Lotharr

quote: Oh, I'm not really disagreeing with you at all on this one, most people are quite firmly in the grasp of social controls, and a good part of that is biological. Just remember that even if most people act in a moral manner, some of their morals may vary from your own, even to the point of being quite horrid. Yup...very subjective stuff....would you care to elaborate on biology being involved in social control? quote: Just remember that even if most people act in a moral manner, some of their morals may vary from your own, even to the point of being quite horrid. yeah got that....page 2 about 8 posts up.... [ 05-19-2002, 01:20: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

I thought it was a really good flick.....the special effects make me want them to skip talking in general...heh heh.... But I would like to take a moment to say I think ushers should be issued a light-baton to use in keeping the peace. Those who embrace the dark side and feel they need to voice there opinions during the course of the movie should be struck down by the righteous fist of the republic.er...theater!

quote: Well, at least you know what manifestation means heh heh....for all that intelligence you seem to have missed the class on how to play nice with others....it's ok....at least your consistent... quote: None the less, my argument stands. Morality has no intrinsic value because it is nothing but a product of social controls (the same as this underlying goodness you talk about) and is variable depending on who you ask. A thief may very well feel justified in stealing from those who are more successful because of some sense of being wronged. This thief thinks that he is right in what he does, does that make it so? Most people would argue no, as they would look at it through there own personal sense of morality. ok....so does mine.

quote: To go over it again, morality is a form of social control. ItÔÇÖs only validity is that which any individual gives it. Because, as a whole, moral action promotes a successful society it is necessary that most people have some type of morality. Your personal brand of morality (no doubt shared by many, but none the less only a single example) may require that everyone be placed on an equal footing (or some approximation there of), but nothing necessitates that all moral people share this view. Furthermore, because morality is totally artificial and without any intrinsic value itÔÇÖs validity is limited by its adherence. If I feel that something you consider amoral is ok, then as far as I'm concerned its ok. Period. I have to disagree with this statement. In my opinion morality in a societal sense is a manifestation of an underlying good in human nature. I guess it comes down to if you believe people are good or bad or programmable. While highly programmable I choose to operate under the assumption that people have a inherent good nature and as more time goes by we will see this take form in various intuitions. I plan on doing some research. Newts at 5:00pm c sound good?

quote: Because in that case Dragon Lady you can shut your mouth and get back in kitchen..I would prefer to have you here discussing points and ideas but we can just let Darwin take care of that. (no offense intended, and if I singled you out by gender and that makes you feel uncomfortable let me know and I wont do it again) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thats just low. The fact that you would attack my gender in an intellectual debate shows either your lack of sophistication or a desperate need to discredit my ideas. There was no attack. A simple illustration how you might (and others do have) have a special interest in having morality mixed in with politics and economics. Life is not about making the most money and establishing the best system of production. Life, in my and others opinion, is about living a good, fair, and just life. Moral people want this for everyone not just the privileged. But your arguments show a lot of contempt for your fellow citizens and that it something I cannot stand by and watch without commenting. But like I said I won't choose to make comments in this format again. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And I am sick of hearing about twisted Darwinist views on the way that society should work. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not how it should work, how it does and has worked. Those societies that are based at least in part on survival of the fittest are the ones that last. Period. The longest lasting civilizations have always been oppressive and have always been destroyed or changed. England is a good example of this. Over time the people have changed government from a very small ruling elite to more participation by the people. This is the natural way of things....an ongoing moral growth of people and societies. Everyday people wonder why other people live such horrible lives. They either stick their head in the ground and maybe even defend a morally bankrupt system of they try to change things. quote: It sets the goals of the document, it tells you what the following document is supposed to do, it is NOT a part of the document itself. Just as a master thesis or anything else will tell you what it intends to prove, it is NOT PART of the document, it just tells you what it's goals are. Just FYI, the General welfare clause has been perverted by liberals and yes, socialists to mean just what you think it means, when in fact that is not what it means at all. It states goals, nothing more. Preamble - A preliminary statement, especially the introduction to a formal document that serves to explain its purpose. Ok but an introduction to a letter is still part of a letter. I'm not sure how you can leave this part out. The wonderful thing about the Constitution is the goals are put out in the beginning and the rest is an attempt to empower the people to fairly set a system to achieve that goal. The statement is what it is....there is no ambiguity like Amendment two. "Promote the general welfare"....I really don't know how one can twist this....it is what it is.

You sell the human race short. We are here now and live in a system that works by sacrificing a portion of it's population and drawing in the less fortunate and exploiting them. There are people who will never have a shot at the expensive items or life style of the same because all around them is a way of life and environment that tells them that they have reached the end of their potential. The best they can hope for is to slave away and pray their kids can have a better life then they do. And these are your fellow citizens. However.by previous posts I can some out there could care less about what that means. It is sad that you ignore this truth of this American reality....or accept it and choose to write those people off. Your system needs an underclass bottom line. And for the time being you have a large crowd to draw upon. Poor people from other counties meet this requirement and work jobs for pay and in conditions other Americans would never dream of. You may think its ok but I do not. And I am sick of hearing about twisted Darwinist views on the way that society should work. Because in that case Dragon Lady you can shut your mouth and get back in kitchen..I would prefer to have you here discussing points and ideas but we can just let Darwin take care of that. (no offense intended, and if I singled you out by gender and that makes you feel uncomfortable let me know and I wont do it again) THE PREAMBLE We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. This is the heart of the Constitution the rest is a plan for the people to make the rules to realize this end. and oh my.... IT SAYS GENERAL WELFARE!!! WERE THE FOUNDING FATHERS SOCIALISTS AT HEART!?! There is no mention of a ruling elite using a mob to their own ends. The mob is what keeps the higher end of society in power and comfortable and what will one day bring them down.sorry but that is moral side of human survival of the fittest.believe itpeople are looking for ways to be as moral as possible (well most) and it causes them to do all kinds of horrible things to each other.. amazing eh? So if anyone out their wants to be a true American why dont you get with the program. [ 05-16-2002, 21:26: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Heh heh that's a good point ....just that last one.... [ 05-15-2002, 15:48: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

heh heh level 65 on second try....and I closed it out......for today.....

At the risk of being shot as a traitor...heh heh....I think it would be of interest to consider what the USSR might have been if a crazy mo' frappy named Stalin hadn't taken power....but who knows...

I never said that you personally were not responsible. In fact I bet the way you handle your guns would be a prime example of how one should take care of their weapons. It's the rest of (to quote Dragon Lady and others) the mob....your fellow citizens that are going to ruin it for you. They already are...Joe Slob has a gun and won't put it away properly....and because joe slob doesn't give a damn about his kids, joe slob jr. will find that weapon and put it to what he thinks is good use. And I'm sorry that you are so paranoid about the government....I have my moments and people look at me strange..but guy....I just don't know what to tell you. [ 05-15-2002, 13:06: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Heh heh...it's a sick world...heh...did you see the grill of the month button....

quote: I am so glad that you guys are not in government. Right back at you. And as far as everyone being punished for the actions of the few. Yep....that's the sad truth. Not everyone has a gun but everyone has a car. We see the abuse of the automobile in a different light as the abuse of firearms and that is just the way it is. I personally think that we, as a society, should switch to mass transit but that just wouldn't be American would it? No one wants to surrender their SUV because they NEED it to haul a cafe' mocha from home to work. The same people that shouldn't own a blender have a car and it is scary and it kills. But we take the body count as acceptable loses...don't ask me why I think it is jacked up. quote: You are little children to be told who what when where and how, and for some reason you really like it. It's easy to let someone else be responsible, it's easy to allow someone else to tell you what and how you are going to do things. It's SO easy to NOT be responsible for your actions. You are a little child who sits in the corner of the room with his toys and hits anyone that tries to take it. In this context you are a child because one day.....to use your analogy....dad is going to realize what your playing with and take it away. I would prefer we keep this from becoming insulting but you are the moderator here and you set the standards of conduct. I believe in keeping insults out of a real discussion but I will meet any standard you set.

If you don't vote for powdered toast man your just wrong

If you want to know my thoughts on this check the other thread.

quote: Go back to an old thread (I believe it was Knife Control) where I posted at length from the Federalist Papers. The militia was a term of art used to describe ordinary people who were called on to protect the region in times of trouble. The Founding Fathers discussed at length the difference between the militia and a standing army. It is clear from their writings that they are referring to ordinary citizens with arms who defend their property when no other help is available. This is the only point I would be willing to consider (I think) in why people should keep weapons. But once again different time and tech. I think I will go back and take a look. I just talked with my commanding officer today about this. He said he thought amendment two was about being able to raise a citizen army if threatened from abroad. I can respect this but not agree. One of his first memories with his G-Pa is learning how to shoot with a .22 rifle. ( Much like my father and me. But we threw knives and later we shot). . . However I cannot put these warm memories in front of the picture of dead school kids and not see the bodies.

No real criminal has any interest in your family. Just nut jobs and bare hands is a much more satisfying way to deal with those. Do what ever you want...feel how you want to feel...express your feelings...that's what the Constitution is all about. But don't allow your weapon to fall into the hands of anyone that would hurt my MY KID or I WILL HOLD YOU PERSONNALLY RESPONSIBLE...and I study martial arts you know.... And the police force is now buying military hardware...so you could say I feel over safe.

quote: Sure, as soon as someone comes up with a reliable and economically feasible form of mass conditioning they will be the thrall rather then the mob. HA HA!! ...as I was.... quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- look at the demographics and you canÔÇÖt fail to realize that success is always at the expense of others. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't beleive that. Won't beleive it for a minute. Not "always at the expense of others." Expense meaning detriment in this case. I won't either. quote: This, by the way, is an abuse of power by the upper management, they control the company and thus they control how much they get paid and how much the laborers get paid, and itÔÇÖs never fair. Here in lies much of the meat of the issue and why it smacks in the face of fair play values most Americans believe in.

Grayfox...good point...but I have feet that will carry me like the wind Thanks EP5....yeah just reinforces my point. [ 05-14-2002, 19:36: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: I know what I choose to be. And I have the right to do so, according to the constitution of the United States. And according to that document, those are god given rights that cannot be taken away. The first 10 amendments are inviolate, they CANNOT be changed, without those first 10 amendments to the constitution, the United States would not exist. Those first 10 CANNOT be changed, that is why they are called " The Bill of Rights" They are god given rights, and cannot be taken away by man. That is an inaccurate statement. I have in front of me a copy of the Constitution of the United States (FM 22-100 appendix F). Please read Article V then read the preamble to the Bill of Rights. The bill of rights are all amendments themselves. The only thing that cannot be changed by any amendment is "and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate" I am not afraid of guns. I am afraid of the person behind it. I am afraid of my countrymen (all genders) and what they do to each other every day. I am afraid of a group of people who defend an idea that costs innocent lives every day. You'll find if you took the same money spent on the war on drugs and applied that to keeping illegal arms out only very well financed criminals would be able to have any real weapons. These people would then in turn commit crimes that are well thought out and probably limit civilian casualties. They will not go crazy and start blasting their co works. Then the only thing you really have to worry about is hand to hand....sounds good to me. I plan on carrying a baton when I get out....if they won't let me have that I also plan on studying martial arts. I'm not afraid.

Do you think that the mob can ever be more than just the mob? Maybe if there was no mob than these problems might not be so severe.

Thank you. You are dead on about many of these so called patriots. And I agree with all aspects of the remaining text. It was disturbing and insightful. I am not proud of a lot of this country's history but that should make us humble....and focus us on seeking a better way for the future and not reliving the injustices of the past. As for putting something on the line before you b*itch I think we could all agree that this would be a good thing. PS--Hey EP5 anytime you want a tour through the hood you let me know....I squatted down in Detroit for a while and I know where we can get some gats for cheap [ 05-14-2002, 14:41: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

One also has to keep in mind that the "bureaucratic limiting" of people being able to buy weapons is a manifestation of the people's desire to stop the violence. Constitutional or no that is what is be represented. So an amendment may be in order. Or the Supreme Court could interpret that only the national guard is authorized to pack that kind of smoke. The kids.... One problem at a time. I didn't create a Jewish state in the middle of hostile forces so please don't ask me about that. I have no answer to give other than it is a terrible situation and I hope they can work it out so that the violence ends. I can speak only for the young guy who wants to play cops and robbers with his friends. Or, for whatever reason he's goanna take dad's gun to school to teach some people a lesson. Thank god they didn't have access to a fully operational assault rifle with ammo to spare. ***my opinion*** I am SICK of people thinking there is some moral high ground for citizens to pack military grade or lethal devices to defend against "the government" while countless lives are being lost to the stupidity of people who shouldn't be allowed to own a blender let alone a fully automatic assault rifle. Anyone can see that if the "government" ignored the Constitution we would be in a world of doo doo and there wouldn't be a thing some rifles auto or not could do about it. One would have to be able to field a couple of heavy divisions with organic assets mixed in with the intelligence capacity to coordinate them properly. The only one who can do that is "the government". People think that they could hide in the hills like Red Dawn and fight the oppressors....sorry bub they have already spotted your camp from orbit and a tomahawk will be there shortly. The SF squad will follow after that. A twelve man team with the right gear and training will annihilate the noble freedom fighters on their turf or wherever.... The only thing people can do in the end is to have unity and compassion for and with their neighbors. Mix that with more access to the government for the people and this scenario should never happen. Or issue every citizen a tank.... I think it was clear what the founding fathers wanted but, in my opinion, there is no safe way to keep the citizens armed properly to do the job. Muskets and cannon are one thing...orbital weapons platforms and fully integrated battle suits (it's in the works) are another. Everything changes and we better look at how we can bring about that change in a manner consistent with the founding fathers intent...not live in a past that is still being debated. ***end*** [ 05-14-2002, 10:34: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Kush...you actually make me want to like Canadian's.....heh heh.....New Michigan...has a ring to it.... quote: You could a) Re-distribute wealth a little, give these people a monthly allowance. They go out and lease a television set. (The ones that aren't too bright lease the TV set.) The money gets put back into the economy through i) retailer for sale of television set ii) interest to leasing firm iii) manufacturer of television set etc. so on Sorry will have to disagree...giving people any thing without a cut off is creating a welfare state type o deal....not good. Must motivate. quote: You could Give the poor bastard nothing. They go out, break into someone's house. Beat up the owner, and steal the television set. Now we're paying all over the place. In insurance goes up. We pay for the hospital bills, the police report. That's an over simplification of a very complex process that happens every day in a capitalist society. Certain countries use a, certain countries use b. All I'll say is, I'm going to feel much safer walking the streets of Brussels than I ever felt walking through South Central LA. There's a reason why there are low crime rates in certain countries and high crime rates in others. Is it socialists that are responsible, or Keynesians? You be the judge. Look all you have to do is the next time your in L.A. is buy a gun and walk like you own the place....no matter what you win...heh heh.... Good points. quote: Heeeeey... I drink lots of wine, and I make tons of crappy art! So what! Nothin....I'll get there one day

Look all I'm trying to say is that I don't want to be at the mercy of the state like any other independent American.......but little kids are being killed...

How about we change the mob from an unstable violent element to respectable folks we would like, and have, to live next to?