Lotharr

quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amendment II - A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What part of that is NOT understandable? Read it again, and again, and again, and then tell me what it says. Seems pretty simple and to the point to me. The right to keep and bear arms, bear means to carry, in other words, you are allowed ANY weapon that you can carry. Common sense, WORDS MEAN THINGS!! None of this "it depends on what the meaning of IS, is" Is this SO hard to understand? I should hope not. So then I can buy and carry a nuke in briefcase right? Are you starting to see how when you really start looking at what the words mean, in context of today as opposed to 250 years ago, they start to lose that common sense feel you want me to go for? And question...if the words are so simple why does it take a PHD to tell us what it means?

quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Guns are cool and guns are fun but they represent a clear and present danger to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That whole statement is so full of holes that is unreal. Really? I thought it was pretty good and to the point. quote: Guns are for the defense and preservation of Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To think otherwise is falling into the socialist trap and breaking your oath to the constitution. Yes.the guns in the Army. The only thing a gun at home is doing is endangering a young person's life so the owner can feel empowered and have a little fun once in a while. I own two myself but if I have kids I'll take maximum precautions. Unless the wife puts her foot down that is However people on a national level are too irresponsible and put too many lives in danger. So if they told me to turn in my six shooter I would. After they gave me proper compensation. quote: You took an oath to that document, I advise you read it again and figure out exactly what you are defending, if you are unable to do honestly believe in that oath and the document you took that oath to, then you need to get out of the military and into the civilian world. You are entitled to think whatever you want about the oath I took. That is your right. As it is mine to think what I will about firearms in America. quote: The founding fathers put the 2nd amendment in there for a reason, and it is not for civilians to have Nuclear weapons or whatever. BEAR arms, which means that you are allowed ANY weapon that you can carry, as long as it is NOT a WMD. (Weapon of Mass Destruction) Funny I didn't read that clause. If I want to buy a nuke I should be able to because it is not written into the Constitution as such.....we were in a arms race with the Soviets right..etc.

This looks like the right spot.... I'll let the Supreme Court tell me what the second amendment says. That is their job. To protect the Constitution and interpret its’ meaning in the context of today. I want you to know something. I like guns. Guns are cool and guns are fun. However they are dangerous. Fire is a wonderful thing but not in the hands of a pyro. You think any of your weapons are going to stop a tank? You think that if the military decided it wanted to hold Washington they couldn't do it? You think the military would even be able to successfully "take over" without imploding? Anyway the Army can't really take over anything they are too small and the country is too big. Sure they could project force around the nation but lets be real here. There is no way that this country would stand for that. And not because we are armed with hunting rifles and handguns. It wouldn't happen because the citizen soldiers that comprise our military won't allow it to happen. And I don't know how current you stay with weapons tech but trust me when I tell you the weapons of today are going to be child’s play compared to tomorrow. Unless the NRA or a private citizen can finance a satellite launch into orbit of a device with the capacity to drop munitions with pin point accuracy……you can stock all the fire power you want....it won't change a thing if the US Army wants to project force on your house. The NRA does teach gun safety. The NRA is composed of mostly responsible personnel. The NRA is misguided and using an obsolete philosophy. Our founding fathers never had to deal with a nuke. Maybe then they would have understood the quantum leap in power the state wields over the population from their time to ours. And maybe they would have reworded the language. The fact is that a nut with a knife cannot set up kill zones around a school. Or walk into a daycare center for some ethnic cleansing. Guns are cool and guns are fun but they represent a clear and present danger to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I feel that I have a pretty good understanding of what the NRA is about. However I plan on conducting some research in the immediate future. I am not authorized to not believe in the second amendment. I feel that I made a joke. If you were offended I apologize. I have been working very hard to take into account the sensitivities of others and will continue to do so. If this brand of humor (in reference to this organization) is inappropriate I will refrain from posting such material in the future. We can start a new topic or talk right here.

So how do you get away from those who make welfare a lifestyle? I don't know about you but a person should have to do something worth while for society. Not just drink wine and make crappy art heh heh....

quote: I’m back Sorry if I sounded negative Lotharr, I though your ideas were interesting, though I don’t really agree with them. No, I didn't much expect anyone would....however if something like this could be pulled off correctly I think the social benefits would be amazing. I stand by my opinion of ethnic relations in the country. I still feel like if something is not done to try and bring people together, many problems will be addressed in a fashion consistent with bureaucracy . Slow and painful. But maybe that’s the way it has to be. But personally I’m sick of it. I don't mind negativity, yours was constructive, I'm just glad you never attempted to make me look stupid....and, in my opinion, that is an easy thing to do when a person is in pure brainstorm mode.

All true.... I have been reviewing old posts a lot and haven't hit any on this yet (lots of material) but I bet itÔÇÖs there. I haven't had the chance to study all the those different groups yet.....I will in the future... But the best argument IÔÇÖve heard for capitalism (in general) is that it is more in tune with human nature (cynical) and this system increases total goods and services of a country over time. The best argument I've heard against socialism (in general) is that the sum of all goods and services of a country under socialism will never increase...just erode over time. If this is just too broad a topic I understand. I would like some thoughts on those two ideaÔÇÖs above. And if anyone would like to modify the topic to....the ongoing debate....that would be cool.

quote: Sorry people, I really don't want Mr. Delusional Dementia knowing how to operate weapons Heh...too late....ever get a chance to talk to an infantry soldier from the 82 Airborne....just don't make any sudden movements and you should be ok....heh heh.... No...but really....between the NRA and the great gangland breeding grounds we are knee deep in it......

Since we can't talk about anything else without this coming up would anyone like to participate here? MLK Jr thought that capitalism was not a moral system (oversimplification) and I agree. Everyone is so hot to say that selfishness is the default human setting so capitalism is most in tune with human nature. How about there's not much of a choice when billions of dollars annually are dumped into buying propaganda. Being moral in a economic sense is a challenge but I wonder why no one else thinks it's worth the effort. I personally think it's just laziness. On the other hand socialism has a lot of limiting factors in my opinion. How do you motivate a person to excel? WhereÔÇÖs the drive? I hope to get some feed back. My beliefs are not static and I like to explore idea's.

The NRA weeps today as their auction possibilities go up in smoke..heh heh...

Well.....it might be hard to look at my idea's in a positive way but at least I stayed on topic....I at least made the min standard...heh heh...

Like I said...just checking things out...I don't have all the answers....but... quote: I think your nuts, such a program would not and could not work. You can not shove people together on purpose and expect them to "just get along". There is always resistance to change but the amount of pain for everyone could be reduced greatly with a well thought out, and properly executed plan. quote: But this is beside the point, even if we had teams of people doing low skill technology tasks (I'm assuming you mean computer jobs as I can think of no other ÔÇ£technology workÔÇØ that requires less real skill), what kind of tasks would they do? All kinds....from auto repair to office assistant to basic computers...who knows. Perhaps industries would like to have these people come work for them (for cheap) and give them training and possiblly recruit after their term of servce was up. quote: I would choose Canada or England, probably England because Canada is so damn socialist (donÔÇÖt get me started on that one). I'm not sure about England, but I donÔÇÖt doubt that Canada would be delighted to have a sudden influx of skilled workers. I'm not sure. If enough people started coming in wouldn't the workers already there resist? And who do you think would get priority. quote: Oh please! Your being ridiculous with this. ItÔÇÖs just not feasible to require such camps to conform to precise (or even rough) racial demographics. First of all it would involve shipping people (at the governmentÔÇÖs expense, of course) from one side of the country to another (and it doesnÔÇÖt bear to think about having to ship people to or from Alaska or Hawaii). This is would be ghastly expensive (especially if you consider the startup costs to build the labor camps), but we also have to think about the number of personnel needed to coordinate the whole operation, we are talking about a lot of government paychecks to be paid, and in general a lot of waist. Oh, and exactly how necessary is adherence to the demographics anyway? Does it really matter if there is a proper proportion of blacks, Hispanic, Jewish, and all the other ethnic groups? Or is it more important that people simply get to know (and value) members of ethnic groups besides there own? A good point.....state level would probably be a better way to go with this. The families wouldn't be that seperated...not too bad long distance etc.....because truly when does a Oklahoman Native American (not that this group could be touched but good example) hang out with a Jewish New Yorker.... quote: Kids? I would never have kids myself, but exactly how old are we talking about? When I read your previous posts I got the impression that you intended to employ people who were relatively young (maybe less then 25) but out of high school. If we are talking about using people younger then this we have to deal with even less skilled labor. Never? Yeah out of high school is good. Young enough to be impressionable but not too immature to handle the situation. quote: Oh, and by the way, Jaguar is completely right (as usual from what IÔÇÖve seen so far). Well if you think I'm off the chain on this idea we could just end now. I don't want to waste anyone's time. You have been responding so I thought you were getting something out of this. I already got two good points to think about from you. [ 05-11-2002, 01:06: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Heh heh right on both counts! Oklahoma is like one big farm...a verrrry big farm. And I can't wait to leave.... And I am a nut...or haven't you noticed But I do believe something needs to bring people together....and we're are just throwing idea's around.... Like I said nothing will change until there comes a need.....and that time is not now for the people who make policy in this country.... But maybe one day....

quote: Rather then making these camps (and yes, I'm going to keep using that word) an onus that people will want to avoid (as a low pay forced labor system would no doubt be) a desirable advantage should be attached. I would suggest integrating a college level education system where people who join a camp and get a place to live, a job, and an education. Sure, there are problems that would have to be worked out and (like you) I could go on and on about how it would be implemented, but it would work Well a two year tour for a person is long enough. Where you thinking of something shorter or longer? College programs are good but that should be during their own time. I don't know what to tell you on low paid labor camps.....I pictured it more technology work...People should have to sacrifice their life style for a while...whatever that might be. For the people with a high standard of living this would be a serious challenge. For others it would be an amazing step up but no less of a challenge. Asking someone (who never had to before) to get a long with others is a serious challenge. Only through supervision and mentors would this have a shot of succeeding. quote: Even though the targeted population would be less then forced labor camps, the political fallout and skilled labor exodus (which would, by the way, include more then just rich kids) would be avoided and it would provide an education for individuals who would otherwise be unable to get one. I don't know why you think this would happen....where does a pissed off American go to live? I get the feeling other countries may not be all that happy about disgruntled Americans trying to migrate. I could be wrong on this. I'm not sure. Do you think cause your kid had to do 2 years civil work for the country you would be so offended you would just pack up and leave? Hell I bet a lot of parents would be glad to have the break and not pay the bills for a while...but you never know. quote: Oh, about racial integration in the camps, itÔÇÖs a good idea but should only be a loose requirement. If camps had to have even an approximate of our countries racial percentages then it would involve shipping people around simply to fill quotas and denying people entrance (if there were insufficient slots, as there would be in the beginning) based solely on race. Some type of racial integration would be important, but strict adherence to racial demographics would be a mistake I have to disagree. I feel that in order to really understand who people are you have to have exposure to every other major minority. With no side being too large and no one minor minority isolated. Keep in mind also that a lot of people come from places where you talk with your fists. They have to be made welcome and supervised by a person with whom they can identify. However they also have to work with people of other cultures in a respectful way. There has to be something done with personnel that are too disruptive. And putting someone's kid next to a potential violent nut case is also unacceptable. That I think would be the truly tricky part. What do you think? [ 05-10-2002, 15:48: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Interesting points. I just hate to see the social fragmentation and racial inequities that I see today. There is no sense of community in my opinion. I would like to see that change. And the only real way to do that, in my opinion, is to get people out of their comfort zones and meet the neighbors. quote: I'm not all that clear on what you’re trying to suggest, or at least I hope I'm not. As far as I can tell what your saying is that everyone should be shipped off to small camps where they are forced to work for minimal pay. This is awful, it would be the biggest rights violation since, well, it would be the biggest ever. It would be socialism of the worst kind, workers would be (at least for however long they were in the camps) virtual slaves. Then, of course, we have the political fallout. Anyone who had a hand in passing a bill to cause this wouldn’t have a prayer for reelection and whatever party originally suggested it would suffer massively. Then, of course, we would have an exodus similar to the one I described earlier as talented individuals decided that they did not want to waste a couple of years of there lives being slaves to the system. Correct me if I made any errors interpreting your rather brief suggestion. A "camp" could be a decent apartment building with shared bathrooms...eating area's etc. The cost of these facilities could be covered by having these people work in industries where they have a previous interest and aptitude. But yes the pay would be low because the real intent would be to have people learn how to live together in a safe and thought provoking environment. You can even have in-house leaders that, with time and skill, could take over positions of responsibility. I could go on and on with ideas. And I hope this doesn't sound too utopian because with dedication anything is possible. Political fallout -- Always Loss of talented people -- Heh heh the rich kids who's parents think they need to go to Harvard now! I don't much care about them really (trust me they will be ok)...but they run the country...soooo....like everything else they would get a waiver of some kind I bet. I don't know just an idea....I just hate to see what my country has become and I want to brain storm ideas to fix it. Necessity brings change as far as I'm concerned. Until there is some need, things won't change anyway. I just despise the idea that any of my country’s citizens can be any thing less then their potential. Because everything that surrounds them says they have no potential or not a good investment. Just looking for a way to break the cycle. Are we too have any meeting of the mind on this or am I just way off base in your opinion?

I really like this place....I really do. You all make me laugh like hell (in a good way) all the time and I thank you. No DL I was talking in a civil or military way...and if your good with computers or whatever you could work for some organization in that way....or whatever. But the work would have to be for very low pay and the people have to live in a communal situation. These people also should represent the nation's various minority groups in a balanced way. So out of 100 people the %'s will be balanced to reflect that of the over all nation so everyone gets to know everyone else. And these people have to be supervised by a multi ethnic crew of responsible adults..... How does that strike you? And your right we are not ready to share the showers so some modifications would be required....I could talk all day long about how they do it in the Army and you would probably be offended.

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about Gray Fox....I don't know what the best system is...but if your people develop "good" skills and lessons your society improves. And I promise all of you that college education is at the front of Army priorities for the enlisted soldiers these days. Tons of programs to stimulate this. To make E-7 (sergeant first class....first level of being a Senior Non-Commissioned Officer) they want a 2yr degree. 4 is better. So a lot of folks are like "why the hell am I (as an E-7) getting paid less than a brand new LT when I have the same education level but a TON more experience." Anyway...it's not for every one but that is just a single point. I'll have been a sergeant for a year but I know that I helped at least two young people to get their priorities in order. Cause honestly these two don't know what they want but at least they can do this while they figure it out. For people who have had a terrible example when they were young, a program like this could be amazing. But I don't think all should go Army, there are a bunch of ways to help one's nation while being forced to grow as an individual and meet people. And I do mean forced some people need a giant kick in the A*S [ 05-08-2002, 18:03: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

I wouldn't either in pure form...but I might be interested in incorporating parts of his idea into a new system.

Thanks for the correction. Attention to detail is a subtle art I am always trying to master.... I know folks from both parties will vote for this so I love em' both

Not all Americans believe in capitalism.....but we are living so good the people don't really care....I think one day they will. If anything our country has set the standard in killing good leaders. MLK Jr and Kennedy (both) had the ability to change the world... You give em' hell Emphy!

Even if they do pass this nonsense it can still be ruled unconstitutional. Threatening this market, I have no doubt that a lot of companies will get together and finance a legal expeditionary force to fight this stupidity in court.... I do love Republicans.... [ 05-07-2002, 09:10: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Lady you are sicker than me....heh heh....even more honest.....so is the world.

Yeah they kinda took the leap on this....I was just talking about how people should have to give something back when young.....but I read Starship Troopers too, so I can understand the desire to take it a step further. I would guess you could forward your idea's to your rep who served their tour and they would consider it. Any good leader knows that they don't know it all. But really you made your choice at 35 (or whenever). That's when it starts to become clear if you want a life in politics in this alter reality. By 35 you should be able to make your choice and live with it. And anyway shouldn't at 65 you be in a old folks home somewhere being mistreated? [ 05-06-2002, 17:24: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Police have developed a reputation and they have to deal with that. When the trust / respect is lost it is hard to replace. It can be done....but it is not an easy job. Personally I think police should be compensated better....but then we should demand a higher caliber of officer as well. I think in paddy's case, like any where else, the officer in charge may not be a workaholic...maybe for the reasons above...maybe not. But you get what you pay for and sometimes you get a dud. So that’s when you go talk to a supervisor. Or try to sue the agency...if they acted improperly. Hell it could turn into a class action if other people have been hit with bricks and no charges were filed...if the bearings don't squeak they don't get no grease.

You know I bought a lighter in Korea with those exact sentiments Well being a Sergeant gave me four young soldiers for me to kick into shape (unfortunately kicking soldiers is frowned up these days....so I kept asking politely until they got tired of my voice).....and sent them to take some college classes. And the Army paid 75% of the tuition... I altered some of the hours they worked so they could participate in labs etc.... And I never had to kill anyone....well maybe one day....