John Prezioso

I didn't mean to get so out of countenance, myself, Jag, but I feel like I'm always on the defensive when discussing this topic, even though I'm trying to discuss it intellectually and objectively. Bah, I'm probably too senstitive about it to be able to discuss it anyway. Grizzle, your point about scientists having the beliefs just like the religious is SPOT ON. The difference is that if a scientist doesn't know something, he or she will make it a point to find out what they want to know through study, experimentation, and analysis. If a religious person sees something they can't explain, they might call it a "sacred mystery", refer to their faith, and move on. I see the value in both myself. In regards to scientifc elitism, I will only refer to Nomad's previous point about elitism. quote:Elitism is to be found in every human activity, regardless of the nature of said activity. Clearly, religion has its elitists as well. Ever been told that if you don't join religion 'x', your doomed to eternity in Hell? I have. Absolute rubbish. Who is man to say what will be the final judgement? I have no time for people like that, and if you think about it, you could probably think of a few religious elitists yourself. Don't judge all religion based soley on them. Conversely, I'll be more clear when referring to scienctific elitism by illustrating that I understand that is not the norm; moreover, as I see it, most of scientific elitists are not the scientists themselves, (though some are, in my view) but those who would use the findings of science to demean another persons faith. (No one here of course.)

Jag - I really am not sure what the HELL you're ranting about... could you please show where I claimed persecution? Hell, if I did think I was being persecuted, I still wouldn't care, since I live in a country where I can pretty much believe and do as I want. What you seem to fail to comprehend is that I was attempting to debunk the myth that only less intelligent people have need of religion, and that once you become an "intellectual", religion is supposed to become obviously bogus. The thinking goes, once you are smart enough to try to seek scientific causality in a situation you are not "dumb" enough to need religious fulfillment. Anyway, I'm not sure who pissed in your wheaties, but your beligerence and vehemence is a perfect example of why I normally stay the hell out of religious discussions. I for one am through with this topic.

What seems to have happened to me during the 20th Century is that science has BECOME a religion. Science has gone down the road of elitism; that is to say, scientists are considered 'impeachable sources' and become very threatened when their collectively held belief system is in any way threatened by something so "silly" as religion. What I find amusing is that when science makes a guess to fill in the gaps, it is called a 'theory'. But when religion fills in those empty spaces for some people, it is called wishful or primitive thinking. Why is science viewed any different in this regard? As SILK has said, there are MANY instances where science can't prove the theories that we hold practically as law, yet we DO hold them as such. Science can prove that gravity exists and determine its basic rules, but it can NOT in any way explain what MAKES the rules that way. It doesn't have to; it is not really necessary for science to explain WHY the rules for gravity are as they are. Science's worth is figuring out WHAT rules govern our universe, and using that knowledge to better life in said universe. The biggest myth in my opinion when discussing science and religion is that intellect is somehow inversely proportional to adherence to religious beliefs and principles. From a vast amount of personal experience coupled with an extensive study into the personal lives of several key scientific historical minds has proven quite the contrary. To briefly cover my background, I studied nuclear engineering and physics as well as electrical engineering in the military for my position as a nuke electrician; I studied to be an engineering labratory technician, was extensively trained in every system on board a Ballistic Missile Nuclear Submarine (SSBN), the machine Omni Magazine voted the second most complex man-made machine second only to the space shuttle in 1999, and spent 3 years as a Nuclear Instructor to young Naval recruits before leaving the Navy and entering the industrial electrical engineering field for a local production plant in Memphis. I am not trying to brag; I wanted to illustrate my familiarity with science and scientific analysis. With what I consider a pretty technical background wholly grounded in science, I still believe that our existence is by intelligent design, and our evolution was part of a plan, and very little of any significance in our universe is random. Any chaos or randomness that exists was expressly created for a reason. I would never insult someone else for believing differently from myself, and I would hope for the same respect for my personal belief system from anyone who disagreed.

quote: Ah, but isn't that what you are doing by choosing one faith over another? By choosing Christianity over others aren't you claiming to understand the mind of God? In a word, no. I am aligning myself with the religion that I believe God set forth for mankind to follow when He sent His Son to Earth. You'll not catch me extolling the virtues of my religion over another, I can assure you. To use a metaphor, religion is like a car. When you have a destination that you must arrive at, it doesn't matter so much whether you drive a yugo or a vette, so long as you get there. As far as your assertion that religion is a leftover from primitive man's need to explain the unexplainable, I can only say I disagree. Not much use in arguing about it, I suppose. And I certainly hope no lightning ever DOES find you.

Well, once in a while I get deep... but I get over it quickly.

Grizzle - There are those who believe that every single terrible event is a vengeful and angry God punishing those who have sinned. The parallels to them are quite clear - the tsunami and Pakistani earthquake "obviously" were retribution for the evil Muslims perpetrate on the world, they say. Even 9/11 and our recent rash of hurricanes are examples of God's anger at us Americans for ignoring the divine providence that the Founding Fathers themselves wrote about many times being the biggest reason for the existence of America. I have read many articles proclaiming the Jews' massacre during WW2 was their punishment for forsaking their deliverance as the chosen people of God so many times. I could go on, but you get the picture. There is a reason for this line of thinking of course; the Bible tells us that God has wrought destruction upon mankind before. How much worse could New Orleans be compared to the state Sodom and Ghamorha (spelling?) were described? The problem comes from men trying to say that they understand the mind of God. Not only is this foolish and arrogant, it is potentially dangerous. Misrepresentation of God's motives by those with no knowledge whatsoever of them weakens and destroys the faith of many who might otherwise try to understand what faith is all about. I can't give you the answer you are hoping to hear, because the truth is I myself don't know. I have my theories, my educated guesses, but I can't say for sure. I can only say that I BELIEVE that God does what He does without council, for He requires no more than His own, and it is not for us to question, or even understand; only believe. Does this stop me from questioning or trying to understand? What do you think? I AM only human, after all...

The trouble stems from the fact that God is not about to part the clouds with His hand and speak with a divine voice we all could hear and know was His. (Or, at least I don't think He is, but who am I to say?) There was no hand from the sky stopping those planes from crashing into the towers. There was no divine lightning that came down and saved those men who had their heads sawed off after many agonizing hours of terror in captivity in Iraq. No invisible shields protected all of the children in Beslan when the raid went bad. The Tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands, the earthquake in Pakistan - the list goes on and on. For whatever reason, God has removed Himself from giving the significant and obvious divine aid the Israelites enjoyed in the Old Testament. Does that mean that God has stopped helping mankind? In my opinion, absolutely not. But back when seas were parting and the dead were raised by the Hand of God, faith was somewhat easier to come by. That, in my opinion, is the rub. It is God's plan (in my belief) that those who believe today must come to that belief with only the gentlest of divine prodding and encouragement, so small that it could easily be rationalized away by 100 different explanations. Ultimately, the unverifiability of faith-based subjects is apparently by divine design, and faith will often run counter to logic and science. What this does is cause believers to mostly respond to challenges of their faith by declaring that the very point of faith is to not 'see' and still believe, much along the lines of what Jesus said to Thomas when they met for the first time after the Resurrection. Conversely, skeptics, doubters, and non-beleivers point to the convenience of this very concept since it in essence requires no proof. Ultimately, the scientific verification of intelligent design is probably well beyond our capability, and it is probably for a reason. I believe that 'proof' is only necessary for those without faith, or those who aren't sure but are skeptical. Either way, there will be 'proof' one way or another, so I tend to not worry about it too much.

quote:So does it really matter whether a God created us or if we sprung from a vaccuum? To Christians yes, it does. Very much so. In reality, it matters to all people of faith. In my humble opinion, it SHOULD matter to all people NOT of faith too... It is the belief that the "Designer" is not just an ambivalent divine kid with an ant farm, but is deeply vested and concerned for us that makes the difference for those who see a difference. If someone believes in a Creator, but believes HE/SHE/IT is utterly indifferent to our existence, then to them, there probably is no perceivable difference. As far as purpose, there IS no purpose in chaos. Chaos is the very antithesis of purpose, and thus with purpose and those who strive for purpose frankly detest chaos.

Keep talking like that and I'll be forced to beat up your laser blasts with my ship's hull!

Lol!

I guess they don't believe in justice in Spain then? The man was personally responsible for the death of an innocent young woman and got off scott free. Sometimes I wonder what planet you're from...

Lol! Yeah, I guess I spend far too much time among those heathens!

Im gonna vote Alone in the Dark if I can. Or should I vote House of the Dead?

quote:If Teddy would have died during this salvaging attempt, he would now be honored as an hero, despite the fact that his action was obviously ineffective. Well, to me, if he would have died then I would say justice had finally been done after all of these years. Disgraceful.

Well, I was talking about what has happened up 'til now, but you're right. These times are so volatile there's no telling what's around the corner...

Let's be realistic. Impeachment isn't even a remote possibility.

Well, I pray for guidance in all things as well. What does that make me?

Wow! Thow guys have stayed on topic and mostly civil - amazing!

Sorry, I didn't realize. Then it's pretty shameful. And I thought he was conservative...

quote:Bush is inviting runaway inflation to our country which will undermine our economy in the long term. There is no excuse whatsoever for the gross abuses of our budget. Well, setting aside the cost of TWO simultaneous wars, you are correct. Some of the stuff he has signed is utterly wasteful.

How can any self-respecting gamer NOT go see the DOOM movie? I mean, c'mon... it's DOOM!!!! I'm there opening day as well.

You'll just have to show 'em when BC Next Gen is released!

It's sabotage I tell you!

Well, the only reason I mentioned it is because the new 2.5 version of America's Army came out yesterday. (Oh, and it's damn good, too... )

quote: Considering that my IQ is higher than Einstein's and given that all I've got to show for it is this board (not some Earth shattering fancy equation) I'd say that the IQ tests are probably rigged and that someone should sue and take it all the way to the Supreme Court. Well that just proves that Einstein would have made an excellent Fleet Commander in UC:AWA. He would totally "pwn' all of us!!