Showdown in Cyberspace

[Supreme Cmdr]

Pretty good read

[ 07-11-2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[rjy01]

quote:

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The hardcore gamers who make these games successful can usually obsess over only one game at a time. There are only so many hours in a week, after all, and MMORPGs are nothing if not massively time-consuming.

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So true. Sigh -- to be a teenager again.

[CommanderJohnson]

The article sort of proves how BCO is a surefire thing. It'll have all of us there. Well, unless something somehow caters to the sci-fi realm better, and happens to also not involve leveling up (unless I misunderstood BCO to this point...it's not based on a level-up system, is it?)

[Charles Lindsey]

So basically "they" want to please everyone all the time to gain users. Not gonna happen.

Right about one thing though. If I choose to devote my time to BCM then that's what I am interested in and no one else is gonna get me.

Pick your market like Derek did and stick with it. Don't upset everyone by making "it" too dumb for the hardcore, too hard for the newbies, and no fun to play at all.

[Epsilon 5]

In any MMOG, there is the idea that you need to do time-consuming quests and trainings to gain skills and other kinds of "player-modfier". Without those, most people won't see the point of playing the game.

However, the problem is, how do you reward a hard-core gamer long playing time without cursing a casual player over his weakness, because in a month he did what the hard-core player does over a week or less?

I'm not even sure how BCO will get away from that. I mean, seriously... Derek is there a way you could explain how you could proceed?

I do agree however that you cannot please everyone. that doesn't make sense. You should stick to a specific kind of people, but a MMOG should be made to try and please any gamer of that kind, no matter how much time they can devote....

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

I'm not even sure how BCO will get away from that. I mean, seriously... Derek is there a way you could explain how you could proceed?

...

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Without going into too much detail, here are some thoughts

[*]I am going to have dedicated servers that don't cater to all that rank/skill based nonsense if you don't want to pay attention to it. You logon, you play, you logoff. And since you can have more than one persona, you can have separate characters on different servers.

[*]Not only am I not interested in any additions outside of the existing fan base, but BCO, like all BC games, is designed and geared toward the fanbase playing style and the features that keep you guys coming back version after version. I have no interest in making my games for the mass market. The closest I came to making it easy to play (different premise) was making as much features in BCM as mouse driven as possible, icons for some items (to reduce manual and keyboard sheet lookups etc). This again, is just for ease of use more than anything else. And according to the press and fan reviews, I think I succeeded in this regard.

[*]And since I'm notorious for enhancing BC games outside of bug fixes, that alone is a sure fire reason for someone to keep paying their dues each month to play - if they so choose. With all MMOGs, as far as I'm aware, the only time you ever get new high-end stuff, is when you go out and buy add-ons etc. My strategy for BCO is only related to the fact that if it all works out (as I expect that it will, God willing), I don't have to do a new from-the-ground up product every two years. I'm dead serious about this. After BCTC, apart from the XBox title, thats it. BCO will be the last BC title ever developed from the ground up.

And if there comes a time for a major overhaul, well then, thats why I'm a brilliantly mad isn't it?

[*]As the article says, most of these will either never see the light of day or will fail. Even those that do get released, are going to have an uphill battle. So far, only E&B, Eve and BCO are even outside the same fantasy fare, but we've seen what happened to Jumpgate, Darkspace and even other much-hyped EA properties.

Sure, they will have subscribers, but will have enough to sustain their financial burnrate? Only time will tell.

Me? As long the number of subscribers is enough to pay the bills and bandwidth, I have nothing to worry about....except for those bastards looking to paint a bullseye on the side of my ship or to send me sailing skyhigh with a well place rocket launcher

Let me say this again, so that nothing is lost in the translation. When BCO comes out, it will beat the living crap out of ANY space sim MMOG (so far E&B and Eve) that is out at the same time. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee this 99.999%.

The underdog will always find a niche and then slowly start chipping away at the install base of others. To wit: DAOC.

I'd like to see how those two space sims can even think of suceeeding without (a) brand name recognition ( nothing new outside of the same old tired leveling system © ha, a pretty much abandoned genre, space sims

You can't even get gamers to buy space sims in the numbers required to recoup high dev costs, let alone get them to pony up $120+ a year to play the same tired old crap. I mean, seriously, has anything thought about this? Probably not.

BCO offers an all encompassing world with a plethora of game play types thrown in. THATS why it constantly (at least since Freespace, since that did more numbers than BC3K v2.0x, last time I checked) beats space-sims at retail. For every 100 copies these guys have to sell to recoup costs, I probably only have to sell, oh, maybe, well, 1.

Anyway, only time will tell.

[ 07-12-2002, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Supreme Cmdr ]

[Commander Elio Jason]

quote:

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Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

Pretty good read

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yep.

mesa wants to be a Gungan!

[LordDavid]

quote:

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Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr:

[*]

I am going to have dedicated servers that don't cater to all that rank/skill based nonsense if you don't want to pay attention to it. You logon, you play, you logoff. And since you can have more than one persona, you can have separate characters on different servers.

Sounds good to me.

Rant mode ON.

I don't like the skill based nonsense of Everquest, Anarchy Online, E&B, and mostly all other MMORPG's out there. It dosen't make sense to me why you have to kill something to get better at non combat abilities. This is what I like about Daggerfall, Morrowind, and even Ultima Online more than Everquest. You get better at what you practice and not have to just kill something to get better at a totally different skill. Look at what they said IN the Daggerfall game manual that came out in like 1995(?). "One of the biggest differences between Daggerfall and other role-playing games is the method for tabulating experience. It never made sense to us that a thief became a better thief after killing a troll, but he would never become better at lockpicking, no matter how much he practiced, until he killed another troll. If a thief practices and uses his backstabbing, lockpicking, climbing, and pickpocketing skills, he will become a better thief."

Also with the skill based characters of Everquest, it takes practically no skill at all. You just click rapidly on enemies weaker than you, you win, you get better, and you can attack stronger enemies. If you want to see the more cool stuff in the game, you need to spend ungodly amounts of time to get your level up high enough. If BCO has no skill increasing stuff, then people will have to actually use skill and BRAIN POWER to make a difference. People will have to form into groups/fleets if they want to make a big difference in the world. With no skill based leveling this will prevent people who have no life and spend 24/7 playing the game becoming unfairly superior to those who just casually play the game for fun.

Rant mode OFF

[ 07-12-2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: LordDavid ]

[Epsilon 5]

quote:

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I am going to have dedicated servers that don't cater to all that rank/skill based nonsense if you don't want to pay attention to it. You logon, you play, you logoff. And since you can have more than one persona, you can have separate characters on different servers

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I suppose more like an arena?

quote:

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Not only am I

not

interested in

any

additions outside of the existing fan base, but BCO, like all BC games, is designed and geared toward the fanbase playing style and the features that keep you guys coming back version after version.

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I never said the game should be done considering the mass market.

quote:

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I have

no

interest in making my games for the mass market. The closest I came to making it easy to play (different premise) was making as much features in BCM as mouse driven as possible, icons for some items (to reduce manual and keyboard sheet lookups etc). This again, is just for ease of use more than anything else. And according to the press and fan reviews, I think I succeeded in this regard.

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Well, I believe that while the game should not be for the mass market, it should be as user-friendly as possible for those that currently like the game, but wouldn't otherwise without the user-friendlyness. It's like linux : it's cool but too complex to understand.

quote:

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And since I'm notorious for enhancing BC games outside of bug fixes, that alone is a sure fire reason for someone to keep paying their dues each month to play - if they so choose.

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I have to agree. I suppose that will be true also for popular fan requests?

quote:

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With all MMOGs, as far as I'm aware, the only time you ever get new high-end stuff, is when you go out and buy add-ons etc.

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... and then it divides the world between those who have the basic game, and those who have one or more addons. That sucks.

quote:

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My strategy for BCO is only related to the fact that if it all works out (as I expect that it will, God willing), I don't have to do a new from-the-ground up product every two years. I'm dead serious about this. After BCTC, apart from the XBox title, thats it. BCO will be the last BC title ever developed from the ground up.

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Developper title dedication? That can hardly be anything else than good.

quote:

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And if there comes a time for a major overhaul, well then, thats why I'm a brilliantly mad

isn't it?

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lol! I suppose that will probably mostly be about (drastically) improving graphics over time.

quote:

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As the article says, most of these will either never see the light of day or will fail. Even those that do get released, are going to have an uphill battle. So far, only E&B, Eve and BCO are even outside the same fantasy fare, but we've seen what happened to Jumpgate, Darkspace and even other much-hyped EA properties. Sure, they will have subscribers, but will have enough to sustain their financial burnrate? Only time will tell.

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Reading the article, I was suprised how many MMOGs were out there, and, well, the proportion of those that I knew of

quote:

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Me? As long the number of subscribers is enough to pay the bills and bandwidth, I have nothing to worry about....except for those bastards looking to paint a bullseye on the side of my ship or to send me sailing skyhigh with a well place rocket launcher

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That's ok, but you have to admit that the more players there are, the more its potentially fun.

quote:

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Let me say this again, so that nothing is lost in the translation. When BCO comes out, it will beat the living crap out of ANY space sim MMOG (so far E&B and Eve) that is out at the same time. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee this 99.999%.

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I have never doubted your programming skills, I was just being... curious.

quote:

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The underdog will always find a niche and then slowly start chipping away at the install base of others. To wit: DAOC.

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Well I read that DAOC looks pretty much like an enhaced EQ... Am i right? Considering EQs popularity, doing something slightly better is a surefire

quote:

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I'd like to see how those two space sims can even think of suceeeding without (a) brand name recognition (

nothing new outside of the same old tired leveling system © ha, a pretty much abandoned genre,

space sims

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I guess time will only tell.

quote:

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You can't even get gamers to

buy

space sims in the numbers required to recoup high dev costs, let alone get them to pony up $120+ a year to play the same tired old crap. I mean, seriously, has anything thought about this? Probably not.

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Too many people working on the same thing. 2 heads may be better than 1, but if all heads think about the same thing, it won't do better.

quote:

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BCO offers an all encompassing world with a plethora of game play types thrown in. THATS why it

constantly

(at least since Freespace, since that did more numbers than BC3K v2.0x, last time I checked) beats space-sims at retail.

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...and because you don't have a publisher

quote:

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For every 100 copies these guys have to sell to recoup costs, I probably only have to sell, oh, maybe, well, 1.

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There's something between getting 100 heads working on a single thing (half of them who have no idea what they're doing) and getting under 20 skilled people who know what they're doing

[CommanderJohnson]

I think the main problem is game developers seem to focus on the idea that "the more you play, the better you should get, even if you totally suck". That's how most MUDs and Massive Multiplayer games work. The more time you play, the better you get/are able to get. You aren't rewarded for being good at anything, just how well you can repeat actions and how long you can play. That's why BCO seems like it's going to be great. If you suck, you die. If your good, you live. Nice idea, huh?

[Epsilon 5]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dredd:

I think the main problem is game developers seem to focus on the idea that "the more you play, the better you should get, even if you totally suck". That's how most MUDs and Massive Multiplayer games work. The more time you play, the better you get/are able to get. You aren't rewarded for being good at anything, just how well you can repeat actions and how long you can play. That's why BCO seems like it's going to be great. If you suck, you die. If your good, you live. Nice idea, huh?

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I hope BCO will have a mercantile skill (or similar) so I can buy vagrants half price

[LordDavid]

I agree with you all the way on what you just said Dredd.

[Supreme Cmdr]

quote:

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Originally posted by LordDavid:

Rant mode ON.

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I agree 100%

quote:

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Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

I never said the game should be done considering the mass market.

...

I suppose that will be true also for popular fan requests?

...

I suppose that will probably mostly be about (drastically) improving graphics over time.

...

That's ok, but you have to admit that the more players there are, the more its potentially fun.

...

I have never doubted your programming skills, I was just being... curious.

...

...and because you don't have a publisher

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[*]I never said you did

[*]BC games have several sensible fan requests. So, that question is moot. You must be under the impression that just because I welcome fan feedback and requests, I'm going to run off half cocked and implement them just because someone [fan] thinks I should. You haven't been around as most of the BC gamers (from the old school) who know me. Those who do, know that I consider fan suggestions/requests base on merit and feasibility. I'm not out to please everyone and never have strived to do such. Nor am I going to start now, tomorrow or next year. Its just never going to happen. Period.

[*]There's more to enhancing a game than just graphics. Go take a look at the VCF for BC3K v2.0x or BCM and refresh your memory wrt the BC tradition.

[*]Wrong. Fun is a not measured by the number of people on the server. It is measured by the quality of gameplay you engage in with those who are on the server. Whats the point of playing with 1000 other people if you're never going to see 32 of them at any one time?

PLUS, you can still play a 64 player mp game and never run into anyone. Hell, its hard enough keeping tracking of gamers on a 16 player server!

The notion of bigger being better is just that. A notion. And a rubbish one at that. I don't care if my technology can support 10,000 people per game world, I'm not going to do it. 1000 people per game world/server is more than enough. If you [gamer] want to play on different servers/worlds, create new avatars.

Playing on a server with a lot of gits and a bad connection is surely going to be a bad experience, no matter how you look at it.

[*]I never said you did. I think you got the impression that my post was primarily for your benefit. It wasn't. I was making general statements and addressing everyone wrt the subject matter herein. As such, I don't think I misinterpreted your original context. So, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

[*]heh, thats right. And even then, publisher or not, if something ends up being a collossal cluster****, you [developer] will still get blamed for it, regardless of who the publisher is.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dredd:

The more time you play, the better you get/are able to get. You aren't rewarded for being good at anything, just how well you can repeat actions and how long you can play. That's why BCO seems like it's going to be great. If you suck, you die. If your good, you live. Nice idea, huh?

---

Indeed.

My plan for BCO is similar to my plan for BCM/BCG mp. You play when you want and whether you play for a day or a month, you should be able to achieve your goal: have fun.

BCO is not about making a life online. I don't want someone paying $10+ per month and feeling like they have to play or they are not getting their money's worth.

What I want is someone to login, play for a few hours, and maybe a few hours or a day later, he's at a rank or stature where he feels he has achieved something. So what if you achieve the highest rank in the game, amass all the wealth possible. Is that going to stop you from playing? I doubt it. Why? Well, because for the average BC gamer, its about doing new things, capitalizing on experience and extending a playing experience for others. As such, it is not unfeasible for a play to be a very wealthy Terran/Trader and not want to build/buy yet another station or city, having people working for him, selling illegal items on the Black market etc etc. The way I am designing BCO is such that I want any one person to critically and in either good or bad ways, alter the course of the world history on that server. Hell, all it takes is a band of very powerfull players on a server to blow up each and every jump gate in a region and completely isolate it. Or to seige an entire planet or space region etc etc. Why won't you want to come back to see wtf is going on since your last carnage ridden session? Even if you just login, check the stats, laugh your ass off, and log off? I'd still be getting your $10+ a month regardless and as long as you're having fun, your gameplay style won't and shouldn't change - nor should you be on a perpertual treadmill.

And what happens when you logon one day and find that, without warning, I've erected a new station slam in the middle of a once empty region. Some would be thinking, trade. Others would be thinking, missile fodder.

OR one day, you're a marine protecting a base and a cargo pod of weapons and ammo drops from out of thin air?

What about staged fleet battles or runtime on-the-fly missions? One minute you're prancing around on a starbase shooting at sharks in the sea, the next you're on a shuttle bound for Mars to fight in a war you had nothing to do with....because some git promised you something if you helped him out?

What about the social aspect? Just the same way we come here, shoot the breeze, fight about differing opinions etc, this is also going to be encouraged and is my #1 priority for BCO. Even if a bunch of players get together to just sit around a rock on the bank of a river and chat crap (or pull up the ingame bulletin to see whats going on elsewhere in the game or external world) with someone's PRL protecting them, you don't have to play the game. Just sit around and chat, hang around etc.

.....right until someone lobs an OTS smack in the middle of the virtual camp.

Look, my plan for BCO is more ambitious than anything I have ever attempted before - in my entire life. Its not going to get done overnight, nor in the first iteration, but its going to get done. And its going to be kickass to the hilt. And hey, so what if we don't have 100K subscribers? I don't think I even know more than two dozen people in my entire life, let alone 100K strangers. Sure, the money is nice, but I like my life. So, 10K people is just as good as 100K people. It just so happens that BC has a massive fan base; so, its all good.

....man, I can't wait to screw this up.

[GREG MILLER]

I see Active Worlds being more competition for Sims Online, than StarWars Galaxies. Competiton that Active Worlds may loose. I see Galaxies strickly as a franchise/niche market only. And I am not so sure the franchise can support/save it.

Just for the record, my wife loves her Sims games, but has no plans to pay for Sims Online. Me, I am already sneak...I mean planning the BCO expense into the monthly budget.

[Epsilon 5]

quote:

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I never said you did

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No, but I was making sure you didn't thought that I was thiking that it should

quote:

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BC games have several

sensible

fan requests. So, that question is moot. You must be under the impression that just because I welcome fan feedback and requests, I'm going to run off half cocked and implement them just because someone [fan] thinks I should. You haven't been around as most of the BC gamers (from the old school) who know me. Those who do, know that I consider fan suggestions/requests

base on merit and feasibility

. I'm not out to please everyone and never have strived to do such. Nor am I going to start now, tomorrow or next year. Its just never going to happen. Period.

---

Well I was just "ensuring" that you would continue that way

quote:

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Wrong. Fun is a not measured by the number of people on the server. It is measured by the quality of gameplay you engage in with those who are on the server. Whats the point of playing with 1000 other people if you're never going to see 32 of them at any one time?

PLUS, you can still play a 64 player mp game and never run into anyone. Hell, its hard enough keeping tracking of gamers on a 16 player server!

---

Well that depends on the area where people can be - the density. I was just thinking about Aces High. Each time I played there was around 450 people on a server, but it was only fun about 10 mins in a whole hour, since the people are much too dispersed, and rarely gather in a small area.

quote:

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1000 people per game world/server is more than enough. If you [gamer] want to play on different servers/worlds, create new avatars.

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As I said, it's only a question of density.

quote:

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Playing on a server with a lot of gits and a bad connection is surely going to be a bad experience, no matter how you look at it.

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Well it's all about luck - sometimes you end on gits, sometimes you end on interesting peolple But then again, I'm a fleeter, I'll probably always be where large numbers are needed

quote:

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I never said you did.

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No, but I was making sure you didn't thought that I was thiking that

quote:

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I think you got the impression that my post was primarily for your benefit. It wasn't. I was making general statements and addressing everyone wrt the subject matter herein. As such, I don't think I misinterpreted your original context. So, I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

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I didn't. But since I asked, I don't see why I wouldn't comment on your reply.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dredd:

The more time you play, the better you get/are able to get. You aren't rewarded for being good at anything, just how well you can repeat actions and how long you can play. That's why BCO seems like it's going to be great. If you suck, you die. If your good, you live. Nice idea, huh?

---

Agree.

quote:

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My plan for BCO is similar to my plan for BCM/BCG mp. You play when

{SNIP}

you be on a perpertual treadmill.

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Yes, that's using your brainpower to make a difference. With numbers (associated numbers, such as fleets and corporations) the world can become very interesting indeed. but what about character development?

quote:

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And what happens when you logon one day and find that, without warning, I've erected a new station slam in the middle of a once empty region. Some would be thinking, trade. Others would be thinking, missile fodder.

OR one day, you're a marine protecting a base and a cargo pod of weapons and ammo drops from out of thin air?

What about staged fleet battles or runtime on-the-fly missions? One minute you're prancing around on a starbase shooting at sharks in the sea, the next you're on a shuttle bound for Mars to fight in a war you had nothing to do with....because some git promised you something if you helped him out?

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Yes, a dynamic universe, that's the most important thing.

quote:

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What about the social aspect? Just the same way we come here, shoot the breeze, fight about differing opinions etc, this is also going to be encouraged and is my #1 priority for BCO. Even if a bunch of players get together to just sit around a rock on the bank of a river and chat crap (or pull up the ingame bulletin to see whats going on elsewhere in the game or external world) with someone's PRL protecting them, you don't have to play the game. Just sit around and chat, hang around etc.

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Yes, that's another very important thing... umm... as I side question, were all ships supposed to have interiors in them? I dunno, but there's something with maknig a fleet meeting in the Operations room of your CO's craft which is landed on the middle of one of Mercury's ice-filled crater

quote:

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.....right until someone lobs an OTS smack in the middle of the virtual camp.

Well those OTS better be limited - 'cos they could be the source of many frustrations. Just a thought.

Look, my plan for BCO is more ambitious than anything I have ever attempted before - in my entire life. Its not going to get done overnight, nor in the first iteration, but its going to get done. And its going to be kickass to the hilt. And hey, so what if we don't have 100K subscribers? I don't think I even know more than two dozen people in my entire life, let alone 100K strangers. Sure, the money is nice, but I like my life. So, 10K people is just as good as 100K people. It just so happens that BC has a massive fan base; so, its all good.

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Hurry! stop wasting time reading this

quote:

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....man, I can't wait to screw this up.

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Umm??

[Epsilon 5]

quote:

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I see

Active Worlds

being

more

competition for

Sims Online

, than

StarWars Galaxies

. Competiton that Active Worlds may loose. I see

Galaxies

strickly as a franchise/niche market only. And I am not so sure the franchise can support/save it.

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Why do you talk about AW? I mean, AW is not a MMOG (it's not even a game and its.. well.. dying since they removed the tourists. And my cit expired

quote:

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Just for the record, my wife loves her Sims games, but has no plans to pay for Sims Online.

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Phew! that must be a relief you ya didn't it?

quote:

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Me, I am already sneak...I mean planning the BCO expense into the monthly budget.

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Hehehe.

[ 07-12-2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Epsilon 5 ]

[CommanderJohnson]

quote:

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BC games have several sensible fan requests...(other stuff)...Those who do, know that I consider fan suggestions/requests base on merit and feasibility.

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Where do we make "sensible fan requests"?

quote:

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....man, I can't wait to screw this up.

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Well, from your last response, I doubt your going to screw it up. Hell, if you just make it so that SKILL makes you more likely to beat someone than "time playing on server", i'll be having fun.

[GREG MILLER]

Originally posted by Epsilon 5:

quote:

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Why do you talk about AW? I mean, AW is not a MMOG (it's not even a

game

and its.. well.. dying since they removed the tourists. And my cit expired

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Because when I first got wind of this game last year, they were billing it as a huge social gathering. Is that not what AW is?

quote:

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Phew! that must be a relief you ya didn't it?

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I could really care less, as she will have her own capable machine by then.

[ 07-12-2002, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Greg Miller ]

[Epsilon 5]

quote:

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Because when I first got wind of this game last year, they were billing it as a huge social gathering. Is that not what AW is?

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Pretends to be... but it seems they have little intention on drastically improving Aw... I mean, buy a good game engine and make AW a game where you can build.

quote:

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I could really care less, as she will have her own capable machine by then.

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Well that's another relief

[ 07-12-2002, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: Epsilon 5 ]