Guest GZ Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 Greetings all. My first post in the world of BC.I'm an old gamer from way back. I've seen and owned a lot of great games and gaming gadgets that have come along ranging from PONG through to the GeForce3. I say this not to big note myself, rather to hopefully gain my opinions some credibility. One of my fondest gaming memories is the months of my life that I lost while absorbed in ELITE on my old C64. When the AMIGA version came out with the wire models coloured in solid I nearly wet myself.About a week ago I saw the link in Gamespy weekly to a free full version of BC3K and thought, "yeah I'll check it out...I’m bored” Until then I still wondered if a space shooter/sim would ever outclass ELITE for shear game play and freedom. For many years, unknown to me, such a game already existed. A game that made ELITE look like a game of Solitaire. How I let BC3K slip me by I’ll never know. It’s a mystery. Firstly, the amazing history of BC3K had me engrossed before I'd even installed it. I then gained a clue as to the premise and substance of the game having spent hours reading the manual. At this point I already knew the game was good.My first impression after launching BC3K was “Oh my God! How could an old DOS game still be so appealing in this day and age? Amazing” The bridge design with my crew suspended in chairs all around me, and the constant background chatter had me immersed in the atmosphere of the game immediately. The feel inside an Interceptor was pleasing and clearly different to the Battlecruiser, even the though the flight models seemed similar. The general playability of the game was awesome. I felt like I was actually “there”.I’d lost a week of my life to the old DOS version before I knew it. Better check out these BCM demos I thought. My level of excitement over the potential of BCM (before seeing it) had me up nights. I hadn’t felt this way about an upcoming release in a long, long time. Maybe ever. (Warning: Whinging and whining alert.) My first impression after playing the second BCM demo was “Oh my God! Where has all the atmosphere gone? What the hell type of craft am I sitting in?”. I needed to hit F8 to find out! The flight model for an extremely large craft is much better, but the lack of a bridge overlay and crew chatter left me feeling like I was alone in space. I certainly did not feel like I was on the bridge of a Battlecruiser.Yes, the interface looks a lot better, the 3D graphics are awesome and the FPS element is looking interesting too. In fact, almost every aspect of the game is significantly better, but the atmosphere? Gone.For me there are two critical elements that make a classic sim:1. The Gameplay. 2. The Immersion factor.By immersion I mean, “How much does the game make you believe that you are actually there?” A high immersion factor can cause a gamer to think about a game all day long, even when they’re not playing it. Gameplay is critical, but alone it cannot achieve this. It’s as much to do with the atmosphere of the game, and can be partly the result of finishing touches like artwork, believable cockpits & bridge overlays, good voice acting, etc. Games can have beautiful graphics, accurate physics and game play depth, but without atmosphere and the immersion factor they have no long-term appeal.I cannot describe how I feel right now. Very, very flat is the best I can come up with. My excitement for BCM has been significantly reduced. Sure, I’ll probably buy it and play it for a bit, but without atmosphere I’ll probably shelve it soon after.Derek I beg you, for the sake of the gaming world, do not overlook this immersion factor I mention. Get the bridge overlays back. Get craft cockpits back. Get the incessant chatter on the busy bridge back. Get the soul of BC3K back!Anyway, I apologise for the whinge but I felt that this really needed to be said. I’m off to play my new love, BC3K.
Eclipse Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 Bridge Chatter was in there for awhile, but I don't know when, why, or if it disappeared... I will say I haven't noticed it recently though.
Guest GZ Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 Just as a foot note to my long rant: I do realise that it's too late to include things like this in the initial release, but the enhancements to the feel of the game that I mentioned above should be seriously considered for the first patch or add-on.I'll shut up now [ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: GZ ]
Guest Hellbinder[CE] Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 quote:I cannot describe how I feel right now. Very, very flat is the best I can come up with. My excitement for BCM has been significantly reduced. Sure, I’ll probably buy it and play it for a bit, but without atmosphere I’ll probably shelve it soon after You cant be serious.First, This is a demo, a DEMO. Not the full version. You are going to gauge the immersion factor of BCM on the Bitmaped bridge from the FULL BC3K game and a few missing sounds from the E2 DEMO? This is not even the real demo. that comes out AFTER the full game gets released. heck there are about 1,000,000 things missing from the demo.I guess that old bitmap is pretty important compared to the multitude of races, castes, careers, planet systems, moons, cities, starbases, 30+ vehicles and ships, about 200 trade items, pirates, vastly improved graphics, completey dynamic nature of a fully populated galaxy, First person mode on planets and in space, Realistic Terrain system ect, 16 player multiplayer online games...Yes im sure that BCM will get real boring after just a few hours...ho-hum...Id better get a real game like Pole Position. now that game had some atmosphere
Eclipse Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 Calm down Hellbinder. There is nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion. In fact there was quite a fuss over the idea of losing the bridge and other cockpits early in the beta. As it is now the bitmap really isn't missed that much though there are a few other things that might be nice to do in it's place.
Wolferz Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 GZ,Just you wait my friend. You want immersion?You're going to drown in it. In BC3K, I always turn off the cockpit/bridge graphics. This provides a better view of what is about to expose my crew and I to the vacuum of space. Usually in many pieces.
Guest GZ Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Hellbinder[CE]: You are going to gauge the immersion factor of BCM on the Bitmaped bridge from the FULL BC3K game and a few missing sounds from the E2 DEMO? It's not specifically the bridge bitmap that I long for. It's a differentiation between different craft that I think is important. For instance, the Interceptor cockpit in BC3K helps make me feel like I'm in a small and nimble fighter, and clearly seperates the feel of an Interceptor from any other craft. If the smaller vehicles in BCM had cockpits then I think I could live without the bridge bitmap.
Guest Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 quote:Originally posted by GZ: If the smaller vehicles in BCM had cockpits then I think I could live without the bridge bitmap.Which is exactly the problem, due to the multitude of small craft now playable - all of the fighters, plus the ground vehicles. The time it would take to do all of these bitmaps - as well as the money for what is essentially in indie production - would make it unfeasible.
Joaquin Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 GZ,We've been all over this before. I too am a proponent of the immersion factor. DeSylva's point is basically the problem. However, as we have all seen in the past, Derek will keep this in mind. He may not act on it, but its been logged. The game has to get out to the shelves so he can make some money, bottom line. After that, who know what may happen. He is notorious for patches with new features. You may want to take a look at the GCO threads.Sound is an effective way to provide immersion. One of the things that really struck me about Star Wars was that background rumble of the ships. It stayed with me until I got into the car. Fired her up and took off. Hehe.[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: Joaquin ][ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: Joaquin ]
Guest Hellbinder[CE] Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 I Suspect that cockpits will be released in a patch somtime after release.But seriously. The WHOLE GAME is pure immersion. Maybe because I am a "newbie" I just dont understand what im missing. I, however think that the game is pure immersion. all the sounds and bridge chatter will probably be in the final release. And i agree that it does add to the "coolness" of the game.You have to remember that the BC3K game that you downloaded as been getting enhancements and facelifts for the last 3 years. from what I have read, SC always add's and add's to his game once released.
Menchise Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 The bridge chatter IS in the demos. It's difficult to notice with the background music playing, but I can still hear the bridge chatter.
aramike Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 1: Yep, the bridge chatter is in there.2: I can see both sides of the story when it comes to the bridge background. Personally, it doesn't affect me in any way regarding BC games. I never really thought much of it in the BC3K and I don't miss it at all in BCM.However, I also do see why people liked the old view. I remember when I first played WC3 on the 3DO (anyone remember that?). I loved the cockpit in that game, as it really did lend some atmosphere.Then I played it for the Playstation. Cockpit was gone, and it did have an impact on the game. But, after awhile, I didn't really miss it.IOW, you'll probably get used to it within short notice. It just takes time. Oh, and don't worry -- the immersion is there.
Supreme Cmdr Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 Great arguments all around.Just going to confirm a few items already echoed by my all-knowing BC vets bridge chatter is there. You won't hear it unless you go into CONFIG and turned down the music volume and up the sound volume. The chatter voices is playing at a low volume in order to prevent it from being annoying.At over $250 a pop, send me a check for $250x65 (58 crafts + 7 vehicles) and I'll have them done post-release. Of course, doing that many, will take about 6-8 months, easy.I have NO plans atm, to embark on this venture. Not for BCM. Not for GCO.There is an icon on the lower-right corner of HUD which tells you which craft you are sitting in. And if you have to be reminded of which craft you're in....well then.If you need cockpits to convey immersion, you've got issues man And to compare a FULL game (BC3K free) to a demo, is just ludicrous. You should download and play the BC3K demo, in order to make that sort of comparison.
Guest Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 Whew, man, He got off easy.The SC must have gotten his coffee and been having a killer day!!
Soback Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 I like the way SC uses the word "ludicrous" and that after his post the topic is pretty much shut down and people start ranting about different things.
Scrivener Posted August 3, 2001 Report Posted August 3, 2001 Well, GZ, if you find that you just can't shake that cockpit fetish then perhaps you should look into Star Trek: Bridge Commander. I diden't really notice any of these issues. I, however, will just cross my fingers and hope that GCO ship interiors will be modeled. The thought of running a Battlecruiser with all my best buds... gives me shivers. I wont hold my breath, but there is always hope, yeah?
Epsilon 5 Posted August 4, 2001 Report Posted August 4, 2001 Ship interiors is very near to the top of my gco wishlist.
Guest GZ Posted August 4, 2001 Report Posted August 4, 2001 Most of the rubbish I have bought lately has left me wasting more time writing bug reports to the developers than actually playing the games. B-17 anybody? After that all I ever see or hear is the BS email bot reply.Derek Smart (am I suppose to refer to him as SC from now on?) has single handedly restored my faith in the gaming industry. I'm shocked and amazed that SC while in the final stages of finishing a game would take the time to reply to comments made by an insignificant BC newbie like myself. Fantastic. quote:Originally posted by Supreme Cmdr: 1. bridge chatter is there. You won't hear it unless you go into CONFIG and turned down the music volume and up the sound volume. The chatter voices is playing at a low volume in order to prevent it from being annoying. Glad to hear it! quote:2. At over $250 a pop, send me a check for $250x65 (58 crafts + 7 vehicles) and I'll have them done post-release. Of course, doing that many, will take about 6-8 months, easy.I have NO plans atm, to embark on this venture. Not for BCM. Not for GCO. I totally respect your position on this matter. I only wish I was a rich man. If I were the cheque would already be in the mail.If one was to group certain similar craft together to share cockpit views, would it be possible to reduce the number needed down to around 15?Secondly, how easy/difficult will it be for the clever people (not me) in our community to create these sorts of things later as 3rd party add-ons? quote:3. There is an icon on the lower-right corner of HUD which tells you which craft you are sitting in. And if you have to be reminded of which craft you're in....well then.4. If you need cockpits to convey immersion, you've got issues man Fair comment. Maybe I should just take one of my little pink pills and have nap I guess in the old days of gaming our own imaginations were used to fill in the gaps left by vertex graphics and blocky 2D sprites etc, but in this day and age we get spoilt.Sometimes it's hard to go back. If I hadn't seen the bridge and the cockpits I wouldn't have known what I was missing.It's like the old argument over the merits of Movies vs Books. When reading a book we create our own visuals in our heads, but watching a Movie it's all laid out for us.Statistically it seems most of us watch more Movies than we read Books these days. Perhaps sad, but true. quote:5. And to compare a FULL game (BC3K free) to a demo, is just ludicrous. You should download and play the BC3K demo, in order to make that sort of comparison. I must apologise if it sounded like I was comparing a beta with a fully patched release. I would never intentionally do that. This is why you won't hear me nitpicking over any small gameplay issues.I only commented on this matter because I believed it was an issue that would be carried over into the full release unchanged.Thanks for every ones comments, and keep up the great work SC and team.[ 08-03-2001: Message edited by: GZ ]
Soback Posted August 4, 2001 Report Posted August 4, 2001 If the bridge view costs $250 a pop, how much do you think an internal modeling of the ship would cost so that you could walk around in it?
Guest Commander Hamblin Posted August 5, 2001 Report Posted August 5, 2001 Why not a single Bridge for each ship, a single Cockpit for each fighter, and a single cockpit for each ground vehicle? I don't think anyone will care too much if they each have a generic thing like that, and if they don't like it, they just switch it off. quote:At over $250 a pop, send me a check for $250x65 (58 crafts + 7 vehicles) and I'll have them done post-release. Of course, doing that many, will take about 6-8 months, easySure thing.*Gets out a whole bunch of pennies*That's one, two, three... quote:Secondly, how easy/difficult will it be for the clever people (not me) in our community to create these sorts of things later as 3rd party add-ons?You know, I was thinking the exact same thing, and if you weren't going to mention it, I was (thank God you did, I'm one lazy SOB).But in any case, for the BC at least, the ol' Bridge bitmap could just me thrown on there, and the same goes for the Interceptor mk2, and if it's still there, the ol' ATV.But since it's already been established that third party mods for BCM are possible, then the idea has merit, and it's definitely one I'd like to see.
Supreme Cmdr Posted August 5, 2001 Report Posted August 5, 2001 quote:But since it's already been established that third party mods for BCM are possible, then the idea has merit, and it's definitely one I'd like to see.It has zero merit because there is no code to support the loading of cockpit bitmaps. Also, even if there was, EVERYTHING on the current bridge/cockpit would have to be relocated in order to fit around whatever bitmap framework is used.
Kush Posted August 6, 2001 Report Posted August 6, 2001 Hmmm, seems to me that it's not impossible, just very difficult.I thought I'd add my 0.02 to the fray.It's funny, I too will miss the cockpit bitmap, but even that wasn't enough. There's a part of me that wants a 3d cockpit that I can walk around, talk to fellow officers, etc. etc. The danger of this kind of game, and something I don't think anyone has brought up yet is that when you tantalize us with this much depth, all we want is more. Not only do I want bridge chatter, I want to hear the same kind of bickering that happened between Bones and Spock. It would be great if when you land on some exotic planet, the finest, most beautiful alien woman would fall madly in love with you. It would be great if you could have a smell o rama device that would pump out the smells of a bridge of a ship. You could smell the burning circuitry of a damaged ship console. Bridge bitmap? Sure, okay. But Derek, if you could work out Tribble infestation into the code, that would ROCK!
Cmdr Nova Posted August 6, 2001 Report Posted August 6, 2001 Give 'em an inch, they take (or at least want) a mile... LOL, good one, Kush![ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Cmdr Nova ]
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