Charles Lindsey

quote:Hardly. If I want to give coffee mugs away when other companies are selling them, does that make my "pricing" predatory? No. Yes it does. If you and only a couple of other people are making coffee mugs I think it does. Air analogy. You can get air anywhere. You can also by a cigarette lighter compressor and carry it with you. "No, the basis of the lawsuit was that Microsoft was forcing PC manufacturers to load its products tied in with the OS rather than other products being present in the original configuration. " That too. Yes. "Yes they are. The function of the truck is to tow. " No they aren't. A truck hauls. Towing is an option. Then you can prepare the truck for towing however you see fit. "If I buy a Web server, is the hardware that allows it to connect to the Internet necessary to the function of the server? Yes, as its function is to serve pages over the net. " I agree with that because that is its primary function. "Gee, I forgot -- YOU are the authority on what is essentially to a product's operation, not the end-user. " Dirty tactic. But anyway, no I don't think I am. And we'll just go around in circles on this one. How did this little side debate get started anyway? Oh I remember. Steve was arguing that the internet is now a peripheral of the computer and a browser should be part of the OS. " No dice. If I buy a computer for the purpose of accessing the Web, than said access is ESSENTIAL to the operation and functionality of MY PURPOSE." There you go, your purpose. If you want a computer that can connect to the internet you go make that purchase with that in mind. All of them can so that's kind of moot anyway. But it's not essential to the operation of the computer. A truck doesn't have to tow. A TV doesn't have to have a remote etc. Just because you deem it necessary doesn't mean iit is essential. But I think I'm done with this one. We'll just keep going in circles. No wait, I see something else. "If *I* buy a computer for Internet access and it cannot do so, sure, the computer can still be used." Thank you, that's all I wanted. Now for your point. "HOWEVER, it is USELESS to *ME*, the END-USER. " ...because you want it to connect to the internet. OK I got that. Now we've come full circle back to the browser. Skips a bunch of bad analogies to the same argument. "Now THAT is the issue, Charles. Not whether or not the browser was there at all, but the exposure of it. Was MS wrong to do that? I dunno -- are the wrong to have the Start button on the desktop when there exists other OS management software? " Thank you again. Were they wrong to have a browser? No. Were they wrong to tie it to the OS? No. Were they wrong to place it on the desktop? No. Were they wrong to give it away? I distinctly remember when I first got online everyone bragging on netscape. I went to the site and it was $29.99. I went with IE for free. Sure there is no law about pricing. But combine Microsoft's monopoloy power, placement, pricing, and policy on other desktop software and I think those are the reasons for this lawsuit. Correct? Giving your product away for free is wrong if you are trying to run the other guy out of business. (Coffee mug analogy) Menchise:"The answer is very simple. They abused their power through criminal acts, so they should lose their power." Aramike:"That's absurd. Criminal activities have not be PROVEN in a court of law. Should we just start sentencing suspects now?" Menchise has a point but it must be proven. That's the basis of the suit. I agree with Mike. I like this discussion. Thanks for some good points Mike even though it's obvious I disagree.

One more step and we'll have robotic warriors. And I have my doubts they haven't already thought of that. Might even be capable of remote control.

quote:They probably don't know they have the choice. They do, they just probably don't know it. And Microsoft capitalized on that by requiring IE be on the desktop and disallowing competitors from being there. If I'm remembering right. Good post though. quote: $ilk's post Now that's just plain funny. Steve: I see what you are saying. I still disagree. Good discussion though.

quote:Funny, I just posted a car anaology. But no, what I'm saying is that I can use any road I want. I don't have to pull up to the usage booth, sign in, and prove i can use this road. Hmmm, that turned into a hit on the activavtion scheme. Not quite what I intended. Microsoft built their own interstate. They pretty much blocked all the secondary roads. Then they barely give anyone the design specs to connect to said interstate. *sigh* still poor analogy. Tac: we have that already. It's called Apple. Except Apple don't run on PC's like you stipulated. quote:That MS "pushed" companies into using their browser instead of netscape? Thats moronic, the users can always install netscape in their machines. Sure they can. But would they? Nope. I didn't because IE was already there. Microsoft won that battle. quote:Now, if MS made their OS to be incompatible with netscape and any other browser but their own... well...it IS their OS and they arent exactly obliged to help another company compete with their products anyway. That would clinch an anti trust suit. They aren't that dumb. quote:Kind of like Linux THAT is what the greatest problem is. Yup. MS needs a competitor.

It's almost too late but I would like to post a thank you to the Veterans on this board and everywhere. Thsnk you. Thank you for doing what I didn't. Thank you for remaining true to your mission. Thank you for serving even when we were complacent. Thank you. This year I think a special thank you goes to the Police and Firefighters of New York City and everywhere. They are now Veterans as well.

I sort of get your point but it's backwards. We were talking of things being added to the OS . Now you are talking of things the body no longer needs. I.E. subtracted. Cars. I like cars. Maybe this will work. Lots of people make cars. Lots of people make computers. So the analogy will be cars = computers. Gasoliine = Microsoft. Now cars need gasoline to run. Computers need an OS to run. Lots of people make gasoline. Only one company makes the OS the majority of computers around need to run. Now, does the gasoline company (now, for the sake of the argument it is truncated to one single domineering gasoline company) mandate a new standard for spark plugs? And does that gasoline company decide that any car that doesn't run the new spark plug capable of using the new gasoline just won't run? Does your gasoline require you to call into the company to activate it? Does your gasoline sudenly decide it's been a while since you checked in so it quits working? If you change your oil, air filter, spark plugs, etc. does your gasoline choke and require you to check in? Still a poor analogy but I hope better. I am buying a product. I want that product to work without telling me what to do OR guiding me to use it's own subsidiaries.

quote:OK you people are turning this into more than it is. No sir, you are by being stubborn. I started this. I told you why it was inappropriate. Yet you are going to get all stubborn even though you seem like a nice guy. quote:I try to keep it to 1 or 2 msg boards at a time So leave it be here. That particular Homer Simpson quote is inappropriate here so choose another one. Like "I'm so stupid"

RP tags please. quote:you vacuum sucking gammulan pig-dogs is sort of harsh. If Jaguar wasn't absolutely sure you were joking with him.... I think the veterans know it but for the benefit of the newbies and also just for convention. We made it we need to stick to it. Thanks

quote:Remember when RISC (reduced instruction set computing) microchips first came out? Barely. quote:That was also an enhanced processor that was designed to optimize the instruction set in order to boost performance for mostly scientific processing. I am making the argument that when the CPU is altered specifically to compensate for peripheral processing rather than letting application software accomodate the peripheral, then that peripheral processing becomes a part of the operating system. Since web processing is accounted for by changes to the CPU, I argue that the web (nee internet) has now evolved to be a peripheral managed by the operating system. I disagree. They can optimize for it all they want but it still is not essential to the operation of the computer. (Goes back to your definition of application software.) I'm not trying to "win" anything here. I just like the discussion. What we really need is for someone else to make an operating system that will do everything Windows does and give them some competition.

quote:The CPU has an instruction set designed specifically for the performance of the web. Great! But enhancing for or optimizing for still does not mean it is necessary for the basic functions of a computer. quote: Does that not make the web a peripheral to the CPU? Nope quote:Why, then, have special instructions designed specifically for it? As above, optimization is one thing. Claiming it as a peripheral and necessary for the function of the computer is another. I have a bad feeling someone is going to come along and trounce me. hehe. But I do enjoy discussing this. And $ilk. Maybe I used too many "angries" in my reply to you but I am going to leave it unedited.

quote:THeres a war going on. People carrying on with lawsuits and political correct ideals are sabotaging the war effort. Now that's just absolutely unfair and uncalled for. quote:sabotaging the war effort Pure BS. How many $ilk's Story Times have I seen lately? I'm just plain tired of seeing you guys talking of war and solving the world's problems so I started a topic that I wanted to discuss. People have responded so it must interest them as well. And they have responded with good posts too. I have some thoughts on this "war". It is justified. It is necessary. It will last a long time and I agree with it. However, it is not the end all and be all of life. For you to claim that I am sabotaging the war effort by talking about Microsoft on a website is ludicrous. In the old days threads that weren't directly pertaining to the game or something related ( OS, Directx, tech, etc.) were deleted. Be glad we can talk about a number of things that affect us. Go start your own thread. How about "Afghan's new Gov't"? Or how about "The Northern alliance isn't doing what the US wants"? I didn't bash your threads don't bash mine.

Very good post Steve. Hope you don't mind if I don't use the board's quote function on this one. "Well, this is an interesting topic." Thanks "Microsoft was guilty of having a product that everyone wanted." True, though there is still that ancient "Windows stole the Apple GUI" thing. "You can't fault them for that," Not trying to. " since that is what a market-based economy is all about." Granted. "The complaint against Microsoft was that they used unfair business practices by bundling their browser with their operating system and then forced the PC manufacturers to include their browser if they wanted the OS." Exactly. "If there was a violation of anti-trust laws, it was the forcing of the browser, not the domination of the marketplace that was at issue." Yup. "There are two kinds of monopolies: one is when the marketplace rewards a successful product by their purchases, and the other is when a company absorbs or puts out of business (through predatory pricing) all the competitors. The former is considered okay, the latter is illegal. Remember when the Japanese were dumping microchips on the US market below cost in order to drive out American chipmakers? That was predatory pricing. Microsoft didn't do that, but the bundling thing came close." Yes it did. Offering something for free that others charge is predatory pricing is it not? "However, one can take an evolutionary perspective and say "what is an operating system?" The classical definition is that an OS is what lets the CPU talk to the peripherals. Everything else is application software." Bingo. " In the old days, the peripherals were memory, the video screen, the storage devices, the input devices, the output devices, the network, and perhaps the IPL. Today, the network has been expanded to include the internet and the world-wide-web. Can the internet be considered a peripheral to the computer?" Nope. Just cause everyone wants it does not make it necessary. The Browser is not crucial to the function of the computer itself. The Operating system is. "If the internet is a peripheral device, then the software necessary to access the internet could be considered as operating system software, especially if the OS (and the CPU in recent models) is optimized to communicate with it. If that is the case, then one can argue that browser software that is optimized to run with the operating system is a Good Thing, since all one is doing is expanding the operating system to enhance the performance of yet another peripheral to your computer. " You can argue that but I don't agree with it. The internet is not essential to the operation of the computer itself. "The marketplace has already said that simpler computer operation and integrated software suites are preferred over separate software packages that must be configured to run with other separate software packages. Most users are not computer scientists (as evidenced by the recent computer training software commercials on TV), and they just want to buy a computer and have it work when they turn it on." And it does. To go back to your operating system definition that is all it should do. It hsould operate the peripherals and store stuff. I.E. keep a file system. The OS itself should not have Internet capability not should it have multimedia capability. Those functions are not essential to the operation of the computer itself and therefore fall outside the realm of OS. That's how I see it and what I beleive the suit is about. "Personally, I believe that the whole thing was a Democrat plot to knock Gates down a peg or two because he wasn't "spreading the wealth" to the elite's satisfaction. I posted a history of Gates' political donations that began only after the suit was filed, and made to mostly Democrat organizations, but they were on the old board and are no longer accessible. " No thoughts there other than back to my point that it should be an antitrust suit because all the other stuff they are building into Windows falls outside a strict definiton of OS. "I'm glad to see this die a natural death. " What is dying a natural death? P.S. I have read more on the subscription thing and it does not appear to be a monthly thing but a renewal thing. Kind of like your yearly pest control contract. Wait too long and they charge you full price again. P.P.S. I take back what I first said. I think it was a great post. P.P.S. I take back what I first said. I think it was a great post.

This one is not frivolous. At least I don't think so. So you don't think Microsoft did all those nasty things they are accused of? And in fact some were proven in the original judges finding of fact? quote:Microsoft is big and they are profitable, if the states raised taxes again, people would riot, so they are trying to raise money through suing private companies, and I for one think it sucks!! Hadn't heard that one. Who thinks that? I think it truly is about anti-trust. What do you think about the subscription model I keep seeing in various articles? You gonna start shelling out $20 a month to keep your computer going?

quote:I have received the links from both him and Ice Cold. Charles, you're on the internal Beta list I presume, so you've see the discussions. NONE of us have been able to download it. Yes sir, I've seen the discussion and even tried to get it. I haven't paid the $2.95 yet. The other site that wants "votes" well I tried to be slick. I did all the jazz and signed up with another screen name. But when I switched names to answer all the emails I lost the connection to the original site and it still wouldn't let me in. Maybe I'll try again totally from the other name. That site is interesting because it lists how big most of the warez is and how many files it's broken down into. Maybe I"ll try again tomorrow. I'm starting two weeks vacation so I have lots of time at the moment.

No interesting topics the last few days. I'm tired of watching you all solve the world's problems anyway. So, last I saw nine states had accepted the Justice Dept's deal and nine had rejected and would continue with a law suit. What do you guys think?

Uhhhhhh, it's Vesperon. No "i". And they aren't obscure either. They're part of Galcom. Cool gif though.

quote:justifying my stealing the TV from my wife Another TV.

Yes I have as well. Went into one forum and the thread name stopped about halfway down and half of a javascript message appeared where the light bulbes usually are. I backed out and went back in and everything seemed fine.

Schoch, disbelieving something someone said is not the same as calling them a liar. Laracuente even said we wouldn't believe it.

Okay, okay. Things have to bounce around a bit before I figure things out. I looked at those files again and while the fleet structure (Strike ops etc) is old the ranking system is still valid and approved. So, what now? Should I make a general Insurgent page and resurrect the old site slightly modified? Or just add the ranking system to the Balor site?

quote:See, evidence. Evidence of what? The guy wanting to make a buck? That's all that is I'm sure. Too bad he's using illegal software to do it with Then again I'ved used a couple appz myself. But the fascination fades. quote:I wonder if the SC still is thinking on banning me. If ya don't quit bugging him he will. Just do what he asked. Reading above it seems you have. donyeb is right. If he's your friend you could ask him how big the file is and all that junk while delving into windows explorer to take a peek. You could also tell him you want it too and ask what's the name of the site. For what it's worth I think you have been a good member of this community. Your "friend" may have fooled you big time and that is unfortunate. But given a choice I would ask that you stay.

They are substituting the z for an s. Gamez (games), apps (apps/applications), etc. I looked. It is listed. After going through about 12 pop ups with porn included on them and following dudes goofy instructions I got to the listing only to find that he wants $2.95 for a two month pass. So I quit. That $2.95 probably included a pass to porn as well. hmmmmmmm.....

Welcome Back Shingen. How ya been?

Your setup is wrong. Do away with the page breaks. Type it in one straight line with no spaces.