street228

quote:This from someone who just said that Man cannot evolve his consciousness. Make up your mind. LOL!! I will NOT debate esseonic teachings. I have studied enough ANCIENT history to know...MANKIND, does not change in intellect or conciousness...only the individual has that luxury.

quote: Street is a down right liberal, liberal's will continue to denie the truth even if it's stuffed down there throat because you keep saying it, does NOT make it true . Standing on TRADITIONAL principles and requiring my government to act with intelligent methodology ..does NOT make me a LIBERAL, by ANY definition of the word. quote:Sorry Street, you've lost this discussion, you FAIL to keep an open mind, you FAIL to read the fact's presented in front of you, you FAIL to read every post in this thread. more opinions and accusations from those who have no idea, who won or lost, and has no concept, as to how many post I have read(typical) Wouldnt it be in accordance to the observer, as in everything else in life? quote:It make's me wonder, if your a terrorist activist, I'm sorry but everything you've said make's me wonder if you DOWN RIGHT SUPPORT terrorism. (I know this is a serious accusation, but the evidence speak's for itself) This statement is as rediculous as accusing Kerry of TREASON...guess, all of us REAL VETS, are in the same class..huh? quote:Fact one: You continue to denie that we had any right to go there DISPITE THE FACTS PRESENTED TO YOU I recieved ONE article as a FACT..nothing more, and I have yet to have time to verify its validity, or the position of the writer...Guess ,our definition of facts are a bit different. quote: Fact two: WMD's where found, exposed, and presented to America and you STILL denie we found them. To be honest the only new's station that presented those facts was Fox News.. why? Cause there Fair and Balanced, there also conservatives, which mean's they won't hide the truth like the Communist New's Network (I know some of you hate it when I say that, but until they prove otherwise I will continue to call them that) I guess I missed this one too...unless you are speeking of those missles which COULD be modified to go a LITTLE greater distance qualifies as WMDs, Another difference of oppinion on what a weapon of MASS destruction is. (I KNOW we dont classify our 500 lb bombs as such...(get a grip) quote:You fail to see our side of the story, along with what we all have said I SEE your side of the STORY!!. I also see the RAGE, which has blinded you to the distinction as to WHO the TERRORIST are, and your confusion to how relevant they are to IRAQ. But..dont get upset with me...I just happen to disagree with your final conclusions concerning this: BECAUSE, bushy and his croanies are the ones who are responsible for all this confusion..NOT YOU. quote: I'm sorry Street, wait no I'm not, I HATE Al Queada for beheading a fellow american, I may not know him, but I know he was there for a good cause I ALSO hate AL QUEADA!!, I just took the time to find our WHY!!! and WHO, AL QUEADA is!! I have no regard for Hussein, and as little regard for bush, powel and rumsfield,.....But I have NO animosity for the IRAQI peoples position in this horrible fiasco created by this juvinile minded president, nor do I have any hate toward men who fight for their own independence from military oppression...when THEY are not the one,s at fault. quote: quote:abar Khan, a Kabul shopkeeper, said: "This beheading is a good act because the Iraqis have been oppressed and whoever is oppressed should defend themselves. As a Muslim I support this act." Statements like these, just make's me support the dropping of a NUCLEAR bomb on Iraq itself For you to support such statement, it tells me that your AGAINST America in general. Just like a liberal... Here we go again..... First, I did not make that statement, I merely provided it as an example, as to why we are NOT succeding in this SO CALLED LIBERATION. One CANNOT liberate through OPPRESSION.....PERIOD!!!! Second, I do not SUPPORT his statement of hate toward AMERICANS, but support his right to fight an invading military occupation of oppressive distructive might.....AND THEN....ONLY....when the invasion was an UNWARRENTED reprisal, for something, another GROUP conspired!!!! Believe it or not. I would have the same views, if the situation were reversed, and we were invaded on like terms, and reason...duh!!!

quote: Until Mankind evolves into a higher state of consciousness, someone must hold the sword! That means a whole lot of covert ops and immoral actions to subvert the enemy. Because in the really real world, it's kill or be killed. You need to decide if you're with the side that gives you the basic "right" to choose, or are you with the side that crushes all dissention in an iron fist. Man evolve to a higher conciousness??? Maybe when he dies...not before. We are the same creature with the same intellectual capabilities, we have had since NOAH. OUR toys, and understanding of physics may be greater, but our intellect has remained constant. The REAL WORLD, its kill or be killed?....no, I assure you, that is the GAME world. The real world can be whatever you choose it to be. If one enviroment is to your distaste,You have the option to change the enviroment around you, or move. Entirely up to you. TREATING others in your world, with the same methodology, you wish to be treated...goes a long long way. (this is true personally and internationally) I see some who claim to give a right to choose, which crush all dessintion with an iron fist...Bush,is but one. The fact is, it aint over till its over. WE,the American people, CAN yet bring change for the better. It is NOT too late. to choose, the apparant winning side, is the actions of those, who are already defeated. My AMERICA. MY FREEDOM and EVERY Principle on which it was founded, will NEVER be defeated. People will always rise up and take a stand...even through the ashes of apparant defeat!!

well $ilk/ I mean Jag, A) ...is questionable at best. ....Was and IS an out-right fabrication C)....irrelevant in respect to the imoralilty of our actions... in the time frame and methodology, in which, they(our actions) were instigated. D) someone stating it as fact, or referring to some opinionated article is no PROOF OF ANYTHING. I know you dont like the things I state, nor do you choose to see the MORAL principles desicated before your very eyes. But, please....take a little time, to seperate your hatred, and anger toward the REAL enemy...."AL QUEADA" and this bastard dictator.."HUSSEIN"...which is just one of many throughout the world. Insight, into the position of others, will give you an advantage throughout your whole life..in obtaining :(OBJECTIVE reason...The most powerful tool in the world)

quote:Her reply was that she feared I couldsomehow lose my benefits if our government became annoyed with what I have to say about them First I agree so much with what I read in your post, I am speechless. Second, I can relate with the emotions you experianced when you first heard that speach (I had almost an identical reaction) And finally, I understand your response to your wife, Mine would probably be just as emotional. BUT, it is ALMOST there. Bush did try to alienate any who disagreed with him and depict them, as TERRORIST, or at the very least "UNPATRIOTIC FOOLS". When he came on Television and started SLAMMING the character of those AMERICANS who said NO to war, and insinuated they were somehow unpatriotic and held sentiment in favor of TERRORISM, I about fell to the floor..It took about 30 minutes for it to really sink in... what he really was saying. Then I became so angry, I could spit nails. These Patriot Acts, have put us in a position, where WE MUST FEAR what we say!!! We could very easily be deemed a terrorist, and get NO legal representation. I was so peeved, I considered yanking up roots and moving to some remote 3rd world country for several months...Then I decided, it would be more appropriate, for me to stay, and run off the ones who are truly unpatriotic to what MY AMERICA STANDS FOR, or die trying.

quote:t still doesn't negate the fact that there are still people out there that will execute you, simply because your are American. Have you bothered to stop, and ask yourself...........WHY?

quote:Custer was an idiot to advance on the position held my those "Indians"...and anyone who followed him into death. I don't yet see the same parallel. Custer,like bush, jumped without thinking rationally. Custer had a personal grudge against indians. He hated them in a prejedicial fashion,like bush and his hate toward saddam. Custer was arrogant and head strong, because of the soldiers around him and the great superiority of his weapons,like bush. And Custer,and those around him were brought down by the gathering of the enemies he did breed, through his actions and his arrogance; with nothing but primitive arrows........MOST likely the same will ensue those who follow this childish and arrogant leader(bush)...maybe not today, or tomorrow, POSSIBLY in the, not so distant, future.

quote: People like you worry me...and you say you've been apart of the U.S. Armed Services? During combat? No offense, but I don't think that I would want you in my squad.LOL......No offense taken. My views today, are much more, well rounded, than the views I held when I JOINED the military. I have years of experiance, which have molded my perspective. I assure you shen, if the chips were down, and you needed a friend, Id give my life for any fellow American in a heartbeat....On the other hand, (TODAY!), If I had orders to Kill people who posed no threat to me. I'd just as likely shoot my commanding officer! I did not make up that quote, but retrieved it from cnn headline news cast. It was an attempt to show, that OPPRESSION is a perceived state. AND no matter how WE perceive our actions in iraq; MANY feel their lives have been utterly DESTROYED, and they are being oppressed by an outside military force. It is sad, BUT in all truth, they are absolutly correct. Military Occupation is HELL for our soldiers, but even more so, for those subjected to it. I submit,

General Custer, and many american's loyal to that position paid an awesome price for holding that position...too; thus, our county evolved. REALLY sad to actually live to see it REGRESS.

reality check...lost!! Bush is doing nothing, but scrambling...trying to get out of hot water, and fast. These solutions for the passing the power to a puppet government, in no way, negates the terrible nature, of our act. And will NOT have any degree of success, under the currant atmosphere and condition within iraq. Just as the move into iraq, was a jump, with no regard to consequence. This POLITICAL scramble is just more of the same. If our LEADERS were so intent on liberating, They could have stood on that principle alone. they should have used rational thought, in a slow, controlled and decisive mannor; rather than, inciting WAR, with lies and deceit....while rushing in, with a haphazard (in the world's face)fashion. Lost, It is DONE....THAT cannot be changed. In the END, I hope for the best. We, as americans, must admit when we are wrong, and fix, what we mess up.(yeah right!!) No MATTER what economic or sociological benefit, to us, the world, or to Iraq; there has been irrepairable damage, done to almost EVERY significant ALLY we have in the world. AND we have strengthened the TERRORIST underground movement against us. It will be AT LEAST 50-60 years, before the benefit will be begin to show its head. AND THEN, only if we somehow, avoid WW3 or a REAL ARMAGEDDON, throughout the process. I am FAR SIGHTED, but my eyes see in more than one direction concerning the consequence of this bumbling, juvinile of a president's actions. and HERE is one of MANY, from the other perspective: quote:abar Khan, a Kabul shopkeeper, said: "This beheading is a good act because the Iraqis have been oppressed and whoever is oppressed should defend themselves. As a Muslim I support this act."

LOL, I want one, but first.... they MUST remove the windows operating system!!

quote:I don't actually have any evidence to either prove or disprove that he's the devil, but I'm working on it. Let us know when you get the scoop...

I believe both kalshion and shingen are correct in their statements or post Shin, Not all conspiracies are the psychotic babbalings of the near insane...MOST have a basis, or, at the very least, some foundation to which they are built. I like to try and neutralize a given conspiracy, and if it cannot be done...well, who knows....? [ 05-12-2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: street ]

quote:f there was EVER any doubt that Al quaeda had ties with Iraq, it is the beheading of this CIVILIAN communications specialist PLEASE!! Anyone should be able to recognize, that we were already at war with al queda, and their entry into this war, was to be EXPECTED. Lets not form our own facts, based on conclusive speculation. That is what got us caught up in this mess in the first place. quote:They need to be humiliated, ot teach them that they will NOT get away with this crap any longer. Again, let us not misplace our anger at the INNOCENT Iraqi, who took too many rations from the water line, and ended up in PRISON. WE Americans, are better than SADDAM...ARENT WE? quote: If there is one more murder of an American, or Israele, or ANY other nationality by a Muslim extremist, Mecca glows in the dark, if it happens again, Saudi Arabia, glows in the dark, if it happens after that, Iran, then Syria, until the Muslims are wiped from the face of the earth Like we didnt BOMB a couple HUNDRED THOUSAND to shreds, during the first 10 days of the war??? REALLY!..We are not so PURE! quote:I am PISSED, this beheading has set me off like nothing else. If the Muslim fanatics do not watch, they are going to bring down a wrath like they have NEVER experienced before. That's it!! Play into their hands!(dont feel bad, even the president didnt have enough sense to take this thing one step at a time, and was bent on dragging another muslim nation into this problem with Al QUEADA, without dealing with AL QUEADA!! ) quote: And you did NOT answer the question Street, what happens when these maniacs attack us with a Biological or chemical weapon, that was made in Iraq and smuggled out before we invaded. I dont KNOW they have EITHER!! but if you say so, it must be true. quote: These poor terrorists, most of them are millionaires, Osama Bin Laden is a BILLIONAIRE!!! So it's NOT money, so it must be America that created the problem and we're just reaping what we sowed? It is principle, check out the history concerning this whole ALQUEADA situation. but first, wipe iraq from your mind(I think you are getting as confused as the president, as to which is which) quote:Sorry, maybe you don't hate America, you just sound like it since Bush is in office, right? NOT agreeing with the IMMORALITY of KILLING HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people, based on lies.....I fail to see, this is HATE for my country. I hate the (IGNORANCE=Lack of knowledge) of those who fell for the LIES, and the result it will Ultimately have on MY COUNTRY!! quote: And why are you going to vote for Kerry? Because you hate Bush, or have you figured out what Kerry stands for? Because I am clueless at this point as to what he has to offer, except, "I'm not Bush.." It is NOT what Kerry has to offer, BUT what Kerry is NOT offering(i.e. blind ignorance in action) and what BUSH is demonstrating...(i.e too damn stupid to look at things objectively BEFORE going into RECKLESS mode) --------------------------------------------- quote: I've been reading this political debate and have to say that im torn between streets and shingins debates. Leaning slightly more towards street. I also thought its kinda scary that the warmonger, as I see it, is the offensive advisor in a warmongering battlecruiser race... just thought I would add my thoughts. No offense to shingin but street seems slighty better informed although I do have one thing to say. This goes back awhile but Hitler was not a genius in any sense of the word, except perhaps lies, it was rather his advisors that were the intelligent ones. When ever Hitler took command of an operation it usually failed. I may not be as well educated or informed, sophmore in highschool, but I do belive what I have just said. Cadrian, I can admit, the war strategy, may not have been entirely, hitlers Genius in action. But he accomplished a facinating feat. I really cant debate his genius, so much as admire the idea, of going from vagrant, to ALMOST world conquorer, in 7 years. quote:Important new information has come from Edward Jay Epstein about Mohammed AttaÔÇÖs contacts with Iraqi intelligence... Steve, good article, I will have to read it and compare notes...I will get back to you. I have been on the conservative end of the stick, for about 30 years now, but I still see a definative problem with the actions of this specific administration....I voted for the man... who could know he was a half wit?? quote:If a husband doesn't kill his wife, but rather, hires a thug to kill his wife, can one say that the husband didn't kill his wife? If Saddam Hussein funded terrorists, and provided safe haven and training facilities for the terrorists who did kill Americans, is that not the same as the husband who hires a thug to kill his wife? the BIG word here, is still "IF". Conclusive evidence, has yet to be confirmed in SADDAM funding and training TERRORIST. We still must maintain our self respect, as a nation, and wait until we KNOW, before we KILL. On the same logic, if our armys are allowed to indiscriminately KILL, based on mere suspician. Then, the TERRORIST would be correct, in assuming there are no innocent observers in america...as we all stand behind our government through PAID taxation. This very logic allows the attack on 9/11 appear more justified than ever. All I ask, is WE AMERICANS, take a long hard look at our own actions, BEFORE, being so willing to KILL. quote: Notice how, since Saddam has been captured, terrorist groups like al-Islam are now forced to rob banks to raise funds? Previously, they were funded by Hussein, but that source of money has dried up. It was bound to happen. Taking the resources from the TERRORIST organizations, was definately a good move; BUT to attribute, ALL their aquired financing to SADDAM, is a mistake. SADDAM would have been a great asset, if in fact he was contributing, but I would assert, ALL THE OTHER KNOWN sources, which have been seized, are most likely attributed to their loss of revenue. But again, to be quite honest, Why not finance a common enemy to the united states, AFTER the beginning of the Invasiion? Who could blame him at that point? The sad fact is, WE STILL dont KNOW. quote:I find it hard to believe anyone who would have a picture of Adolph Hitler in their profile! Yes, it was an INSIDE JOKE. and YES it has been REMOVED....And Yes it was RECENT....AND Yes, it may have been in bad taste, but I never claimed to be a GOOD comedian!! quote: And I am a warmonger because I agree with President Bush that he should have attacked and destroyed Saddam Housien, that I believe that we should fight back against aggression and the killing of 3000 civilians by Islamofascist terrorists on 911? Still confusing the 2 (count em...TWO) totally different people. SADDAM was not the one BEHIND 9/11...Or was it a mistake to go after OSAMA? I will get back on that conservative paper's artical on the connection, but AT THE TIME we chose to INVADE and KILL IRAQI, we only had speculation, and so far, that is all we have. quote:Do you think that the civilian worker in Iraq, who happened to be an American trying to help put the infrastructure back together, deserved to die, because we made Iraqi Insurgent prisoners put Women's panties on their heads? first, he was part of an invading army, no distinction as an innocent. second ANY who invades MY country, will DIE, If I can get to them. Why should they not be allowed their own loyalty to their own country? Third, that culture(some one your bible derived from) STONED women for having sex with any, but their own husband. This has been going on for thousands of years. It is not even close to sane thinking, to assume, we will walk into their country and change EVERYTHING they are and how they act, with bombs and guns and money and propoganda.....in just over a year!!! quote:He was beheaded, ON VIDEO, they made him state his name, his mothers name, his fathers name, then his sisters and his brothers, then, as he was begging for his life, they slit his throat with a knife and as he screamed they cut his head off like an animal.... And this is somehow the same as making Iraqi prisoners put panties on their heads and stand around naked? Oh, and then they proudly displayed his head for the camera, while chanting Allah Akbar..... This is somehow the same? Come on, can we get real here? yes, i agree "TERRIBLE", and NO NOT the SAME. It much MORE attrocious, to drop THOUSANDS of BOMBS on couple hundred thousand human beings, who's only goal was to protect their country from aggressive foreign invaders" quote: With this type of pansy attitude, we deserve to lose this war on terrorism, because it is survival of the fittest here dude. On the contrary, we DESERVE to WIN the war on terrorism...WE deserve to LOOSE,only when we are the TERRORIST. We are the ones who have terrorized IRAQI, and they were NEVER THE TERRORIST who declared war upon us!!! quote: This is not a war like Vietnam, it is either Us or them. Either they die, or we die.... TRUE, both vietnam, and korea, were already divided into fights to achieve democracy. We were merely assisting the side who wished it. WE have turned this into a "them or us" situation with the iraqi. They never attacked US, and THEY were not the ones who declared war on us. WE invaded their country on false pretense. EVERYONE knows it now, but they still cling to freeing poor iraqi on one hand, and KILL ALL THEM MUSLIM TERRORIST IN IRAQ, on the other hand. Is like having Dr. Jekal and Mr. Hyde, in the white house!!!!!!!!!!! quote: Ensign Member # 1518 Rate Member posted 05-12-2004 10:23 AM Mans' inhumanity to man...... Wolverez, EVERYONE should read your post, atleast once a day...and maybe we could ALL re-focus our anger into a more constructive purpose and more REALISTIC perspective quote: Ensign Member # 4475 Member Rated: posted 05-12-2004 10:27 AM Crap, you mean that is hitler. I saw that picture the other day and thought it looked liked him but then thought it was probably a picture of a scientist that just resembled him seeing that one of streets intrests is Physics. Doh! my own little sarcastic, inside joke. I think Jag gets the peanut for its discovery..but none the less, I almost put bush in there. And Jaq, I know you would love to have a good excuse to fry my bacon, so I did REMOVE it.

lol...young and fool hearty!!

quote:If that bear walked into my camp and killed one of my family, then I'd probably hunt it no matter what domain it was in. NOT one IRAQI killed ANY AMERICAN, until after we killed THOUSANDS of IRAQI!!...FACT! quote: People who fight invading armies, and believe in some sort of God, don't behead people for the benefit of the World Press. It's quite obvious (at least to me), that there's something else going on besides the "liberation of Iraq for the Infernal Americans". I suggest you do a little study concerning the history of customs throughout the world. They still chop off hands of thieves in some places, and stone those guilty of incest, adultry, and fornication. (many of the moral atrocities, we legalize and condone) Should they not be allowed their beliefs, as a people? just as we allow sodomy, homosexuality,and many other immoral acts within our society? We execute with electricity, running poison into peoples veins, gas chambers. so they chopped off a couple invaders heads and burned their bodies...wow...big difference!!. You keep forgetting, those people in those prisons were not TERRORIST, but most were put there for what we term misdomenor crimes, If I were one of those prisoners being humiliated and tormented in those SEXUAL pictures...there would be nothing in the world to stop me from killing every damn american I ran across,once freed, and for the rest of my life. You cannot imagine, how many may have been run through that kind of treatment, and then released for one reason, or another. would you deny your moral principles and just let it go? Possibly, being an american. But to them, that treatment is WORSE than death.

quote:I think that if you hold up those pictures of the so-called "prision abuse", and you hold up the video currently being shown of the beheading of an American civilian, that it becomes obvious which side holds the most "moral ground"I thought you didnt go for the media rhetoric?. ...It is the PICTURES that are NOT shown, which concerns me!!! Been there..seen first hand what happens in situations similar to the IRAQ occupation. That American CIVILIAN was part of an invading occupational army, to them, and holds no distinction from our military; thus ,is not exempt from attack or execution within a war zone.(we execute some of them everyday, just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Many of which are innocent, I assure you). do you really think we stop, when they stop firing? hell, Americans are'nt saints in the battlefield. Many Iraqi civilians have witnessed the TRUTH of what goes on when an army occupies by force. MANY innocent civilians are killed. WOW, they killed some of our CIVILIANS?(who should not have even been there) sorry, but it is...almost funny, how most AMericans react. We as a people want to KILL, but its some inhumane atrocity, when one of us gets killed.(so we have developed ways to kill, where we cant be reached.) We have the same logic, here at home, with our local police. police can try to kill someone for running, but that someone better not try to defend themselves. We as AMERICANS are so brainwashed in accepting RULE by COHERSIVE force,(threat of death) It has become incomprehensable, that someone would do the same, or worse to those instigating that rule by force, or even to oppose it. quote: I think that it obvious, given the entire written history of Mankind, that in certain circumstances the end does in fact justify the means. I do NOT believe HISTORY will establish this AGRESSIVE act, by us, as one of those "CERTAIN" circumstances you speak of. quote: I think it's obvious, that if those terrorist were as sound in the beliefs, as they are secure in their willingness to slaughter innocents, that they would be proud to display their faces to the world, and confront their enemies without having to hide from the general Iraqi Populace. would YOU walk up to a GRIZZLY with a buck knife, and attempt to run him from your domain? I think not...and that would not mean you were any less of a man. BESIDES, you keep referring to those in iraq as TERRORIST. (again, I thought you didnt buy into bush or media rhetoric?) People who fight INVADING armies, are NOT TERRORIST!!; though I am sure this whole escapade, has given those around the world a common cause for a more cohesive Terrorist movement against us. Even the JEWS sold each other out, that they might survive the DEATH camps. It is human nature. Those within an underground...MUST hide from the general population, or risk being exposed by a TRAITOR. There are historical examples of many such occurances in similar situations. quote: Should I keep going? If you feel you must [ 05-11-2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: street ]

quote:Nevermind. You keep talking in circles and don't even realize it. I don't buy into "Bush rhetoric" "liberal rhetoric" or "media rhetoric", but I also don't ignore the obvious to support my own ideology. ok, you don't buy into the BUSH RHETORIC etc.etc.(I can accept that) I suppose, I am so use to being challenged by "so called facts", which are derived from the political arena, I jumped the gun on you...My apologies. I would never ask an individual to ignore their own ideologies, provided they inflict no undue harm on innocent human beings. Now, tell me how I talk in circles, and am not aware of it........(?)

quote:If all of these murderers you claim are merely Iraqi dissidents fighting American Imperialism, then why is it that they all wear hoods and masks when they behead prisoners for the World media? because they are smarter than those americans who tormented those iraqi held in the prison?(took pictures of their own identity while committing the crime..lol) Maybe, they didnt want to end up dead or in prison? would you hide your face, if an enemy bent to kill you,saw you fighting?..I know commen sense would dictate one to hide one's identity when fighting an enemy from within the enemy camp. maybe the same logic to you? If they are terrorist, and all terrorist are bent on self sacrifice, they would not be wearing hoods?; therefore, they are not terrorist? I never said they were ALL freedom fighters, but every day I can assure to you, more and more are!!!! Which Iraqi people would protect them? If we were overwhelmed by a military force or occupation, you could bet your LIFE there would be millions of americans cooperating with the enemy, for their own survival. And THOSE Americans would soon be your enemy too, unless you succumbed to the occupation. All I ask you to do: Is turn off Bush rhetoric for five minutes, and put yourself in the AVERAGE IRAQI's shoes. Then tell me how GREAT, EXCITING, and HONORABLE WAR and KILLING is!! edit: you know, I HAVE killed(not a thing I am proud of, though it felt necessary at the time) I have held my best friends brains in his head, hoping against all odds we would both survive. There are NO winners in WAR; Thus, it NEEDS to be reserved for ABSOLUTELY a LAST resort! [ 05-11-2004, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: street ]

The more intense the scrutiny: the more careful the culprits will become. I would think, it would work more to law enforcement's advantage, to be more discreat in publicity, and allow those code writers the illusion of concealment. (unless of course), they see themselves as extremely lucky, this time around. And are attempting to scare off potential malicious programmers from participating. Either way, I see no advantage in bragging about two arrest in over 5 years. The result would appear counter-productive to me.

Lost, I see your anology, and I can absolutly relate to the idea of legitamacy it holds; however, I do not agree with some of the primise on which it is built. If this were the TRUE primise for our actions within the IRAQI country, there would have been no need for the long list of lies concerning our initial involvement. The connection with 9/11 would not have been needed to instigate the move. All of the propaganda concerning 9/11,Al Queda, WMD, would not have been necessary. On another front: If there were such a LARGE silent majority within its borders. Wouldnt there be a much Larger silent majority in Korea, Red China, Russia, and ANY other country, which is not in accord with our way of thinking? I say: Possibly, but not likely. We, as human beings, have a tendency to adhere to that which are aquainted with. Especially if it is something we have been subjected to,from birth. The COLONIES, were from a different perspective, concerning ENGLAND. The colonist fled to the NEW World to ESCAPE. They Enjoyed many years, of freedom, with little outside influence from england. The voyages took too long across the atlantic. The excessive taxation, was a mere hinderence, where as they had to prepare to survive throughout the coming winters. It was more: the PRINCIPLE, that ENGLAND, was once again establishing its hold, along with its insatiable desire to use the ideals of the INQUISITION to limit religeous freedoms and the use of SOLDIERS to enforce their ideals upon the colonist, which contributed most toward the revolt. To hold to a moral ideology of promoting freedom, is an honorable thing. It is abhorent to take such an honorable ideal, and misuse its purpose. Do you really feel, Our Ideals are so GRAND to those who have no idea, what they entail? If we were to tell EVERYONE in CHINA,that we are going to give them our form of FREEDOM, do you think the MAJORITY would want it? I think not. Our ideals are good for us, but they conflict with the fundemental foundation which other populations have based their entire way of life, and thinking. And to enforce such on others would be contrary to the foundation which our ideals are built. If Our perspective is so GRAND, and our ideals, standards, and way of life is so infallable, WHY must we fight to promote it. Wouldnt every individual on the planet say yea? We are OBLIGATED by our ideals of freedom and democracy, to help those who request our assitance in achieving it. It is not logical to assume the majority of any horrible dictatorship is wanting our form of democracy. I would assert that the MAJORITY of the IRAQI were content within their form of government. The dissadents to the iraqi regieme were welcome to come into the united states, to flee their oppressive government.As many did throughout the years. Is this not WHY we have an open border policy to ANY who choose freedom? I do not understand, where the AMERICAN IDEAL to promote freedom, has gotten confused with the TYRANNY of AMERICANS conquoring and holding another country under military rule. coming to the aid of a country(as we did with kewait) is one thing entirely. INVASION and Conquoring another country on false pretense, is quite another. [ 05-11-2004, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: street ]

Jag, I need say no more. I have spoken the most intelligent and logical statements possible. Every man woman and child in the United States, has need to take heed. for you to repeat all the lies and propaganda, which was used to compel the citizens of this Great country, to carry out this single act of immorality, is extremely pathetic. That which is currently being revealed, and all the facts which have been surfacing, over the last year, have disproven 90% of your entire statement. You show a great need to disregard ANYTHING the media says, provided it does not agree with the mind set, Which that SAME media has instilled with-in you. ALL those SUPPOSED actions, which IRAQI would do to us, very well may be their agenda NOW. And NOW, who could blame them. We have Invaded their country. Killed many thousands of innocents(maybe the relatives of those innocents welcomes our liberation..yeah right!).Now there are publicly displayed examples of our actions: that we TORTURE and ABUSE. Only the AMERICAN people(of all throughout the world) believe these things do not happen, or that they only happen in small isolated cases, during WAR. That in itself, should tell you something, as to how much the media controls the way Americans think. Again, I would like you to point me to your source of information, as to the connections between IRAQ and the ALQUEDA...or TERRORIST!!..It simply does not exist!!!! Even the president and his WAR TEAMS have been running to keep up with their retreat from all the accusations they made prior to the war. Point me to your information as to the WMD. You speak of 25 million people delivered from a rougue dictatorship. That again is old propaganda. Sure, I give you it was a harsh dictatorship...so how about america jumping on N.KOREA..come on use common sense. Syria Next?? it would figure! Still saying, there is no parrallel between Adolf/bush? Again, the question is how far are we going to go, and How will WE be stopped, and by who?. What are you saying? The END justifies the MEANS???? or its ok to kill hundreds of thousands of those 25 million to liberate a couple million who want liberation???? You forget. THOSE (SO CALLED) Terrorist are a product of our internatiional policies. They were NEVER a threat to the UNITED STATES, until we armed them, used them, and discarded them. AND THAT is the AL QUEDA.(Afghan/pakistan boarder pushton army backing, via: U.S. policies set up to put strain on the russian economy during russia's involvement in afghanistan) That is where the training camps are, and WE built, supplied, and trained them to do what they do best...against the russian backed northern alliance. We abandoned them when russia pulled out of afghanistan. THAT is when they used those same training fecilities and methods, and turned against us(and with some justification, I might add) AL Queda, may NOW be our sworn enemy, but this garbage of IRAQ as the TERRORIST, WMD and IRAQ as a a threat, WAS and IS a blatant, out right LIE, used to promote the INVASION of IRAQ. It has been PROVEN as such, and ADMITTED as FALSE, for what ever excuse, they choose to use. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO! AL QUEDA CONNECTION WITH OUR ACTIONS IN IRAQ!!!! again POINT ME TO YOUR INFORMATION SOURCE!!!!! [ 05-11-2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: street ]

quote:4: Again, don't kid yourself. We just got lucky with that. Do you think that Hitler would have gone as far as he did if we intervened sooner in that mess. But nooooo, as usual we sat on our a$$es while he trampled and took over Europe and anyone else he could think of he'd like to take over. And Lost....I think the question that should be asked of us is: "how far do WE intend to go, who will intervene to stop US; HOW and at WHAT cost to US or the rest of the world?" These are questions we should be asking ourselves, and our leaders; opposed to being caught up in the mob mentality against muslims, which is likened unto the mob mentality we presented toward the asians during ww2/korea/vietnam eras. there is one thing which really bugs me about the presented attutudes of the American population, since bush started his media campaign to INVADE IRAQ. IRAQ, was NEVER our personal enemy, and we successfully repelled their invasion of Kewait 12 years ago. why must we confuse the events of 9/11 with this administrations need to control the iraqi people, or it's government, or it's country's resource? NOT ONE IRAQI did ANYTHING to ANY ONE AMERICAN, until we sent troops into THEIR country. How can we be so blind, as a people, that we cannot see, the marring of our character(as a nation), and the guilt of our actions: FOR EVERY DEATH INCURRED during this horrible(i.e.WAR: been there, seen it) occupation. I still wake up at night seeing things, no man should ever witness. If the american people could see the horror which has ensued, they would NEVER opt. for WAR, and would AGAIN reserve WAR as a truly LAST resort. Bush and his preemption to WAR? I pray the man burns in the very hell he perceives his GOD would preserve him from. sorry, but that is how I feel about it.

quote: This is a blanket statement and there's really no way that the average joe on the street could know for sure. Do you think that average U.S. citizens in 1941 were aware of the European resistance to Nazi Germay? Do you think that Roosevelt would've let those Europeans perish if Japan (an Ally of Germany) hadn't initially attacked Pearl Harbor? Did you know for certain that there wasn't an active resistance against Saddam Hussain before we invaded during "Desert Storm" and later "Iraqi Freedom"? (YES)My Grandfather was an average joe, He knew, as did most of the people in my home town, at the time. And (YES), I KNOW the average american was aware of the resistance. I spent many a weekend watching the old b/w films when converting them to vhs while in college. Rosevelt was caught in a catch/22; thus, My answer is again (YES) And how do I know for certain there wasnt an active resistance??. Because, the one we inspired was quelched, without the promised aid ever to have been delivered. It is only Logical, there was no ACTIVE resistance alive at the time prior to IRAQI FREEDOM. It was only a very small and minor portion of the population ,to begin withm, DURING OPERATION DESERT STORM. And we , bolstered it to reveal itself; then did NOTHING to protect them. quote: Are you that well connected? No more than any other, well read and inquisitive, person, who is willing to see more than one perspective concerning: TRUTH. quote:I don't think that Hitler was a military genius. If he was a genius at anything, it would've been lies, deception, and the ablity to influence. Now, here is my dilimma. I see, as do many a professor, the GENIUS which Hitler's overall military operations. I also see the GENIUS in BUSH's lies, deception and the ability to influence!!(not that hitler did not do the same!!" quote:We can agree that there are alot of parallels between the German policy of the 1930s and U.S. policy over the last 30 years. History has a tendency to repeat itself. AND that is EXACTLY my point: Concerning the Legitimacy in presenting the coorelation between the PRE WW2 German government and it's population's mind-set; with the Bush Administration and it's population's mind set. They are INGENIUSLY circumnavigating EVERYTHING our constitution and way of life have stood for, since the beginning. FOR THE PEOPLE; BY THE PEOPLE/FREEDOMS FROM UNDUE SEARCH AND SEIZURE/RIGHTS FOR THE ACCUSED/FREEDOM OF CHOICE/etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc. ps: not to mention INVADING weaker countries for their RESOURCES...

now, that review, makes me want to buy it and give it a whirl.