street228

quote:The media believes that if they tell a lie enough times that it will become the truth, well, NOT anymore, and you can continue to spout their lies, but again, it will NEVER be the truth. The tax cuts are what is dtiving this economy right now, interest rates have been low for far longer then the tax cuts have been in effect, the war in Iraq is actually keeping the economy down, not at all driving it, just as all wars do, we are NOT building that much military hardware right now, and compared to the overall national economy, it is a drop in the bucket. You seem to have this Iraqi war fever, and seem to think that it drives everything, when in the big picture, the war in Iraq hardly effects it at all, it is a dtop in the bucket to everything else that is going on. The media may hype it for all it's worth, but it has no noticeable effect on the economy at all, once the oil starts flowing, it will, but until then, it has little to no effect on the entire US economy, and if you think it does, you're the one that's dreaming... First, the political base, by which bush's platform is teetering, is ,in FACT, based on WAR. period. Second, you keep harping on the media, as it is somehow controlled by the democratic party, and EVERYTHING it says, is a lie. I concur, that bits and pieces of information, out of context, is misleading, but this has been the case which both political parties have been extremely guilty, but bush has definately taken the lead in such misleading presentations. Third, the business, which I am affiliated, is directly proportional to the stock market, and the stock market has been radically showing its affluence, in accordance to the WAR effort, and our countries proliferation into this war. Fourth, I live in a town, where GENERAL DYNAMICS(formally known as INTERCONTINENTAL BALLISTICS), a BOMB manufacturing plant, has been running around the clock manufacturing(replacement of the arsenel we unleashed on iraq, I assume), since approx 6 months prior to us invading Iraq. All of these things points to the DIRECT opposite of that which you state

quote: We have killed a few thousand, but hundreds of thousands, give me a fricking break. Personally, having been in such positions, as the iraqi. dug into a defensive posture. I know the compliment of bombs we dropped on them during the first 10 days of the war would have killed at least 20-30% of their total compliment(a very conservative estimate, I assure you), if not more. To state they all just went home, and waited for the invasion, is pure nonsense. quote: Saddam, now HE killed 100's of thousands of Iraqi's, as well as Iranians. Once you add up his casualty count,agin your logic is flawed. At the time he killed the iranians, he was in a LEGITIMATE WAR, which WE condoned. It is plain irrational to put those deaths on his head as some great atrocity. That would be comparable to counting all the deaths during ww2 at the americans and allies hands, as such an atrocity, and justification to irradicate our government. quote: The fact of the matter is, our casualty count in this war has been staggeringly low It is funny, you can take such a position, when our government has continuously, from the beginning, stated that there is no official count on the casualties of the enemy iraqi troops. The low count, I believe you are referring to, is that of the IRAQI CIVILIANS!! quote:WWhy is is, that liberals ignore the atrocities of those with whom we disagree, and yet when we finally do something about it, they get mad at US for killing a few thousand? You are angry that we overthrew Saddam, yet he killed and was continously killing thousands upon thousands of his own people. Yet when we FINALLY put a stop to it, you enlarge our casualty count to such ridiculous extremes and lay the blame on us, like Saddam was a little clueless, harmless dictator, but we are some big bad power that kills willy nilly whenever we fell like it. again you show how your logic is fatally flawed. I am a conservative, and I am not mad at eliminating a small 3rd world dictator. I am appalled, at the WAY in which it was done, and disgusted, in the methodology, by which the american people were manipulated in backing such an immoral and unprecidented ACT. AND yes, a bit ANGRY, in that the very misrepresentation of facts has allowed good people, such as yourself, to have been tricked into believing such, and allowing our way of life, and our form of democracy, to be bent into a big powerful nation which demonstrates the oposite of everything our constitution stands for.

Yes, I am aware of the definition as such, but I just cant imagine, the United states people, jumping up and backing Bush in this unprecidented agressive act of invading Iraq, based on what has been discovered. The seriousness of our actions, in no way is justified, by ANYTHING remotely discovered as yet, and by no means, has even come close to supporting, ole bushy's DECLARED reasoning, for taking such actions, as Killing hundreds of thousands of iraqi.

quote:THe tax cuts have driven the economy through to above where we were before Bush came into office, just as I said they would, it brought us out of the recession that Clinton caused with his tax hikes If you think these so called TAX CUTS are what is driving this economy, your perception, is a little off base. The EXTREMELY low intrest rates, along with government injections of money through its WAR machine, are the only thing driving this economy. quote:I have yet to see a conservative run on any kind of hate platform. Bush did not run on the platform, but formed it after 9/11 I know you will not accept it, but here I am: A prime example of "A HARD CORE CONSERVATIVE" who stood for this platform, but became disgusted with the inept leadership, which relies on LIES and DISHONESTY to achieve an end that has no relationship to it's own platform. quote:From the right, I see a stronger military, a stronger economy, not 1 terrorist attack on US soil since 911, and Al Quaeda broken into small groups, trying to get themselves together. I will not disagree with your assessment, of a stronger military, but the stronger economy is NOT even remotely close to the mark. It is an illusion based on your perspective, and a very fragile balance being maintained by our WAR in IRAQ, and has nothing to do with fighting TERRORIST, AND to claim Al queda to be broken, is another assessment which is untrue, and holds no water. Using examples that there have been no attacks in the United States since 9/11, is like saying mice repel elephants, and are quite good at it...see..there are no elephants within 1000 miles. quote:

quote: Oh yeah, almost forgot...14 mile range is a REAL threat to the world, and especially to the united states!!!!...shells so old, they have little punch left in them anyway... Lets get REAL!!..WEAPONS of MASS DESTRUCTION???? I think as time goes on, My argument, that what we did was wrong, will not be over ridden by what people resort to do, in defense of their country...AFTER we have totally dessimated their way of life.

Now that is impressive..Shingen. We all KNEW he had mustard gas... prior to the original GULF WAR. Finding an OLD shell, is FAR from justifying the WAR on Iraq. Come on...Lets put some real perspective on this, instead of grasping at straws. That is ALL that that article is....grasping at straws. We Used CSS GAS on our own civilians (a GAS outlawed, by international LAW for use in the open battlefield over 10 years earlier) Our own government pumped it into the buildings at WACO (which the children, we were supposedly saving, were also in) Would this justify another country to INVADE us? Logic, should entail weighing ALL actions unilaterally, with equivalant objective reason. And that is what this ADMINISTRATION has NOT done, and only proves the inept actions of this administration. Oh yeah, almost forgot...14 mile range is a REAL threat to the world, and especially to the united states!!!!...shells so old, the have little puch left in them anyway... Lets get REAL!!..WEAPONS of MASS DISTRUCTION???? [ 05-17-2004, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: street ]

quote: Member Rated: posted 05-17-2004 08:52 AM You still don't understand El Chi, and you never will WMD's WHERE found, they WHERE broadcasted, they WHERE destroyed. There are thing's the media is not allowed to show, like the destruction of said munitions The only munitions we destroyed were "CONVENTIONAL munitions" period!!!. I would like to see ONE publication, from any verifiable source, which would state anything other than "COULD have been modified to carry WMDs" I am sorry, but there is a great difference between conventional missiles which COULD have been modified to carry wmd, and what an actual WMD is. This is not MY opinion, but the factual occurance of what has transpired. This is also the case with so called financing, and the so called links with AL Queada and IRAQ.They were also "COULD HAVE...MAY HAVE...MIGHT HAVe" I need not ARGUE THIS..EVERYONE GO BACK AND READ!! , but make sure you read ALL the words in the sentences. quote:Leave Iraq... OK, so we leave Iraq, then what happens? Iraq gets taken over by terrorists, that's what, get out of afghanistan, that's the ticket, now they have that country back, get out of Saudi Arabia, OK, so we are out of Saudi Arabia, and what is happening? They are doing their best to undermine the rulers there, and take power themselves. OK, so what have we got, terrorists threaten to bomb and kill us unless we leave the middle east. So we leave, then what happens? They take over pretty much the entire middle east, might take 5 years, but they'll do it without us there, in a heartbeat. So, what happens once they build up this superislamic state? First of all, LIKE KERRY himself states, It would not be logical to LEAVE Iraq, at this point in the Game.(oh well, had to say it) I assert that there is a more ethical, and intelligent methodology, in which to deal with this terrible situation,than the juvinile methodology being used by our leaders, at this point. Being a hard headed fool, in no way, helps advance any goals toward establishing a SAFE enviroment, in IRAQ, Afghanistan, or for U.S. citizens anywhere in the world, OR here at home. quote:THAT is why we get involved, we do not want a nuclear war. If a nuclear war occur's then there is a major possibility that we will get involved as well The ONLY threat to us, of NUCLEAR war, which has always existed, and which has never been eliminated, Is NOT from these small third world countries, who do not have but a very small number, of small yield nuclear warheads, but from countries who are NOT true ALLIES toward capitolism, but have the capability to blind-side us, when they assess we have pushed too far. Our FEAR from these terrorist organizations took years to actually form any basis. This is due to our unwillingness to NEGOTIATE terms of existance with these people. After all, some of which, have legitimate gripes, and we ARE, in fact, responsible,for most of their complaints, and have, in fact, turned a deaf ear to their request to be heard. Just as, in Iraq, We did not try anything but brute ultimatums(which could NOT possibly have been met). A far cry from the "We tried everything" excuse, as justification for ACTIVE AGGRESSION through military force. THIS is an example of HARD CORE communisim(by US), much more than any ideal of socialism ever conveyed within any action or thought within or by the UNITED STATES I submit to you, the REST of the world will allow our "bad ass attitude", ONLY as long as it benefits those around our actions. When we go too far, The WORLD WILL stop us. EVEN with all our TECHNOLOGY,...we are already stretched FAR too thin. It is Pure Ignorance,to think that we are so big and bad, we can take on the WHOLE WORLD. And even MORE ignorant, to count all these little countries (little itty bitty russian sattelite countries and the like) as an effective ALLIANCE ,backing our actions. [ 05-17-2004, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: street ]

quote:Street ah im am pretty sure what ur saying by saying that we have killed more Iraqs then Saddam did in his years of Terror. You have no right to say that, tell that to the Families of the dead kurds who had 10,000 men, women and children taken away without a fight. Also u have seemed to forget what Saddam did to repress political opponets, Also with the systomatic killing of Shia muslims after the End of the second gulf war that in it self is another mass grave waiting to be found. Where are u getting ur numbers from Street off of Aljazera or something? total up...for saddam = 10000?. I will give him 30,000. Just to make my point. compare how many soldiers were defending Iraq,(500,000-800,000) when we first started bombing to how many were left, when we stopped bombing, and marched in. Do you really feel...they ALL just ran off and hid? We dropped more bombs, on the Iraqi ground troops, in the first 10 days of the war, than we dropped throughout ALL of WW2..FACT!. I assert: There is GOOD reason, as to why, the casualty list concerning the IRAQI, are NOT made publicly availiable. AND this does not include all the civilians and others killed since we declared an END to major combat. THUS, Major Stupidity,.....My reasoning and where my numbers come from

Doesnt anyone ELSE find this whole situation concerning berg...just a little bit disconcerting?. 1).His death publicly incites rage upon americans, by first confirmed alqueda cell within Irag. 2). Alqueda, for the first time, ADMITS they were responsible for ANY action within Iraq, with this atrocious act immediately AFTER the pictures are released which brought heat upon Rumsfeld. 3). These particular Alqueda cell, for the firs time, are all wearing hoods, to hide their identity. 4).A known terrorist used his laptop in the past? 5). His parents had just filed suit against Rumsfeld to get him out of U.S. custody 6). controversy as to wheather he was actually ever in U.S. custody, or just in the custody of the Iraqi police? the WHOLE thing has a SMELL to it, in my opinion

quote: Yup, but watch out if Kerry gets elected. Oy Vey! As much As I would like that...(-->from a conservative republican<---)... I doubt, that will be the case.

It does appear a little tougher..lol. I didnt want to be the first to say anything.(I LIKE it!!) The realism appears a little better with the trees as well, but I didnt know if it was my imagination, being in space so long, or not.

LOL..."Sycophant"....I had to look THAT one up!!,

The whole subject matter of WAR is a very controversial one, within our country, and the entire world. My position may be differ, in respect to others, but I just felt Every opinion should have been allowed without prejudice. I now can see some logic in the decision to close them(now that it has been explained). In my humble opinion, it would be a little more to the WHOLE community's benefit, if the explinations made for closing such threads, could be made in a rational manner; thus averting undue offense to its members.... but as I am one of the NEW members, I would like to apologize if I offended ANYONE while defending my position, and will now SIDDOWN.

Let me say this to Jaguar: You keep using the words "Liberal, in reference to any who do not agree with this WAR!. Do you EVEN understand the definition of the word LIBERAL? You obviously do not know the difference between a Liberal and a Conservative. I assure you, If a person is ANTI-THIS-WAR, does NOT classify him as a liberal. This SAME confused logic is evident in your conclusions concerning this war. If you can not decern the difference between the two, you obviously are not capable in decerning the difference between those who attacked the united states, and those who did not!!! And closing threads, because you do not agree with the content of the discussion is plain childish

quote: War was a neccessary in Iraq AND Afganhistan, did you not read my post, Iraq was given MANY warnings, and MANY chances. The Afganhistan government and other terrorist organizations that were in Afganhistan were at the root of the 9/11 incident. I think attacking their country and dissolving those organizations is not even a good enough punishment ofr the slaughter of over 2,000 people. Yes I read your post, but have already stated my aurguments against such, so I moved on. The IDEA, that Iraq had any DIRECT connection with the training of terrorist, or the al queada, is simply a huge misleading conclusion, based on scantily laid out hear say. sorry..not enough evidence to make it a fact. Yes, Iraq violated the UN resolutions, but that was no excuse to INVADE. Isreal is guilty of the same, we did not attack them. AND last of all, YOU still are confusing 9/11 with IRAQ. It was MOSTLY EGYPTION members of AL QUEDA, which carried out the attack on the WTC, NOT hussein. I agree Hussein was a bad dictator, but throughout Africa, South AMERICA, and the rest of the world, are many many more. WE do NOT hav the RIGHT, to DICTATE other's form of government. If so, Lets attack our BUDDIES(i.e. RUSSIA, and CHINA, etc. etc. It is not the general AMERICANs fault that they are confused as to the distinction, of WHO our ENEMY really is(AL QUEDA), as BUSH used twisted facts, LIES, and absolute FABRICATIONS..to INCITE the american people toward this awful end. HOWEVER...it IS the PEOPLES fault, for ignoring the FACTS, once they have been revealed. We cannot eliminate our guilt, by hiding, or ignoring, what actually has transpired, by JUSTIFYING our actions, just because SADDAM was a bad dictator. I submit to you....WE have KILLED a whole lot more IRAQI, in the last year, than saddam killed during his ENTIRE REIGN. NOW...WHO has the most blood on their hands????

perhaps, saying "I'm not bush" will be enough, jag

quote:You may like your varying shades of gray, and it may make you feel like some sort of intellectual, but it tells me that you have no common sense at all, and would survive on the street for a matter of minutes. Jag.., You have no KNOWLEDGE concerning me, nor my past...if you did, I assert, you would probably wet yourself.. quote: I don't want to "understand" the terrorists, and why they hate us, I can intellectualize that all day long. The fact is, they want to kill us, no matter what the cause is. Therefore, it is either kill them, or die yourself. Here is another INTELLECTUAL concept(i hope its not over your head, jag.)which you can attack, if you feel it necessary If you kicked every dog you saw, while walking...Eventually you are going to get bit....so you KILL the dog that bit you. YOU continue to kick every dog you see...you get bit again...so, again you KILL the dog that bit you....etc. etc.(repeat situation) So. you finally declare war on ALL dogs in the world...and attempt to KILL them. (sound like a smart move to you?,Jag?) Even with the BIGGEST gun, it would not be possible. Men are smarter than dogs(most, anyway) Men have memory, friends, relatives and are intelligent enough to find a way to bite you, without getting kicked. If you think taking a military machine, and declaring war on a non-entity, and killing or oppressing anyone you suspect, which MIGHT be a part of it, is the answer. Your in for a rude awakening COMMON SENSE would dictate: STOP KICKING the DOGS...would it not?....WOW a THIRD alternative is availiabe!!!! Maybe...just maybe..this has been put on a level which can be understood by you ,die hards, who have no concept, as to what I am trying to convey! @ Lostinspace, I too accept the diversity as a GOOD thing, in that it provides a check and balance. And, that discussion brings all perspectives to bare. And yes, the carrot does not ALWAYS work; however, If there be more than two paths, why must our leader insist, there only be two alternatives? The only answer possible, would be incompetant leadership. [ 05-13-2004, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: street ]

quote:Berg's father Michael said it was the family's understanding that Nicholas was in U.S. custody. The family filed a lawsuit on April 5 against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, accusing the U.S. government of holding Berg without merit. Berg was released the next day and the lawsuit was declared moot. "I still hold (Rumsfeld) responsible because if they had let him go after a more reasonable amount of time or if they had given him access to lawyers we could have gotten him out of there before the hostilities escalated," the father told Boston's WBUR radio station. "That's really what cost my son his life was the fact that the U.S. government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights." Berg's brother David told reporters Wednesday that the family received e-mails from Berg after his release in which he made clear he had been held by U.S. forces. Humm... ...interesting perspective from the FATHER of the man beheaded. I am sure, even that family will be classified as whiny liberals, by some of you, because they EXPECT our CIVIL RIGHTS, and DUE PROCESS, to be honored? [ 05-13-2004, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: street ]

Disregard for our constitutional rights or due process leads to many consequences which few realize, until it is too late: EXAMPLE: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/...ends/index.html [ 05-13-2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: street ]

the only thing I can say to the "RIGHT who have jumped on my last post,is this: The "Intelligent" would avoid "WAR"!!! until there were "NO OTHER" options availiable. To have a state of mind, where one JUMPS into conflict, WITHOUT weighing the ENTIRE consequence...is plainly MORONIC. I would assert, THE 700 U.S. DEATHS(most probably a lot higher) is NOT the ONLY conseqence. THOUSANDS of wounded personel on U.S. side all ready! But WHAT of ALL THOSE IRAQI we are "so called"LIBERATING? Their DEATHS don't matter? And what of the long term consequences.??? ALL of us who stand against THIS ONE ACT OF IGNORANCE. are doing so, for good reason, and are trying to help prevent unecessary death. YOU want to KILL...GO to Iraq and DO IT!! I think, it would do all of you some GOOD to see REALITY! But, for ANY OF YOU, to have the AUDACITY,to proclaim this war is necessary using the excuse of 9/11...you should be the FIRST to GO: right behind that chicken sh*t, lier of a president you are following!

quote:Someone wanna slap down some facts for good ol El Chi to look at? Cause apperently he's been watching to much of the Communist New's Network Lookie here El Chi, get off you're high horse and start watching some REAL new's and reading some REAL newspaper, instead of listening to all the crap that the government WANTS you to believe Anywho, sorry about going off topic, I just hate it when people ignore the facts. About Vietnam and Iraq Jaguar is right, the war is about self defense. People might not see it that way because they've been brainwashed into thinking it's something else, where in reality it's this . Just REMEMBER this: Debate is all well and good; However, the whole concept behind debating...is to FORM particular OPINION concerning a given issue. If you want FACTS...DIG from books, and TALK with REAL Vietnam VETS!! The concept, as to the validity of the war, is opinion, in itself. Facts are AVAILIABE concerning political motivations for both Vietnam and Iraq. what you will get here(and mostly from the WEB itself), is mere opinion, and most, from people who have no real concept, what war really entails. @ El che: MY OPINION: you are absolutly correct concerning our involvement in Iraq. I dont really understand it, but I keep seeing OPINIONS presented as FACTS, here. Those who insist others are brainwashed with propaganda, use television news cast, and newspapers as reference for reliable information on one hand, and scream brainwashing from the media on the other??? The pro's and con's toward our involvement in Vietnam, and the cry that the war was purely political has basis, but..Vietnam had a LONG history of war, and there was a legitimate proportion of the population fighting the, china backed NVA, which negates a lot of the conspiracy theories concerning U.S. envolvement. Winning such a war,...I believe, was beyond our means, at the time. I believe the only way to win such a war, within such an enviroment, would entail the slaughter of most of the civilians as well. like Iraq, We were not welcome there by many of the local inhabitants...as Wolfez pointed out: there was no way to determine the difference between friend and foe. One difference, between Iraq, and Vietnam, is that Vietnam had been at war for YEARS..before we went into the conflict. And every previous country which had gotten envolved, pulled out too...and for many of the same reasons. The Vietnamese were very well learned in the art of fighting in such an enviroment...And had a lot of handed down experience in trickery and methodology to use. [ 05-13-2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: street ]

I agree in your overall assessment, shen. it is true there can only be one victor.. but I do not know of ANY war, where anyone involved actually WON. if you know what I mean. We won..by beating germany in ww2, but only in that we eliminated a tremendous threat to our way of life at that time...but in reality we all lost. now I am pretty exhausted, and really dont want to get into a big debate where everyone says I am now a NAZI, but.............consider this.... IF......Germany HAD WON!.........it is now 60 years later.....Almost EVERY individual who was witness to the war is dead.......! Is the TOTAL world condition really so much worse for the inhabitants of the planet, than the present population? I will give you, that many people and cultures would have been iradicated,or drasticly changed, and the whole perspective of the surviving populations would be different, they would have adjusted, just as today,s germany adjusted througout its post war division.(does it makes you think as to, why they waited so long to drop the berlin wall?) So, would GERMANY still have WON anything after close to a century or so? I submit to you, that basicly NO, they did not WIN anything. Just as WE today did not win anything from our victory. sure we saved "A" way of life, which is still present today. And if They had won, they would have preserved "A" way of life, which would have been present today. In either scenerio..all wins and losses are are null and void. Mankind adjust, and finds a way of life regardless of political affiliations, and ideals. My point is: NO ONE WINS. The atrocity of war outweighs any victory. I am not saying there is nothing worth fighting for, but just presenting an overall concept, of winning and loosing. I would die fighting, to preserve my freedom, but if it be won or lost, would be irrelevant to the surviving population a century down the road. They may choose to change their sociological views without war, and my death be in vain,,,but it wouldnt matter. EVERYONE remotely attached to WAR looses......in my humble opinion.

cadrian, I know your what? 10th grade??..most here are much older, I have determined, but I could not agree with your post more concerning the liberal, slamming, AND the nuking in response to such an atrocity as the beheading. I too, think those responsible for that deed, need to see a just end; however, I also hold EVERY unjust deed accountable to those who are responsible, and from whichever side of the fence it may fall....so be it! Hats off to ya!!!!!!!!

if MANKIND is not an entity of and by itself, then neither is government....and we are, EVERY ONE OF US, responsible for the DEATHS of every innocent in this IRAQI conflict; thus, we need be, individually, a whole lot MORE careful when pushed to condone such an event. Personally, I want no more blood on my hands, than that which is absolutly necessary. Yes, I think we do comprehend things differently, shin, but it doesnt mean, we must be enemies. Those who are not for us, are against us...is the most blatant lie of all. there are more than TWO sides to EVERY story!!

shin, thanks for posting the list, I like reading them..dont have the time at this moment, but now their written in stone..lol Cadrian...Please DO IT!!..gonna be fun to read your creations, and anyone else who jumps in..