Lotharr

I don't think you can, but what have you got?

Poverty and crime go hand in hand. All these hot issues but no understanding of casual factors. One can debate nonsense all day long but if people did not live in economically void, poverty induced crime pockets, this wouldn't be an issue. When people have justice they live within law and community.

Ok Jag...give us the time table? How long will it take?

That they can live with a bunch of guns, like us, but without all the corpses? It's true and I think it just makes some people

EP don't not discount the level of rage your country generates by living in peace with your firearms. We'll see how much it costs. quote: Almost every major war the united states fought in they said it would be short. Good point. People don't understand this as a long term power struggle over Arab self determination and international justice vs economic and strategic ÔÇ£securityÔÇØ for the most free of the freemarket. It's strange what we call war these days....for the average American it's either a romp through the desert in 100 days or less, or it's a rally against "evil".....wait a minute...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...iraq_war_cost_1 So this report thinks it could cost 2 trillion to invade Iraq....finnaly somebody put it in terms that we understand.

IDF caps two UN workers in pin point strike.

If you go down the list some soldiers have links...click on a few and you'll read about the reality of serving with the IDF. You might learn something. Probably not...but I consider myself an optimist.

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp 504...

Perpetual war for perpetual peace....with liberty and justice for who? [ 12-04-2002, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

What the hell does that have to do with history and the question? Sort out your right wing propaganda and get back to me when you're done defending the new aristocracy. [ 12-03-2002, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Lowen Crusan E-5, 19D (P) 92Y (S) 1998-2003

quote: No, I wasn't referring to corporate welfare or any of that no kidding But you made the case better then I could have....I just provided you with the right context. http://www.cato.org/dailys/06-05-02.html As right as it gets. These conservatives understand this one aspect correctly. [ 12-02-2002, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: The logic is, that a corporation - like any group is made up of individuals. It is the right of people to peaceably assemble, and should they wish - throw all their money into a big pot to use to get the candidate they want elected. Now if these corporate leaders see that they can hedge their bets in order to get a politically favorable candidate, they are perfectly within their rights. If you made billions of dollars, you can spend it how you want, it's called FREEDOM. You need to check your history. The founding fathers understood the threats to sovereignty of any organization outside of a small government and principles of self governance. They also understood the threats posed by aggregation of wealth. You want to talk about hypocrisy. Corporate charters were established for set periods of time and then reviewed. Often they were not renewed when they exceeded their charter or committed other abuses. The founders werent perfect but they knew the difference between a person and an artificial entity created to serve the state. I bet they would laugh at the idea of a corporation exceeding what in their mind was the only and obvious place for it in society.secondary and accountable. Corporations gained their current status when the Supreme Court interpreted the constitution differently in the late eighteen hundreds. So either you accept interpretation or you don't. I do not discount the many abilities of the corporations to benefit society but clearly they wield vast amounts of power that undermine the democratic process and destroy community after the mission changed from serving people and country to that of only a wealthy elite. [ 12-02-2002, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

quote: So, um, who exactly do you think pays most of the costs for these exotic weapon systems (and may I remind you that the atom bomb, then an exotic weapon system, saved us a horrible land war in Japan)? Oh yea, it's the wealthy, because people with money pay most of the taxes. Lets here it for tax breaks for the poor and more taxing on the wealthy... War time economy. What are you talking about? If you are referring to the 1% who hold over 50% of the wealth in this country sell some stock and buy a clue (oh thats right you got ripped off tootragic) Our wealth imbalance looks like something out of a medieval nightmare. quote: Darling, it's not called justice when you rob one group to prop up the degenerate lifestyle of another. I admit that there are people who arent degenerate and lazy on welfare and other social programs, but they are being encouraged to be degenerate and lazy You are talking about corporate infiltration into government correct? How our tax money goes into failing businesses run by degenerates. How vast amounts of corporate R+D are funded by the tax payers who don't see the pay off? So when wealth owns politics and those bought and paid for suits pass laws that destroy the worker's ability to serve as the balancing force against greed and profiteering that is not stealing eh? I would have to say that engineering the laws to serve the interests of wealth without concern for society is a plutocracy and a form of tyranny. Now the only thing stopping real action is the middle class standard of living....and that is falling also....youre like a broker in the market of barrowed time. The rest of your post is elitist crap but keep it up...I do like your posts....this instructional candor in AmericaInc ethics is something you can't get from CEO's these days. quote: And I thought our educational system was in trouble. You have no idea the kinda shape this country is in. Commercials would have this country look like a utopia of gizmos and well adjusted, ethnically diverse happy people..but by 2020 behavioral disorders are expected to surpass heart conditions as the a major affliction of American citizens. quote: I think the problem that parents don't have time or energy is closely related with the discipline issue. If I had to guess, I'd say that this is because both have to work to support the family. Yup quote: Helping people to help themselfs looks like a promising concept to me Yes quote: I've heard that sex-ed isn't exactly popular with the religious right. Neither is science...go figure.

NEVER! quote: I don't disagree here. But it isn't conservatives in particular who are destroying America. It is any polititian who places self above the constitution. Im not a vegetarian but I accept that global warming as a real phenomenacorporate science is a serious threat to rational decision making. You never did answer my responses above. So what's the deal anyway? The constitution can't be interpreted differently to fit the times? Let me ask you this: Where is the logic in the Supreme Court applying Bill of Right protections to a corporation?

quote: A business is NOT a charity, it is FOR PROFIT organization, for without profit, an entropeneur will not even bother, why should he start a business? When he starts it, he loses money to begin with, and as soon as it starts showing a profit, it is taxed away from him? People don't need charity when they have justice. You of all people should know how the founders felt about corporations. They feared precisely what is happening today. I believe your three steps would throw this country into a revolution. quote: It works EVERY time it is tried Ok fill me in.

quote: I know the questions in this post are directed towards Dragon Lady and Draconi Rex but I have that stupid habit of answering questions not directed to me just for fun. No problem others jump in all the timeonly you seem to have a grip on reality... I wanted to know where Rex got those figures on private vs public costs and what not... quote: That's the point. I think he wants to abolish some programs to save money. I understand that and I am all for saving tax payer money where it is practical. The current theme in America is to deregulate everything thinking that the "lazy bureaucrat" will be replaced by the resourceful and savvy business exec. However corporate governance and consumerism is destroying our sovereignty and spreading the ethics of visionless short term profitability over any sense of environmental, employee, or civic duty. Good schools cost. I don't know how it is in your country but we have left millions of Americans impoverished and destitute in the quest for profit. It is no longer fashionable to discuss these issues in mainstream outlets since this rush towards deregulation is actually exacerbating these problems. The corporate owners who buy officials, edit the media, and dictate priorities are loath to examine these failing in any meaningful way. I do want to explore this idea....but not at the expense causal factors. In America the underlying situation is that only the haves can afford proper funding in a system that rewards success by maintaining impoverishment. The notion of buying into the success of citizens has been left behind in favor of the free market ideology....only we seem to be building more prisons and weapons than citizens who are prepared to add to society in a meaningful way. quote: That's why I think that taxing transactions or capital gains is a bad idea. Well at least you don't think the sky to fall. I think it is a good idea. Trading can't stop so they can deal with it like the millions of Americans who have to deal with paying for more exotic weapons systems that aren't furthering our goals in the current asymmetrical warfare environment and will never overcome motivated thinkers that are reacting to oppression and abusive foreign policy. It seems that if the theory of the freemarket were sound we wouldn't be suffering these situations. We are dismantling tort law, industrial regulation, and corporate accountability at unprecedented rates (thats for the jobs we dont send to some totalitarian country where labor can be used as virtual slaves). All we are getting however is more poor people, less jobs, and further disintegration of community....so if the suits cant make the right decisions we need to force them to give back. I dont want to live in a nation of accountants who base their morality on current market ethos.

quote: You think its naïve? You, darling, have no room to criticize anyone about being naïve. None.

Like I said I don't know the ins and outs. I think it naive that assume that third party schools won't just be deregulated with the rest of the country. The real cause of school failure is more then management. As long as the communities around the school are war zones and void of economic opportunities any school system will suffer. I don't advocate throwing money at any problem. However, to assume that new management will somehow balance already meager budgets and bring a success that is somehow being held back by current administrations is not realistic. I believe this to be hype generated by profiteers who do not care about externalities like human suffering. Where did you get those figures from? I'd like to review the source and the data. From your post you want to put money back in your pocket. If that is the case I think it would be more fruitful to look else ware. Social programs are always going to cost money so who should pay the bill? How about we place a small tax on every stock transaction? Money would flow back into the country that made these businesses successful (Nader idea. Do you share Dragon Lady's assessment that the majority of American citizens are filth to be exploited whenever there is profit to be made?

quote: frog eating surrender monkey Good post!

I haven't looked it this much but I will say that I am against corporate governance in matters of education by the record of governance in every other sector. There is already an abundance of sources towards turning kids into consumer addicts. School should be about socialization in a multiethnic society, critical thought born from objective information, and preparing a student to be "competitive" in jobs and higher education. Commercializing the learning environment is the wrong move. You can't solve deep rooted problems by throwing away sovereignty to a bunch of accountants. How about we end the annual 300+ billion defense spending spree and trade in the smart bombs for smart kids? Hell, if we declared peace on the world we could lower all kinds of expenses.

What is the deal with darling and bovine anyway? I would agree that sensationalism is a very real part of the problem....but it doesn't stop there. If information dissemination is propelled by profit motive then it is clear to see why ownership is centralizing....and that is ultimately causing the problem. Centralizing the media is on many levels. From local media to the TV, the same players own everything. This vertical integration from content to technology lends itself to other convergences of power. The people who own this industry do not want to share the market of ideas because they fear the potential ramifications of democracy and thought....your kind of people. When you own the entire market and all the tangible and intangible mechanisms that make it function you don't have to worry about ratings. Once upon a time you had journalists that understood the true role of a free press in a democratic society (even if they were naive). They represented the cutting edge of truth and understood their imporatnice in the role of maintaining a healthy republic...and took pride. They are mostly gone now and being replaced with mid level execs who control content. Journalists that believe it is proper to editorialize content and focus on the trivial. Journalists that understand not to ask the mid level for real journalismthey know the average pay in America and want no part of it.... All this aside, media suffers from an industrial PR infestation.... for all the journalists they employ...take that number and add 20,000 for PR specialists that engineer content and promote industries who could care less about truth and the ramifications of their actions. It is more then if it bleeds it leads.it is complex, unethical, and destructive.

quote: Why is there always a 2 or 3 day delay after one of my posts? Does it take that long to come up with a coherent argument to the contrary? No. I could give you the list of reasons why but what's the point? If it makes you feel good to believe that....cool. Your article didn't answer any of my points and questions before the exchange with DL. Look 'em over and let me know. It's just more rhetoric with no investigative merit. Al Gore is a lying snake of a politician who clearly represents the corrupt nature of the business politicians who have sold their soul to the highest bidder. He does make a small point (in the common partisan way) of focusing on the trivial and entirely missing the root cause. Media is losing it's credibility to people but for other reasons. Critical investigation is way down and declining. The function of the media as a democratic institution is rightfully in question for a variety of reasons. However, for Gore to focus on just a narrow part of the systemic failure is laughable and typical of political losers who operate in the sound bite thought vacuum of corporate media. quote: Make the liberal dream sound 'heroic'! That's the spirit! I donÔÇÖt fault conservatives for their basic beliefs in self governance and free enterprise. I fault the institutions that pander to these beliefs while destroying them. I feel that liberals are even worse. They are lying to the people for their righteous ends while working hand in hand with their political opponents to further destroy our democratic process. To hell with any liar motivated by personal gain over civic responsibility. [ 11-30-2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Lotharr ]

Congratulation!