LostInSpace Posted October 4, 2004 Report Posted October 4, 2004 OMFG!!!! SOUTH PORTLAND, Maine (AP) -- The widow of Martin Luther King Jr. said the right to vote should be open to everyone in a democracy, including those who have been convicted of crimes. If this ever happens, I may just join street in belgium!
Kalshion Posted October 4, 2004 Report Posted October 4, 2004 I hate to say this, but I agree with Lost here There is NO way a criminal should be given the right to Vote If they commit a crime, then there right's should be REVOKED. That INCLUD'S there citizenship and if they get back out into the public they should WORK to get that all back We have criminal's now-a-days that get sent to jail, then get out and commit a crime, go back get out, commit another crime We can thank our justice system for those. And Lawyers My take If a lawyers bails a guy out, and he commit's another crime. Then not only should THAT lawyer be prosecuted, but so should the judge as well for ALLOWING the guy to go free after looking at all the evidence
y2kewel Posted October 4, 2004 Report Posted October 4, 2004 I have to disagree with Lost here. To persecute a person after his price to society has been paid is utterly wrong. Revoking the rights of an individual robs them of certain opportunities to prove to themselves and society as a whole, that they are becoming, or have what it takes to become a productive member of society. Many criminals have worked hard to become very successful, honest and productive people. But not being allowed to vote has, in a sense, made them victims to the whims of those around them by taking away the ability to participate in processes that can and will affect their lives. If the gas company, or the electric company, or any other organization in the US isn't allowed to coerce you into paying them for the rest of your life for an overdue bill after youÔÇÖve settled it, regardless of weather or not you continue using their services. Then the government, state or federal, shouldnÔÇÖt be allowed to either.
Grizzle Posted October 4, 2004 Report Posted October 4, 2004 Thanks Nomad, for saving me the trouble of pointing that out. One could define a criminal as anyone breaking the law, but the law breaks crimes down into further categories such as felonies and misdemeanors. Generally speaking a person is stripped of their right to vote if they are a convicted felon (murder, theft, drug trafficking etc...), since felonies are considered the worst of crimes. DUI is not a felony, but it is a "crime".
Guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Posted October 4, 2004 First off, felons are not allowed to vote, those that have murdered, bank robbery etc. I believe that there needs to be a test before people are allowed to vote. I think there should be a few other things as well before a person is allowed the right to vote, but the test is the MOST important as far as I am concerned. THe test would consist of 5-10 questions, regarding who is the current officeholder os certain offices within that persons district as well as state and federal offices. If a person is going to vote, but they DO NOT know who the current officeholders are, in other words whom they voted for last time, they should not be allowed to vote. I also believe that ANY person getting handout from ANY government institution, welfare, medicare, etc, NOT earned government checks, but GIVEN government checks, should also NOT be allowed to vote. If you are recieving free money from the government, then you are recused from voting until you are no longer recieving that handout.
Guest Shingen Posted October 4, 2004 Report Posted October 4, 2004 I think America has entirely too many laws!! A person who smokes/sells a joint is not the same as a person who commits murder, rape or arson. I think that voting rights should be based on inherent intelligence and basic comprehension! Stupid people SHOULD NOT be allowed to vote!
Grizzle Posted October 4, 2004 Report Posted October 4, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Jaguar: First off, felons are not allowed to vote, those that have murdered, bank robbery etc. I believe that there needs to be a test before people are allowed to vote. I think there should be a few other things as well before a person is allowed the right to vote, but the test is the MOST important as far as I am concerned. THe test would consist of 5-10 questions, regarding who is the current officeholder os certain offices within that persons district as well as state and federal offices. If a person is going to vote, but they DO NOT know who the current officeholders are, in other words whom they voted for last time, they should not be allowed to vote. I also believe that ANY person getting handout from ANY government institution, welfare, medicare, etc, NOT earned government checks, but GIVEN government checks, should also NOT be allowed to vote. If you are recieving free money from the government, then you are recused from voting until you are no longer recieving that handout. That is the most un-Democratic thing I've ever heard. I'm speechless...
Grizzle Posted October 4, 2004 Report Posted October 4, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Shingen: I think America has entirely too many laws!! A person who smokes/sells a joint is not the same as a person who commits murder, rape or arson. I think that voting rights should be based on inherent intelligence and basic comprehension! Stupid people SHOULD NOT be allowed to vote! Ah Shingen, so you like a little doobie now and then huh? The voter rights are just fine the way they are now. Though there is something to be considered for letting reformed felons get their rights back.
Guest Posted October 4, 2004 Report Posted October 4, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Grizzle: That is the most un-Democratic thing I've ever heard. I'm speechless... That's a first. We are NOT a Democracy, we are a Republic, no matter how many people say otherwise. That is the problem, we are turning into a Democracy, and that is what will destroy us.
Grizzle Posted October 4, 2004 Report Posted October 4, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Jaguar: That's a first. ROFL! Yes, we are a Democratic Republic and as such every person should be able to participate in the democracy (those of the present topic at hand excluded), that's kind of what Democracy is all about no?
Wolferz Posted October 5, 2004 Report Posted October 5, 2004 It's interesting to note the attitudes in this thread and it seems like some are of the dictatorial persuasion. Are we not all human beings in this country???? Are we not free to persue our own dreams anymore because we might have made a mistake in our judgement? We all make mistakes and having a governmental system that severely punishes those mistakes to the point of creating habitual criminals is wrong. What would you do if all of a sudden you found yourself physically disabled and unable to earn a living and discovered that a hardhearted government couldn't care less if you starved to death? That seems to be the kind of government that you want,Jaguar. Look back into your history books my friend. It's already been tried and ended with alot of chaos and death. Today, our government doles out billions of dollars, that were stripped from every hard working American and they give the money to all their rich corporate buddies who damned sure don't need it. They also provide stipends to formerly honest people who are physically unable to work. Think about it long and hard, Jaguar. What would happen if Social Security was dismantled and the millions of Americans who depend on it to live, suddenly discovered that they can no longer buy food or pay their light bills? The answer is a simple one. You would be creating millions of new criminals out of honest people. Creating millions of desperate people with nothing left to lose, would be a greater threat than every ICBM in the communist's arsenals. Let us hope that compassion for our own people remains our mainstay attitude through the coming years and that we remain united in the cause of human rights and freedom. I feel that anyone who has made a mistake and paid for it through incarceration should be given back every freedom that was theirs prior to being convicted. But, Those who remain housed in a prison, have no rights or freedoms whatsoever, including the right to vote. They don't deserve an absentee ballot or a special blue bus trip to the polls. Our lawmakers continue to impose laws and regulations that are designed for one purpose. To make criminals out of the honest and strip away everything that our forefathers bled to give us. FREEDOM
Guest Posted October 5, 2004 Report Posted October 5, 2004 Wolferz, this is how it starts. SSI is in fact unconstitutional, so is welfare, so are a lot of other things where the government takes your and my money and gives it to someone else in the name of compassion. It is not the federal governments job, if the states wish to do it, that is entirely different, but the federal government should NOT be involved in ANY of it. If a person is disabled or injured and is unable to work, then it is the states job to show compassion and help that person, it is the counties job, or the local cities and communities job, NOT the federal government. The federal government has 2 main constitutional duties, the defense of the country, and foreign affairs. That's it. It was NEVER authorized by the constitution to play Robin Hood with ANYONE, including corporations, or the poor, or the old, or anyone. This is why the system is self destructing, because if it had held to the constitution, we would have hardly ANY federal taxes whatsoever, let alone the federal government taking from the states and then giving it back. It's total insanity, and in the end will collapse from it's own weight.
Kalshion Posted October 5, 2004 Report Posted October 5, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Shingen: I think America has entirely too many laws!! If we'd just re-enforce our current law's then we wouldn't have this problem... Or Get rid of all the lawyers who are just ITCHING to SUE someone for the smallest thing
Guest Shingen Posted October 5, 2004 Report Posted October 5, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Grizzle: Originally posted by Shingen: Ah Shingen, so you like a little doobie now and then huh? The voter rights are just fine the way they are now. Though there is something to be considered for letting reformed felons get their rights back. In fact, there ain't a goddamn thing wrong with using cannabis. It's been one of the back-bones of human civilization for going on 5000 years (up till the 1920s, when US oil companies lobbied to outlaw it). However, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. This is the main reason I really don't want Bush to be re-elected. But, since Kerry and Bush are basically cut from the same cloth, I'd rather just not have either of them in power. What really needs to be done, is the abolishment of the two party system all together! [ 10-05-2004, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Shingen ]
LostInSpace Posted October 5, 2004 Author Report Posted October 5, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Shingen: What really needs to be done, is the abolishment of the two party system all together! Well there are plenty of others but they are just squashed by the two more popular ones. BTW: As for cannibis, I agree with you but I don't think anyone who smokes it on a regular basis can think straight and those under the influence of THC show major lack of judgement as those who drink. The difference between drinking and THC is that the later stays in your system a hell of a lot longer than alcohol. Glad to see this discussion taking off. So far it's been really good.
Guest Shingen Posted October 5, 2004 Report Posted October 5, 2004 quote:Originally posted by LostInSpace: BTW: As for cannibis, I agree with you but I don't think anyone who smokes it on a regular basis can think straight and those under the influence of THC show major lack of judgement as those who drink. Sorry Lost, but I am going to have to strongly disagree on this point. But, then again, just like everything else, certain people have a stronger, basic constitution then others.
LostInSpace Posted October 5, 2004 Author Report Posted October 5, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Shingen: certain people have a stronger, basic constitution then others. Umm, we both live in the united states how can your constitution be any stronger or weaker than mine we have the same one. Just kidding couldn't resist that one. Anyway, I am going to defer to an older argument. Would you rather have a doctor that smoked cannibis or one that didn't (both with the same qualifications) to operate on you if you ever needed an operation?
Guest Shingen Posted October 6, 2004 Report Posted October 6, 2004 quote:Originally posted by LostInSpace: Anyway, I am going to defer to an older argument. Would you rather have a doctor that smoked cannibis or one that didn't (both with the same qualifications) to operate on you if you ever needed an operation? I think I'd rather go with the one smokin' weed. He will be focused and "into it". He'll see and be able to conceptualize all the finer, lesser points of the operation. The other doctor, who isn't stoned, would prolly treat me as "just another case", run me through the mill, and leave a pair of forceps in my stomach.
Grizzle Posted October 6, 2004 Report Posted October 6, 2004 LOL..this isn't the "weed" thread guys. I agree about the abolishment of the two party system though. Two choices aren't enough and with it being so entrenched, a third party hasn't much of a chance either. I vote for NO political affiliation or party system whatsoever. Let candidates run on their ideas for change, not their idealogy.
Guest Shingen Posted October 6, 2004 Report Posted October 6, 2004 You forgot one primary thing Nomad, and that is a violent uprising by the dis-enfranchised. The US Constitution allows for a violent uprising to fell a corrupt government. We are just years from this. Mark my words. The current system will fall. This Nation will be in chaos for several years, and the European Nations will try to profit from our weakness. However, the American Spirit will rise and we will be again, one nation. Just not the same nation.
Grizzle Posted October 6, 2004 Report Posted October 6, 2004 The short answer to "what happened" is intellectual laziness. A strong element of US culture is it's consumer oriented mentality. Most people don't want to be burdened with complex issues and thoughts so we end up with McDemocracy, a limited menu that's nothing but bland choices. The other problem as many people see it is the electoral college. Every state except for Maine and Nebraska have a winner take all system where all the states electoral votes go towards the candidate with the most popular votes. My home state of Colorado is considering splitting the electoral votes (they have 9) based on proportional representation. Each candidate will then get some of the votes. Maine and Nebraska are a little different in that they apply proportional votes based on congressional district, but have two "wildcard" votes that go to the overall winner statewide. It's a screwy system because you end up with situations like we had in 2000 where Gore won the popular vote but Bush won the electoral votes. Not to mention the recent spat of congressional redistricting in some states for the sole purpose of tilting the scales in favor of one party or the other.
Guest Shingen Posted October 6, 2004 Report Posted October 6, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Grizzle: The short answer to "what happened" is intellectual laziness. A strong element of US culture is it's consumer oriented mentality. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but that "consumer oriented mentality" can be directly traced back to The Illuminati. Capitalism, at it's heart needs consumers, in order to survive. Communism died because it couldn't produce...anything in the end, except death. Capitalism is successful because it allows for a basic human exisitance. It demands it. If the consumer has no buying power, then the Capitalist receives no profit. Profit equals power. The more profit the more power. This is the basis of Capitalism. This is why Capitalism has taken over the planet. The only problem with this is that the majority of the population is rendered a "consumer"...and once the "producer" becomes complacent, arrogant and starts producing a sub-standard product, the "consumer" becomes disenfranchised and rebels...violently.
Kalshion Posted October 6, 2004 Report Posted October 6, 2004 The thing is There is a good time to Rebel And a bad time to Rebel The only question is When is a good time, and when is it a bad time? A lot of people think that the time to rebel is drawing ever closer, some want our country back to the way it was back in the 50's and such when today's problems didn't exist When people actually helped others, where people actually cared about the person next to them and not about there own well being or greed for money I must agree, I don't know when such a rebellion will take place. My personel belief, is that if this country goes down any further (IE it went up when Bush was elected, we recovered a lot of stuff we lost during Clintons ran *like our military, intelligence and such*) Now the question lie's though. Will the people rebel during Kerry's or Bush's presidential 2004-2008? Many more believe such a rebellion would have dangerous consequences for the Unite States of America. That being said, many believe that we'll not only make our current problems WORSE. But we might also cause the US to become excient (in a sense) I personally don't want to be apart of such a Rebellion, I'm not a fighter, I'm a person who trys to speak words into my foes and get them to understand. I guess you could say I'm more a priest type person (although I don't appear to be like it sometimes ) But, again, who knows? Rebellion could take place tomorrow.. or 20 years from now, we will never know
Guest Shingen Posted October 6, 2004 Report Posted October 6, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Kalshion: I personally don't want to be apart of such a Rebellion, I'm not a fighter, I'm a person who trys to speak words into my foes and get them to understand. I guess you could say I'm more a priest type person (although I don't appear to be like it sometimes ) But, again, who knows? Rebellion could take place tomorrow.. or 20 years from now, we will never know I have no illusions about it. Life and Death are the same. I was trained by the US Military in mulitple ways to kill my enemy... ...in fact, because of my MOS, I was probably trained as well as any S.E.A.L. or Marine in dealing death to my adversary in hand-to-hand, close quarters combat. However, I do not hold with current political currents, and I would be one of the first to raise arms against the current establishment. Bush is WRONG!..as is Kerry! Not about Iraq or any such foolishness. Bush and Kerry want to subvert the very spirit of what freedom is, and I plan for the day that we rise up and defeat the stupid, complacent and ignorant! [ 10-06-2004, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: Shingen ]
Grizzle Posted October 6, 2004 Report Posted October 6, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Shingen: quote:Originally posted by Grizzle: The short answer to "what happened" is intellectual laziness. A strong element of US culture is it's consumer oriented mentality. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but that "consumer oriented mentality" can be directly traced back to The Illuminati. Capitalism, at it's heart needs consumers, in order to survive. Communism died because it couldn't produce...anything in the end, except death. Capitalism is successful because it allows for a basic human exisitance. It demands it. If the consumer has no buying power, then the Capitalist receives no profit. Profit equals power. The more profit the more power. This is the basis of Capitalism. This is why Capitalism has taken over the planet. The only problem with this is that the majority of the population is rendered a "consumer"...and once the "producer" becomes complacent, arrogant and starts producing a sub-standard product, the "consumer" becomes disenfranchised and rebels...violently. Nice post Shingen.
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