Jump to content

New Debate :Israel vs Palestine/Arab States


Hunted
 Share

Recommended Posts

Well who do you think is "right"

personally i believe Isarael. If Palestine realy wants peacem they would stop sending suicide bombers and gunmen against isareli civilians.

There is no excuse for suicide bombers, and now iraq has upped the amount of cash it's giving to the relatives of the suicide bombers, and dead gunmen?!!!

Palestine needs to back off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 290
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

quote:

Well who do you think is "right"

Both Israel and Palestine want peace...with one on top of the other. Neither is right.

quote:

There is no excuse for suicide bombers

There is no excuse for tanks either.

quote:

and now iraq has upped the amount of cash it's giving to the relatives of the suicide bombers, and dead gunmen?!!!

and the West sells tanks and attack helicopters to a state with nuclear weapons. No difference.

quote:

Palestine needs to back off.

Both sides need to back off from their segregationist positions, which means abandoning the whole concept of a Palestinian state and an Israeli state and forming either an integrated state or a stateless association.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the reason why the west sol the weapons was because every single arab natiion in the region attacked israel not once but three times!, suicide bombers is a from of terrorism which is exactly what the us is fighting against, not only are they commtting acts of terrorism they are getting money from arab states for doing so!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Palestinians are Jordanians, Israel should kick thier little hind ends right back there. Israel needs to keep the land that they won in the 1967 war and basically boot out those that wish to fight them. If those that are there wish to become Israeli citizens and swear that they will not terrorize the Population then they should be allowed to stay.

Otherwise, kick them and thier terrorist behinds back to Jordan and keep those that wish to live in peace. If they do not agree to leave, KILL them. Easy if you ask me, but I am pissed, this terrorist suicide bomber activity is inexcusable, and should be punished to the extreme.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This whole damn thing would most likely be over if Arafat would have accepted the Camp David settlement!

As far as no difference between Tanks and Suicide bombers.... GET REAL! Bloody *bass-tirds* are walking into *fug-grin* stores, shopping malls, coffee shops and caffe's killing kids, women, old folks . No excuse what-so-ever for that kind of crap... if Arafat had stopped the suicide bombings a cease fire would already be in place and negotiations would have started. The tanks are being used in response to over a year of constant murder of the civilians of Israel.

We in the U.S. would have flipped our lids just like on 9/11 if we were being hit with bombers on a daily basis... do you honestly think we wouldn't go kick someones *caboose* for that kinda *dung* in our country, just look at what we did to the Talaban!

As far as Arafat saying he couldn't do anything about the bombers... thats a load of horse*dung* in my oppion, as far as him being able to do it now well of course not, but then again he wasn't doing a damn thing before.

Arafat needs to get his head outta his *flatuation hole* and get down to some serious and meaningfull peace talks and stop spouting lies to his people... Speak with one damn voice!

Well, who's side do ya think I'm on.. I do have some things to say about Israel but hey, nothing as bad as what I have to say about Palastinian suicide bombers, or those that call the *very bad word here* martyrs .

Question for ya.... Who started the 6 day war?

Answer: A combination of Arab states started it thats who and *another bad word here* the Palastinians have refused every possible peace settlement since then just look at Egypt, Jordan and Syria... they made peace and guess what they got their lands back, as far as the Golan heights well Syria got that back until they continued lobbing shells into Israel from the heights.

Welp thats my oppinion and I'm entitled to it whether ya agree or not.. I care more about the civilians then about the Sum-*beaches* that kill innocent people... sorry, fault me if ya will, but this person is sick of the whaaaa you put "Usama Bucktooth Terrorist" in a little cage on gitmo with 3 squares a day and full medical... yadda yadda yadda.... "Damn site better then a fuggin cave!"

* Please insert more appropriate body part and/or cuss word in these locations, thank you.

[ 04-04-2002, 13:47: Message edited by: Flak ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

the reason why the west sol the weapons was because every single arab natiion in the region attacked israel not once but three times!

Why?

quote:

suicide bombers is a from of terrorism which is exactly what the us is fighting against, not only are they commtting acts of terrorism they are getting money from arab states for doing so!

Suicide bombers are the most destructive weapons that they have (they don't have armoured vehicles or aircraft). If killing a civilian with a bomb attached to someone's chest is terrorism, then killing a civilian with a rocket fired from a helicopter 1000 feet away is also terrorism. Terrorism is defined by the outcome of its action, not by the weapon that is used.

quote:

The Palestinians are Jordanians, Israel should kick thier little hind ends right back there.

Palestinians were living in what is now modern day Israel before the yishuv (Jewish settlements) even existed. Sending them back is exactly what Israel does not want to do.

quote:

As far as no difference between Tanks and Suicide bombers....GET REAL! Bloody *bass-tirds* are walking into *fug-grin* stores, shopping malls, coffee shops and caffe's killing kids, women, old folks.

The only difference between that and a tank is that a tank can park outside and kill, which is no difference in my book.

quote:

No excuse what-so-ever for that kind of crap... if Arafat had stopped the suicide bombings a cease fire would already be in place and negotiations would have started.

Even if Arafat wanted to stop the bombings (which he doesn't) he could not have done so without making himself a target for the bombers. The mere fact that he took diplomacy seriously at one point made him very unpopular with his people. I'm surprised that the Palestinians haven't blown HIM up.

quote:

The tanks are being used in response to over a year of constant murder of the civilians of Israel.

What's their response? Killing civilians in the Palestinian territories. Catch-22.

[ 04-05-2002, 01:38: Message edited by: Menchise ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is anybody else glad we live in such a violent world?? pain, misery, violence, hate.. what would we do without these? who would we blame. without these how would we know what love or peace feels like, dont they require one another, relative to each other. imagine we stomp out hate, you have a kid and he grows up without hate, how would he know what love is? he would have nothing to distinguish it from anything else. im personally much more afraid that we accomplish world peace and violence disapears, i mean imagine what would have to be done. everything that makes us *human*. we would have chips in our brains, freewill would be stripped from us. the end of free will is near, we will all be mindless zombie servents for out governments.... HAIL VIOLENCE HAIL HATE HAIL PAIN THIS IS WHAT LIFE IS. BWAHAHAHAH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:


Why?

The arab nations surrounding Israel were vehemently oppsosed to the creation of a separate Israeli state after WWII. They vowed to erase that state from the map once Britain pulled out. After their failure to destroy Israel then, these arab states have tried a couple of times to again destroy Israel. Each attepmt has met with a loss of land for the Arabs.

That at least is the modern view; the conflict itself goes back several thousand years.

quote:


Palestinians were living in what is now modern day Israel before the yishuv (Jewish settlements) even existed. Sending them back is exactly what Israel does not want to do.


The Jews actually had posession of what we call modern day Israel since at least Babylonian times. After they were returned from captivity they once again possessed this land until the Roman Empire absorbed them and I believe they were still settled there until 70AD when Titus was sent to quell the Jewish revolt. Since that time Israel has not had posession of the land we call Israel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

The arab nations surrounding Israel were vehemently oppsosed to the creation of a separate Israeli state after WWII. They vowed to erase that state from the map once Britain pulled out. After their failure to destroy Israel then, these arab states have tried a couple of times to again destroy Israel. Each attepmt has met with a loss of land for the Arabs.

That just about covers it. The fact that the establishment of an Israeli state contradicted with peaceful coexistence with neighbouring Arabs was a focal point in some heated debates that led to factional splits within the Zionist movement during the early 20th century.

quote:

The Jews actually had posession of what we call modern day Israel since at least Babylonian times. After they were returned from captivity they once again possessed this land until the Roman Empire absorbed them and I believe they were still settled there until 70AD when Titus was sent to quell the Jewish revolt. Since that time Israel has not had posession of the land we call Israel.

Hmm. Learn something new everyday.

[ 04-05-2002, 08:57: Message edited by: Menchise ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CORRECT ECLIPSE THANK YOU FOR THE BACKROUND I DID NOT FEREL LIKE WRITING!!!!

Anyways Menchise you have already proved my point. Under the Rules of Engagement a Civilian holding a wepaon...Palesitinian's with Ak's are no longer a civilian!. So Israel is targetting civilains who are shooting at them. Israeli's aren't killing kids in the streets they are firing at people who are shooting at them...TARGETING HOSTILES....unlike suicide bombers who TARGET CIVILIANS!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Grayfox

exactly... a civillian with a weapon that can kill, and has the intent on using it as such against another human being, is no longer a civillian... in my eyes anyway.

and one point i stress to some friends at work... dont foo with the israeli army... theyre badasses. albeit they use OUR equipment (most of it anyways), they are a bunch of tough people.

i mean theres a whole bunch of examples... 6 day war, the raid on the iraqi nuke plant, not to mention the mossad ( i think i spelled that right) which is a real top-notch intelligence organization.

but the question is, what now? keep arafat hostage? palestinian genocide? what? who knows... theyve been at eachothers throats for thousands of years, and my personal belief is let THEM handle it without OUR interference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A little bit of humor for the debate.

Suicide bombers are the Palestinians 401k plan. Here's how a conversation would go with the typical Palestinian parents.

Me: Hello, how are you planning for your retirement?

Palestinian Couple: Well we just had a son, we will care for him for 18 years, then he will strap a bomb to his self and blow up some civilians in Israel and we will get a check we shall use to buy a condo in the West Bank.

Me:.. um okay....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am going to go over this and see if it makes sense. It is very basic, but in order to go into specifics I would have to write a book.

1: Britain creates Israel from land that it possessed in 1947.

2: 1967, Israel is attacked by a number of Arab nations on one of it's holiest days,and kicks the hell out of the Arabs and takes the land that the attack was staged from. They won it in a war, IT IS THIERS, not Paletinians, not Jordanians, it is Israels, payed for in BLOOD!! IT IS NOT OCCUPIED TERRITORY, it is thiers!!

3: The palestinians are kicked out of Jordan and into the "occupied" west bank when they try a military takeover of Jordan. The king KICKS thier little terrorists butts out of his country.

4: Israel signs a peace agreement with Egypt, Saddat is murdered for it by Islamic fundamentalists.

5: in 1999 Israel agrees to the Oslo accords, it gave the palestinians 96% of what they wanted. Arafat refuses to take the deal and ups the terrorist activity to such a point that Israel is under siege. Arafat does NOT want peace, he wants nothing less then the total destruction of Israel and to drive the Jewish nation into the sea.

6: Sharon comes to power, responds to the TERRORIST attacks by destroying palestinian military structures and infrastructure. The only civilians killed are those that have taken up arms and are attacking Israel, and those dumb enough to stay in and around targeted buildings.

And now he has actually pinned Arafat in his offices and is arresting EVERY terrorist they can find.

The bottom line is that the Palestinians are terrorists, have always been terrorists, and the arab nations are using them to destroy the nation that they couldn't in 1967. Israel is now tired of all the killing of thier citizens by these immoral suicide murderers, and have taken Arafat to task. Arafat is now screaming for peace, why? because he's been spanked and spanked hard.

Bush is saying one thing and doing another, he is telling Israel to back off and try and find a political solution, but he is not doing anything to make it happen. In other words he actually thinks that the Israelis are doing the right thing, and they are. These Terrorists need to be put down like the rabid animals that they are.

There is no place in the civilized world for people that target civilians, PERIOD.

Some of the peaceniks out there may think that Israel is having a major overreaction, but they are not, the percentage of thier population killed in terrorist activities compared to our little attack on the WTC is staggering. It is MUCH higher, they have a far smaller population then the US and we destroyed an entire government and infrastructure. Israel has EVERY right to strike back and put a stop to this nonsense, and put a stop to it NOW!!

Israel is doing EXACTLY the right thing, and it's about fricking time, I have been waiting for this for the last 18 months.

Arafat wants NOTHING less then the total destruction of Israel, and he is financed by Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria. The ONLY way that we are actually going to put a stop to this is to destroy Iraq's ability to create WMD's, Irans ability to export it's terrorist activities, and to LOCK down Saudi Arabias ability to give money to them, and of course to allow Israel to take whatever action is necessary to destroy the ability of the Palestinians to wage thier terrorist murdering activities.

They already busted up a suicide belt factory, YES, FACTORY, they confiscated over 40 belts loaded with enough explosives and nails and glass etc to shred and kill thousands of civilians.

This is SICK, and Israel NEEDS to stop the Palestinians NOW before anymore of thier INNOCENT civilians are killed by these animals.

Also, this is the first time that I have ever heard of a country being asked to find a political solution and make peace during a war. If you want peace, you kick the hell out of the aggressor until thier ability to wage war is gone and they BEG for peace. THAT is the only way that there will EVER be a REAL PERMANENT solution to this conflict. When Israel has kicked the hell out the Palestinains to such a point where they finally throw in the towel. That is when there will be peace. A political solution is actually rewarding the Palestinians for thier terrorist acts. It's time to put them down and put them down HARD!!

[ 04-05-2002, 16:13: Message edited by: Jaguar ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For those of you who don't know. Israeli forces seized thousands of firearms (rifles, handguns), grenades and bombs in the last couple of days in their sweeps for terrorists.

Does anyone think that those weapons, especially the grenades and the bombs were kept by palestinians for "self protections"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thought that I would throw this in here, this is one of the most coherent and heartfelt letters, and tells about Israel and it's history briefly and to the point.

A Letter From Israel

quote:

Dear Friends and Family,

Thank you for your kind wishes on the occasion of our wedding. We had a wonderful time in Australia. It was so special to share the most wonderful day of our lives with friends and family from near and far.

We followed up with a honeymoon in Noosa Heads and Sydney. Two weeks ago we had a beautiful celebration for friends and relatives on Mt. Scopus in Jerusalem. Again it was wonderful to be with good friends. The Maeirsdorf Faculty Club where we held our celebration is a sea of tranquility in our city. It commands majestic views over the Old City. You can look out in the beautiful midday sun over the Temple Mount and the Ancient Western Wall and feel the illusion of peace and tranquility.

We enjoyed it for a few hours and then went back to the reality of the war in which we are currently engaged. I drive a bullet-proof car to work but I cannot go the fastest route because the chances of being shot at solely for the reason that I am Jewish are too great.

I am writing this email as someone who has lived in Jerusalem for the past seven and one-half years, who has worked on a daily basis with Palestinian Arabs in the hospitals here, who has treated Palestinian Arabs as patients in the hospital, and who has worked as a doctor in the West Bank.

Perhaps I may seem biased, but simple facts speak for themselves. The simplest fact being the little old Arab lady who sells olives outside our supermarket in Jewish West Jerusalem. She comes, she goes, she has no need to fear for her safety. She, like thousands of Arabs that work in Israel can freely move around in Israel without any fear of being attacked by an Israeli.

If you are Jewish and you find yourself by accident in an area controlled by the Palestinian Authority the chance of you coming out of there alive is infinitesimal. It doesnÔÇÖt matter if you are left-wing, right-wing, religious, or secular. It doesnÔÇÖt matter if you are from Russia, Yemen, Egypt, Morocco, Europe or South America. It doesnÔÇÖt matter if you have Palestinian friends or not. The fact is if you are a Jew and you make a wrong turn on a street you are unlikely to survive. There are many examples of left-wing ideologues who continue to do business in Area A (the West Bank) who have been taken out and shot by sections of the PA, wether Fatah, Al Aqsa Brigades or Tanzim. If you are mistaken for a Jew, your fate will be the same. There is a Greek Orthodox priest who was gunned down on the road to Jerusalem a few months ago because he was thought to be a Jew by his killers. A few days ago two UN observers were shot by Palestinian Authority gunmen. These people were not people inadvertently caught in cross fire - they were killed because their killers thought they were Jews.

All of my friends here and all of my relatives here are in the army. It is truly a citizenÔÇÖs army that includes all strata of Israeli society and includes many brave Druze and Bedouin soldiers who are not required to go into the army, but who volunteer to serve their country.

A debate is going on in this country about how to perform imperative military actions against terrorist targets without harming Palestinian civilians. The debate is a heated one, but all Israelis are in agreement that no Palestinian civilians should be injured. Interestingly, we have not heard similar debates going on in the Palestinian community.

In fact the main target of the Palestinians are innocent civilians. In the past week alone, Palestinians have killed Jews at Passover seder, in cafes, in markets. I have not heard of any Palestinian attacking a base of the IDF.

There can be no hope for peace for at least a generation. The educational programs of the Palestinian schools teaches their children to hate Jews and to kill them when they can. Babies of 5 or 6 are taught to shoot guns and throw grenades. They are taught, despite the reality, that the Jews have to right to be in the Middle East, that they have unlawfully taken property belonging to the Arabs and that they should be killed. They encourage ÔÇ£martyrdomÔÇØ and idolize suicide bombers. They are taught that their life on this earth is meaningless unless it is used to kill Jews.

The Palestinian Authority, under the OSLO accords, is supposed to arrest wanted terrorists and hand them over for prosecution. One of the suicide bombers was in PA custody last week. He told them what he wanted to do, and they let him go.

In some ways, we Israelis are to blame for not being more stringent with Arafat at the very beginning. In the name of giving peace a chance, we looked the other way. It gave the wrong message and I am afraid we are now paying the price.

If you look at the last few years you can this about Arafat: Either you canÔÇÖt control your own people, in which case, why are we negotiating with you, or you are controlling your own people in these terrorist attacks, in which case, why are we negotiating with you?

People of little insight claim that there are extremists on both sides. This is true, but is a largely vacuous argument. There have been a small handful of incidents perpetrated by Jews on Palestinians in the past 10 years. The worst was the Baruch Goldstein massacre in Hebron in 1994. These incidents, without exception, have been totally and forcibly condemned by 99% of the Jewish population, left and right-wing alike. Jews who commit crimes against Palestinians are brought to trial and sentenced, and receive loud public condemnation.

When there is Arab terror against Jews there is no public condemnation among the Arabs. Just the opposite. There is cheering and laughing. Of the 100's of transcripts I have read of interviews of parents of suicide bombers I can remember only one case where a parent expressed remorse for the barbaric acts of their child. The overall feeling of parents of suicide bombers is one of brimming pride and satisfaction that their children have killed Jews.

We have heard much in the media about the fact that Palestine was ÔÇ£conqueredÔÇØ by the Jews who have no right to be here. That seems to be working well in the International arena. What are the facts?

At the end of World War I, in the Treaty of Versailles, Great Britain was awarded the Turkish district of Palestine on a mandate of facilitating the establishment of a Jewish State in Palestine. The Declaration was called the Balfour Declaration. Palestine encompassed the historic Jewish homeland where there had been a continuous Jewish presence for several millenia. In the year 70 CE the Romans conquered the land that was then known as Judea (from which the designation ÔÇ£JewÔÇØ comes). They wanted to replace the name with one that didnÔÇÖt refer to Jews so they chose a name from the Philistines who had invaded the area from Greece in about 1200 BCE and who had disappeared around 500 BCE. They changed the name of the area to Philistina (Palestine).

In the early 1920's 77% of Palestine (the area east of the Jordan River) was given by England to the Hashemite Kings of Saudi Arabia. That area came to be known as Trans-Jordan. It was a state of primarily Palestinian Arabs. At that time, all residents of the area, Jews, Christians and Arabs were known as Palestinians. The Palestinian Post (now the Jerusalem Post) and Palestine Radio were Jewish institutions, founded by Jews prior to the formation of the State of Israel. In modern times, Jews have been the largest religious group living in Jerusalem since the 1840's. Only at the end of the British Mandate, prior to the formation of the State of Israel was Palestinian considered to be a term applied to Arabs only. From the formation of the State of Israel in 1948 through the 1973 war the Arabs on the West Bank of the Jordan were considered to be Jordanians not Palestinians.

In 1947 the Jewish population of Palestine agreed to a UN brokered partition of the remaining 23% of the original area of Palestine (the area west of the Jordan River) so that the Jews could have their own state. The agreement was approximately to share the land 50% to the Jews and 50% to the Arabs under Jordanian rule. The Arab League rejected the partition and as soon as the State of Israel was declared they attacked Israel. A war was fought in which the result was a division of the land which was less favorable to the Arabs than the original UN Partition Plan.

In 1967 after years of shooting at Northern Israel from the vantage point of the Golan Heights and sending terrorists into Israel, Syria and Egypt created a joint command, massed large armed forces on IsraelÔÇÖs border and threatened to annihilate Israel. In a pre-emptive strike Israel defeated both armies and captured the Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula to the Suez Canal.

Israel had told Jordan to stay out of the war, keep you borders quiet and we wonÔÇÖt bother you. Instead Jordan also attacked Israel. In the war against Jordan Israel defeated them and took control of the Temple Mount and the West Bank. On entering the Old City of Jerusalem in 1967, Israel found that the holiest Jewish sites had been gutted and desecrated. Tombstones from ancient Jewish graves on the Mt. of Olives had been used as pathways to Jordanian Army latrines and as stones to line the latrines.

When Israel conquered the West Bank and the Sinai Peninsula in the war of 1967 she offered to return all the properties in exchange for peace. The answer was the famous three ÔÇ£noÔÇÖsÔÇØ from the Arab League in the Khartoum Summit. No recognition of Israel, No negotiation with Israel, No peace with Israel.

In 1973 Sadat, the President of Egypt, decided to retake the Sinai Peninsula by force. The Egyptians were soundly defeated in that war. By 1977, because of a struggling economy, and because the United States convinced Sadat that there would be a ÔÇ£peace dividendÔÇØ if Egypt made peace with Israel, Sadat offered recognition and peace in exchange for the return of the Sinai desert, despite domestic opposition within Egypt. He flew to Israel and spoke to the Knesset. Israel entered into a peace treaty with Egypt and gave them back the land, notwithstanding the fact that 7,000 Israelis were uprooted from their homes in settlements in the Sinai, some of them forcibly by the IDF. Israel also gave up its only chance to be energy-independent. The Alma oil field in Southern Sinai provided most of the energy for Israel, and projections were that Israel would be totally energy independent if it had kept that oil field.

The Palestinians could have achieved the same. Had they the courage of Sadat, they would have their own state today.

I have lived and worked in Jewish towns in the West Bank. I know the people that live there. Some of the communities I have worked and lived in were Jewish towns before 1948 - before statehood. Some are new towns on the sites of or near the sites of Ancient Jewish towns from 2000 years ago. I cannot speak for every West Bank resident, but I know that a strong majority of them would move voluntarily and make concessions if they felt the result would be a lasting peace.

There seems, unfortunately, to be no reciprocity coming from the Palestinians. For years now Arafat has been talking peace to the press in English, while at the same time inciting war in Arabic to the masses. Palestinian TV bombards the people, including children, daily with hate messages about Israel and Jews. Where will peace come from in the next generation?

In Israel the focus is on peace. We want to achieve it one way or another. There are political groups pressing for outlandish compromises in exchange for peace. Our children are named Shalom (Peace) and it is a frequent theme in our prayers. We have no children named Jihad - and there is no concept of a holy war as a Jewish goal. The non-Jewish population in Israel is not seen as an ÔÇ£infidelÔÇØ and they are welcome to share our country with us. The Muslims want only a homogenous Muslim population from the Atlantic to Malaysia without Christians or Jews. The reason they hate us is because we are not Muslims, not because we are ÔÇ£occupyingÔÇØ their territory.

I have spent many Saturday afternoons with my cousins in Ramot. My 16 year old cousin had friend called Michal. She was always coming over to their house. She was a warm and sweet little girl. Seven months ago she went to get a pizza downtown and was blown up by a suicide bomber. She died with her best friend, another 16 year old girl from Ramot. Within a few days of their killing a museum was set up in the home town of the suicide bomber in Nablus - glorifying the act in every detail. The pizza shop was recreated and the locals could walk through the different rooms of the recreated pizza shop and look at the plastic models of severed limbs of Jewish children. The PA closed down the exhibit only after it started to get bad press overseas.

In July 2000 when Barak sat down with Arafat and offered him 97% of the West Bank - it was the most that Israel could do. Israel amounts to 1/2000 the size of its Arab neighbors - and is only nine miles wide at its center. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab country - it has always been a Jewish capital - yet we offered Arafat part of Jerusalem for his capital. We could do no more. Arafat rejected our offer.

I have not spent any time preparing these words. I speak to you from my gut and my heart as I read the foreign press and watch the BBC and see distorted reporting, bias and half-truths.

I hope that those of you who read this outside of Israel have a greater perspective about what is really going on here than you did before. Unfortunately you did not know those beautiful young innocents who I knew and who touched my life - and who were recently murdered by sick suicide bombers - Michal Raziel, Aish-Kodesh Gilmour and Malchi Roth. Some of you may know my cousin Adi who was shot at while driving to work three weeks ago, but was not hit.

Take a minute and try to feel what it is like after having offered everything we could and we are answered with bombs in our cafes and restaurants, our markets and malls and our Passover Seders. It is clear that the Palestinians do not want us to retreat to the 1967 borders - they want us out of the Middle East. Incidentally, if all the fighting is about our retreating to the 1967 borders - what was all the fighting about prior to 1967?

The recent bombings included many places where Leeba and I would go out to brunch or dinner until recently. Like most Israelis now, we stay home. I go to work. The tennis centre is near a mall that was targeted by so far the tennis centre hasnÔÇÖt been, so I still go there to play tennis. It helps relieve my stress, but it is so weird playing tennis while the country is at war.

Take care and I am sorry about the sorrowful tone of the letter. Please try to understand where we are and what we are going through. We are lucky because we can leave if we need to, but we wonÔÇÖt. There are friends of mine who have been in this land for generations and some for hundreds of years. The Zinaati family goes back before the Roman revolt. These people have nowhere else to go. This is their home. So if you see the IDF taking more aggressive action you will know why. We have offered all we can - and we have nowhere else to go.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this letter, we are at war. This is a war which we did not seek and we now pray for peace - however it may come.

Take care,

Danny


Thought it was pretty heavy duty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FYI, Britain promised a state to both isreal and palestine, however the palistinians didn't have the clout to push Britain to do as promised, as the Jewish people did. Thier lobbists were much more effective in swaying american favor for them, and Britain backed out before a palestinian state was formed.

In my opinion, I don't think Isreal should ever have been formed in the first place. Why should land that is so sacred and holy to THREE of the worlds major religions be ruled by a state that is devoutly Jewish?

Also FYI, since sept 2001, as of Apr. 4 2002, 1,260 palestinians have been killed, and 410 isrealis have been killed. This includes both military and CIVILIAN deaths. Yes the isrealis have killed civilians, however assuradly they were not targeted, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

Terrorism is defined by the outcome of its action, not by the weapon that is used.

I dispute this statement.

Terrorism is defined by the intent of the action, not the outcome.

Would you call what is commonly known as "collateral damage" terrorism because the outcome is that civilians were killed even though it was not the intent that civilians be killed?

Would you try to make a moral equivalence between a suicide bomber who intentionally blows up a Jewish Passover Seder and kills 25 people, and an army retaliation that targets military command centers and bunkers?

Would you make a moral equivalence between a person who repeatedly attacks another (unprovoked, unless the very existence of the other is provocation enough) and the other's attempt at defending or repelling the unwanted attack?

Arafat's "game" is to keep goading Israel into retaliating through terror tactics, and then crying to the world at how Israel is using its overwhelming force of tanks and jets against his poor, rock-throwing rabble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Bush is saying one thing and doing another, he is telling Israel to back off and try and find a political solution, but he is not doing anything to make it happen. In other words he actually thinks that the Israelis are doing the right thing, and they are."

Well, I would believe its more because the US is right now engaged in the same kind of activity against an arab terrorist organization/host nation. Would be ackward to say "we can kick the crap of and invade afghanistan because of ONE attack on our land, but Israel cant kick the crap of the palestinian terrorists.. umm.. because they cant."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest dnoyeB!

A few issues I must express.

First, what advice do you think a Native American would have for a Palestinian?

As for Israel, you can not "WIN" land. This is not a poker game. The war came the second Israel declared herself a Nation again. Of course. She can hold the land, but their is a price. Thats why she has given most of it back. but palestinians have no power and she does not deal fairly with them as a result.

Now we must also mention that Syria and Lebanon also posses lands from the palestinians which they have not given back as I understand it. Shame on them, and hypocritical I might add.

BTW, as for calling her a democracy...She refuses to allow the palestinians to return in order to secure a Jewish majority at all times.

As for suicide bombers? You can end that by simply giving them tanks and grenade launchers. Give them a viable way to attack the Israeli military and I am sure the civilian attacks would stop. All is fair in love and war right? Which was the poem where the guy ripped out his heart and threw it at his enemy? On that same note I must not condemn the Israeli response/agression though I was tought the bigger man has the bigger responsibility.

Forget peace, their wont be any. Amazing how similar the plight of the Palestinians is to what the Jews whent thru in Europe. Palestinian economic situation is bleek. They will work for those same Jews who look down on them and treat them like dirt. Israel will have peace, the surrounding Arab states will have peace, but none for the palestinians.

Maybe they can open casinos in Jerusalem? Maybe they should admit they lost, get over it and live in servitude to the Jews?

"Let that be your last battlefield."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My position, suffice to say is that the United States should not get involved in this conflict at all, and I hope that Israel, regardless of reputational damage, eliminates the threat facing it's civilians. I do believe that many Palestinian civilians truly want peace, but I believe that as long as suicide bombers are coming across the West Bank, 2 - 3 every week, Israel should continue to weed out the terrorists. It's stupid to expect Israel to do nothing while suicide bombers flood the West Bank, and Israel simply does nothing. Prime Minister Sharon's popularity has plummeted, and it is only now that he is taking "action" that it rises. The Jewish people want justice, and security.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Weed out terrorists" What a silly thing to say. For every terrorist "weeded out" becomes a martyr for thier cause, and young men in palistine, with no chance to better their lives due to isreali occupation, pick up the cause. Same goes for our war on terror. Killing or arresting terrorists will do nothing to stop it, just as arresting drug dealers will not stop the drug trade. The problems are much larger socialogical issues, and the only way to end any of this, terrorism and middle east violence, is to recognize and address the ROOT causes behind it all. We need to address why the world resents us, and as a result hates us. Isreal needs to fess up to it's wrongdoings as well and stop being so hard headed, they claim devine right to the land, but when a muslim palestinian and an isreali both pull their tigger at the same time and kill one another, who goes to heaven? We could sweep every single terroist off the face of the earth, but as sure as the earth orbits the sun, when another problem arises in the world, whatever it may be, some person, who wasn't involved in terror when we swept his region clean, will turn to it to advance his cause. It won't ever end, all we can do is suppress it's effects.

The Palestinian people want justice and security as well, however justice ruled by a palestinian judge, and security from isreali incursions into land their feel is rightfully theirs. I'm not saying that sucicide bombers are the way to go, nor that isreal is in the wrong for it's retalitory actions, however for every extra jewish soldier that enters palestinian towns, is that much more resentment brewed in the palestinian people. It's a sad downward spiral whose cause is ingrained in religion itself, and we all know how difficult it is to "challange the word of god."

[ 04-06-2002, 00:11: Message edited by: goaliejerry ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

quote:

I dispute this statement.

Terrorism is defined by the intent of the action, not the outcome.

Yes, that is a more accurate statement. I was mainly concerned about the focus on the weapons used.

Anyway, here is a 'brief' history of Israel's creation, dating from the early days of Zionism to the declaration of the state.

1896: Zionist movement conceived by Theodor Herzl. Its motivation was to advance the political emancipation of the Jews, which was being blocked by anti-Semitism and pressure by conservatives to assimilate into Euro-Christian society.

1897: 1st Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland. The Basel Program is developed as a platform for the movement. The program includes the Zionists' main goal: to create "a home in Palestine secured by public law" (a Jewish state). The WZO (World Zionist Organization) is formed.

1897-1904: Herzl commences diplomatic relations with Britain after negotiations with Turkey fail. Britain proposes a feasibility study on Jewish colonization in East Africa - the Uganda Scheme. Herzl's acceptance triggers a temporary split in the Zionist movement. Herzl eventually reconciles with the split factions.

1905: The 7th Zionist Congress rejects the Uganda Scheme.

1905-onwards: Development of the kibbutz and yishuv (Jewish community) continues in Palestine.

1914: First World War begins.

1917: In their efforts to gain control of Palestine from Turkey, the British issue the Balfour Declaration to gain Zionist support in the war. The declaration was a promise that if Palestine came under British rule, a Jewish state would be established.

1918: First World War ends.

1922: The League of Nations approves the British Mandate over Palestine, which includes the terms of the Balfour Declaration.

1922-1936: Palestinian Arab opposition to British rule and Zionism emerges, escalating into riots.

1936-1939: Riots and nationalist uprisings lead to an Arab revolt, which is eventually suppressed by British troops. In reaction, the Zionists adopt the approach of forming a joint Arab-Jewish state with a Jewish majority.

1939: The British Government reverses the Balfour Declaration by issuing the White Paper, which promises a Palestinian state within ten years and Arab control over Jewish immigration after five years.

1939-1944: The termination of Anglo-Zionist cooperation provokes violent protests by the yishuv.

1944: Zionist guerillas led by Menachem Begin initiate an armed revolt against British rule.

1947: The British withdrawal from Palestine begins. The government calls on the United Nations to handle the issue of the country's future. The UN resolution - passed by a vote of 33 to 13 - called for the partition of Palestine into an economic union of Jewish and Arab states, the establishment of an international zone over Jerusalem, and the end of the British Mandate in 1948. The partition plan provokes violent protests from Palestinian Arabs which escalate into civil war.

May 14, 1948: The day the British Mandate ends, the yishuv declares the State of Israel, with Tel Aviv as its capital. The first Arab-Israeli war begins the next day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do the Arab States really care about the Palestinians unless it's convenient...NO!

When have you ever heard of the Saudi's or any arab states offering land for refugees or sending money from "the Great Satan" to help with the refugee situation, also iraq knows the us has to have some peace in the middle east before they can go get saddam, so they pay more to suicide bombers in a desperate attempt to hold off the coming tides of the US storm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...