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Takvah

So now that Bush has won...

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Not being a fan of the electoral college, I would not be supportive of Kerry dragging this out for a long time. Obviously, he should concede pending the outcome of Ohio. It would be very funny if he actually lost by 3.5 million votes and won the electoral college *snickers*.

That said, I did my part and absolved myself of any responsibility for this President. I continue to hope for a more moderate Republican party but I think that I'll have to suffer through radicals for a few more years.

So now a question.

Since, everything I heard from Bush supporters was ... "if Kerry gets elected and we get attacked it will be his fault," (and indirectly mine for voting for him). I am curious, will it now be Bush's fault if and when we get attacked?

I'm just curious because I think that philosophy is used to misdirect blame and takes it from the perp and puts it on the President. I don't feel any safer with Bush, I think we've just been lucky. Honestly if you look at the measures taken to secure us they are woefully inadequate. It is as they said, a matter of time... however, when you guys talked about Kerry you made it seem as though when that attack came it would be HIS burden. I guess if I were small minded, I'd have to blame Bush right?

It was something I pondered last night as I thought about all of the rhetoric that's been spewed here since the start of the campaign. So I'm curious to hear the answers.

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last i checked the US had already been attacked. when its attacked again it wont matter who is in power. its like blaming bush for the first attack, it was going to happen no matter who is in the white house.

however, its what would happen AFTER the attack that makes the difference.

Kerry: Run to the UN and beg France and Russia for support, who will gladly tell him what to do and how to do it and make him have the USA carry the bulk of the cost in both blood and money.

Bush: Well you know what he's done no need to say anything more.

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Despite my being a staunch democrat, I found myself being an undecided in the closing moments and that was simply because Kerry failed to impress me in any way, shape or form.

All I gotta say at this point is, he's the president and good or bad, we have to deal with it.

Those who are so polarized (Democrats vs Republicans) to the point of fanacism, are just stupid. Bush has done some good things, while failing in other areas; so throwing out the baby with the bath water is just plain silly.

IMO, hopefully he'll spend the next four years fixing what he's broken and actually getting to issues that cater to the wide majority, rather than just the Republicans.

Hopefully in 2008, Hilary Clinton will run for office; now that would be interesting. Of course, all eyes are also on Barack Obama. Those are my two fav picks for 2008. But just watch, our Dem friends are going to pick another lame duck to run for office in 2008 and give the Republicans another run at the White House.

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Its interesting to note that the only means we have of learning about the outcome is through the mainstream media.

An entity that is suspect due to recent developments in regard to inaccurate or downright false stories being presented by unscrupulous reporters. So who the hell knows with 100% cetainty?

Like I have postulated before;

Our election system is a joke and is controlled by those who shouldn't be controlling anything.

/me puts on raincoat and boots in preperation for the excrement that will inevitably hit the rotary cooling device.

Your prediction for the democratic nominee in 2008 is right on the money, SC.

Billary has the ambition to become the first woman president, just so she and Billy Boy can continue their free ride on the backs of the taxpayers.

I'm sure Bill would just love being the first First Gentleman and have unrestricted access to more interns.

Chelsea; you must be very proud of your mom and dad. ROTFLMAO

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quote:


Originally posted by Wolferz:

Billary has the ambition to become the first woman president, just so she and Billy Boy can continue their free ride on the backs of the taxpayers.


Wot? You've gotta be kidding me.

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Hillary? No she wouldn't win either. Not because she's not qualified, but because she's a woman and she's a Clinton. This country is not ready to elect a woman to the Presidency, something made even more obvious by this election.

Obama, he would be a good choice, but I'd have to agree with you SC, the Dems are likely to elect another lame candidate for the 2008 race.

Let's all just hope for the best and hope that the inevitable changes in Bush's cabinet will have a moderating effect on the direction this country is headed.

I hope Kerry concedes soon, I don't want a drawn out battle. We should spend the next four years fixing what's broken with our voting process.

Congratulations to the reppy's and to Bush. See you in 2008!

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quote:


Originally posted by Grizzle:

Hillary? No she wouldn't win either. Not because she's not qualified, but because she's a woman and she's a Clinton. This country is not ready to elect a woman to the Presidency, something made even more obvious by this election.


Really? I saw figures on CNN which indicated that more women voted this time around than ever before.

quote:


Obama, he would be a good choice,

Yeah, but as soon as that gets underway, we're probably going to see a [veiled race based] bloodbath thats worse than the Kerry Vietnam flap by a select group of people who would never stand for a non-White President.

quote:


but I'd have to agree with you SC, the Dems are likely to elect another lame candidate for the 2008 race.


Yep.

quote:


Let's all just hope for the best and hope that the inevitable changes in Bush's cabinet will have a moderating effect on the direction this country is headed.

Unlikely. Bush has got himself another Republican senate. Surprising to me is that Daschle lost his seat.

quote:


I hope Kerry concedes soon, I don't want a drawn out battle. We should spend the next four years fixing what's broken with our voting process.

I agree 100%

EDIT: I just saw on CNN that Kerry has called Bush to concede the election.

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quote:

Originally posted by Takvah:

Not being a fan of the electoral college

Well this is a non-issue this time around not only does Bush the electoral college but he has the popular vote in fact the most votes of any President in history if I might add.

quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

1: Despite my being a staunch democrat, I found myself being an undecided in the closing moments and that was simply because Kerry failed to impress me in any way, shape or form.

2: IMO, hopefully he'll spend the next four years fixing what he's broken and actually getting to issues that cater to the wide majority, rather than just the Republicans.

3: Hopefully in 2008, Hilary Clinton will run for office; now that would be interesting. Of course, all eyes are also on Barack Obama. Those are my two fav picks for 2008. But just watch, our Dem friends are going to pick another lame duck to run for office in 2008 and give the Republicans another run at the White House.

1: Bush is not all perfect there was just something about Kerry I just didn't like and trust including John Edwards.

2: Well one good thing is that Bush doesn't have to worry about offending special interest groups, other politicians even his own Republicans because this is it for him. I'm sure he will work very hard to heal the split in this country that the Main Streem Media in most part fostered. Only time will tell about that.

3: I say Hillary also but who knows who's going to creep up and be the democratic party champion in 2008. About Barack Obama, yeah they were mentionting him on the news as being the democratic new shining star only time will tell on that also. It's way to soon to predict anything about 2008 just too much can happen between now and then.

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quote:

Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

Hillary? No she wouldn't win either. Not because she's not qualified, but because she's a woman and she's a Clinton. This country is not ready to elect a woman to the Presidency, something made even more obvious by this election.


Really? I saw figures on CNN which indicated that more women voted this time around than ever before.


That may be true, but don't you think if Hillary ran even MORE men would turn out to vote her down? The women turned out in this election for security issues, not because Kerry was an exciting candidate. I haven't read any of the stats, but how many of the women voters actually went for Bush?

Don't get me wrong, I'd vote for her, I just really think a large portion of this country lives their daily lives in the distant past and is not ready for a female President.

I do think we need a candiate other than a rich white male. I think that is the only hope for putting this country back in the hands of the people. But to your point, that would likely rouse even more ire amongst the entrenched ethno-centric in our society.

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If the Dems want the White House back, they are going to need to nominate a more moderate candidate. They should know that a liberal candidate from Massachusetts has little chance to paint the map blue in the south and midwest.

Despite going up against a vulnerable incumbant, the dems still lost. Clinton (Bill not Hillary) would have destroyed Bush.

I don't think Hillary has enough broad based support to win, she's viewed as another NE liberal by too many. I don't think she will ever be electable.

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quote:

Originally posted by Spindoktor:

I don't think Hillary has enough broad based support to win, she's viewed as another NE liberal by too many. I don't think she will ever be electable.

Yeah, it's kind of tough to call how that would pan out and don't remember she's got one handicap Bill.

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quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

I just really think a large portion of this country lives their daily lives in the distant past and is not ready for a female President.

I think you're dead wrong, if someone like Margaret Thatcher showed up in the political scene in the U.S. she would probably be THE most electable candidate ever. This country wants someone who is conservative (Read REPUBLICAN), but at the same time in in touch with the issues. And women are percieved to be more in touch than men. The problem however, is that most of the Women in Power, such as Clinton, are so far out on the left that they would never have a chance to win the Beltway of America.

Think about it, why did Clinton win, becuase he SOUNDED like a Republican, remember his "The Era of Big Government Is Over" speech?

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Guest MIKE113

What the Dems failed to understand is that America is still basically conservative and Christian based. You can tell that the West Coast and New England are the only strong base for Liberals. The heartland of America is Conservative. The South will not vote for a New England candidate man or woman IMO.

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quote:


Originally posted by Spindoktor:

Clinton (Bill not Hillary) would have destroyed Bush.


Without a doubt; and I'm sure that the Republicans know that.

quote:


Originally posted by Darkling:

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzle:

I just really think a large portion of this country lives their daily lives in the distant past and is not ready for a female President.


I think you're dead wrong, if someone like Margaret Thatcher showed up in the political scene in the U.S. she would probably be THE most electable candidate ever. This country wants someone who is conservative (Read REPUBLICAN), but at the same time in in touch with the issues. And women are percieved to be more in touch than men. The problem however, is that most of the Women in Power, such as Clinton, are so far out on the left that they would never have a chance to win the Beltway of America.

Think about it, why did Clinton win, becuase he SOUNDED like a Republican, remember his "The Era of Big Government Is Over" speech?


I tend to agree.

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if Hillary became the president then she would have been the president for 12 years or maybe 16 if she got reelected and thats just not fair!

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Sorry guys, I still have to disagree. It's nice to believe our society treats women with equality, but the fact remains we don't. In a few more decades maybe, but certainly not in 2008.

Until we can extract the heavy influence of religion and the 'boys club' mentality from the political arena, as well as the objectification of women in general, it just simply won't happen.

Sure, we'll pay them lip service and grant them lesser positions of power, but to run the country (Thatcher-esque or not), not now and not for a long time.

Hate to be so pessimistic about this, but I'm just calling it like I see it.

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The heavy influence of religion as you call it is part of America's identity--no candidate has ever been elected who didn't appeal to that part of the American voting public, and people's voting trends indicate that the American public is overwhelmingly shaped by religious beliefs and attitudes. (People on both the left and the right make apppeals to religious ideas to argue for their particular views, so while Religion doesn't necessarily require a particular party alignment, to say that it doesn't belong in the discussion is pretty radical.)

The boy's club mentality is about networking, not about men (I was working my way down this thread and thought Thatcher before I noticed someone had beat me to it). You don't like networking? Find your next job without knowing somebody or creating a good relationship with someone who does. The modern economy requires partnerships, and money doesn't care whether you pee sitting or standing.

The objectification of women in general is a consequence of the politics of sexual liberation that has been a hallmark issue for the left. You want women to stop being sexualized objects? Drop pornography from the news stands (heck, even Maxim, Stuff, and FHM contribute to this frat-party view of women). That sound like a knee-jerk fundamentalist conservative thing to do? Well I don't hear conservative voices defending pornography as a 1st Amendment right. I'd rather there were virtuous people who wouldn't print that (I don't normally favor regulation for this kind of thing, but I'd consider it for this), but the point is that conservatives didn't create this landscape for women.

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quote:


Really? I saw figures on CNN which indicated that more women voted this time around than ever before.

Indeed. However, just because they're women doesn't mean they'll automatically trend towards a woman. There's a huge conservative female movement underway (which is reflected most obviously in the balancing of the sides on the abortion issue) who certainly would not vote for Hillary Clinton -- woman or not.

It's like the assumption that Al Sharpton would carry the black vote due to him being black. Sharpton couldn't even turn out his constituents in the primaries.

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quote:

Originally posted by Zane Marlowe:

The heavy influence of religion as you call it is part of America's identity--no candidate has ever been elected who didn't appeal to that part of the American voting public, and people's voting trends indicate that the American public is overwhelmingly shaped by religious beliefs and attitudes. (People on both the left and the right make apppeals to religious ideas to argue for their particular views, so while Religion doesn't necessarily require a particular party alignment, to say that it doesn't belong in the discussion is pretty radical.)

Are you trying to refute my point or validate it? This is one of the main reasons I say it won't happen. Religion is full of condescension towards women. Show me one church that allows women to rise to the highest position of power in it's ranks.

Religion in American politics is a LARGE part of what is holding us back from true progression. It's so ironic that the country our forefathers fled to escape religious influence and persecution has beat us to the punch in successfully removing it's influence from politics, don't you think?

quote:

The boy's club mentality is about networking, not about men (I was working my way down this thread and thought Thatcher before I noticed someone had beat me to it). You don't like networking? Find your next job without knowing somebody or creating a good relationship with someone who does. The modern economy requires partnerships, and money doesn't care whether you pee sitting or standing.


I only wish it were simply about networking. It's certainly not as openly discussed as in the past, but you are deluded if you do not believe that there are still men (the influential among them) that feel women are not our equals.

Have you been blind to all the recent events surrounding the mistreatment of women in organizations dominated by men? The military, anyone?

quote:

The objectification of women in general is a consequence of the politics of sexual liberation that has been a hallmark issue for the left. You want women to stop being sexualized objects? Drop pornography from the news stands (heck, even Maxim, Stuff, and FHM contribute to this frat-party view of women). That sound like a knee-jerk fundamentalist conservative thing to do? Well I don't hear conservative voices defending pornography as a 1st Amendment right. I'd rather there were virtuous people who wouldn't print that (I don't normally favor regulation for this kind of thing, but I'd consider it for this), but the point is that conservatives didn't create this landscape for women.

I would argue it is our puritanical roots and the suppression of sexuality that has led to this over-objectification. Pornography certainly does not help the matter but it's more of a symptom than a cause.

Case in point, Britain is much more sexually liberated and progressive than we are and THEY were the country that elected Margaret Thatcher.

Just listen to some of the conservative views of feminism and the feminist movement and tell me that conservatism isn't part of the problem.

That's enough for this thread, it's off topic and I don't want to raise SC's hackles.

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Bush is the President. I am an American. As long as those things don't change I guess he is my president and I hope things improve in our country.

SC a rare political statement from you and I couldnt agree more.

I just hope the next election is free of the GOP smear machine . Maybe I'll get lucky and John McCain will run. He is probably the only politician alive who can heal the rifts and fissures created by Rove and Co.

As for Obama I hope he doesnt run. As far as this country has come, they are not ready for anything but white men in the white house. Barack would be dead before the inauguration.

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I disagree, I would vote for Colin Powell, or Condoleeza Rice in a heartbeat.

As a matter of fact there is talk of the next Republican ticket, dreams mostly, but the most popular one so far, is Rudi/Condi ticket.

I think it sounds interesting, but I don't consider Rudi a conservative, so would probably have to think REAL hard before pulling the lever on him. But Condi, In a hearbeat....

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