Lotharr

I think Jedi Knight 2 was great....there really is something inherently cool about wading through a group of storm troopers with a light saber...or getting in a duel with some cracked out Jedi wanna be...or choking the crap out of an imperial officer, slamming him into the wall then throwing him off a ledge.....all without touching a weapon... I'm messing around with Arcanum and I guess that is liner too but depending on what choices you make for your character the game kinda changes as you go....but I'm a fantasy nut...

quote: Listen to history, she teaches a great many things, one of course is that socilialism is a dream, and as long as human beings are human, it will not and can not work Take your own advise and look at the past of our country....of course this makes you proud right? I guess people can look at something and see a lot of different things. Like I look at the great effectiveness of capitalism (sweat shops, debt that stunts growth, wars for money, glaring social inequities, inexcusable poverty levels for certain racial groups, etc) and I can't help but feel that somehow it is failing....

That article does make good points. However it is obviously biased in one direction so strongly it loses any hint of objectivity. I've read the same type of stuff in favor of gun control. In fact, I don't really need to go find anything (but I will) because not a week goes by that someone is not hurt by people with guns...so go turn on your TV and the bulk of my, and many others, side of this issue are there...in the body count. All I can say is I don't care if responsible people have guns. However they are finding there way into the hands of irresponsible people and causing serious tragedies. quote: Lothar, Not sure if you have figured it out yet, but I have. You are a socialist, mass transit, take away guns, jobs. You're a died in the wool socialist, maybe you and Menchise ought to get together and start your own country. I haven't decided what to call myself yet. But I'd agree with you on one thing...you seem to think you have this, and a lot of other things all figured out.... Yeah I do think mass transit is the way to go. As far as I have been able to tell it is safer, cleaner, and more user friendly for citizens. I spent a year in Korea and there system is awsome once you figure out what the hell is going on. Menchise lead the way! quote: You believe in the "good of society" not the "good of the individual". The constitution is built on individuality. Each person is responsible for themselves and their actions, you believe that the government, for the good of the people should control the peoples actions. I think both are connected. I think we have to balance the two in order to have more harmony. I also think 250+ years ago it was very easy to focus on the individual more than the group. But as we see denser populations our views and actions must acknowledge a new climate. quote: That is NOT constitutional, and your "the government has better weapons, so why even be armed" is the biggest crock of SH%t that I have heard in a while. Ok...dismiss it out of hand. That's is your right but because you dismiss the issue doesn't it remove it from reality. Every day citizens are being left behind by weapons R+D. You can thank the Republicans and the defense industry they support and make profit from for that. A lot of people love the Republicans because they keep the Army strong.....I think we need a strong Army myself. However I don't know where the madness and spending ends.... quote: HAving the citizens armed, makes it possible to cut down crime and other things due to deterrence. The HIGHEST crome rates are in cities with the strictest gun controls. When a Concealed carry law has been passed, crime has dropped in those cities consistently and drastically. When the citizens are armed, criminals are rather frightened of the fact that a victim might be armed and they may become the victim. For VERY good reason, it becomes a huge game of russian roulet for the criminal. I think I'll look into this to try and gain a clearer picture of the situation. But I'd say right now this is not accurate. quote: YOU'RE NOT LISTENING, AGAIN!!! Sure I do I just don't accept everything I hear as gospel guy. [ 05-28-2002, 10:56: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: My rant was when I was half asleep. Put simply, you can't ban everything that can be misused. I do that myself When an idea is given form it may make all the sense (and be progressive) in the world.....now move forward in time and the practicality is gone. That is where I think we find ourselves on this issue. quote: Kids kill kids ALL the time, and a vast majority of it is not done with guns, a kid of 16 just killed a 6 year old by tying him up, beating him to a pulp and then injecting him with a MASSIVE overdose of insulin, did you hear about that? If he had shot the kid, you would have heard about it all over the country. Did you hear about the kid in a local school here in Washington who took an entire class hostage with a set of kitchen knives? NO? well, if he had a gun, you would have heard about it. There are just loads of stories like that, did you hear about them? Maybe on your local news you would have, but NOT nationally, it'll only be national if the kid had a gun. I personally didn't hear about this but I bet a lot of others did. I'm glad this dude didn't have access to some real firepower or it may have been a lot worse. quote: Guns are dangerous, you bet, and so are cars, swimming pools, axes, chainsaws, screwdrivers, and of course boxcutters, who can forget about boxcutters? Maybe we ought to outlaw those and get them out of the hands of everyone. I'm sensing sarcasm here..... Unfortunately for this argument I can't massacre a group of people with a swimming pool. I do think cars are a waste and dangerous. The benefits from a national mass transit system are many. I don't think you put much weight into my previous posts. The people cannot stand against the weapons systems that the government will be employing soon. Cannon and musket....orbital weapons platforms and fully integrated battle suits....do you see the difference? quote: That would be the ENTIRE constitution of the United States. The constitution LIMITS the power of government to certain things, but to protect people from themselves is not and never was a part of the constitution. The people are responsible for themselves, the government is responsible TO the people, not FOR them. Yep and a new day is upon us, when the people through the government, are going to regulate even more behavior. Probably has something to do with more slob joe's (looks for Dragon Lady) per mile than 250 years ago. Sorry guy....this country has more city folk and your gonna feel it. It didn't matter that the Jews were disarmed the community accepted it. Probably because of racist views. Chinese and Stalin had to deal with a citizenry that could weigh in with conventional strength....that no longer applies....or it soon won't. I love the Constitution and I love the fact it can change. I just hope change will happen sooner with less of a body count.

Well parents have a lot of responsibility....but how much these days? Seems more and more if you don't lock up the kids your rolling the dice. This dude had preexisting conditions....now the parents are trying to turn a buck...sick $%@#@.

I'm not sure how much more I'm gonna post on this thread anymore but who knows. Menchise thanks for the link. Out of all this you seem to be only one that actually provides links for further information. Some call it propaganda but it shows (me at least) that you are interested in spreading ideas. You have been accused of living in a dream world. I hope you will take that to be a source of pride. Dreams carry the soul. And few have the courage to break from the pack.

quote: Power may not make right, but with enough power it doesn’t matter. Wrong. Employing power in a manner inconsistent with the rest of the worlds idea's on what is right and fair leads your country to isolation and inevitable destruction. quote: As far as putting a price tag on it goes, I rather like an increasing standard of living. Maybe this doesn’t appeal to you, but in this anyway most people would agree with me Me too, I just don't want it to be at the expense of my fellow citizens who's well being I am somehow compelled to care about. Must be that socialist brainwashing quote: Soback did a nice job of commenting on that here You would think so.... quote: And despite what the framers wanted the mob rules now as well. Maybe not as directly, but it’s still very clear. Shortsighted politicians who have more interest in winning the next election then in the long-term wellbeing of this country allow themselves to become puppets of the mob. Socialism is a prime example, it wins reelections so it must be good. Go figure. That's why if you ever want to be truly free and insure that tyranny and oppression is not governmental SOP the "mob" has to become more than that.

(Participatory Economics) Have heard of this do you know where I can get some info or do I have to go find a book?

Heh...all's fair....we annexed all that land and now it is being reclaimed in an unusual manner....

*dives for foxhole*

ouch...got both barrels

1)Love, compassion, strength of character.....things you may not know about personally. 2) Not every single person.....but at least they would have a fighting chance. 3) While you don't care about the people that keep your streets clean....that clean acknowledges what you don't appreciate. Do you know what it means to have a foundation? People do the best they can but the janitor who takes disease from me has no more honor then the man who develops the next OS. quote:Canada has close to NO POWER. If you look at most major international relations, Canada is not major. No one really cares about them, that's because they are weak. The US is strong, and we're capitalist (although the socialist/leftist ideals are really hurting us) Yeah we have power and look at the evil that is pulled to us. Power doesn't make right it makes a interesting bookmark in history. quote:How can a society have "advancement, profit, accomplishment, and value" with a socialist system? No one has yet been able to explain a REAL WORLD SCENARIO where a socialist society does all of those things. It seems sorta counter-intuitive since there will never be advancement when the people who work the hardest have the most taken away from them to help the poor ones. People will just stop working as hard and fall just below the average level of income so they get helped out and dont need to work. Why....most real progressives do it for the belief they have.....you put a price tag on it and I wonder how much real talent we have lost by corporate interpretation. If I chopped trees so well I doubt I'd care.

Dredd....I find that name so smooth...not like sand...HAHAHAHAHA!

Let the dice fall....

Why are you so surprised...I can't tell you how many commercials make me almost violent.... Nothing is sacred..... ORDEDER....HARMS! Makes you wonder.... [ 05-21-2002, 20:38: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote:To say that people cannot be trusted with freedom and the right to self defense is racist as far as I am concerned. Funny I find everyone equally worthless....heh heh...no but really I just don't know what to say to that.... quote: Sorry stud, but to be punished for the actions of .001% of the population is just plain ridiculous. You hear about it a lot because the media likes to make a big deal out of it. Maybe we should outlaw chainsaws, because you can cut an arm off or kill someone with it, maybe we ought to register ALL knives, those are deadly and are used just as often in killing and robberies as guns. Maybe we should outlaw backyard plastic pools, more children drown in those in a year, then get shot with a gun in a decadeI wonder why anyone would make a big deal outta little thing like kids killing kids.....damn media. quote: What else shall I protect my fellow citizens from? What other thing can citizens NOT be trusted with. And what tyrant put you in charge and told you that it is your job to protect people from themselves? Hey guy, I'm not in charge of but two things...jack and sh*t....and Jack left town....just talking ....show me in that document you claim to value so highly where that is such a crime. quote:READ THE CONSTITUTION!!! Because You're NOT getting it!! Gimme some time.....you referred me to other literature so I guess there is more to it. quote:As for gun control, Jaguar is right. I can take my car and plow down just about anyone I want that walks outside, and they'd be dead. Hell, i'd maintain that cars are more dangerous than guns because where I live, (1) kids can drive cars at 16, and (2) people can't really run very effectively from a car. At least if someone has a gun, you can SEE it when they have it and you MIGHT live through a hit, and you can hit the ground, run, take cover, or pull out a gun. A car, on the other hand, you don't necessarily see the person coming as easily, you aren't going to be able to dodge it by running, and if it hits you fast enough your dead. Then on the driving issue, cars kill a lot of people too in irresponsible hands. It kills the driver, passengers, people in other cars. Why shouldn't CARS be outlawed? The "accidental death" argument is the WEAKEST IN EXISTANCE for gun control. So why not get rid EVERYTHING that is misused. Lets get rid of household cleaners cause they can be used to make BOMBS. Lets get rid of shoes because you can hide bombs in them. If people who advocate strong gun control take their logic to its conclusion, we would have the same sort of sanctions on ourselves that the UN has on Iraq. What are you talking about!!! Hee hee your fun. accidental death--what are you talking about? The rest is well....what are you talking about?

quote: do you have children??? if you do do YOU send them through public school??? or do you send them thru private/ homeschool? No...one day maybe but not right now. I would send them to private or home schooling if I could...public school is an unsafe joke if you want your kids to have strong academic background before college...depending on where you live. If you live in a rich neighborhood you just hope your kid doesn't become a beer swilling, date rapin, jock scumbag, yuppie puke....not that there is anything wrong with beer swilling....heh heh....no but really.....I just don't think hanging out with a bunch of over privileged kids is all that healthy. On the other hand lower income area's teach a sort of brutal racial segregation type of thing....I went to school in both kinds of places and I'll tell you I have more respect for the lower income personnel...they have guts and honesty....however they tend to pack weapons and I don't want my kid takin a bullet because someone disted some else's colors..... And on either side of the house you have to worry about that young person who has been so tormented by his peers and neglected by his family that he ambushes the school with a high-powered rifle one fine spring morning. I think I'll move to Canada to let the kids grow up.... I never said demonize weapons...your job makes it practical and necessary to carry firearms....no one is saying having a weapon makes you bad. I have two myself. My real point is you can't fight the government with conventional weapons and people are too irresponsible to manage this freedom properly. Unless you consider those dead kids acceptable losses….it is just the “mob” right……

Just to see if I could follow directions....I did it and if you pull back the middle bottom part it kinda does look like two towers on fire....I wouldn't have even seen it if the picture on the link was right next to the bill to suggest the connection.

quote: How is capitalism self-destructive? It seams that, if we take Canada as an example (not to mention the various attempts at communism around the world), it’s socialism that’s self-destructive. Because in the end you value people for their ability to produce and consume when a human is capable of so much more. Right now because we have so much of the world's market we can waste people....we can and do write them off. This will not last. You are blinded by an ego grown from a superior world position....but ourselves, like many other civilizations, will realize this mistake born of arrogance will undo us...but hopefully not before it is too late. It's funny you say Canada is unsuccessful....all the posts that I've read from Canadian’s have been for the most part insightful and compassionate. And I'm not sure but I haven't read or seen anything telling me we are being overrun by Canadian immigrants....that seems to be happening from our southern neighbors that got the short end of the economic stick... So what is success....I think a society can have advancement, profit, accomplishment and value without it being at the expense of its neighbors and citizens. Of course you have to genuinely care about people in general to understand what I'm saying. [ 05-21-2002, 09:27: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

If the only way to get a hold of a weapon were through having access to enormous amounts of time, money, contacts, and nerves....why would these people want to waste bullets on your friends? In this reality I bet the statistics would talk about having more luck getting struck by lightning etc etc..... But today....how would you feel about sending your kid through public school (that is or course if you care about the public in the first place)? And let me ask you something.....do you think you really know all your co-workers? And further, I don't know what ethnicity you are and I don't want too....but does it make you feel safe having groups of paranoid supremacist groups running around cleaning assault rifles and talking about a brave new world? Ever feel like your about to get ranted at heh heh....

Jag I think you and a lot of other people are already slaves....but not for the reasons you think. I have started reading the Federalist papers and will continue. And in my opinion one of the reasons health care costs are so high is because the gluttonous nature of our culture calls for the vast intake of crap food and....well....hell you name it bigger is better right? In your opinion I am a slave, but I say you cling to outdated ideologies and others rationalize an exploitative and self destructive mentality....sorry but I don't plan on following you down that road....but we'll see....

quote: On the other hand, if there are some absolutes of humanity that transcend time, then societies must be measured by them. Roger that....

quote: This isnt something I care about enough to argue at length, if you dont believe me, thats fine, but please, no more incomprehensible sarcastic analogies (if that was an analogy, its hard to tell). Heh heh always true to form....it is good to see that something has an intrinsic value....heh... quote: Maybe its getting late, but that doesnt make any sense. Humans (not just the mob) are programmed in number of ways, some of which reinforce social controls. As an example, feeling empathy for someone is not a learned trait, at least not entirely, but instead one that (almost) all humans are born with. I say almost all because sociopaths dont (among other things) feel empathy for others. Yepyou leave enough open in this thought for me to try to fill....except where you would have people think that caring about their fellow citizens is a byproduct of programming, I'd say this is something that is inherent in the human condition...the only conditioning I see is trying to have people accept their fellow humans terrible, and exploitive existence, at the hands of policy put out by certain eco-political programs.... But get some rest troop you sound tired.

quote: Oh, I'm not saying that its all hardwired, but people do have a natural tendency to feel empathy and such. Its not a big thing, and it can be at least partially overcome by those of us who want to, but there is an inborn tendency in people to act in a moral manner. Why do you think that such reactions are universal even when morals are not? Then what are you saying? Nope not a big thing at all ....in this country someone can easily change the channel and watch.....curling or something (I really do like Canada).100+ channels to occupy time and slip past any "moral feelings"......not a big deal at all. Are those inborn idea's "humanity"? I thought you said these were social controls somehow programmed into the mob?

quote: Sure, but mostly what I am talking about is the kind of hardwired nonsense that supports morals. People tend to feel empathy for those in pain, to feel guilt about doing something wrong, to feel squeamish at the sight of blood, that kind of thing. Things like this tend to make people react morally, perhaps making people ÔÇ£intrinsically goodÔÇØ as you say. Yeah when I read about illegal immigrant labor (brought in country by domestic corporations) more or less "encouraged" to work 12+ hour days for much less then minimum wage and in conditions that..well I know that doesn't phase you....develop disorders and sustain injuries that will destroy their working ability permanently and are then deported.....yeah I feel something....must be hardwiring....that must be it.