isn't. Not once.

By definition we are a republic. By definiton we are also a democracy. We are also a union. And a confederacy if you really want to go that far back.

We are many things. But one thing is for sure; it really doesn't matter what we call ourselves. We are the United States of America.

Gotcha! Hope ya don't mind me picking at you.

[Guest $iLk]

Not at all Charles. I'm not even going to bother arguing over the technicality. At least it doesn't say every state in this Union shall be guaranteed a Democratic form of government.

[aramike]

[Charles Lindsey]

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Not at all Charles. I'm not even going to bother arguing over the technicality.

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Good. 'Cause I really don't know how well I would have fared.

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At least it doesn't say every state in this Union shall be guaranteed a Democratic form of government.

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True that.

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In fact, to get technical, the Civil War was actually fought over the secession of states.

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Would you beleive me if I said I had almost thrown that into my "technicality" post above?

I almost did but didn't want to stir the pot or the kettle.

[aramike]

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Would you beleive me if I said I had almost thrown that into my "technicality" post above?

I almost did but didn't want to stir the pot or the kettle.

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LOL! Charles, I believe it.

[Guest]

Well,

after looking at all these new posts, I must say that technically(thanks Charles ) we actually agree. It is just a matter of degrees!!

I am looking forward to seeing what $iLk comes up with tomorrow, and his friends opinion should be VERY interesting.

[Kevin Trotter]

At the risk of sounding like a dullard , please give this topic it's well deserved burial. Both

Linclon and Jeff Davis lie molding in thier graves. You are all clearly intelligent people with strong opinions and apparently a lot of free time. I suggest you use some of it at a strip club or Dave and Buster's or working at a shelter

or anywhere but at your keyboards hurling barbs at each other. As a proud black LIBERAL ,I see scholarly merit in each of your arguments as well

as room for debate. However what I have just read has surpassed the bounds of debate. Remember , we

are all different and have varying political beliefs but this game and this community is whay draws and keeps us together. Just a thought.

[Guest $iLk]

Those who disregard history are doomed to repeat it. Or something to that effect.

[Guest $iLk]

Alright, my friend has arrived and we are currently reading over different areas of the debate, and he is going to check for historical and factual accuracy. With each fact I will post the reference material. Stand by for further information.

[aramike]

Silk, due to other forum issues I can't carry on any debate. We will pick this up at a later time though.

[Guest $iLk]

Here's just some basic questions and facts that he wanted to make sure everyone was aware of.

Were only slave holding states willing to join the Confederacy, and were only slave holding states supportive of the decision to secede?

FACT #1 : April 29, 1861, Henry C. Hopper initiated the separation of 18 southern counties of Illinios to join the Confederacy.

FACT #2 : In 1861 the territory of Arizona, a non-slave holding territory voted to secede with the Confederacy.

FACT #3 : In 1861 the city of New York voted to secede and join the Confederacy and was placed under Martial law for the duration of the war.

-SCV publication Vol 6, 2000 Confederate Veteran.

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Was the war of the 1860's fought over the issue of slavery?

FACT #1: "To Alexander H. Stevens of Georgia, Dec 22, 1860 Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would directly or indirectly interfere with their slaves, or with them about their slaves? If they do I wish to assure you as once a friend ,and still, I hope, not an enemy that there is no cause for such fears.

FACT #2 : On the 4th of March 1861 Lincoln's innaugural address as quoted above in one of my earlier posts. He had no intention of freeing slaves.

FACT #3 : 1862, the Republicans who wanted him to free slaves

"Gentlemen I can't do it but I'll tell you what I can do. I can resign in favor of Mr. Hamlin, perhaps Mr. Hamlin could do it."

- all from Abraham Lincoln. In addition to my post above.

Quote from a Frenchman: In a visit to the USA, Alexis de Tocqueville(A frenchman) "The prejudice of the race appears to be stronger in the states who have abolished slavery than in the states slavery still exists."

FACT #4: New Jersey passed a law forbidding free blacks from settling in their state.

FACT #5: Massachussettes passed a law requiring flogging of blacks who resided in the state for more than two months.

FACT #6: 1853 Indiana State Constitution : "No Negro shall come into or settle in the state"

FACT #7: Illinois law, 1853 : To prevent immigration of free negroes into this state

FACT #8: Oregon's 1857 Constitution : "No free negro not residing in this state at time of adoption shall reside in this state."

FACT #9: Abraham Lincoln to Congress Dec 1862 : "Why should emancipation send free people North? And cannot the North decide for itself whether to recieve them?"

FACT #10: New Jersey banned black voting in 1807

FACT #11: Connecticut did so in 1814

FACT #12: Rhode Island did so in 1822

FACT #13: Pennsylvania did so in 1838

FACT #14: During the war Gen John A Dix, US Army proposed to remove escaped slaves from fortress Monroe to Massachussettes. The governor of the state, an abolitionist, stated "The Northern states are of all places the worst possible to select for an asylum to negroes".

FACT #15: Ohio in 1867 banned Negro Voting.

FACT #16: October 5th 1778 - Virginia attempts to ban slave importation.

-The South was Right - by James and Walker Kennedy

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Did the southern armies fight to preserve slavery?

Robert E. Lee felt that the best men in the south opposed slavery and would welcome it to be over. Only 1 in 15 Southern whites owned slaves. (This does not include freed blacks who owned slaves) Roughly there were 350,000 white slave owners in the Confederacy, but there were 600,000 soldiers in the army. Consider the 20 Negro Act exempted all people in charge of 20 or more slaves from military service.

Daniel Webster once declared the leading spirits of the south found slavery to be "an evil, a blight, a scourge, and a curse". THis included the likes of Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Patrick Henry, John Randolph, and George Mason.

80% of all Confederate Military Personnel were non-slave owners.

Prominent Leaders who did NOT own slaves

Gen Robert E. Lee CSA

Gen Joseph Johston CSA

Gen AP HILL CSA

Gen Fitzhugh Lee CSA

Gen J.E.B. Stuart

Gen NB Forest was personally guarded by 40 armed blacks

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Who imported the slaves from Africa?

Between 1755 to 1766 23,000 Africans were imported to Massachussettes.

1787 Rhode Island joins the slave trade.

1808 Congress declares slave importation illegal.

1820 Congress declares slave trade piracy because 40,000 Africans were smuggled into the country each year.

1861 President Lincoln writes to Congress "5 vessels, being fitted out for the slave trade, have been siezed and condemned" - they were Union vessels chartered out of New York and Boston.

Emancipation Proclamation: Kentucky, Maryland Missouri and Delaware, 4 states that never left the Union, yet were slaveholders were exempt from the Emancipation proclamation including the New state of West Virginia, and all territories held by the Union Military on Jan 1st 1863, 2 years after hostilities began.

In April 21st 1861, the USS Saratoga captures the Nightingale, with 900 slaves aboard. The slaver was owned, manned, and equipped in Boston. This was the last slaver captured by an American warship, North or South. The Captain of the Saratoga resigned to fight for the Confederate States Navy.

- The Gray book - Published by SCV

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An abolitionist's view of state's rights.

1854 William Lloyd Garrison celebrated the 4th of July by burning a copy of the US Constitution and declared it an agreement with Hell. - He was the leading abolitionist in the USA.

Most of these (except the ones otherwise credited) can be found in the book:

- Facts the Historians Leave Out : John S. Tilley

Statistics on the slave trade:

Out of 202 slavers entering Charleston South Carolina, 1796 - 1799 : 91 were English, 88 were from the USA, 10 were French, and 13 were from the South.

Senator Smith of North Carolina, to the Congress in 1819 : "Our Northern States are not afraid to furnish the Southern States with Africans.

-The Gray book - SCV

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Much of this is new information that reinforces what we have agreed on, as well as interesting facts about the true positions of North and South during the period before and after the Civil War.

We are going to take a break and come back with the Constitutional arguments and aspect of secession.

There's more but we are fixing to take a break, I'll edit my post for any relevant NEW information.

[Menchise]

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"We the people" symbolizes the people of the United States. If this were written by a Russian, "We the people" could just as easily mean the people of the Soviet Union. Once again that's not the issue - the issue is finding how many times our country is referred to as a Republic, and how many times it is referred to as anything else - INCLUDING representative democracy.

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The US Republic IS a Representative Democracy. The people's vote determines the make up of the Congress, which is an important check on Executive power. Even though the popular vote doesn't directly determine who controls the Executive, the Executive cannot pass legislation without the support of the Congress. Thus, the people's elected representatives ultimately decide what becomes law, among other things. Therefore, the fact that the words "Representative Democracy" are not mentioned in the Constitution is irrelevant, because that is exactly what the US Republic is.

[ 12-16-2001: Message edited by: Menchise ]

[Guest $iLk]

Thoughts on secession:

Horace Greely: "If the Declaration of Independance justified the secession of 3 million colonists in 1776, why did it not justify the secession of 5 million southerners from the Union in 1861."

How many states has the United States helped to secede from Russia and other nations since 1861?

The act of forming the Federal government was, as Rawle stated "the act of many independant states", and "those who have the power to make, have the power to unmake".

"To deny this right [secession from the Union] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all our political systems are founded, which is, that the people have in all cases, a right to determine how they will be governed."

According to Rawle, if a majority of the people of a state peacefully and deliberately "resolve to relinquish the republican form of government, they ceased to be members of the Union." But if a faction or a small group of people takes control of a State by violence and thereby destroys Republican government, at that time "the Union is bound to employ its power to prevent it." The only pretext for Federal intervention in the affairs of a State is when the will of the majority of established electors has been usurped.

- All this comes from William Rawle, LL. D 1825. This is in the book A view of the Constitution by William Rawle, published in 1825 Secession as Taught at West Point.

These were constitutional views taught at West Point. Referenced in The Centennial of the United States Military Academy at West Point,

i.e. secession was taught to be Constitutional and legal at West Point, so long as it was carried out by the will of a majority of that state.

This was also written 35 years BEFORE the Civil War. William Rawle's book was used as a textbook between 1825 and 1832.

This textbook was superceded by Kent's Commentaries on the American Law in which Kent agreed and expanded on Rawle's position. Kent's position included international law and believed in the State's Rights theory of Republican government. "... the state governments would clearly retain all those rights of sovereignty which they had before the adoption of the Constitution... and which were not by that constitution EXCLUSIVELY DELEGATED TO THE UNION. The maintenance of the Union was to be predicated upon mutual respect among the States, and not by brute force. According to Mr. Kent, the manner by which the Union was to be maintained was "... for the concurrence and good will of all parts, the stabilitiy of the whole depends." i.e. The Concurrence and Good Will, not bayonets would hold the Union together.

His teachings contuinued in use at West point until 1880. He was superceded by Cooley's The General Principles of Constitutional Law in the United States in 1886. Cooley advocated government by centralized power. It needs to be pointed out that only after the defeat of the south did the teachings of Cooley become the general rule.

St. George Tucker in 1803 states : "...the union is in fact, as well as in theory, an association of states, or, a confederacy...[Each state] is still a perfect state, still sovereign, still independant, and still capable, should the occasion require, to resume the exercise of it's functions as such, in the most unlimited extent."

Madison in The Federalist No. 39 explains how the new government would be a mixture of a Federal, National, and Confederation. Madison clearly states that "Each State... is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others... bond by its own voluntary act."

-A view of the constitution by William Rale, LL. D 1825

I suggest reading it if you would like to learn about the view of the Constitution around the beginning of the talk of State's Rights.

Inside this book (which I hadn't read previously) Rawle notes that while each state is part of the Union, they must abide by it's rules, but if the sever themselves from the provisions of the Constitution (i.e. secede), it is natural that they would no longer be bound by the provisions of such.

I would venture to say that his writings, having been used as a text book in our greatest military academy at west point, 35 years BEFORE the Civil War, are worth quite a bit more than any contributing authors of today.

So what do you guys think?